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Steve Bartman
06-26-2003, 11:17 AM
What the hell was prof. chaos thinking trading all-star second baseman for JOHN ADKINS :angry: Now with the chairman's budget forget about ever getting a quality middle infielder.

pudge
06-26-2003, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by Cubsloseagain911
What the hell was prof. chaos thinking trading all-star second baseman for JOHN ADKINS :angry: Now with the chairman's budget forget about ever getting a quality middle infielder.

Ya know, this is a huge point. He was one of our best OBP men. I honestly think we'd have 2-3 more victories this season with Ray in the lineup. And 2-3 would mean we'd only be a couple games back instead of 5.5. It sucks being a Sox fan.

Hangar18
06-26-2003, 01:30 PM
I miss Ray Durham. I knew this would hurt us in the long run.
We need a Solid Fielder, we need a guy with Speed, WE need
a guy with some Pop In his bat, We need a guy that can bat
at the Top of our Lineup. YEah, tall order, in other words we
need to go out and get 4 more players for our team. Or we
couldve just kept Durham. We lose the guy for a 2nd rate
pitcher, A's get him, let him leave for the Giants via F.A., and
the A's GET THE DRAFT PICK BECAUSE OF THIS.....great move.

TornLabrum
06-26-2003, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
I miss Ray Durham. I knew this would hurt us in the long run.
We need a Solid Fielder, we need a guy with Speed, WE need
a guy with some Pop In his bat, We need a guy that can bat
at the Top of our Lineup. YEah, tall order, in other words we
need to go out and get 4 more players for our team. Or we
couldve just kept Durham. We lose the guy for a 2nd rate
pitcher, A's get him, let him leave for the Giants via F.A., and
the A's GET THE DRAFT PICK BECAUSE OF THIS.....great move.

But we got the great Jon Adkins!

Kilroy
06-26-2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by Cubsloseagain911
What the hell was prof. chaos thinking trading all-star second baseman for JOHN ADKINS :angry: Now with the chairman's budget forget about ever getting a quality middle infielder.

I'll tell you what he was thinking:


:KW

"I'm not paying 7 mil for Ray Durham. Our fans think he can't go to his right to save his mother, and there's times during the season where he steps in the batter's box and gets awakened by the first pitch wizzing by."

kevingrt
06-26-2003, 02:38 PM
I went to the first game of that San Francisco series and gave him a standing ovation along with a good amount of other knowledgeable Sox fans.

Jon Adkins, we'll be lucky if he gets into the starting rotation in 2005!

SoxxoS
06-26-2003, 02:51 PM
Jon Adkins has been pitching lights out at Charlotte.

Hangar18
06-26-2003, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Jon Adkins has been pitching lights out at Charlotte.

Really? is he Lights Out as in hes getting lucky against minor leaguers, or Lights Out as in we may have Gotten Away with
a Pretty Decent Pitcher who will Contribute Significantly in the
near Future??

spanishwhite
06-26-2003, 03:20 PM
Adkins is shaky.

His ERA was up over 7 again, but

then he threw something like 28 consecutive
scoreless innings so now its in the low 4s.

He has a complete game shutout and a save?

He's an enigma.

Just like our very own sox.

I think that he could be a lights out reliever, but
KW likes to force relievers into being starters
(ie the Glover experiment)

gosox41
06-26-2003, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by Cubsloseagain911
What the hell was prof. chaos thinking trading all-star second baseman for JOHN ADKINS :angry: Now with the chairman's budget forget about ever getting a quality middle infielder.

The funny thing is it seemed like the Sox wanted Ray gone. What I don't get is if they looked at Konerko's stats compared to other first basemen and then looked at Ray's comapred to secondbasemen they would have seen what a smart move it would have been to keep Durham and trade Konerko.

Instead Konerko gets $24 mill over 3 years, and if I'm not mistaken Ray gets $18 mil. over three years. I thing they signed about the same time this offseason.

It would be too much for the Sox to see Konerko wasn't going to get any better then last year and break up the four right handed hitters in the line up by moving him and applying that money to Ray.

Thanks again Kenny. Any time you want to make a coherent move as the team's GM is fine with me.

Bob

harwar
06-26-2003, 05:57 PM
Frank Thomas and Ray Durham were(and still are) my favorite White Sox players.I don't care what uniform the guy wears,i still love the guy.I guess he was just too expensive for KW.Who said that for years he wanted to get Jimenez,who is really good at working the count and is the worst baserunner that i've ever seen.

