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View Full Version : Another Three Way Trade Rumor with the Yanks


White Stocking
06-23-2003, 02:41 PM
I heard on the Sporting New Radio Network Mel Antonenn of the USA Today dish out the following trade rumor:

Pirates send Brian Giles to the Yankees for Jeff Weaver & Nick Johnson. The Pirates will send either Jeff Weaver or Kris Benson to the White Sox for Dan Wright and 2 minor leaguers.

This is sounds pretty vague and I don't really see why the Sox would be a part of this deal unless the Pirates want to unload a heavy contract - and why would our struggling Sox take on more $$$ unless they want to make a serious push and copy the Dodger philosophy of deal with a bad offense and hold the opposition to three runs a game...

If true, the stuggling Weaver is better than Wright, but how much better are we talking for $4 million a year?

Irishsox1
06-23-2003, 02:50 PM
No way to that trade. I would take Buck Weaver over Jeff Weaver anyday. Jeff Weaver should never play for the White Sox based on his actions in 2000.

Hullett_Fan
06-23-2003, 02:53 PM
Why don't we keep the Yankmees out of it and get Giles for our SOX!!!

Wright and 2 minor leaguers (and Konerko ) for Giles???

Gumshoe
06-23-2003, 02:59 PM
I wouldn't criticize us for going after Weaver. I'm not sure about Benson's total health, but Weaver clearly got screwed up by the Yankees. He can be solid I think. And I'm not convinced Wright is the real deal either. I think he walks FAR too many people. Our rotation is untouchable except for Wright. I might do that deal ... but it totally depends on what minor leaguers we have to give up ... why not just wright for weaver?


Gumshoe

balboner
06-23-2003, 03:03 PM
No way the Sox add payroll for their pitching staff right now. With Colon all but gone for next year, Wright likely figures heavily into the plans for the future rotation. Weaver and Benson have struggled mightily this year, and make alot of money.

Gumshoe
06-23-2003, 03:07 PM
adding cash is a big concern .. it seems like Beane and the Pirates GM like to pick on Kenny for his talent ... I still think Weaver can be SWEET, though

Hullett, you over last week's tantrum? hehe, just kidding

Gummy

Hangar18
06-23-2003, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
adding cash is a big concern .. it seems like Beane and the Pirates GM like to pick on Kenny for his talent ... I still think Weaver can be SWEET, though

Hullett, you over last week's tantrum? hehe, just kidding

Gummy

you threw Beanes name in there......Now Im suspicious.
Actually, Im suspicious of any trade the Sox make with the
Pirates. So in 2004 Rotation would be Fogg, Wells, Wright.
Then, they'll change their colors from Black and Gold to Black
and Silver too. That team wants to be the Sox really badly

maurice
06-23-2003, 03:23 PM
I have no problem trading Wright, and the Sox supposedly saved some cash in the budget for a mid-season deal, but wouldn't you rather get a good bat back in any trade?

A.T. Money
06-23-2003, 03:28 PM
Benson for Wright is an upgrade in my opinion.

Besides, Kris Benson and Billy Koch are best buddies. Maybe the addition of Benson will make Billy play better.

Tragg
06-23-2003, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by White Stocking
I heard on the Sporting New Radio Network Mel Antonenn of the USA Today dish out the following trade rumor:

Pirates send Brian Giles to the Yankees for Jeff Weaver & Nick Johnson. The Pirates will send either Jeff Weaver or Kris Benson to the White Sox for Dan Wright and 2 minor leaguers.

This is sounds pretty vague and I don't really see why the Sox would be a part of this deal unless the Pirates want to unload a heavy contract - and why would our struggling Sox take on more $$$ unless they want to make a serious push and copy the Dodger philosophy of deal with a bad offense and hold the opposition to three runs a game...

If true, the stuggling Weaver is better than Wright, but how much better are we talking for $4 million a year?

Good lord, Jeff Weaver is a complete fraud and always has been - spare us (I remember snickering at the rumored Crede plus several players for Weaver trade a year or so ago). The Yankees aren't moving heaven and earth to get him off of their team for nothing.

Wright is a young and promising pitcher with a typical profile - inconsistent, struggles with control, but throws a lot of good pitches. He's not our problem.

As for trading minor leaguers, I must ask, "which ones"?

How about a trade that actually addresses a current need, Center Field, or long term need, Shortstop?

Tragg
06-23-2003, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
adding cash is a big concern .. it seems like Beane and the Pirates GM like to pick on Kenny for his talent ... I still think Weaver can be SWEET, though

Hullett, you over last week's tantrum? hehe, just kidding

Gummy

There are many that agree with you, and it completely baffles me.

Can you explain why so many find a player who has a current era of 5.77 and with a career ERA of 4.44 so valuable?
Kenny does not need to trade our young pitchers.

hold2dibber
06-23-2003, 03:56 PM
(1) Kris Benson is a huge health risk based upon his past history. Weaver, according to some (many?) is a huge health risk because of his pitching mechanics.

