PDA

View Full Version : Sox Grades


Dadawg_77
06-24-2003, 02:59 PM
What Grades would you assign to the Sox after 75 games of play?
To make this a little more fun then a rant session, thrown ina grading curve. Grades should be relative to what was expect of them coming into the season. So a C is what you could in average expect from a player.

Catcher -
Sandy Alomar - C Could expect to much more out of him
Miguel Olivo - C+ OBP is still very low
Josh Paul - B Wish him well in his new home

First Base
Paul Konerko - F This is beyond worst case
Frank Thomas - B Shot up since playing in the field
Brian Daubach - C Tough to go from reg playing time to the bench

Second Base -
D'Angelo Jimenez - B Second best hitter on the Sox
Tony Graffanino - B Decent ult man

Thrid Base -
Joe Crede - D Hopefully he will pick it up in the 2nd half

SS -
Jose Valentin - F Absolute horrible this year

LF -
Carlos Lee - D Where did his 2nd half of last year go to?
Armando Rios - C

CF -
Willie Harris - C Not bad CF for a 2B
Aaron Rowland - C Couldn't expect more from him, not that is saying much
Joe Borchard - C Hopefully he learned up here

RF -
Mags - D Needs to heat up

Pitching
SP
Mark Buehrle - C+ Not as bad as his w/l
Bartolo Colon - B- ditto
Jon Garland - B pick it up since having several bad games early
Esteban Loazia - A+ ++++++++ Never could have seen this coming
Danny Wright - C Loss of control with the elbow problems is hurting him

RP
Billy Koch - C You knew he was going to put people on base
Damaso Marte - B Cold as of late but still one of options out of the pen
Tom Gordon - C hot as of late but sucked it up early
Rick White - D like he says, he just sucks this year
Kelly Wunsch - A To bad he is on the DL
Gary Glover - F Worse then White
David Sanders - C Not much to go one here so a C

Blueprint1
06-24-2003, 03:43 PM
I really dont understand how you did these grades. Did you watch the sox or just the games against the cubs?

Gumshoe
06-24-2003, 03:51 PM
I won't disagree with a ton, except Marte deserves an A for SURE. He was unhittable until this recent span of Boston and Cubs (and the Cubs got lucky on a few calls ... or it's game time)

Gum

Dadawg_77
06-24-2003, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by Blueprint1
I really dont understand how you did these grades. Did you watch the sox or just the games against the cubs?

I watched the Sox, but in order to avoid putting F's across the board, I the grade are curved based on a players expectations. Rowand isn't good but you knew that coming into the year, so since he still sucks, but not that horrible he gets a C. The recently cut Josh Paul isn't that good, but he preformed better then what I expected, thus the B. Paul Konerko has preformed way below expectations, thus the F.

kwschro
06-24-2003, 03:59 PM
I don't understand how you could give Billy Krotch a C. He is coming off a year in which he saved 44 games, while winning the Rolaids Relief pitcher of the year award. This year he has lost 8-10 mph on his fastball, and has no confidence on the mound. How does he deserve a grade of C (average or performing up to expectations)?

Dadawg_77
06-24-2003, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by kwschro
I don't understand how you could give Billy Krotch a C. He is coming off a year in which he saved 44 games, while winning the Rolaids Relief pitcher of the year award. This year he has lost 8-10 mph on his fastball, and has no confidence on the mound. How does he deserve a grade of C (average or performing up to expectations)?

I never thought highly of Koch so he is meeting my low expectations.

TornLabrum
06-24-2003, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
I won't disagree with a ton, except Marte deserves an A for SURE. He was unhittable until this recent span of Boston and Cubs (and the Cubs got lucky on a few calls ... or it's game time)

Gum

He loses tons of credit from me with those five blown saves.

Randar68
06-24-2003, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
I watched the Sox, but in order to avoid putting F's across the board, I the grade are curved based on a players expectations. Rowand isn't good but you knew that coming into the year, so since he still sucks, but not that horrible he gets a C. The recently cut Josh Paul isn't that good, but he preformed better then what I expected, thus the B. Paul Konerko has preformed way below expectations, thus the F.