Gumshoe
06-26-2003, 06:01 PM
I like Ray Durham a bit, but he was average AT BEST defensively, and we weren't going to win with him. Sometimes he didn't even try for balls to the right side (Seattle series). He also made a costly error when JB was pitching in that Seattle series. We weren't going to win with Ray, especially at his overrated tag. I'd definitely go with Graf or D Jimenez over Ray, no questions asked. If you talk about defense, you can't even mention Ray Durham's name. Besides loop shots over his head which he was great at, he was a BRUTAL defender.

Gumshoe

gosox41
06-26-2003, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
I like Ray Durham a bit, but he was average AT BEST defensively, and we weren't going to win with him. Sometimes he didn't even try for balls to the right side (Seattle series). He also made a costly error when JB was pitching in that Seattle series. We weren't going to win with Ray, especially at his overrated tag. I'd definitely go with Graf or D Jimenez over Ray, no questions asked. If you talk about defense, you can't even mention Ray Durham's name. Besides loop shots over his head which he was great at, he was a BRUTAL defender.

Gumshoe

Bottom line is who creates more runs, Ray or Jimenez. It's the Oakland A theory of getting guys who can get on base a lot and worry about the defense later. Durham has his faults defensively, but he more then made up for them with his offense.

OBP SLG OPS
Jimenez .333 .418 .752
Durham .406 .429 .835
R. Alomar .343 .368 .711

These are 2003 stats. Now if you want to think Ray is a louse defensive player and DJ dances circles around him, fine. But certainly the difference of .083 in OPS as well as the fact that Durham is not nearly as bad a baserunner (even less outs created) as Jimenez make up for any defensive shortcomings you may think Ray has.

Ray wasn't that bad defensively either.

Bob

TornLabrum
06-26-2003, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
The funny thing is it seemed like the Sox wanted Ray gone. What I don't get is if they looked at Konerko's stats compared to other first basemen and then looked at Ray's comapred to secondbasemen they would have seen what a smart move it would have been to keep Durham and trade Konerko.

Instead Konerko gets $24 mill over 3 years, and if I'm not mistaken Ray gets $18 mil. over three years. I thing they signed about the same time this offseason.

It would be too much for the Sox to see Konerko wasn't going to get any better then last year and break up the four right handed hitters in the line up by moving him and applying that money to Ray.

Thanks again Kenny. Any time you want to make a coherent move as the team's GM is fine with me.

Bob

Here's the logic: Konerko was a "fan favorite." Plus, Prof. Chaos owed him for his comments on Thomas last year.

gosox41
06-26-2003, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Here's the logic: Konerko was a "fan favorite." Plus, Prof. Chaos owed him for his comments on Thomas last year.

I wouldn't put it past them. It's just like the Sox to make player personnel moves on public opinion and internal politics.

Bob

RKMeibalane
06-26-2003, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
I wouldn't put it past them. It's just like the Sox to make player personnel moves on public opinion and internal politics.

Bob

That may have had something to do with it. Durham and Thomas were friends, from what I've heard. Since Williams wanted to run Frank out of town, it isn't the least bit surprising that he would trade one of Frank's friends.

Meanwhile, as all of this goes on, Jerry Reinsdorf sits in his private box and does nothing.

gosox41
06-26-2003, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
That may have had something to do with it. Durham and Thomas were friends, from what I've heard. Since Williams wanted to run Frank out of town, it isn't the least bit surprising that he would trade one of Frank's friends.

Meanwhile, as all of this goes on, Jerry Reinsdorf sits in his private box and does nothing.

:reinsy
My people made a personnel move today. They got me Kirk Hinrich. Oh you mean the White Sox...I here KW is trying to pull off the first cross sport trade. It's a 3 way deal involving the Bears and the Bulls. Hinrich will become a member of the Sox, and all Kenny has to give up is the low price of Rauch to the Bulls and Borchard to the Bears. Because the Bears are the Bears they don't need to give up anything. That Kenny is a genius isn't he???

WhiteSox = Life
06-26-2003, 09:54 PM
:reinsy
"And, I'm the genius for employing him and keeping him around, despite the cries of every single White Sox fan. But then again, why should I care what those who are at fault think? 'Let he who is without fault cast the first stone,' right? Who said that? Bud Selig?"

TornLabrum
06-26-2003, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
That may have had something to do with it. Durham and Thomas were friends, from what I've heard. Since Williams wanted to run Frank out of town, it isn't the least bit surprising that he would trade one of Frank's friends.

Meanwhile, as all of this goes on, Jerry Reinsdorf sits in his private box and does nothing.

