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View Full Version : Gordon/Koch trade value


Gumshoe
06-25-2003, 04:01 PM
Everyone is talking about Gordon as being a big time possibility to trade to other teams ... like he's a hot commodity. I know he is throwing hard, but he has been getting smoked all year! Also, he doesn't really use that curveball that made him famous as an "out pitch". I think he's blown more games than Koch, too, and that is pretty bad. It seems people are high on his value. Let's get something for him and give someone else a shot.

I'd try to move Koch but I don't think anyone would want him. I don't know why people are on Gordo's nutz ... maybe they only watched that Red Sox save. He's about as trustworthy as Koch. Let's move them both and ca$h in!

Who'd you think we could get?

Gumshoe

gosox41
06-25-2003, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Everyone is talking about Gordon as being a big time possibility to trade to other teams ... like he's a hot commodity. I know he is throwing hard, but he has been getting smoked all year! Also, he doesn't really use that curveball that made him famous as an "out pitch". I think he's blown more games than Koch, too, and that is pretty bad. It seems people are high on his value. Let's get something for him and give someone else a shot.

I'd try to move Koch but I don't think anyone would want him. I don't know why people are on Gordo's nutz ... maybe they only watched that Red Sox save. He's about as trustworthy as Koch. Let's move them both and ca$h in!

Who'd you think we could get?

Gumshoe

Koch is untradeable. If I were KW I'd dump him for nothing and use the money saved to bring back Colon next season.

As for Gordon, I don't think he's been that bad. A little inconsistent. If I'm not mistaken he leads all AL relievers in K/9 innings. Sometimes he gets a little wild, but that may be due to the movement on his curve ball.

Bob

Hangar18
06-25-2003, 04:12 PM
I dont know which one of those 2 I hate more. Totally and
Completely UNRELIABLE. theyve both cost us GAMES BIG TIME,
Games were trying to come back from because of them.
I cant think of a game they HELPED US WIN. THEYVE COST US
games, so im just doing the math, get rid of these bozos.
If im managing, I wouldnt have brought these guys in the game
with the game on the line like that. I wouldve gotten them
their work and not Allowed them to FAIL, and SET ME UP TO
GET FIRED. but thats just me.......

Tragg
06-25-2003, 04:35 PM
What are you people talking about? Billy Koch has 11 saves in 13 opportunities. And my guess is that he's about 10 out of his last 10. Okay, he isn't as good as Foulke. But he's still good. This isn't like a Ritchie deal - Ritchie was decidedly NO GOOD.

Gordon isn't much, maybe some team might think he can help, which is why people suggest shopping him.

Oh yea, Foulke is 20/23 and Bradford is 1/4.

Gumshoe
06-25-2003, 04:37 PM
As much as I agree with you Hangar, who else would Jerry put in? Rick White? hahaha! What a good job by KW in procuring right handed "relief" BARF

gosox41, Gordon hasn't been that bad? He's been just as bad as koch. He showed it again vs. the Cubs almost blowing that game on Saturday. I'll list them again. He got smoked against Arizona, he threw a wild pitch on a sunday at minnesota to let the tying run in, then gave up the winning run, he barely got out of a situation in cleveland, only to be put BACK in the game by Manuel to blow the game for Buehrle (Marte should have been in), he blew games in Baltimore, LA, the list is endless ... jeez

Gum

ps- to be fair he was good against Toronto in the game we won 6-5, he got the save against Boston the other night, and he was maybe OK against Baltimore ONCE. Too bad we can't pitch Marte every time out of the PEN ...

gosox41
06-25-2003, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
What are you people talking about? Billy Koch has 11 saves in 13 opportunities. And my guess is that he's about 10 out of his last 10. Okay, he isn't as good as Foulke. But he's still good. This isn't like a Ritchie deal - Ritchie was decidedly NO GOOD.

Gordon isn't much, maybe some team might think he can help, which is why people suggest shopping him.

Oh yea, Foulke is 20/23 and Bradford is 1/4.

It doesn't matter what their save % is. Saves are the most overblown stat in all of baseball. I want pitcher's with low WHIP's. Over time those are the guys that will have a higher save %.


Perfect example is last night's game. Koch gets a save for coming into the game with 2 out and nobody on and facing one batter. Big deal. I think that's the second time this season this has happened.

Koch makes things wasy too interesting for my tastes. I know some say he bends but doesn't break. It will catch up to him, it already has started. It's too risky for him to put a guy or to on base and then rely on him to consistently get the other guys out befoer blowing the game. Once a batter hits a ball, it's out of the pitcher's control what happens (ie duck snort. or 5 inches to the right of the SS) The idea is to not give a team any chances or hope of coming back.

