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View Full Version : Short Stop-A priority for this team!


NewyorkSoxFan
06-24-2003, 11:01 PM
A great win, and the team is finally starting to play good baseball. But it has become ever clearer that next year, we cannot start the season with Jose at short. I have been a fan of his and I know the team respects him, but he is an awful shortstop.

NYSF

fquaye149
06-24-2003, 11:06 PM
mmhmm

but not a lot on the chopping blocks

MRKARNO
06-24-2003, 11:13 PM
I hear good things about Valido whom we just drafted

Daver
06-24-2003, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
I hear good things about Valido whom we just drafted

He was drafted out of HS,he is three to four years away...........

TheRockinMT
06-24-2003, 11:18 PM
I think Jose V is a good short stop. He just needs to harness some of that energy and not get so carried away. He wants to win and that's what we need.

voodoochile
06-24-2003, 11:22 PM
It's really the first time he has done that in a while. It was nice to see him come back in his next at bat and nearly drive in Carlos. If not for a great play by Guzman, the Sox get the run right back.

Jose isn't the greatest SS in the world, but he definitely isn't the worst.

Kilroy
06-24-2003, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
It's really the first time he has done that in a while. It was nice to see him come back in his next at bat and nearly drive in Carlos. If not for a great play by Guzman, the Sox get the run right back.

Jose isn't the greatest SS in the world, but he definitely isn't the worst.

Hey, all that heart and soul and desire is great. I love Jose. But I can't stand sweating routine grounders. It's absolutely ridiculous. That throw was 5-6 feet wide of Konerko, and it was a routine turn.

New shortstop. Please!

MRKARNO
06-24-2003, 11:32 PM
Miguel Tejada will be a free agent this offseason

Gumshoe
06-24-2003, 11:38 PM
remember, Jacque Jones was running ... average SS barely gets him or Jacque beats it out. Remember, Jose's detriment/advantage is that strong arm. He's solid, and our D is solid. Let's score some runs!
!!!!


Go Sox!

Gumshoe

SoxxoS
06-24-2003, 11:38 PM
Hey, I have heart and desire too, but that doesn't give me the opportunity to be a starting SS on a major league team.

voodoochile
06-24-2003, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Hey, all that heart and soul and desire is great. I love Jose. But I can't stand sweating routine grounders. It's absolutely ridiculous. That throw was 5-6 feet wide of Konerko, and it was a routine turn.

New shortstop. Please!

Oh come on. That's on you. Jose has been very solid in the field this year, or am I missing something? His arm has been much better than it was two years ago.

He rushed this throw because the runner was fast and the guy was bearing down on him. Looked like he sidearmed it to get it around the runner's head and that is when he throws wildly - which he obviously did.

MarkEdward
06-24-2003, 11:53 PM
The thing is, there's a lack of good shortstops in all of baseball. Look at some of the starting SS in the majors: Omar Infante, Tony Womack, Cesar Izturis, Christian Guzman. We're lucky to have Valentin. Also, aside from a select few, there aren't many good SS prospects in the high minors.

By the way, I found this surprising: Valentin leads Derek Jeter in VORP (6.9 to 5.5). He also leads Jeter in RARP (8.4 to 7.0).

BKozi
06-25-2003, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Miguel Tejada will be a free agent this offseason

I mentioned this earlier in the season when they announced that Oakland wasn't going to sign him and not many people agreed with me. I still think we should make a run at him. His numbers have been low but they'll be back up there. This guy could be an exceptional SS for many years. If Crede starts hitting again, I would love the left side of our infield.

kermittheefrog
06-25-2003, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Miguel Tejada will be a free agent this offseason

The Miguel Tejada with a .286 OBP?

