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FJA
06-25-2003, 12:31 AM
I would take it with a grain a salt, but Gammons said we're going after Ponson from Baltimore.

Going after only a SP seems strange, so, as 100% pure speculation, how about throwing in Mora? :D:

MRKARNO
06-25-2003, 12:32 AM
Haven't we supposedly been going after him for years now? It would be great to have him and the hitting is so bad that if we traded hitting for more pitching, I wouldnt be sad. I know we need hitting, but we'll take pitching as Danny Wright is not the answer (While Garland is). Maybe they want Jose Valentin over Deivi Cruz. But the key is maybe and this is all unsupported speculation on my end

MHOUSE
06-25-2003, 12:39 AM
Jose and a prospect for Ponson? I'd do it. He has been very good this year and is still young. If we could hit at all with that great a rotation we'd be in great shape. All of Jose's offense game in April. He's spent so ship him out.

Colon
Loaiza
Ponson
Buehrle
Garland

That's quite a rotation right there is Buehrle can figure it out and Garland is consistent. Colon, Loaiza, and Ponson will more than hold it together.

doublem23
06-25-2003, 12:49 AM
We have one of the best pitching staffs in the Majors... We need offense! Or bullpen help.

Once again, Kenny Williams shows no concern (or clue) as to the strengths and weaknesses of his team.

:KW
Aaron Rowand? Sounds like a bonafide Major League center fielder to me!

(NOTE: I don't believe a word that comes out of Boston Gammons' mouth, so I doubt that this has any truth behind it whatsoever).

MRKARNO
06-25-2003, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
Jose and a prospect for Ponson? I'd do it. He has been very good this year and is still young. If we could hit at all with that great a rotation we'd be in great shape. All of Jose's offense game in April. He's spent so ship him out.

Colon
Loaiza
Ponson
Buehrle
Garland

That's quite a rotation right there is Buehrle can figure it out and Garland is consistent. Colon, Loaiza, and Ponson will more than hold it together.

If I'm any playoff team, I would NOT want to face that group of five. I dont know who the sox would skip! The important thing is that Kenny WIlliams could sign Ponson to a longer contract than Colon most likely and we'd be set for a while if we could extend Loaiza's contract too. If we could sign Colon...Then it might be THE best rotation in baseball, rivaling the A's certainly, it might be one of the better one's of this era

The more I think about a trade of Valentin and a prospect (miles maybe?) for Ponson, the more I get worked up about it and the more I like it. We dont need players who can hit, we have them, it's just that they're not hitting, but the law of averages says that they will, but the law of averages also says that we should have won another world series by now.

ilsox7
06-25-2003, 01:09 AM
Um, if we can do this trade, it better not take KW longer than 1 second to say yes. Is our offense struggling? Yes. But pitching wins championships. If that trade actually happened, we could make it far scoring 3 runs a game. Of course it'd be nice if the bats suddenly showed up...

spanishwhite
06-25-2003, 01:12 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
We have one of the best pitching staffs in the Majors... We need offense! Or bullpen help.

Once again, Kenny Williams shows no concern (or clue) as to the strengths and weaknesses of his team.

:KW
Aaron Rowand? Sounds like a bonafide Major League center fielder to me!

(NOTE: I don't believe a word that comes out of Boston Gammons' mouth, so I doubt that this has any truth behind it whatsoever).

If we did do it, Wright would probably go to the bullpen. Over the past couple of years, there has been the rumor of top management thinking that Wright is more suited for the pen.

doublem23
06-25-2003, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by ilsox7
Um, if we can do this trade, it better not take KW longer than 1 second to say yes. Is our offense struggling? Yes. But pitching wins championships. If that trade actually happened, we could make it far scoring 3 runs a game. Of course it'd be nice if the bats suddenly showed up...

3 runs a game? Sheesh, the best team ERA in the American League is 3.44... The Sox have the 4th best team ERA in the American League right now (and best in our division). Where has this gotten us? Mediocre play for most of the year. The Sox need another bat before we need another arm.

ilsox7
06-25-2003, 01:31 AM
I'm just saying that I think it's worth it to add a quality arm while giving up very little. Sorry to all of those Jose fans out there, but he isn't getting the job done. I'd put those 5 starters up against anyone in the League. And yes, in the playoffs, sometimes 3 runs a game will win championships. It'd be great if KW adds a bat too, but if this deal can be done, why not? Depending on the propsect, it looks like it's giving up very little for a nice addition, which makes me question its chances of happening.