Yes, they are friends, so that very well may have had something to do with it.

guillen4life13
06-27-2003, 11:48 AM
I'm going to play devil's advocate here (even though I'm still in agreement with all of you):

The Sox needed(or wanted) to dump payroll, and Ray probably expected a nice sized contract for next year. If you look at it realistically, if we kept Ray, I don't think we'd have Colon because of the money issues. And if you're trading someone midway through the last year of his contract, you cannot expect to recieve much in return. That's just the nature of the business.

gosox41
06-27-2003, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
I'm going to play devil's advocate here (even though I'm still in agreement with all of you):

The Sox needed(or wanted) to dump payroll, and Ray probably expected a nice sized contract for next year. If you look at it realistically, if we kept Ray, I don't think we'd have Colon because of the money issues. And if you're trading someone midway through the last year of his contract, you cannot expect to recieve much in return. That's just the nature of the business.

This thread might get repetitive but here goes:

1. Why not trade Konerko midseason last year? Anyone can see he's average at best offensively. If not then, he should have been traded during the offseason instead of paying him all that cash.

3. If the Sox knew they couldn't get anything for Ray, why not hold on to him and get the draft picks. Sure it was a risk, but Billy Beane correctly figured that if the owners got some sort of luxury tax they'd not push for many changes in the CBA. Too bad KW doesn't have the ability to think through different scenarios. Considering the Sox paid half of Durham's remaining salary means the Sox didn't even save that much cash to begin with.


Bob

guillen4life13
06-28-2003, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
This thread might get repetitive but here goes:

1. Why not trade Konerko midseason last year? Anyone can see he's average at best offensively. If not then, he should have been traded during the offseason instead of paying him all that cash.

3. If the Sox knew they couldn't get anything for Ray, why not hold on to him and get the draft picks. Sure it was a risk, but Billy Beane correctly figured that if the owners got some sort of luxury tax they'd not push for many changes in the CBA. Too bad KW doesn't have the ability to think through different scenarios. Considering the Sox paid half of Durham's remaining salary means the Sox didn't even save that much cash to begin with.


Bob

I'm still playing devil's advocate throughout this post until I say otherwise.

Be honest about this here. Who in the world would have thought that Paul Konerko would be hitting under .200 at this point of the season? On top of that, last year, Konerko was a fan favorite because of his showing up Frank, as well as being the primary leader of the team. Ray didn't have that appeal. I'm not saying the deal was right... I'm saying that from a PR perspective, this was the logical decision.

One thing I'm having trouble understanding is this: Last year, besides Royce and Ritchie, Durham was probably tied for being the most criticized member of the team last year (on these message boards, and he was tied with Thomas). Konerko got his whacks on these message boards for showing up Thomas like that, but there were also a great deal of people supporting Konerko's decision to go public with such statements.

Ray got a lot of heat for not being a true leadoff hitter, or a true 2nd spot hitter, and for always trying to hit home runs.

Right now in San Francisco, he's hitting in the 3 hole. Remember the midseason of 2001? Do you remember that the Sox started to finally win when Ray started hitting in the 3rd spot? Remember how he caught fire in there? I guess Felipe Alou was smart enough to realize that, but also, if Durham's in the 3 spot this year here, where would Frank hit? Maggs has to be the cleanup hitter (he is the best option we would have there), and I don't think Frank (with the way he's playing), is best suited for the 5th spot in the order.

I know KW's made a huge amount of mistakes, but when you look at everything (or when I look at everything), what was done made more sense than trading Konerko.

And you all know this to be true, so don't lie: If Paulie was traded last year, unless we recieved someone as young and talented as him ((Austin Kearns, or even Corey Patterson) or someone who's had prolonged success at the major league level, and still has a few years on his contract, WSI would have been calling for KW's head... (not that they wouldn't have anyways, but this would have been much worse). And by players who've had prolonged success, I mean players like Carlos Delgade (who had a down year at 102 RBI), Luis Castillo (Fills 2B, and is capable of leading off), Jon Olerud (maybe... I don't know if he's the calibre any more), or Roberto Alomar (Fills 2B, but then throws the batting order into a weird situation, and he was in the middle of a downyear, so it could have been possible). And even recieving those people at that time would have been questionable because they were either having down years, or are past their prime.

I know that these moves have blown up in our face, but the reality is that they were logical at the time of the transaction. No one (that's right, NO ONE!) could have been able to accurately predict what has happened this season. And since Ray was in the last year of the contract, he couldn't be traded for more.

MHOUSE
06-28-2003, 11:37 AM
At the time of the trade Konerko was on fire, he's a fan favorite, and he was taking a role as clubhouse leader. Everyone was on the PK bandwagon. Who would've known that he was going to falter and now be benched by the same time a year later. Hindsight is 20/20.

gosox41
06-28-2003, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
At the time of the trade Konerko was on fire, he's a fan favorite, and he was taking a role as clubhouse leader. Everyone was on the PK bandwagon. Who would've known that he was going to falter and now be benched by the same time a year later. Hindsight is 20/20.