Then how the heck did you give Olivo a C+? A rookie catcher coming from AA?

You need a reality check with whatever expectations you had. Olivo has probably had half of the Sox' key late-inning hits and an OBP around .300 and his defense alone have been at or above realistic expectations.

kermittheefrog
06-24-2003, 04:15 PM
Wow you're a tough grader. I won't bother grading everyone, only the major parts of the team.

Miguel Olivo: C+ I agree with what Dadawg had to say.
Paul Konerko: F--, worst hitter in baseball.
D'Angelo Jimenez: B+, nice to still have a second baseman who can hit.
Joe Crede: F, Almost as terrible as Konerko but at least he's shown some life of late.
Carlos Lee: C -, Unfortunately he isn't the Lee of last year but he isn't too far off his career numbers.
The Centerfield Coalition: F--, Our centerfielders as a whole might just be the least productive position in baseball. Thats saying a lot considering how bad Konerko has been.
Magglio Ordonez: C+, He's still Magglio in every respect except he's hitting less singles.
Frank Thomas: A-, I thought Frank would return to being productive but he's been even better than my expectations.

Mark Buehrle: D, I don't care if he's not as bad as hit W/L he's still doing everything worst than last year. He's gone from ace to replacement level.
Bartolo Colon: B, He's just suffering from expectations set to high, he's still one of the best 20 starters in baseball.
Jon Garland: B, Showing progress, has been our third best pitcher and thats not damning with faint praise.
Pedro Martinez.. I mean Esteban Loaiza: A+, I hope his deal with the devil doesn't run out before the end of the season.
Dan Wright & Josh Stewart: C+, Lumping them together as 5th starters. Neither of them are/were great but they've been solid enough and haven't killed us like Todd Ritchie or Gary Glover last year. Thats all you need out the five spot.

Billy Koch: D, *sigh*
Damaso Marte: B+, I wish Manuel would give him more opportunity.
Tom Gordon: B, he's been healthy.
Rick White: F, why does he pitch so much?

spanishwhite
06-24-2003, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
He loses tons of credit from me with those five blown saves.

Actually, he only has 2 blown saves.

Dadawg_77
06-24-2003, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog

Mark Buehrle: D, I don't care if he's not as bad as hit W/L he's still doing everything worst than last year. He's gone from ace to replacement level.

The thing is Mark was never an ace pitcher. His previous win loss points that he was but looking underneath it all shows he isn't. Since he doesn't strike guys out his ERA and avg of balls hit into play will fluctuate between years. This year it is on the high side, next year he could be on the low side.

Randar68
06-24-2003, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
The thing is Mark was never an ace pitcher. His previous win loss points that he was but looking underneath it all shows he isn't. Since he doesn't strike guys out his ERA and avg of balls hit into play will fluctuate between years. This year it is on the high side, next year he could be on the low side.

His WHIP was worthy of any teams' ace the last 2 years, which is a real indicator of runners allowed. This year it is considerably higher than the past.

His success is tied to his control, and that has been off this season.

Spiff
06-24-2003, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Paul Konerko: F--, worst hitter in baseball.


Have you seen Jeremy Giambi lately?

He doesn't even swing at the ball.

maurice
06-24-2003, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
What Grades would you assign to the Sox after 75 games of play?

I agree for the most part. I gave only five players an "A" or "B" grade, consistent with the team's overall record. If a player's performance was consistent with what I expected, I gave a "C." If I need to see more ABs / IPs to decide, I gave a "I" for "incomplete."

Position Players:

Alomar - C
Olivo - B
Paul - I
Thomas - A
Konerko - F
Daubach - C
Jimenez - C
Valentin - D
Crede - C
Graffanino - C
Ordonez - D
Lee - C
Rios - C
Harris - I
Rowand - I
Borchard - F

Pitchers:
Loazia - A
Colon - C
Buehrle - D
Garland - C
Wright - C
Stewart - I
Koch - F
Marte - B
Gordon - C
White - D
Wunsch - A
Glover - I
Sanders - I

maurice
06-24-2003, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by Spiff
Have you seen Jeremy Giambi lately? He doesn't even swing at the ball.