(2) Wright has been better than Weaver and almost as "good" as Weaver this year: 2003 comparison (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_sortable_player_stats.jsp?section2=8&statSet2=1&statType=2&sortByStat=ERA&timeFrame=1&timeSubFrame=2003&baseballScope=mlb&isCompare=true&sitSplit=&venueID=&teamPosCode=1&box1=XXXX216106chaX&box2=XXXX213711nyaX&checkBoxTotal=0&playerLocator=benson).

(3) Benson is 28, Weaver is 26, Wright is 25.

(4) Benson makes $4.3 million, Weaver makes $4.15 million, Wright makes $325,000.

I don't see why the Sox would make this deal. Their pitching hasn't been the problem this year - the offense has been. Wright is younger, cheaper, arguably less of a health risk and just as "good" (at least this year) as the other guys. It is true that those guys have had more success than Wright in the past, but I think Wright has as good a chance as the other two to have success in the future (or almost as good a chance).

hold2dibber
06-23-2003, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
Good lord, Jeff Weaver is a complete fraud and always has been - spare us (I remember snickering at the rumored Crede plus several players for Weaver trade a year or so ago). The Yankees aren't moving heaven and earth to get him off of their team for nothing.

Wright is a young and promising pitcher with a typical profile - inconsistent, struggles with control, but throws a lot of good pitches. He's not our problem.

As for trading minor leaguers, I must ask, "which ones"?

How about a trade that actually addresses a current need, Center Field, or long term need, Shortstop?

Well said.

Mammoo
06-23-2003, 04:12 PM
Hell, I'd take Charley Weaver before Jeff Weaver. The Yankees want to get rid of him in the worst way!

http://www.homefly.com/charley-weaver.jpg

Tragg
06-23-2003, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by Mammoo
Hell, I'd take Charley Weaver before Jeff Weaver. The Yankees want to get rid of him in the worst way!

http://www.homefly.com/charley-weaver.jpg
I'll take Charley Weaver, only if they throw in Wally Cox!!

Hullett_Fan
06-23-2003, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
adding cash is a big concern .. it seems like Beane and the Pirates GM like to pick on Kenny for his talent ... I still think Weaver can be SWEET, though

Hullett, you over last week's tantrum? hehe, just kidding

Gummy

I'm fine now...no offense...just quit smoking so a little "on edge".

As for this subject, I'd only trade Wright for Offense and Giles would be great (or Drew if Cards make him available).

jeremyb1
06-23-2003, 04:43 PM
i think we'd get fleeced on the two prospects and that we can't afford that deal anyways. that said, either weaver or benson is a significant upgrade from wright.

Viva Magglio
06-23-2003, 05:03 PM
I am wary of this. Haven't we been burned by Pittsburgh enough times whenever KW has dealt with them?

Foulke You
06-23-2003, 05:13 PM
How about a 3 way deal that would bring the Sox Weaver from NY and Lofton from Pittsburgh? If we didn't overpay, that would be a huge statement from the organization that they are serious about winning and upgrading the team rather than White Flagging it in July. Lofton would give us a real leadoff threat/CF and Weaver is a big upgrade from Dan Wright in the #5 spot. Besides, many key guys from the 2000 brawl like Parque, Howry, Simas, and Foulke are gone anyways.

gosox41
06-23-2003, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by White Stocking
I heard on the Sporting New Radio Network Mel Antonenn of the USA Today dish out the following trade rumor:

Pirates send Brian Giles to the Yankees for Jeff Weaver & Nick Johnson. The Pirates will send either Jeff Weaver or Kris Benson to the White Sox for Dan Wright and 2 minor leaguers.

This is sounds pretty vague and I don't really see why the Sox would be a part of this deal unless the Pirates want to unload a heavy contract - and why would our struggling Sox take on more $$$ unless they want to make a serious push and copy the Dodger philosophy of deal with a bad offense and hold the opposition to three runs a game...

If true, the stuggling Weaver is better than Wright, but how much better are we talking for $4 million a year?

Seems like what I'd expect from Kenny Williams.....a lousy move. I'll go on record right now saying I wouldn't trade Wright straight up for Benson or Weaver let alone trading 2 more minor leaguers.

Bob

hold2dibber
06-23-2003, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
I am wary of this. Haven't we been burned by Pittsburgh enough times whenever KW has dealt with them?

