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Effigy
06-23-2003, 11:52 AM
Reds GM, Bowden on Sports Authority.

1. He said they are in talks to acquire a frontline starting pitcher. He didn't say who or from what team, but did say that it's someone who will be a FA at the end of the year, and that the other team wants to wait a month because they believe they're still in a pennant race right now. I'm a Reds fan, and I'm here to start no trouble, I was just wanting your thoughts. Many around Reds land think this person will be Colon. What do you guys think? On this interview Jimbo also stated Kearns and Dunn are untouchables, sadly (for me, I'm a huge Griffey fan, but if it helps our team to get pitching, I guess he would be the guy to go) Bowden didn't mention Griffey as untradable.

I know many of you will probally jump and bash Jr in a second, but I'm just here to start some discussion, so leave the bashing else well if you could.

Fire away.

voodoochile
06-23-2003, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by Effigy
Reds GM, Bowden on Sports Authority.

I'm a Reds fan, and I'm here to start no trouble, I was just wanting your thoughts. Many around Reds land think this person will be Colon. What do you guys think? On this interview Jimbo also stated Kearns and Dunn are untouchables, sadly (for me, I'm a huge Griffey fan, but if it helps our team to get pitching, I guess he would be the guy to go) Bowden didn't mention Griffey as untradable.

I know many of you will probally jump and bash Jr in a second, but I'm just here to start some discussion, so leave the bashing else well if you could.

Fire away.

Welcome aboard :D:

Rational fans of other teams are always welcome.

I doubt the Sox will trade Colon for Griffey because they won't want to take on his contract. No point in taking on that much payroll if you are planning on giving up on the season. More likely it would be for prospects and is will probably cost plenty as there are going to be a lot of teams wanting Colon if the Sox put him on the trading block.

ilsox7
06-23-2003, 11:55 AM
I'll probly get bashed by my fellow Sox fans here, but I LOVE Jr. I think a change of scenery would do him wonders.

ScottyTheSoxFan
06-23-2003, 11:56 AM
i still feel the sox could win the division, but if they trade colon, i dont think jerry riensdorf is gonna take on griffeys paycheck. he would try to drop payroll, not add to it.

Hangar18
06-23-2003, 11:57 AM
I dont mind Griffey. He probably NEVER shouldve left the
Mariners. Karma's a funny funny thing

Effigy
06-23-2003, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Welcome aboard :D:

Rational fans of other teams are always welcome.

I doubt the Sox will trade Colon for Griffey because they won't want to take on his contract. No point in taking on that much payroll if you are planning on giving up on the season. More likely it would be for prospects and is will probably cost plenty as there are going to be a lot of teams wanting Colon if the Sox put him on the trading block. Oh sorry, I didn't mean Griffey/Colon straight up. :o:

Heres a quote from Gammons: "There are three types of prospect deals," Cleveland's Mark Shapiro said. "The first is one in which you take back most of the salary, and in that case you should get one very good prospect and one good one. The second is where you take some of the contract, and there you should expect a good, but not great, prospect. The third is where the team trading for the player has to take all the contract, and in that case you probably won't get even a good prospect. That's the law of the land right now." So, if this fomula is correct, and the Reds want to acquire a Colon or a Ponson and have the ChiSox or O's pay the contract, it's going to cost the Reds a premium prospect and a mid-tier prospect. The question is which players fall into which categories.

I was also thinking the White Sox would actually want Griffey so they'd have a power hitting CF, because thats where they are weak at.

Thanks for the welcome.

Hangar18
06-23-2003, 11:59 AM
I find it Curious that the REDS, a "small-market" team is thinking about going after COLON for next year. I like when other teams think "Big", why cant the SOX do the same? IN the words of Jerry Manuel, I guess this speaks "Volumes" about
the Seriousness of our Mgmt of Putting a Winning Team Together.

MarkEdward
06-23-2003, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by Effigy

Heres a quote from Gammons: So, if this fomula is correct, and the Reds want to acquire a Colon or a Ponson and have the ChiSox or O's pay the contract, it's going to cost the Reds a premium prospect and a mid-tier prospect. The question is which players fall into which categories.


Unless you're willing to give up Kearns or Dunn, then no dice. Quickly looking, the Reds have no top prospects (Basham's the closest, and he's not having a good year in AA). The farm system is barren.

I'd totally do Dunn for Colon, though.

MarkEdward
06-23-2003, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
I find it Curious that the REDS, a "small-market" team is thinking about going after COLON for next year. I like when other teams think "Big", why cant the SOX do the same? IN the words of Jerry Manuel, I guess this speaks "Volumes" about
the Seriousness of our Mgmt of Putting a Winning Team Together.