Actually, I often wish that Konerko would leave his bat in the on deck circle. JM should order him to take three strikes every AB. At least he wouldn't hit into any more triple plays and his walks would increase slightly.

gosox41
06-24-2003, 05:51 PM
I give Jimenez a C-/D+. MMaybe I was to optimistic on this guy but I was hoping for an OBP closer to .375. Obviosuly I read too much into his talent. As of late he hasn't worked the count well at all. Last year I remeber him getting hits with 2 strikes and working a lot of 2-2 & 3-2 counts. I'd also thought he'd have a few more SB's though I'm not really grading him down on that. I am taking off a lot on his base running ability. I've seen little league kids that have a better idea of what to do out there..

Bob

hold2dibber
06-24-2003, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Wow you're a tough grader. I won't bother grading everyone, only the major parts of the team.

Miguel Olivo: C+ I agree with what Dadawg had to say.
Paul Konerko: F--, worst hitter in baseball.
D'Angelo Jimenez: B+, nice to still have a second baseman who can hit.
Joe Crede: F, Almost as terrible as Konerko but at least he's shown some life of late.
Carlos Lee: C -, Unfortunately he isn't the Lee of last year but he isn't too far off his career numbers.
The Centerfield Coalition: F--, Our centerfielders as a whole might just be the least productive position in baseball. Thats saying a lot considering how bad Konerko has been.
Magglio Ordonez: C+, He's still Magglio in every respect except he's hitting less singles.
Frank Thomas: A-, I thought Frank would return to being productive but he's been even better than my expectations.

Mark Buehrle: D, I don't care if he's not as bad as hit W/L he's still doing everything worst than last year. He's gone from ace to replacement level.
Bartolo Colon: B, He's just suffering from expectations set to high, he's still one of the best 20 starters in baseball.
Jon Garland: B, Showing progress, has been our third best pitcher and thats not damning with faint praise.
Pedro Martinez.. I mean Esteban Loaiza: A+, I hope his deal with the devil doesn't run out before the end of the season.
Dan Wright & Josh Stewart: C+, Lumping them together as 5th starters. Neither of them are/were great but they've been solid enough and haven't killed us like Todd Ritchie or Gary Glover last year. Thats all you need out the five spot.

Billy Koch: D, *sigh*
Damaso Marte: B+, I wish Manuel would give him more opportunity.
Tom Gordon: B, he's been healthy.
Rick White: F, why does he pitch so much?

I agree with everything here, except I'd give Olivo a solid B (he's been about what I expected at the plate, but has been even better defensively and in terms of working with pitchers than I expected) and I'd give Jimenez a C+ (he's been pretty good at the plate, but repeatedly makes bone headed base running decisions and appears to me to have problems with his focus/concentration on defense).

Hangar18
06-24-2003, 06:06 PM
MARTE was getting an A from me, but only now getting C++
Koch F
Gordon D++
White F
Konerko F
Lee C++ (his defense is helping his grade)
Thomas was getting a D+ but now gets a B
Loaiza A++ interesting as hes the only guy on the team
worthy of this grade

I only gave bad grades to the worst of our bunch.
Jimenez Wouldve gotten an A- for his hitting, but his defense
and bone-headedness drag him to a C-

maurice
06-24-2003, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
I give Jimenez a C-/D+. Maybe I was to optimistic on this guy but I was hoping for an OBP closer to .375. . . . I'd also thought he'd have a few more SB's though I'm not really grading him down on that. . . .

I gave Jimenez a "C," because his current stats are roughly consistent with his career numbers. Coming into this season, his career OBP was .344 and his career SB% was 57%. I expect that his OBP will go back up once he gets out of his current slump, but he'll never steal many bases.

kermittheefrog
06-24-2003, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
The thing is Mark was never an ace pitcher. His previous win loss points that he was but looking underneath it all shows he isn't. Since he doesn't strike guys out his ERA and avg of balls hit into play will fluctuate between years. This year it is on the high side, next year he could be on the low side.