MHOUSE
06-25-2003, 12:29 AM
Yeah I like Jose's heart and leadership qualities. But his .229 average doesn't overcome his lack of defense. He had one stellar year in 2000 and he has been average with a little pop from the left side. We need to address defense and SS is as logical a place as any to start. Our stats aren't bad, but we have booted A LOT of plays that just haven't been charged as errors. Harris whiffed on a flyout today that shouldn't have been a hit.

kevingrt
06-25-2003, 12:38 AM
We could get a bag of balls for Valentin... But couldn't we move Willie Harris to 2B, D'Angelo Jimenez to SS, and Aaron Rowand to CF? Why not? For the immediate at least

Thunderstruck30
06-25-2003, 12:43 AM
Valentin does lead the team in errors with 10 and his fielding percentage is only 968. He is a bad fielder and an average fielder. However he does have good leadership qualities and gives it his all. I wouldnt really mind if he is or isnt on the Sox next year.

doublem23
06-25-2003, 01:03 AM
Jose, like Sandy Alomar, would do the Sox much more benefit with a nice coaching job... Unfortunately, there's no stud rookie taking playing time from Jose the way Miguel is taking it away from Sandy.

Damn.

gosox41
06-25-2003, 03:40 AM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
Yeah I like Jose's heart and leadership qualities. But his .229 average doesn't overcome his lack of defense. He had one stellar year in 2000 and he has been average with a little pop from the left side. We need to address defense and SS is as logical a place as any to start. Our stats aren't bad, but we have booted A LOT of plays that just haven't been charged as errors. Harris whiffed on a flyout today that shouldn't have been a hit.

I agree. Jose is a lot easier to watch defensively when he's producing offensively.

Bob

NewyorkSoxFan
06-25-2003, 07:56 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
remember, Jacque Jones was running ... average SS barely gets him or Jacque beats it out. Remember, Jose's detriment/advantage is that strong arm. He's solid, and our D is solid. Let's score some runs!
!!!!


Go Sox!

Gumshoe


Your Kidding Right???

Solid, Solid?? That was an easy dp that should have been turned. You can't keep giving good teams extra outs esp on the road. That is a good way to get beat. Also he screwed the play up in center that caused Willie to short arm, trying to make the catch b/c Jose was heading out and not watching where Willie was.

I love Jose, and he has been a good guy, but he a platoon guy IMO.

NYSF

Kilroy
06-25-2003, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
He rushed this throw because the runner was fast and the guy was bearing down on him. Looked like he sidearmed it to get it around the runner's head and that is when he throws wildly - which he obviously did.

Ok, I guess I can give him a pass. I mean, a shortstop will only have to turn a double play under those conditions once or twice a season.

hold2dibber
06-25-2003, 09:17 AM
Jose also screwed up the tag on Hocking when Harris' throw had Hocking dead to rights at 2nd, but Jose just swiped at him; when you have the runner beat by that much, you move the hell off the base toward the runner and cut him down, you don't just wait for him that making a sweeping tag. Horse crap play.

hold2dibber
06-25-2003, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by kevingrt
We could get a bag of balls for Valentin... But couldn't we move Willie Harris to 2B, D'Angelo Jimenez to SS, and Aaron Rowand to CF? Why not? For the immediate at least

You've got to be joking - you're looking for a way to get both Harris and Rowand in the line-up on a regular basis? Man, like the Sox' offense hasn't been bad enough already. Plus, Jimenez looks to me to be unfit to play SS; no evidence that I've seen of a strong arm, occassional lack of focus/concentration, not great range.

hold2dibber
06-25-2003, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
The Miguel Tejada with a .286 OBP?

The 27 year old, reigning MVP, who, over his career, has averaged 27 HRs, 104 RBIs and a .781 OPS for each 162 games played. Not a lot of SSs out there (especially available SSs) that can match those credentials.

That said, if the choice is re-signing Colon or going after Tejada, I take Colon. Tejada would be great to have, but he's not good enough to pay him huge money that would hamstring the team's ability to improve elsewhere.

Dadawg_77
06-25-2003, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
The 27 year old, reigning MVP, who, over his career, has averaged 27 HRs, 104 RBIs and a .781 OPS for each 162 games played. Not a lot of SSs out there (especially available SSs) that can match those credentials.

That said, if the choice is re-signing Colon or going after Tejada, I take Colon. Tejada would be great to have, but he's not good enough to pay him huge money that would hamstring the team's ability to improve elsewhere.