If you have the time, please go back and read my posts back on the day Konerko was signed to the extension.

Of course I didn't expect Paulie to be this bad. But I did say THE DAY HE WAS SIGNED that he was being highly overpaid and was nothing but an average offensive player when compared to other 1B in the AL.

I said it then, If Paulie has a monster second half, I'll still stand by that comment. IMHO, a team with limited resources should not be overpaying for an average player because he's popular with the fans and called out Frank.

At least Frank's got class. He let the comments go instead of airing dirty laundry.

Bob

gosox41
06-28-2003, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
I'm still playing devil's advocate throughout this post until I say otherwise.

Be honest about this here. Who in the world would have thought that Paul Konerko would be hitting under .200 at this point of the season? On top of that, last year, Konerko was a fan favorite because of his showing up Frank, as well as being the primary leader of the team. Ray didn't have that appeal. I'm not saying the deal was right... I'm saying that from a PR perspective, this was the logical decision.

One thing I'm having trouble understanding is this: Last year, besides Royce and Ritchie, Durham was probably tied for being the most criticized member of the team last year (on these message boards, and he was tied with Thomas). Konerko got his whacks on these message boards for showing up Thomas like that, but there were also a great deal of people supporting Konerko's decision to go public with such statements.

Ray got a lot of heat for not being a true leadoff hitter, or a true 2nd spot hitter, and for always trying to hit home runs.

Right now in San Francisco, he's hitting in the 3 hole. Remember the midseason of 2001? Do you remember that the Sox started to finally win when Ray started hitting in the 3rd spot? Remember how he caught fire in there? I guess Felipe Alou was smart enough to realize that, but also, if Durham's in the 3 spot this year here, where would Frank hit? Maggs has to be the cleanup hitter (he is the best option we would have there), and I don't think Frank (with the way he's playing), is best suited for the 5th spot in the order.

I know KW's made a huge amount of mistakes, but when you look at everything (or when I look at everything), what was done made more sense than trading Konerko.

And you all know this to be true, so don't lie: If Paulie was traded last year, unless we recieved someone as young and talented as him ((Austin Kearns, or even Corey Patterson) or someone who's had prolonged success at the major league level, and still has a few years on his contract, WSI would have been calling for KW's head... (not that they wouldn't have anyways, but this would have been much worse). And by players who've had prolonged success, I mean players like Carlos Delgade (who had a down year at 102 RBI), Luis Castillo (Fills 2B, and is capable of leading off), Jon Olerud (maybe... I don't know if he's the calibre any more), or Roberto Alomar (Fills 2B, but then throws the batting order into a weird situation, and he was in the middle of a downyear, so it could have been possible). And even recieving those people at that time would have been questionable because they were either having down years, or are past their prime.

I know that these moves have blown up in our face, but the reality is that they were logical at the time of the transaction. No one (that's right, NO ONE!) could have been able to accurately predict what has happened this season. And since Ray was in the last year of the contract, he couldn't be traded for more.

First, the Sox could have gotten more for Konerko then Jon Adkins. You admitted that when you said Durham was hard to trade because he was in the last year of his contract. Was Paul hard to trade because he wa asrbitration eligible?

I never expeted Paul to be so bad, I just thought at the time of the signing he was being overpaid for an eaverage offensive 2B.

I was not a member of this site until September 2002 so I didn't see all the Durham and Thomas bashing and the Konerko lovefest. All that shows is how little people understand the game and how to value players because they're fan favorites or challege Frank.

I am a proud member of the Frank Thomas fan club that was started last winter on this site, look it up. I never wanted Frank to go and thought Paul was wrong for calling Frank out. Gues you reap what you sow.

As for Durham, I never wanted to trade him even if he was leaving as a FA. It was worth the risk of 2 draft picks then getting a 24 year old injured AAA pitcher with a 6.00ERA.

The fact that these moves have blown up in our face shows how little Sox managment knows about how to build a winning team. Too much emotion and incompetence. And even the diehards buy into it. I wonder how many of those Konerko lovers and Thomas haters have switched sides thsi season.

Bob

guillen4life13
06-28-2003, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
First, the Sox could have gotten more for Konerko then Jon Adkins. You admitted that when you said Durham was hard to trade because he was in the last year of his contract. Was Paul hard to trade because he wa asrbitration eligible?

I never expeted Paul to be so bad, I just thought at the time of the signing he was being overpaid for an eaverage offensive 2B.

I was not a member of this site until September 2002 so I didn't see all the Durham and Thomas bashing and the Konerko lovefest. All that shows is how little people understand the game and how to value players because they're fan favorites or challege Frank.

I am a proud member of the Frank Thomas fan club that was started last winter on this site, look it up. I never wanted Frank to go and thought Paul was wrong for calling Frank out. Gues you reap what you sow.