KW has dealt with Pittsburgh twice. He got burned (badly) once (Ritchie deal) and burned them pretty badly once (Marte for Guerrier). I don't worry about KW dealing with Pittsburgh any more than I worry about KW dealing with any other team.

hold2dibber
06-23-2003, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
How about a 3 way deal that would bring the Sox Weaver from NY and Lofton from Pittsburgh? If we didn't overpay, that would be a huge statement from the organization that they are serious about winning and upgrading the team rather than White Flagging it in July. Lofton would give us a real leadoff threat/CF and Weaver is a big upgrade from Dan Wright in the #5 spot. Besides, many key guys from the 2000 brawl like Parque, Howry, Simas, and Foulke are gone anyways.

I completely agree about what a great statement it would be (and what a smart move it would be) for the Sox to actually trade to IMPROVE the team during the season this year. But I'm not sure that Lofton and Weaver are the guys to be dealing for. I don't know, but I suspect that Lofton wasn't a good influence in the clubhouse and wasn't a guy that Sox players would want to have around. And although Weaver has been a very good pitcher on occassion, he was terrible after the trade to the Yankees last year and has been terrible this year. And he is considered a health risk by some becauase of his mechanics. And he has a HUGE contract that would almost certainly preclude the Sox from re-signing Colon.

MRKARNO
06-23-2003, 05:52 PM
does anyone have ESPN insider because the free headline says: "Pirates, Yankees discuss blockbuster."

Jjav829
06-23-2003, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
does anyone have ESPN insider because the free headline says: "Pirates, Yankees discuss blockbuster."

The article on ESPN Insider only discusses the Yanks and Pirates saying the Yanks want Giles and Benson. They reference a piece written by Dan Graziano (http://www.nj.com/yankees/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-1/1056350060220860.xml) in the Newark Star-Ledger.

I'm kind of up in the air on this. First off, I agree that the Sox should be looking to get Giles, but supposedly in his contract he has the Sox listed as one of 6 teams that he can't be traded to. It's too bad because he would fit this team perfectly.

I still think Benson can be a good pitcher but at that price I don't know that it's worth the risk.

duke of dorwood
06-23-2003, 09:09 PM
:KW

You all know I dont trade unless I give up 3 players

TheRockinMT
06-23-2003, 10:47 PM
If the Sox trade with the Pirates it will be to get Giles. But, then again Reinsdorf always worshipped Steinbrenner.

MHOUSE
06-23-2003, 11:34 PM
Benson hasn't lived up to expectation and has too many injury worries to deal with. I wouldn't want him. I like Danny Wright and he has pitched well enough to win 4 times and terribly 3 times. They just haven't gotten him a 'W'. I like Weaver and I think he would fare better without the Yankee pressure and drama. He's a good pitcher but NY isn't the right fit. Giles would be good, but looks like he's going the other way. I would send Wright and a prospect for Weaver. Not two prospects, that's KW giving up too much again.

TRL
06-23-2003, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
How about a trade that actually addresses a current need, Center Field, or long term need, Shortstop?

Or a quality arm in the bullpen

MRKARNO
06-23-2003, 11:47 PM
If the redsox want Armando Benitez, why cant they take Billy Koch?

SouthSideHitman
06-24-2003, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
If the redsox want Armando Benitez, why cant they take Billy Koch?

I like that idea, but have two questions. Who would we get for him and can we include Konerko?

As for all this talk about the Pirates deal, I don't like how everyone is so quick to write Danny off. As we all know, he is prone to the big inning, but in just his last start he no hit one of the best offenses in baseball after his rocky first. Besides, he's got nowhere to go but up, especially as he distances himself from elbow surgery. I like his potential too much to trade him, especially when neither Benson or Weaver have given us real reason to think that they won't provide any more than high-priced mediocrity. Besides wouldn't it suck to see the Pirates start winning in a few years with a Wright, Fogg and Wells led rotation?

gosox41
06-24-2003, 08:26 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
If the redsox want Armando Benitez, why cant they take Billy Koch?

Watching Billy Koch may be too much for 28 year old GM's Theo Epstein's heart.

Bob

MHOUSE
06-24-2003, 11:35 AM
I don't think Wright had elbow surgery, he just rested it IIRC. I like his potential as well and he's the youngest of Benson, Weaver and himself. He won 14 games last year and if he got some support he could have 3 or 4 wins so far this year.

MRKARNO
06-24-2003, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Watching Billy Koch may be too much for 28 year old GM's Theo Epstein's heart.

Bob

If you think Koch is bad, you havent seen Armando benitez. He walked four straight batters against the yanks to give up a one run lead. He couldnt throw any strikes to the lefties, but got all the righties out. Koch at least gets some key outs. Benitez has blown more saves than Koch has, so be thankful we have Koch rather than benitez

Also, I dont think I ever want to see the white sox making a trade with the pirates or the A's for ten years

MarkEdward
06-24-2003, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by SouthSideHitman
I like that idea, but have two questions. Who would we get for him and can we include Konerko?


The Red Sox won't take Koch because Theo Epstein, unlike Kenny Williams, realizes that Billy Koch blows.