Um, wouldn't the fact that the Sox acquired Colon in the off-season totally refute your argument?

TheRockinMT
06-23-2003, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
I find it Curious that the REDS, a "small-market" team is thinking about going after COLON for next year. I like when other teams think "Big", why cant the SOX do the same? IN the words of Jerry Manuel, I guess this speaks "Volumes" about
the Seriousness of our Mgmt of Putting a Winning Team Together.

We don't think big because the owner can't think past his bank ledger. I hope we don't trade Colon, but instead try and sign him to a multi-year contract. However, if we did trade him to the Reds I would love to see Griffey here too. He fills the need in CF and is a left handed power bat. I would then get rid of Jimenez and put Harris at 2B. Of course there are some would think Valentin should go and move Jimenez to SS, but I like Valentin and hope we keep him.

hold2dibber
06-23-2003, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
I find it Curious that the REDS, a "small-market" team is thinking about going after COLON for next year. I like when other teams think "Big", why cant the SOX do the same? IN the words of Jerry Manuel, I guess this speaks "Volumes" about
the Seriousness of our Mgmt of Putting a Winning Team Together.

(1) The blip that started this thread referred to the Reds getting Colon THIS year -- it said nothing about them keeping him "for next year."

(2) The Sox acquired Colon last off season; wasn't that "thinking big"?

(3) I think the Sox should try to sign Colon to a long term deal, regardless of whether they can get back in the race before the trading deadline. However, if they cannot/will not do so, I would certainly be interested in them at least exploring trades for him.

Hangar18
06-23-2003, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Um, wouldn't the fact that the Sox acquired Colon in the off-season totally refute your argument?

Yes, but the key is We TRADED for Colon. We didnt sign
him to a Long-Term Deal, which is what the Reds want to do.
We acquired Colon for the sole-purpose of seeing what happens
for year.

hose
06-23-2003, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Effigy
Reds GM, Bowden on Sports Authority.

I'm a Reds fan, and I'm here to start no trouble, I was just wanting your thoughts. Many around Reds land think this person will be Colon. What do you guys think? On this interview Jimbo also stated Kearns and Dunn are untouchables, sadly (for me, I'm a huge Griffey fan, but if it helps our team to get pitching, I guess he would be the guy to go) Bowden didn't mention Griffey as untradable.

I know many of you will probally jump and bash Jr in a second, but I'm just here to start some discussion, so leave the bashing else well if you could.

Fire away.



If the Sox are out of it and do trade Colon the Reds will have some competition.

Boston
New York- Big Stein will try and block Boston
St. Louis

just to name a few

MarkEdward
06-23-2003, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Yes, but the key is We TRADED for Colon.

He was under contract with another team (Expos) this past off-season. How else did you expect us to get him?

We didnt sign
him to a Long-Term Deal, which is what the Reds want to do.
We acquired Colon for the sole-purpose of seeing what happens
for year.

Who said that the Reds will sign him long-term? Bowden is quoted as saying that he wants a pitcher who will become a FA at the end of this year. To me, that sounds very rent-a-player-ish. Aside from that, the Reds' owner is a bigger tightwad than Riensdorf. No way does he sign Colon for big bucks.

Also, who says that we won't sign Colon long-term?

xil357
06-23-2003, 03:19 PM
I would agree to the deal under the following circumstances:

1. The Sox get swept by Minnesota and/or by the All-Star break are more than 10 games under 500 and/or 15 games behind the Twins. AND

2. The Reds agree to take on Paul Konerko and all of his contract, in exchange for the Sox taking on all of Griffey's contract. AND

one of the two following conditions is met:

3. There is a secret handshake agreement with Colon that he will re-sign with the Sox during the off-season because the Sox are committed to winning, but they realize that they can't with both bad defense and so many right-handed hitters. OR

4. This offseason, the Sox sign or trade for another flame-throwing ace starting pitcher equal to or better than Colon.

Then, Borchard could be moved to RF, with Maggs moving to LF, and Lee could move to DH or be traded for more pitching or as part of a package for a SS. Either Lee or Daubach would DH full-time, as Frank would be at 1B full-time.

The point is, Colon is a grade-A starting pitcher the likes of whom the Sox have not seen since McDowell, Fernandez or Alvarez. Unlike these former aces, however, Colon seems to have health on his side. He is too valuable to just trade away. He needs to be signed long-term by the Sox. However, if his services for the remainder of the year can be "loaned" to another team in exchange for the ability to improve the team in other areas, or is part of a plan to replace him with a proven ace through other means, I would accept such a deal. He is an asset to this team and no other teams have the right to negotiate with him. That is a huge advantage for which a premium must be exacted in exchanage for giving up such an asset.