Bob

Tragg
06-25-2003, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
It doesn't matter what their save % is. Saves are the most overblown stat in all of baseball. I want pitcher's with low WHIP's. Over time those are the guys that will have a higher save %.


Perfect example is last night's game. Koch gets a save for coming into the game with 2 out and nobody on and facing one batter. Big deal. I think that's the second time this season this has happened.

Koch makes things wasy too interesting for my tastes. I know some say he bends but doesn't break. It will catch up to him, it already has started. It's too risky for him to put a guy or to on base and then rely on him to consistently get the other guys out befoer blowing the game. Once a batter hits a ball, it's out of the pitcher's control what happens (ie duck snort. or 5 inches to the right of the SS) The idea is to not give a team any chances or hope of coming back.

Bob

ON the other hand, typical stats like ERAS and HWIP can be awfully deceptive for a closer because a single bad outing can kill those stats for an entire season. And that's what happened to Koch, very early in the year v KC I think.
Koch has amassed a lot of saves over 4 years; it hasn't caught up yet.
Not a great pitcher, but he's just about what you get with most closers and a lot better than a lot of teams have (seen Jose Mesa pitch lately?)

SoxxoS
06-25-2003, 05:07 PM
I am suprised Jose Mesa has lasted this long. I though he was done 4 years ago. That resurrection was unbelieveable.

maurice
06-25-2003, 05:47 PM
Gordon: 3.75 ERA, 11.5 K/9

With those numbers and his experience, you won't have any trouble moving him for some A-ball prospects. It's really not a huge issue, since KW didn't give up anything to get him. Koch is a different story.

Koch: 4.68 ERA, 6.89 K/9

His value is at an all-time low right now. He's been pitching better lately. They should wait until his numbers improve and then move him. I didn't want him on the team in the first place.

SoxxoS
06-25-2003, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Gordon: 3.75 ERA, 11.5 K/9

With those numbers and his experience, you won't have any trouble moving him for some A-ball prospects. It's really not a huge issue, since KW didn't give up anything to get him. Koch is a different story.

Koch: 4.68 ERA, 6.89 K/9

His value is at an all-time low right now. He's been pitching better lately. They should wait until his numbers improve and then move him. I didn't want him on the team in the first place.

Koch needs to find that velocity. I can't believe nobody is really stressing this fact. His velocity is what made him the "Rolaids Relief Man of the Year" not this 92 mph crap he is throwing up there, with no command I might add. He is getting the job done...yes...but playoff teams have the game all but locked up going into the 9th with a lead. That is FAR from the truth with Koch.

SouthSideHitman
06-25-2003, 09:45 PM
By my count, the Sox have 4 pitchers with ERAs under 4 and Gordon is one of them. When you have a bullpen with no other really decent pitchers but two lefties, trading a guy with a great curve which makes his fastball really effective, why trade him?

On the other hand when playoff teams like San Fransisco, Boston, Toronto and temporarily Seattle all have no real closers, why not have them take a chance on Koch? I think that this is addition by subtraction and we could platoon Marte and Gordon like last year (when ironically we did have an effective closer.

gosox41
06-25-2003, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by SouthSideHitman
By my count, the Sox have 4 pitchers with ERAs under 4 and Gordon is one of them. When you have a bullpen with no other really decent pitchers but two lefties, trading a guy with a great curve which makes his fastball really effective, why trade him?

On the other hand when playoff teams like San Fransisco, Boston, Toronto and temporarily Seattle all have no real closers, why not have them take a chance on Koch? I think that this is addition by subtraction and we could platoon Marte and Gordon like last year (when ironically we did have an effective closer.

See the trend with the teams you mentioned above? Closers are highly overrated. Why spend a couple mill this year and $6 mill. next year on a guy who lost 5-7 MPH on his fastball and has a bad WHIP?

Bob

gosox41
06-25-2003, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
ON the other hand, typical stats like ERAS and HWIP can be awfully deceptive for a closer because a single bad outing can kill those stats for an entire season. And that's what happened to Koch, very early in the year v KC I think.
Koch has amassed a lot of saves over 4 years; it hasn't caught up yet.
Not a great pitcher, but he's just about what you get with most closers and a lot better than a lot of teams have (seen Jose Mesa pitch lately?)

Koch has pitched just awful the last couple of weeks. He's done nothing but put guys on base and try to pitch out of jams.

Bob

MRKARNO
06-25-2003, 10:32 PM
Gordon's just skyrocketed and Koch's just plumetted to Armando Benitez level