Also, the Dodgers are scoring abt 3.5 runs a game and are 12 over .500

Good pitching beats good hitting, and the law of averages says our offense should improve somewhat.

voodoochile
06-25-2003, 01:50 AM
Originally posted by ilsox7
I'm just saying that I think it's worth it to add a quality arm while giving up very little. Sorry to all of those Jose fans out there, but he isn't getting the job done. I'd put those 5 starters up against anyone in the League. And yes, in the playoffs, sometimes 3 runs a game will win championships. It'd be great if KW adds a bat too, but if this deal can be done, why not? Depending on the propsect, it looks like it's giving up very little for a nice addition, which makes me question its chances of happening.

Also, the Dodgers are scoring abt 3.5 runs a game and are 12 over .500

Good pitching beats good hitting, and the law of averages says our offense should improve somewhat.

Okay, who plays SS? Graffanino? I really don't like that idea.

MRKARNO
06-25-2003, 01:52 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Okay, who plays SS? Graffanino? I really don't like that idea.

D'Angelo Jimenez and his spectacular defense can handle it

Just because it hasnt been mentioned, Ponson's numbers:

2003:
W-L ERA G CG SHO IP
9-4 3.93 14 2 0 94.0

Career:
W-L ERA G CG SHO IP
50-57 4.66 160 20 2 975.1

He would come in and be the number 3 or 4 after Colon Loaiza and maybe Buerhle and Garland would be the best no. 5 in the league most likely. If we could sign extend Colon and Loaiza's contracts and trade for Ponson, imagine all the division championships (like the braves of the 90's).

http://www.sunspot.net/sports/baseball/bal-sp.osnotes20jun20,0,2426235.story?coll=bal-sports-baseball

He is a free agent after the year and he'd need a 3-year contract to sign. It sounds like they still want to trade him, but the white sox are not among the mentioned in this article

doublem23
06-25-2003, 01:59 AM
You're all still forgetting the big point is that who the hell hits? Not saying Jose's offense has been lighting up, but WE NEED A BAT! Adding another arm would be sweet, but before anyone starts mentioning going after another proven starter, let's invest some cash into someone who knows what to do with that stick of wood they hand them.

MRKARNO
06-25-2003, 02:12 AM
If you had Johnson, Schilling and Pedro along with 2 decent starters and the lineup of the detroit tigers or (for monetary purposes) the devil rays, you would win A LOT more games than the team with the pitching of the Rangers and the lineup of the blue jays. Good pitching ALWAYS is better than good hitting. I would much rather see the sox acquire pitching than hitting and I wouldnt mind seeing the sox give up a lot of hitting for a lot of proven pitching. Forget hitting, you need some, but pitching is better. We've got hitting, they're just all slumping. There is no way in hell that I'm passing on a Valentin and any AAA player for Ponson, none. The dodgers have terrible hitting, but amazing pitching and they're near the top of their division with 44-32 record. The astros, cards and reds all have good hitting, but a lack of pitching and they cant pass the cubs, who have pitching. PITCHING PITCHING PITCHING!!!!

gosox41
06-25-2003, 03:25 AM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
Jose and a prospect for Ponson? I'd do it. He has been very good this year and is still young. If we could hit at all with that great a rotation we'd be in great shape. All of Jose's offense game in April. He's spent so ship him out.

Colon
Loaiza
Ponson
Buehrle
Garland

That's quite a rotation right there is Buehrle can figure it out and Garland is consistent. Colon, Loaiza, and Ponson will more than hold it together.

It's a good rotation, but the Sox starting pitcing has been fine. Of course it could always be better, but if the Sox are going to make a trade I'd rather see them address one of our bigger holes.

Bob

gosox41
06-25-2003, 03:26 AM
Originally posted by FJA
I would take it with a grain a salt, but Gammons said we're going after Ponson from Baltimore.