Also, forget about trading Konerko. Nobody would take on that much money for Konerko's type of numbers. Even in a good year, Konerko isn't worth 6 million.

hold2dibber
06-24-2003, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Even in a good year, Konerko isn't worth 6 million.

I guess that depends on your frame of reference. For the sake of argument, throwing out this year's numbers (since based upon this year's numbers, Konerko isn't worth a handful of Chuck E. Cheese tokens), I'd say there are a LOT of MLB players who make as much as or more than Konerko that aren't as good as Konerko.

gosox41
06-24-2003, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I guess that depends on your frame of reference. For the sake of argument, throwing out this year's numbers (since based upon this year's numbers, Konerko isn't worth a handful of Chuck E. Cheese tokens), I'd say there are a LOT of MLB players who make as much as or more than Konerko that aren't as good as Konerko.

There are a couple of things you should take into consideration before talking about Konerko not being overpaid.

1. The Sox signed him at the end of the 2002 season. The economics of baseball have changed dramatically. You can't comapre him to A-Rod's contract and argue he's 1/3 the player of him. Can't even do that with Delgado's contract.

Last year Frank had an OPS that awas .017 lower then Konerko's (if memory serves correct.) All I heard was how overpaid Frank was for only hitting .252. It's not that simple. And the thing about it, was Frank was hurting all season and that OPS (about .830) is below average for him while Konerko's happened in a career year and was about .848. For the record Konerko's OPS has been in about a .020 range in his career.

2. Statistically as a first basemen, Konerko is an average offensive player. He is easily replaceable and even if the Sox had to pay the minimum for a slightly lesser player, they could allocate that Konerko money at filling a bigger hole (CF??)

Unfortunately, KW is incapable of progressive thinking and the Sox have about $10 mill. of waste on their payroll between Konerko and Koch.

Also, for the record I was agains the Konerko signing on the day it was announced.

Bob

MarkEdward
06-24-2003, 11:06 PM
Good post, Bob. I pretty much agree with you completely.

gosox41
06-25-2003, 02:49 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Good post, Bob. I pretty much agree with you completely.

Thank you. What boggles my mind is how people continually overrate Konerko especially when compared to Thomas. Some of this is the medias fault. How many times last season did I hear about how wonderful Paulie was while also reading that Frank was washed up.

Bob

hold2dibber
06-25-2003, 07:40 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
There are a couple of things you should take into consideration before talking about Konerko not being overpaid.

1. The Sox signed him at the end of the 2002 season. The economics of baseball have changed dramatically. You can't comapre him to A-Rod's contract and argue he's 1/3 the player of him. Can't even do that with Delgado's contract.

Last year Frank had an OPS that awas .017 lower then Konerko's (if memory serves correct.) All I heard was how overpaid Frank was for only hitting .252. It's not that simple. And the thing about it, was Frank was hurting all season and that OPS (about .830) is below average for him while Konerko's happened in a career year and was about .848. For the record Konerko's OPS has been in about a .020 range in his career.

2. Statistically as a first basemen, Konerko is an average offensive player. He is easily replaceable and even if the Sox had to pay the minimum for a slightly lesser player, they could allocate that Konerko money at filling a bigger hole (CF??)

Unfortunately, KW is incapable of progressive thinking and the Sox have about $10 mill. of waste on their payroll between Konerko and Koch.

Also, for the record I was agains the Konerko signing on the day it was announced.

Bob

Well, I agree with just about everything you've said, but when PK was signed (IIRC), the economics of baseball had not yet changed. My recollection is PK was signed almost immediately at the end of last season. It wasn't until a few months later that it became obvious that the market had changed dramatically and a player of about the same caliber as Konerko (i.e., Kevin Milar or David Ortiz, etc.) could be had for MUCH cheaper. Of course, that doesn't change the fact that the Konerko signing was a big mistake.

And as to my statement about him being overpaid, my point is that if Konerko returns to his career norms (an OPS in the .830 range, 30 HRs and 90 RBIs, .290 avg.) he will still be overpaid, but he'll nonetheless be a useful player and not as overpaid as many, many others (examples - Jeffrey Hammonds making $8.2 mm this year, Jeter making nearly $20 mm per year through 2009, Tatis making over $5 mm, Chan Ho Park making about $10 mm, etc., etc., etc.) But nonetheless, it was not a smart signing and that money could have been used much more effectively (e.g., for what Konerko alone is making, I believe the Sox could have signed Daubach, Millar and Frank Catallanoto).

Paulwny
06-26-2003, 06:22 AM
After yesterday's yank/tribe trade

From Newsday:
Cashman said he'd continue to search for righthanded relief help through trades. Options such as Texas' Ugueth Urbina, the Mets' Armando Benitez and David Weathers, and the White Sox's Tom Gordon and Billy Koch would be more costly than yesterday's deal, however.