As for Durham, I never wanted to trade him even if he was leaving as a FA. It was worth the risk of 2 draft picks then getting a 24 year old injured AAA pitcher with a 6.00ERA.

The fact that these moves have blown up in our face shows how little Sox managment knows about how to build a winning team. Too much emotion and incompetence. And even the diehards buy into it. I wonder how many of those Konerko lovers and Thomas haters have switched sides thsi season.

Bob

As I had said earlier... I'm only playing devil's advocate, and I think I've made a good case, but I don't know if you understood, or thoroughly read my previous post in full.

Although I didn't blatantly say it out loud, I made what I thought to be obvious implications of the bandwagon concept that you just mentioned. I'll be the first person to tell you that countless people have jumped wagons. And if you want to read my old posts, by all means go ahead. Last year, Konerko was carrying the team. Give him credit for that. And, as MHOUSE said... who would have thought Pauly would end up in this slump? And another thing I must say is that, while he is an average 1B, being an average 1B (on offense) almost automatically makes you a bigger offensive threat than most consistent All-Star position players that aren't first basemen. All in all, first base is almost definitely the most offensively loaded position. And, and I can only speak for myself here, although I know many people have echoed the same sentiments on these boards in the past: I honestly thought that Konerko had almost fully blossomed, and that he had reached his prime. He was 26 years old, which is around the time players reach their prime (give or take a couple years). I truly believed that his compiled stats for this season (and I posted such predictions in the past winter) would end up being as follows:

BA: .320-.330
HR: 35
RBI: 110


I know there were quite a few people who thought those numbers were pushing it a bit, but hardly anyone expected him to have an average under .300, and I don't remember anyone thinking he would have an average under .290.

So, at that time, Paul was a fan favorite, he was carrying the team for the majority of the season until Maggs heated up. Meanwhile, for the Sox last year, Durham started out hot, but, IIRC, he suffered a wrist injury that made his average drop. And then, as the deadline approached, he heated up again and brought his average up to .299 (that was his average at the time of the transaction). BUT, fans were getting on his case because of his "swing for the fences" attitude that, quite honestly, I don't think exists.

And KW made a stupid move by employing Gary Pettis to spy on the players and make reports like that. And everyone has the right to be pissed to high hell for that.

And, as I said earlier, there was no chance of getting anything good for Ray. And the point I was trying to make while rambling on about Paulie is that
a) he had just made his first All-Star game, and he looked like he was about to become the second coming of Frank Thomas (I vaguely remember a couple of articles with that exact theme) because he was putting up young Frank like numbers.

b) You trade someone like that (and I understand that you thought he would end up being an average hitter by 1B standards... fact is, the majority of people thought he was about to become one of the top tier 1B), then the fans, and players, would lose what little enthusiasm they had left for the team.

And remember this (I know you hadn't signed onto the boards yet, but hear me out):

Would you rather get a couple more prospects and bank on the future, like it seems this team has been doing for the last 80 some years, or would you think short term, and say, "Let's win this thing!"? Losing Konerko meant losing the leader, and, so it seemed, the top hitter on this team. And I don't think the Sox would have been able to land any of the guys I mentioned in my previous post for this year (Delgado, Olerud, etc.). They would have had to land someone who was almost guaranteed to put up the numbers Pauly put up last year. Taking an educated guess, who was the most likely person to put up those types of numbers, (being realistic)? You guessed it: Pauly himself. It's just this theory in application: "Don't fix it if it ain't broke."

I thoroughly believe that you didn't think Paul was going to sustain such numbers (even at that time), but you're the exception. The vast majority thought he had just broken out, and was going to be an All-Star calibre player for at least 5 years, if not more.

I said it earlier, but MHOUSE said it: Hindsight is always 20/20.

gosox41
06-29-2003, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
As I had said earlier... I'm only playing devil's advocate, and I think I've made a good case, but I don't know if you understood, or thoroughly read my previous post in full.

Although I didn't blatantly say it out loud, I made what I thought to be obvious implications of the bandwagon concept that you just mentioned. I'll be the first person to tell you that countless people have jumped wagons. And if you want to read my old posts, by all means go ahead. Last year, Konerko was carrying the team. Give him credit for that. And, as MHOUSE said... who would have thought Pauly would end up in this slump? And another thing I must say is that, while he is an average 1B, being an average 1B (on offense) almost automatically makes you a bigger offensive threat than most consistent All-Star position players that aren't first basemen. All in all, first base is almost definitely the most offensively loaded position. And, and I can only speak for myself here, although I know many people have echoed the same sentiments on these boards in the past: I honestly thought that Konerko had almost fully blossomed, and that he had reached his prime. He was 26 years old, which is around the time players reach their prime (give or take a couple years). I truly believed that his compiled stats for this season (and I posted such predictions in the past winter) would end up being as follows:

BA: .320-.330
HR: 35
RBI: 110


I know there were quite a few people who thought those numbers were pushing it a bit, but hardly anyone expected him to have an average under .300, and I don't remember anyone thinking he would have an average under .290.