Going after only a SP seems strange, so, as 100% pure speculation, how about throwing in Mora? :D:

How about Koch and Konerko for Ponson.

gosox41
06-25-2003, 03:29 AM
Originally posted by ilsox7
Um, if we can do this trade, it better not take KW longer than 1 second to say yes. Is our offense struggling? Yes. But pitching wins championships. If that trade actually happened, we could make it far scoring 3 runs a game. Of course it'd be nice if the bats suddenly showed up...

How did Jose's name get bought up in this anyway? Did Gammons mention him specifically or was it wishful thinking by some people here?

As bad as Baltimore is, it's going to take a lot more then Valentin and Miles to get Ponson. I doubt the Baltimore GM called only the Sox and is so desperate to deal their best starting pitcher they will take a .225 hitting, nonfielding, 33 year old SS and a career minor league second baseman.

If you believe that's going to happen, I have a bridge to sell you.

Bob

gosox41
06-25-2003, 03:35 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
If you had Johnson, Schilling and Pedro along with 2 decent starters and the lineup of the detroit tigers or (for monetary purposes) the devil rays, you would win A LOT more games than the team with the pitching of the Rangers and the lineup of the blue jays. Good pitching ALWAYS is better than good hitting. I would much rather see the sox acquire pitching than hitting and I wouldnt mind seeing the sox give up a lot of hitting for a lot of proven pitching. Forget hitting, you need some, but pitching is better. We've got hitting, they're just all slumping. There is no way in hell that I'm passing on a Valentin and any AAA player for Ponson, none. The dodgers have terrible hitting, but amazing pitching and they're near the top of their division with 44-32 record. The astros, cards and reds all have good hitting, but a lack of pitching and they cant pass the cubs, who have pitching. PITCHING PITCHING PITCHING!!!!

Scoring runs is 50% of the game. Preventing them is hte other 50%. Unless you have the 12 best pitchers in all of baseball on your staff, you could always improve pitching. Howver, the Sox will add more victories to this years total if they improve their hitting adn that's where resources should be spent instead of waiting for the law of averages to kick in.

I may be mistaken, but didn't the Sox hit something like .295 with RISP last season? I think it lead the league and as good as it was I wasn't expecting it too happen again.

As for the comparison of putting Pedro, Schilling, Johnson and the Tiger's offense vs. the Blue Jays offense and Ranger's pitching. It's a little off base, because odds are neither team is going to the playoffs because each team has a major hole in 50% of their game.

Bob

Chisoxfn
06-25-2003, 04:40 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
3 runs a game? Sheesh, the best team ERA in the American League is 3.44... The Sox have the 4th best team ERA in the American League right now (and best in our division). Where has this gotten us? Mediocre play for most of the year. The Sox need another bat before we need another arm.

Well technically they would get bullpen help cause Wright would shift to the pen.

Chisoxfn
06-25-2003, 04:42 AM
Originally posted by ilsox7
I'm just saying that I think it's worth it to add a quality arm while giving up very little. Sorry to all of those Jose fans out there, but he isn't getting the job done. I'd put those 5 starters up against anyone in the League. And yes, in the playoffs, sometimes 3 runs a game will win championships. It'd be great if KW adds a bat too, but if this deal can be done, why not? Depending on the propsect, it looks like it's giving up very little for a nice addition, which makes me question its chances of happening.

Also, the Dodgers are scoring abt 3.5 runs a game and are 12 over .500

Good pitching beats good hitting, and the law of averages says our offense should improve somewhat.

IF the Sox make that trade, then I'd tend to think they would ship Colon to the Red Sox for Sanchez and Fossum and hopefully Nixon or a combo of two of the three.

Then they'd have someone to replace Jose. Plus Ponson would be signed and the Sox would save a bit compared to reupping with Colon.

Now a rotatoin with all those guys would be fantastic. Another trade I find intriguing would be Jimenez and Rauch to the Fish for Castillo. Don't know if they would do it, but if sox signed Castillo cheap it would be sweet.

hold2dibber
06-25-2003, 08:32 AM
What in God's name are you people talking about? Someone please explain to me why the Orioles would trade Ponson for Valentin? The Orioles will want prospects for Ponson, not an aging, declining SS who is also (JUST LIKE PONSON!) in the last year of his contract. Gammons didn't say a word about who the Sox were shopping to get Ponson, but I absolutely promise you that it is not Valentin. That was just wishful (and, frankly, completely irrational and unrealistic) thinking by one of the posters on this thread.