Tejada will be way overpriced in the FA market, if there is one. .781 OPS is nothing.

soxrme
06-25-2003, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by TheRockinMT
I think Jose V is a good short stop. He just needs to harness some of that energy and not get so carried away. He wants to win and that's what we need.

I am tired of hearing about how he wants to win and what a great leader he is. How about starting hitting and replacing him defensively later in the game. He is living on the rep from 2000.

voodoochile
06-25-2003, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Ok, I guess I can give him a pass. I mean, a shortstop will only have to turn a double play under those conditions once or twice a season.

Oh, you're right. He has done it 15 times this season and it has cost the Sox every game it has happened in.

hold2dibber
06-25-2003, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Tejada will be way overpriced in the FA market, if there is one. .781 OPS is nothing.

I agree that Tejada will probably be overpriced and won't be worth it. But he would be a vast improvement over Jose and is a damn fine player.


And while a .781 OPS isn't great, in the last three years, his OPS has been .828, .802 and .862. Decent fielding SSs that hit 25+ HRs, drive in 100+ RBIs with an OPS over .800 - and should be entering their primes - are not exactly falling off of trees. But again, I wouldn't want the Sox to commit huge money to him, because as good as he is, he probably isn't worth the 2 or 3 good players they could get with the $ they'd have to pay him.

Dan H
06-25-2003, 10:43 AM
I like Valentin as a leader but he kills you in the field. The trouble with him is that so many of his errors are throwing errors that cost the team two bases intead of one. And if he doesn't pull out of his hitting slump, he's just not contributing much. The Sox were lucky that they survived that one last night. Loaiza did a hell of a job - again.

maurice
06-25-2003, 11:24 AM
Who is going to be in the market to sign Tejada? Don't most of the big spenders already have high-paid SSs? Small number of potential buyers + unusually weak offensive numbers + economics of baseball = surprisingly small contract?

MHOUSE
06-25-2003, 12:56 PM
I forgot about that missed tag. That was ridiculous. How can you stand and wait to put and "excuse me" tag on Denny WHOcking? These are supposed to be our rivals run out and put it on him. He was out by a mile if Jose isn't an idiot. It's easier to watch his errors when he atones with a homer the next inning. Not happening this year at all. We need a SS. Period.

FarmerAndy
06-25-2003, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Plus, Jimenez looks to me to be unfit to play SS

So does Jose.

His contract is up at the end of the year. If they could sign him on the cheap as a utility guy, I would be o.k. with that. But this guy is just plain bad as an everyday shortstop, he isn't hitting, and his reputation as "Mr. Clutch" is long gone.


The excuses people are making for him are starting to become very amusing

xil357
06-25-2003, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
So does Jose.

His contract is up at the end of the year. If they could sign him on the cheap as a utility guy, I would be o.k. with that. But this guy is just plain bad as an everyday shortstop, he isn't hitting, and his reputation as "Mr. Clutch" is long gone.


The excuses people are making for him are starting to become very amusing

If they can't trade him, then let him go for the draft pick compensation. Or is he so bad that we wouldn't get the draft pick?

Kilroy
06-25-2003, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Oh, you're right. He has done it 15 times this season and it has cost the Sox every game it has happened in.

Come on, Voodoo. Don't start getting into the how-many-games-its-cost argument. If he was hitting like he was in 2000/2001, then maybe and that's a slim maybe, you can justify the liability in the field. But he's nowhere close. He caused an unearned run to score that cut the Sox already slim lead in half. As if they aren't already snake bitten enuf, don't help the other team out w/ extra outs and unearned runs.

And thats paying no attention to the other gaffe of his last night. Not getting the tag on Hocking was inexplicable. How many times have the Sox had a play like that where that runner that should have been out ended up scoring? That he didn't last night was a rarity.

That play could just as easily happened in a tie game. You don't know when one is coming, but you do know that 22 makes more than a few plays like that.

voodoochile
06-25-2003, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Come on, Voodoo. Don't start getting into the how-many-games-its-cost argument. If he was hitting like he was in 2000/2001, then maybe and that's a slim maybe, you can justify the liability in the field. But he's nowhere close. He caused an unearned run to score that cut the Sox already slim lead in half. As if they aren't already snake bitten enuf, don't help the other team out w/ extra outs and unearned runs.