So, at that time, Paul was a fan favorite, he was carrying the team for the majority of the season until Maggs heated up. Meanwhile, for the Sox last year, Durham started out hot, but, IIRC, he suffered a wrist injury that made his average drop. And then, as the deadline approached, he heated up again and brought his average up to .299 (that was his average at the time of the transaction). BUT, fans were getting on his case because of his "swing for the fences" attitude that, quite honestly, I don't think exists.

And KW made a stupid move by employing Gary Pettis to spy on the players and make reports like that. And everyone has the right to be pissed to high hell for that.

And, as I said earlier, there was no chance of getting anything good for Ray. And the point I was trying to make while rambling on about Paulie is that
a) he had just made his first All-Star game, and he looked like he was about to become the second coming of Frank Thomas (I vaguely remember a couple of articles with that exact theme) because he was putting up young Frank like numbers.

b) You trade someone like that (and I understand that you thought he would end up being an average hitter by 1B standards... fact is, the majority of people thought he was about to become one of the top tier 1B), then the fans, and players, would lose what little enthusiasm they had left for the team.

And remember this (I know you hadn't signed onto the boards yet, but hear me out):

Would you rather get a couple more prospects and bank on the future, like it seems this team has been doing for the last 80 some years, or would you think short term, and say, "Let's win this thing!"? Losing Konerko meant losing the leader, and, so it seemed, the top hitter on this team. And I don't think the Sox would have been able to land any of the guys I mentioned in my previous post for this year (Delgado, Olerud, etc.). They would have had to land someone who was almost guaranteed to put up the numbers Pauly put up last year. Taking an educated guess, who was the most likely person to put up those types of numbers, (being realistic)? You guessed it: Pauly himself. It's just this theory in application: "Don't fix it if it ain't broke."

I thoroughly believe that you didn't think Paul was going to sustain such numbers (even at that time), but you're the exception. The vast majority thought he had just broken out, and was going to be an All-Star calibre player for at least 5 years, if not more.

I said it earlier, but MHOUSE said it: Hindsight is always 20/20.


I don't have the numbers in front of me, and I have to leave soon, but Paul's OPS has been in about a .015-.020 range the last 4 years. He has not shown the improvement and comaring him to Frank at age 27 is night and day.

Also, in regards to trading a facorite player. I rememeber being upset wehn the Sox traded Hoyt after the 1984 season and more upset when he was starting the All Star game. But I'd say the prospect we got was well worth the trade. My point is the popular move (not trading Paul) isn't always the move that's going to give the team the best chance to win.

Bob

guillen4life13
06-29-2003, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
My point is the popular move (not trading Paul) isn't always the move that's going to give the team the best chance to win.

Bob

And to that statement, I agree wholeheartedly! :gulp:

JUGGERNAUT
06-29-2003, 01:05 PM
for not trading Paul & keeping Durham when that trade was made.

Paul was coming off of one of his fantasy JUNE months & his value was the highest it had been to date. Atlanta was interested & willing to give up a IF or CF prospect. But KW had a love affair with Paul & wouldn't give him up.

The best asset of Konehead was streak hitting : 2 fantasy months, 2 avg months, 2 bird dropping months.
He's Slownerko for a reason.

Whereas Durham had proven to be a much more versatile player with good speed. Even at 6mil/yr he brought more to the table than Blownerko.

Dealing Ray & tying up 24mil is right up their with Todd Ritchie in KW's worst blunders.

guillen4life13
06-29-2003, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by JUGGERNAUT
for not trading Paul & keeping Durham when that trade was made.

Paul was coming off of one of his fantasy JUNE months & his value was the highest it had been to date. Atlanta was interested & willing to give up a IF or CF prospect. But KW had a love affair with Paul & wouldn't give him up.

The best asset of Konehead was streak hitting : 2 fantasy months, 2 avg months, 2 bird dropping months.
He's Slownerko for a reason.

Whereas Durham had proven to be a much more versatile player with good speed. Even at 6mil/yr he brought more to the table than Blownerko.

Dealing Ray & tying up 24mil is right up their with Todd Ritchie in KW's worst blunders.