Don't waste another second of your time considering a Ponson for Valentin deal, because it absolutely, positively will NOT happen.

Now, if Gammons is right (and I know that is a humongous "if" with Gammons' track record) and the Sox are interested in Ponson, my first question is why. As others have mentioned, the Sox need a stick, not an arm. They have gaping holes at CF and SS. I'm not including 3B here, despite the fact that Crede has been abysmal, because he was so good last year, has such a great minor league track record, and has shown some signs of life lately. In any event, CFs like Beltran, Carl Everett and Kenny Lofton are available. I'm not sure about SSs. But the point is, another starter shouldn't be the priority (but that's not to say another starter is a bad idea - just that another hitter is more important).

Finally, I wouldn't give up too much for Ponson. He has a career 4.66 ERA. He has underachieved his entire career until this year which -- SURPRISE! -- just happens to be his contract year. Thus, I wouldn't mind adding him for the rest of the year if it didn't take much to get him (like Miles or Ginter or a couple "B" prospects), but I wouldn't be interested in signing him to a long term deal, as I don't think, over the long haul, he's going to be any better than Wright. Once he gets his big contract, he'll go back to being his over-sized, under-achieving self.

34 Inch Stick
06-25-2003, 10:47 AM
I imagine the Sox are not going to be in the market for ANY trades until they figure out whether they are a seller or a buyer. At this point the season can go either way. I would put this trade in the slow Tuesday new category.

Hangar18
06-25-2003, 11:30 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MRKARNO
[B]D'Angelo Jimenez and his spectacular defense can handle it

Just because it hasnt been mentioned, Ponson's numbers:

2003:
W-L ERA G CG SHO IP
9-4 3.93 14 2 0 94.0

Career:
W-L ERA G CG SHO IP
50-57 4.66 160 20 2 975.1

He would come in and be the number 3 or 4 after Colon Loaiza and maybe Buerhle and Garland would be the best no. 5 in the league most likely. If we could sign extend Colon and Loaiza's contracts and trade for Ponson, imagine all the division championships (like the braves of the 90's).

http://www.sunspot.net/sports/baseball/bal-sp.osnotes20jun20,0,2426235.story?coll=bal-sports-baseball

This is a very good point. Staff could be set for a couple yrs...

FJA
06-25-2003, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
What in God's name are you people talking about? Someone please explain to me why the Orioles would trade Ponson for Valentin? The Orioles will want prospects for Ponson, not an aging, declining SS who is also (JUST LIKE PONSON!) in the last year of his contract. Gammons didn't say a word about who the Sox were shopping to get Ponson, but I absolutely promise you that it is not Valentin. That was just wishful (and, frankly, completely irrational and unrealistic) thinking by one of the posters on this thread.

Don't waste another second of your time considering a Ponson for Valentin deal, because it absolutely, positively will NOT happen.

Now, if Gammons is right (and I know that is a humongous "if" with Gammons' track record) and the Sox are interested in Ponson, my first question is why. As others have mentioned, the Sox need a stick, not an arm. They have gaping holes at CF and SS. I'm not including 3B here, despite the fact that Crede has been abysmal, because he was so good last year, has such a great minor league track record, and has shown some signs of life lately. In any event, CFs like Beltran, Carl Everett and Kenny Lofton are available. I'm not sure about SSs. But the point is, another starter shouldn't be the priority (but that's not to say another starter is a bad idea - just that another hitter is more important).

Finally, I wouldn't give up too much for Ponson. He has a career 4.66 ERA. He has underachieved his entire career until this year which -- SURPRISE! -- just happens to be his contract year. Thus, I wouldn't mind adding him for the rest of the year if it didn't take much to get him (like Miles or Ginter or a couple "B" prospects), but I wouldn't be interested in signing him to a long term deal, as I don't think, over the long haul, he's going to be any better than Wright. Once he gets his big contract, he'll go back to being his over-sized, under-achieving self.

First of all, I don't think we'd have to give up a ton for Ponson ... he's a Baltimore salary dump. Contract year? Yes, but he's young and improving like many young pitchers do, so it's hard to tell whether he's really finding his stuff or not. What I do know is that he's a better pitcher than Wright NOW. If we've decided to make a serious run, I'd rather add Wright in the bullpen and make Ponson the #3.