And thats paying no attention to the other gaffe of his last night. Not getting the tag on Hocking was inexplicable. How many times have the Sox had a play like that where that runner that should have been out ended up scoring? That he didn't last night was a rarity.

That play could just as easily happened in a tie game. You don't know when one is coming, but you do know that 22 makes more than a few plays like that.

I also know that he makes his fair share of good plays that save baserunners, that his arm helps the Sox out many more times than it costs them and that he is his own toughest critic.

I also notice that he was the only guy who came close to driving in Carlos last night in the ninth. In fact if not for Guzman's stunning long-ranging play into the hole, Carlos walks home. So he was responsible for giving up that run but did his damnedest to make up for it.

Jose has been looking better at the plate this past week. If he was leading off on Sunday - or batting second - the Sox might have won that game. He is not only a team leader, but he rises to the occasion and in addition is a "play maker". Yes, that means sometimes he makes bad plays too, but he is clearly the best SS option on the Sox. Some of the shuffling that people are suggesting to get him out of the lineup are laughable (let's take 3 guys out of their current position and move them into new ones - that is SURE to improve the defense). In addition his OBP is 90 points higher than his BA. Leave well enough alone and hope he starts to hit for some power again. I think that is coming sooner rather than later, but that's JMHO...

Kilroy
06-25-2003, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
...he is clearly the best SS option on the Sox. Some of the shuffling that people are suggesting to get him out of the lineup are laughable...

I agree with both of these thoughts. But when his contract ends, make a move...

voodoochile
06-25-2003, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
I agree with both of these thoughts. But when his contract ends, make a move...

I don't have a problem with that. I was more referring to the present team. Upgrading any position during the off-season is acceptable to me. My guess is they will sign Jose cheap (3 years, <$10M total), but I'd love to see Tejada or any other SS who can play defense and hit a little bit...

maurice
06-25-2003, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I also know that he makes his fair share of good plays that save baserunners, that his arm helps the Sox out many more times than it costs them

His arm is fine. It's his glove that sucks.

he is his own toughest critic

No, I'M his toughest critic. :D:

he was the only guy who came close to driving in Carlos last night in the ninth

And he was shocked, SHOCKED to learn that he was playing baseball and not horseshoes.

Jose has been looking better at the plate this past week

.273 AVE, 6 H, 22 AB, 1 2B, 0 3B, 0 HR, 0 RBI, 5 BB, 8 SO.

The saddest part is that this is an improvement for him.

he is clearly the best SS option on the Sox

He's not better than Graffy right now. Valentin has a stronger arm, but a worse glove, lower OBP, and lower SLG.

Leave well enough alone and hope he starts to hit for some power again

See, that's the thing. His HR and doubles really aren't significantly below what he normally does. He's really never been a good SS; he's just a good guy. I guess it just bothers folks more this season, since the Sox are playing way below expectations.

voodoochile
06-27-2003, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by maurice
His arm is fine. It's his glove that sucks.

No, I'M his toughest critic. :D:

And he was shocked, SHOCKED to learn that he was playing baseball and not horseshoes.

.273 AVE, 6 H, 22 AB, 1 2B, 0 3B, 0 HR, 0 RBI, 5 BB, 8 SO.

The saddest part is that this is an improvement for him.

He's not better than Graffy right now. Valentin has a stronger arm, but a worse glove, lower OBP, and lower SLG.

See, that's the thing. His HR and doubles really aren't significantly below what he normally does. He's really never been a good SS; he's just a good guy. I guess it just bothers folks more this season, since the Sox are playing way below expectations.

Just wanted to bring this thread back to the top of the page and say "nyah nyah nyah nyah!" :D:

How you guys feel about my boy Manos, now?

He has been one of the main reason the Sox have won the games they have these past few days. Too bad they lost on Wednesday, Manos did his part that night too...