That would be true if the only major difference in his performance was the hits he gives up on balls in play. So far Buehrle is walking more batters, giving up more homers and striking out less batters. Look at BP's Support-Neutral and VORP rankings for 2001 & 2002. Buehrle pitched like an ace both of the last two years and now everything he's doing has come apart at the seams. It's more than just how many hits he's allowing on balls in play.

SoxxoS
06-24-2003, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by maurice
I gave Jimenez a "C," because his current stats are roughly consistent with his career numbers. Coming into this season, his career OBP was .344 and his career SB% was 57%. I expect that his OBP will go back up once he gets out of his current slump, but he'll never steal many bases.

And he can't play defense and is the ULTIMATE mental midget out there. He is the Rick Ankiel mentally.

By the way, where is Ankiel? Anyone know. What an awesome talent go to waste. Just a fun fact about him- I read somewhere that the year he got sent to single A (2001, I believe), he actually led his team in homeruns...

SoxxoS
06-24-2003, 11:51 PM
I just looked it up and...

holy crap

For the Tennessee Smokies-

1-5 8.03 ERA 41 hits in 41 innings, 40 runs 36 earned, 46 K's 44 walks

What a shame.

jeremyb1
06-25-2003, 02:32 AM
how you give marte anything less than an a- when he's sporting a 2.4 era is completely beyond me. i mean come on, how badly can you undervalue him? he's the only current pitcher in the bullpen with an era under 3.75!!! do you know how poor that is? everyone complains that we can't win close games and that we blow close games and then you completely refuse to give the proper credit to our only above average relief pitcher?!

and please don't get me started on using blown saves instead of hits, walks, home runs, strikeouts and/or era to evaluate a middle reliever. marte gave up all of 4 earned runs in 3 innings in his five blown saves. in three of the five blown saves he didn't allow an earned run. he comes in with the bases loaded and no outs in game where we're up a run, gets a strikeout, a flyball which the runner tags on and scores, and then another strikeout and he's failed because he gave up the lead?! give me a break.

Dadawg_77
06-25-2003, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
how you give marte anything less than an a- when he's sporting a 2.4 era is completely beyond me. i mean come on, how badly can you undervalue him? he's the only current pitcher in the bullpen with an era under 3.75!!! do you know how poor that is? everyone complains that we can't win close games and that we blow close games and then you completely refuse to give the proper credit to our only above average relief pitcher?!

and please don't get me started on using blown saves instead of hits, walks, home runs, strikeouts and/or era to evaluate a middle reliever. marte gave up all of 4 earned runs in 3 innings in his five blown saves. in three of the five blown saves he didn't allow an earned run. he comes in with the bases loaded and no outs in game where we're up a run, gets a strikeout, a flyball which the runner tags on and scores, and then another strikeout and he's failed because he gave up the lead?! give me a break.

First off, with the grading scale since people expected alot out of Marte coming into the season even if he has a great year, his grade is low.
Secondly ERA for a pitcher like Marte isn't the best stat in the world, since most of the runs he and like pitchers allow are charged to another pitcher they relieved. Marte hasn't been great this season at stopping IR from scoring this season.

Randar68
06-25-2003, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
And he can't play defense and is the ULTIMATE mental midget out there. He is the Rick Ankiel mentally.

By the way, where is Ankiel? Anyone know. What an awesome talent go to waste. Just a fun fact about him- I read somewhere that the year he got sent to single A (2001, I believe), he actually led his team in homeruns...

Ankiel was DH'ing on the days he didn't pitch. He still hasn't gotten the control totally back. I read a report recently that said he was looking a little better on occassion, but he would still have one or 2 bad innings or batters where he would just lose it. Cardinals won't give up on him, and they are hoping one day it just clicks.

daveb816
06-25-2003, 01:59 PM
'He loses tons of credit from me with those five blown saves.'


I'm disappointed in Koch, too, but he has only two blown saves this season - both vs. KC in April.

Hangar18
06-25-2003, 02:01 PM
I stand by my grades also. Im tough, but Fair.