(To confirm, since I started the thread, Gammons never said a word about Jose.)

Secondly, something tells me that if KW is going out to get starting pitching (and I think this would be a good move depending on what we're giving up), he HAS to realize our gaping holes at SS and CF. I don't think he's the smartest GM in the league, but I also don't think he's the stupidest. He makes a lot of stupid moves in the name of impulse (which, unfortunately, isn't seen as a mistake in the White Sox organization, MONEYBALL readers). I think if KW decides we're a contender, we're going to get two, maybe three serious upgrades--one SP, one CF, and MAYBE an SS (I think SS is the least likely given Jose's clubhouse presence). IMO, the players we have now--if they play to potential--can win us the division. The starting pitching, especially, is enough. If KW is looking for another SP, he is looking past this division, which is a good thing. The burning question will be, does he realize the other places we need more serious help?

Randar68
06-25-2003, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by FJA
(I think SS is the least likely given Jose's clubhouse presence).

With the lackadaisical play this team displays on a regular basis and the lack of accountability, keeping ANYONE for "clubhouse presence" is totally asinine.

voodoochile
06-25-2003, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
With the lackadaisical play this team displays on a regular basis and the lack of accountability, keeping ANYONE for "clubhouse presence" is totally asinine.

:jerry
"I agree..."

MHOUSE
06-25-2003, 12:46 PM
How about a three-way trade with us, Boston, and Baltimore?

Sox get: Ponson, Sanchez
Orioles get: White/Red Sox prospect(s) and Jose
BoSox get: Colon

This is assuming they would want Jose. But I would throw in any of our guys. They could take Jimenez, Jose, Graffy, Konerko, whomever they wanted. Ponson would be slightly younger and cheaper than Colon, but obviously not as good (patented White Sox 2nd best for cheap) and Sanchez could play SS if we lost Jose or just be our future there.

FarmerAndy
06-25-2003, 12:52 PM
Don't forget that Jose makes $5 Million. I don't know how many teams are in the market for a crappy player who makes $5 million.

While we're at it, I would like to trade Konerko too. But really, what team in their right minds would want either of these guys?

xil357
06-25-2003, 01:00 PM
If the Sox could get Ponson and then sign him, it would make the chances of winning the division this year even better. Only the hitting would have to come around.

If the Sox were to RE-LOAD around pitching while improving the defense through free agency, trades, etc., it also would bode well for 2004, 2005 and beyond. This team has enough hitters. They just haven't hit well so far this year.

MisterB
06-25-2003, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by ilsox7
Also, the Dodgers are scoring abt 3.5 runs a game and are 12 over .500


They also have a team ERA under 3.00 . Just adding Ponson does not drop our team ERA by a run and a half. The Sox may have the 4th best ERA in the AL, but we're 13th overall in the Majors. The NL is very slanted toward the pitchers right now. Comparing anything an AL team does to an NL team this season is meaningless.

longshot7
06-25-2003, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Okay, who plays SS? Graffanino? I really don't like that idea.

THANK YOU!! Oh, I forgot, we have Jason Dellaero. Hooray.

Randar68
06-25-2003, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by longshot7
THANK YOU!! Oh, I forgot, we have Jason Dellaero. Hooray.

He was released outright a short time ago.

gosox41
06-25-2003, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by FJA


Secondly, something tells me that if KW is going out to get starting pitching (and I think this would be a good move depending on what we're giving up), he HAS to realize our gaping holes at SS and CF. I don't think he's the smartest GM in the league, but I also don't think he's the stupidest. He makes a lot of stupid moves in the name of impulse (which, unfortunately, isn't seen as a mistake in the White Sox organization, MONEYBALL readers). I think if KW decides we're a contender, we're going to get two, maybe three serious upgrades--one SP, one CF, and MAYBE an SS (I think SS is the least likely given Jose's clubhouse presence). IMO, the players we have now--if they play to potential--can win us the division. The starting pitching, especially, is enough. If KW is looking for another SP, he is looking past this division, which is a good thing. The burning question will be, does he realize the other places we need more serious help?

I disagree. I think KW is the stupidest GM in baseball. Assuming he's smart enough to fill the SS and CF holes, he's going to give up way too much.

Too bad 'MoneyBall' wasn't written when the Koch/Foulke trade was made.

Bob