Whatever you say. I still stand by what I said earlier about the Durham trade having a big part of the reason Bartolo was acquired. It freed up a bit of money. Sure, Konerko (or as you call him, "Blownerko," or "Slownerko") would have brought back a better prize. But right now, I'm not looking for prospects. We wanted to finally stop saying "We'll get them tomorrow," and start saying, "Today's our day to kick your ass!"

But apparently some people don't see the reasoning behind what I've explained extensively in a couple of posts in this thread.

B. Diddy
06-29-2003, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Bottom line is who creates more runs, Ray or Jimenez. It's the Oakland A theory of getting guys who can get on base a lot and worry about the defense later. Durham has his faults defensively, but he more then made up for them with his offense.

OBP SLG OPS
Jimenez .333 .418 .752
Durham .406 .429 .835
R. Alomar .343 .368 .711

These are 2003 stats. Now if you want to think Ray is a louse defensive player and DJ dances circles around him, fine. But certainly the difference of .083 in OPS as well as the fact that Durham is not nearly as bad a baserunner (even less outs created) as Jimenez make up for any defensive shortcomings you may think Ray has.

Ray wasn't that bad defensively either.

Bob

Your OBP calculation for Durham is misleading because it only reflects this season. His career OBP prior to this season is only .351. That's pretty weak for a #1 or #2 hitter who's expecting $7 mil a year. And let's not forget the fact that his defense is average at best. He makes some great plays and botches some routine ones.

I agree that Jiminez isn't the answer, but I wouldn't pay Ray $7 mil a year. Not when I can spend it on pitching.

gosox41
06-30-2003, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
Whatever you say. I still stand by what I said earlier about the Durham trade having a big part of the reason Bartolo was acquired. It freed up a bit of money. Sure, Konerko (or as you call him, "Blownerko," or "Slownerko") would have brought back a better prize. But right now, I'm not looking for prospects. We wanted to finally stop saying "We'll get them tomorrow," and start saying, "Today's our day to kick your ass!"

But apparently some people don't see the reasoning behind what I've explained extensively in a couple of posts in this thread.

But if the Sox had decided to trade Konerko when Altanta wanted him and also decided to keep Durham, wouldn't that have freed up even more money to get Colon? Durham is getting paid $2 mill. less then Konerko.

Bob

Gumshoe
06-30-2003, 11:37 AM
Yes, that OBP number this year (.5 a season) with SF is a joke! SAme thing with Jimenez. YOu can't quantify them YET, but you can definitely see that D'Angelo gets more walks and that is far more important than what Ray does with his "I can't field a ball to my right" situation and his multimillion dollar salary. The FACT is, we never would have won with Ray Durham playing 2nd. He just isn't good enough defensively, and when you need to save money for other positions (did I mention he doesn't WALK) he is the first that has to go. Don't get me wrong, I think he's a good hitter, an average defender and has speed, but there's no way I pay 4 mil for him. NO WAY. I'm glad RAY RAY is gone. OVERRATED.

Gum

gosox41
06-30-2003, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Yes, that OBP number this year (.5 a season) with SF is a joke! SAme thing with Jimenez. YOu can't quantify them YET, but you can definitely see that D'Angelo gets more walks and that is far more important than what Ray does with his "I can't field a ball to my right" situation and his multimillion dollar salary. The FACT is, we never would have won with Ray Durham playing 2nd. He just isn't good enough defensively, and when you need to save money for other positions (did I mention he doesn't WALK) he is the first that has to go. Don't get me wrong, I think he's a good hitter, an average defender and has speed, but there's no way I pay 4 mil for him. NO WAY. I'm glad RAY RAY is gone. OVERRATED.

Gum

I disagree. Last year I thought Ray was the second best offensive second basemen in the AL. He gets on base a lot and he's definitely a smarter runner then Jimenez.

His fielding wasn't bad. He had great range.

So are you saying that at the time you agreed with the move of resigning Konerko for more money then Durham got and trading Durham? Look at it when the moves were made and ignore how Konerko and Durham have done this season. Is Konerko worth 33% more in salary then Durham or are Konerko's numbers easier to replace?

Bob

Gumshoe
06-30-2003, 04:01 PM
To say that he had great range is ridiculous too. I think we must totally differ on our view of defense. I'm not saying he was bad, but he was average and couldn't go up the middle. Against Seattle in the playoff series he made TONS of mistakes. He even just watched a ground ball by Rickey Henderson go through the infield without trying.

As for Konerko, I'm not worried, he'll hit again. Also, the office realized Durham wasn't in the equation anymore, and I agree. He's a good second baseman, don't get me wrong, I like him, but he's only worth about 1.5 MIL per year, in my opinion. It's possible that D'Angelo given time can be as good a hitter as Durham (probably won't happen, but he could be VERY good with a bit more power) and is a way better DEFENSIVE 2nd baseman. That's my opinion. We'll see what happens with Pauly. He'll be back.