Signing Colon or agreeing to a trade only as stipulated above would send a signal to Sox fans that management is serious about winning through re-loading.

maurice
06-23-2003, 03:28 PM
Nancy Reagan says, "Just say 'no' to Ken Griffey, Jr." His contract is MUCH worse than Pauly's, and (IMHO) he's more likely to continue sucking. I don't think I'd trade Colon unless I got a solid, young SS back.

Tragg
06-23-2003, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by Effigy
Reds GM, Bowden on Sports Authority.

I'm a Reds fan, and I'm here to start no trouble, I was just wanting your thoughts. Many around Reds land think this person will be Colon. What do you guys think? On this interview Jimbo also stated Kearns and Dunn are untouchables, sadly (for me, I'm a huge Griffey fan, but if it helps our team to get pitching, I guess he would be the guy to go) Bowden didn't mention Griffey as untradable.

I know many of you will probally jump and bash Jr in a second, but I'm just here to start some discussion, so leave the bashing else well if you could.

Fire away.

Effigy, do you have a young centerfielder or shortstop? Grizzled vets are not what we need.
I think a lot of teams would like colon - unfortunately most of them have little in the way of young talent with which to trade (boston - egads).

Effigy
06-23-2003, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
Effigy, do you have a young centerfielder or shortstop? Grizzled vets are not what we need.
I think a lot of teams would like colon - unfortunately most of them have little in the way of young talent with which to trade (boston - egads). Wily Mo Pena (21 years age, has to stay on the ML roster for one year, but can be demoted next season) is a CF we have and has been compared to Sammy Sosa (without the corked bat ;)). Steve Smitherman is an OF, who is 24 and tearing up double A more than Austin Kearns did when he was in double A.

We don't really have a good hitting SS in the minors besides Lopez.

gosox41
06-23-2003, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
He was under contract with another team (Expos) this past off-season. How else did you expect us to get him?



Who said that the Reds will sign him long-term? Bowden is quoted as saying that he wants a pitcher who will become a FA at the end of this year. To me, that sounds very rent-a-player-ish. Aside from that, the Reds' owner is a bigger tightwad than Riensdorf. No way does he sign Colon for big bucks.

Also, who says that we won't sign Colon long-term?

If the Sox make the playoffs, I may change my tune but I don't see JR competing with Stenbrenner for a FA.

Bob

gosox41
06-23-2003, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by xil357
I would agree to the deal under the following circumstances:

1. The Sox get swept by Minnesota and/or by the All-Star break are more than 10 games under 500 and/or 15 games behind the Twins. AND

2. The Reds agree to take on Paul Konerko and all of his contract, in exchange for the Sox taking on all of Griffey's contract. AND

one of the two following conditions is met:

3. There is a secret handshake agreement with Colon that he will re-sign with the Sox during the off-season because the Sox are committed to winning, but they realize that they can't with both bad defense and so many right-handed hitters. OR

4. This offseason, the Sox sign or trade for another flame-throwing ace starting pitcher equal to or better than Colon.



Are you aware of who is running this team. What you want to do can jump the Sox payroll to $80 mill. It may be what you want to see happen ,but I'd bet a lot of money the Sox payroll doesn't go anywhere near that much with the moves you mentioned or any other moves.

Also, what is everyone's obsession with Ken Griffey Jr.? He is great when healthy. But for whatever reason he is injury prone and not getting any younger. There may come a day in the next couple of seasons where he is no longer an effective CFer. Why commit $70 mill. to an injury prone player. The numbers don't lie. The last 3-4 years he has spent a ton of time on the DL. He's not worth the $50+ difference in contracts between him and Konerko.

Bob

fquaye149
06-23-2003, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Unless you're willing to give up Kearns or Dunn, then no dice. Quickly looking, the Reds have no top prospects (Basham's the closest, and he's not having a good year in AA). The farm system is barren.

I'd totally do Dunn for Colon, though.

i don't want dunn. i'm sorry to the reds fan, and no offense meant...one of my best friends is a die hard reds fan...but 20 some homeruns or not...dunn is flirting with mendoza like a motha...

the last thing we need is another slugger who can't hit his weight.

griffey on the other hand...without the salary concerns would be the best move in history maybe...a big gamble...but think of

a.) the fan excitement

b.) the idea that the team is committed to winning

c.) an almost even exchange for big bart...who is one of our most valuable players this year

d.) a huge antidote to our glaring weakness in cf

e.) a huge boon to our lineup...strengthening an already strong middle of the order...bat griff 3rd frank fourth maggs 5th...that's pretty intimidating.


sadly it will never happen. this sadness is intensified by the fact that it is the most natural thing in the world: team struggling on offense and centerfield trades pitcher while their rotation is solid to a team with no solid starting pitching for a proven hitter and gold glove centerfielder

but no, reinsdorf doesn't have the will, and williams doesn't have the means

rmusacch
06-23-2003, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
i don't want dunn. i'm sorry to the reds fan, and no offense meant...one of my best friends is a die hard reds fan...but 20 some homeruns or not...dunn is flirting with mendoza like a motha...

the last thing we need is another slugger who can't hit his weight.

griffey on the other hand...without the salary concerns would be the best move in history maybe...a big gamble...but think of

a.) the fan excitement

b.) the idea that the team is committed to winning

c.) an almost even exchange for big bart...who is one of our most valuable players this year

d.) a huge antidote to our glaring weakness in cf

e.) a huge boon to our lineup...strengthening an already strong middle of the order...bat griff 3rd frank fourth maggs 5th...that's pretty intimidating.


sadly it will never happen. this sadness is intensified by the fact that it is the most natural thing in the world: team struggling on offense and centerfield trades pitcher while their rotation is solid to a team with no solid starting pitching for a proven hitter and gold glove centerfielder

but no, reinsdorf doesn't have the will, and williams doesn't have the means

Colon for Griffey is not a even swap. Colon is much better and more valuable than Griffey at this point.

fquaye149
06-23-2003, 06:36 PM
it's true, but who is more valuable to us? pitching's not our problem right now

Jjav829
06-23-2003, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by Effigy
Reds GM, Bowden on Sports Authority.

I'm a Reds fan, and I'm here to start no trouble, I was just wanting your thoughts. Many around Reds land think this person will be Colon. What do you guys think? On this interview Jimbo also stated Kearns and Dunn are untouchables, sadly (for me, I'm a huge Griffey fan, but if it helps our team to get pitching, I guess he would be the guy to go) Bowden didn't mention Griffey as untradable.

I know many of you will probally jump and bash Jr in a second, but I'm just here to start some discussion, so leave the bashing else well if you could.

Fire away.

I won't bash Jr. I am a huge Griffey fan and would love to see him turn things around. If his contract wasn't such an issue, I would love to see him here. Unfortunately bringing Jr. here would mean other more valuable players (possibly Maggs) being left unsigned. I would love to get Kearns (or Dunn) but I realize that that has about as much chance of happening as Arod demanding to be traded to the White Sox immediately. Is there any possiblity of the Reds trading Aaron Boone? I know I heard talks about him possibly being traded earlier in the year. Was there any truth to those rumors? Although I hate his brother with a passion, I really like Aaron Boone. He would look nice in a Sox uni. Can he play shortstop full time or is this 3rd base thing for good?

BTW, Welcome aboard. It's always nice to get some good intelligent baseball talk with fans of another team.

Joel Perez
06-23-2003, 09:52 PM
One question to ask Effigy is the status of Jose Guillen...how is he doing?? Is he for real, ala Esteban Loaiza?

Maybe he can look good in pinstripes, but I like Adam Dunn a whole lot better, especially since he's a LH power hitter, something the Sox sorely need to bring balance to the lineup.

ScottyTheSoxFan
06-23-2003, 11:47 PM
Well JR better not just let colon walk at the end of the year. resign him or deal him, but get something out of him.

MarkEdward
06-24-2003, 12:15 AM
Originally posted by fquaye149
i don't want dunn. i'm sorry to the reds fan, and no offense meant...one of my best friends is a die hard reds fan...but 20 some homeruns or not...dunn is flirting with mendoza like a motha...


Batting average is probably the worst stat in baseball. I don't care if he's hitting just above .200; his OBP is .339 and he's slugging .513 (higher than anyone on our team not named Frank Thomas). And he's only 23! The guy's going to be a monster slugger for years to come: better than Borchard, better than Mags, better than Lee. If we can get him for just Bartolo Colon, it'd be quite the steal.

Getting Griffey would be a bad idea. He's signed through 2008, and he won't be good for all those years. Second, our farm system is stocked with CFs: Borchard, Webster, Anderson, and Reed. We don't need another center fielder clogging up the system.

gosox41
06-24-2003, 08:28 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Batting average is probably the worst stat in baseball. I don't care if he's hitting just above .200; his OBP is .339 and he's slugging .513 (higher than anyone on our team not named Frank Thomas). And he's only 23! The guy's going to be a monster slugger for years to come: better than Borchard, better than Mags, better than Lee. If we can get him for just Bartolo Colon, it'd be quite the steal.

Getting Griffey would be a bad idea. He's signed through 2008, and he won't be good for all those years. Second, our farm system is stocked with CFs: Borchard, Webster, Anderson, and Reed. We don't need another center fielder clogging up the system.

I would love to have Adam Dunn on this team, but no way are the Reds going to trade him straight up for Colon.

Bob