I just hope we see what this team can do before we try to bring more more more guys in, man, they just started to play better, let's see what they can do!

G

gosox41
06-30-2003, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
To say that he had great range is ridiculous too. I think we must totally differ on our view of defense. I'm not saying he was bad, but he was average and couldn't go up the middle. Against Seattle in the playoff series he made TONS of mistakes. He even just watched a ground ball by Rickey Henderson go through the infield without trying.

As for Konerko, I'm not worried, he'll hit again. Also, the office realized Durham wasn't in the equation anymore, and I agree. He's a good second baseman, don't get me wrong, I like him, but he's only worth about 1.5 MIL per year, in my opinion. It's possible that D'Angelo given time can be as good a hitter as Durham (probably won't happen, but he could be VERY good with a bit more power) and is a way better DEFENSIVE 2nd baseman. That's my opinion. We'll see what happens with Pauly. He'll be back.

I just hope we see what this team can do before we try to bring more more more guys in, man, they just started to play better, let's see what they can do!

G

Just out of curiousity, how much is Konerko worth to you if you value Ray at $1.5 mill?

Bob

PaleHoseGeorge
06-30-2003, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
....As for Konerko, I'm not worried, he'll hit again. Also, the office realized Durham wasn't in the equation anymore, and I agree. He's a good second baseman, don't get me wrong, I like him, but he's only worth about 1.5 MIL per year, in my opinion. It's possible that D'Angelo given time can be as good a hitter as Durham (probably won't happen, but he could be VERY good with a bit more power) and is a way better DEFENSIVE 2nd baseman. That's my opinion. We'll see what happens with Pauly. He'll be back.

Gum, what makes you confident Konerko is going to start hitting again? I've been watching his game degenerate for a full-year now (not that his peak performance was anything special for A.L. firstbasemen) and I'm not nearly so sure.

guillen4life13
06-30-2003, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Just out of curiousity, how much is Konerko worth to you if you value Ray at $1.5 mill?

Bob

Well... now I know my opinion is somewhat dry on this one, but I think Ray is worth 1.5 million because I don't think there's a single baseball player who is worth more than 4 million. Now... since they're all greedy, that's not the case. Their greed equals us having to pay more for tickets and such.

No professional athlete should get to make more than 4 million dollars.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-30-2003, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
Well... now I know my opinion is somewhat dry on this one, but I think Ray is worth 1.5 million because I don't think there's a single baseball player who is worth more than 4 million. Now... since they're all greedy, that's not the case. Their greed equals us having to pay more for tickets and such.

No professional athlete should get to make more than 4 million dollars.

If we valued what individuals contribute to society, we would give the $1.5 million salaries to grade school teachers, police officers, and firefighters. That's not the world we live in.

If you want to see ballplayers getting paid a wage more in keeping with what they're worth to society, visit Schaumburg, Kane County, Joliet, Cook County, or Gary. The Tribune did a write up about minor league baseball in today's business section. Some of these teams have a $90,000 salary budget.

Unfortunately, economics get in the way of utopia. As any economist will tell you, there is no connection between the price of admission and the cost of the product (namely salaries). Baseball owners charge EXACTLY what the market will bear and not a penny more. To charge any less would make them fools -- and guys like Jerry Reinsdorf are not foolish when it comes to money (in spite of what they tell us during CBA negotiations).

Durham is worth what someone will pay him, same as the rest of us. A ticket to see Durham play is worth what someone will pay to see him. Please note that the two are not related.

Now if someone could figure out a way to draw 3 million paying customers to watch teachers teach, firefighters fight fires, and police officers make arrests...

guillen4life13
06-30-2003, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
If we valued what individuals contribute to society, we would give the $1.5 million salaries to grade school teachers, police officers, and firefighters. That's not the world we live in.

If you want to see ballplayers getting paid a wage more in keeping with what they're worth to society, visit Schaumburg, Kane County, Joliet, Cook County, or Gary. The Tribune did a write up about minor league baseball in today's business section. Some of these teams have a $90,000 salary budget.

Unfortunately, economics get in the way of utopia. As any economist will tell you, there is no connection between the price of admission and the cost of the product (namely salaries). Baseball owners charge EXACTLY what the market will bear and not a penny more. To charge any less would make them fools -- and guys like Jerry Reinsdorf are not foolish when it comes to money (in spite of what they tell us during CBA negotiations).

Durham is worth what someone will pay him, same as the rest of us. A ticket to see Durham play is worth what someone will pay to see him. Please note that the two are not related.

Now if someone could figure out a way to draw 3 million paying customers to watch teachers teach, firefighters fight fires, and police officers make arrests... ]

Well said. :gulp: