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voodoochile
06-22-2003, 11:17 PM
Okay, you seem to feel he should not be fired for the Sox woes this season. Here is why I think he should be...

1)Constant tinkering with the position players and the bullpen leading to poorly defined roles and places in the batting order.

2)Horrible fundamentals. At what point does at least SOME of this become the managers fault.

3)Constantly managing, "by the book" leaving the impression he has no feeling whatsoever for the players under his managment.

4)Managing the team based on what he perceives the players potential to be, not on how they have actually performed: Daubach not getting regular playing time, Konerko constantly pinch hitting/DH'ing, benching Frank because the pitcher is right handed, letting Willie Harris lead off, Josh Paul becoming a regular recently (okay, he has earned some PT with his recent play, but I'm still skeptical), Overusing whatever reliever he currently thinks is hot (Marte, Gordon, White) thus leading to them getting tired and the other guys being ill prepared to pitch when their time comes.

5)Today's double switch (yes, it was one decision, but it was so boneheadedly bad it has to be put on any list - and I still want to know who was going to play third if the Sox managed to tie or go ahead.)

6)His refusal to treat players like individuals and manage them accordingly - insisting that what is good for Josh Paul is good for Frank Thomas.

7)His inability to get the team prepared for big series or motivate them to play hard every day (unless we are fortunate to be playing the flubbies that weekend).

I am sure there are others. Maybe some of the other posters who think he deserves to be fired can help me out.

It isn't about one play, or one series, or even one season. It is watching him work his "magic" for several years and coming to the realization that he would rather be thought a genius than win games. Okay, that's just my opinion, but I didn't come by it because of one f'n loss to the flubbies...

Meixner007
06-22-2003, 11:20 PM
i think you pretty much hit the nail on the head. The only thing I have to add is the fact that it's not one play that get's us upset, but rather a culmination of bad managerial decisions. When was the last time we talked after a game and said, "that was a GREAT move by manuel...really outdid himself this time." For the life of me, I can't remember.

ilsox7
06-22-2003, 11:26 PM
People tend to take on the attitude of their leaders. Many companies are like this, and so it sports for the most part. While Jerry's laid back, chill attitude may work in some instances, it doesn't appear to work in this one. What's one of the biggest complaints about this team, whether or not you want manuel to be fired? That they lack the fire and passion for winning. Well, look how our manager acts. I'm sure he wants to win, but how often do you see this guy have that PASSION for winning? I mean, look at the Cubs' attitude since Dusty took over. They speak their minds and aren't afraid to stir the pot a lil. The Sox just take shots at each other and the fans. Joe Torre publically challenges some of his players, knowing it will motivate them. The Twins' manager (can't spell his name so I won't try) is a fired up, high charged guy, and look at his team. They are one feisty bunch. Even Tony LaRussa isn't afraid to get into a flap now and then. The bottom line for me is that the leadership isn't there, hence a leadership change needs to be made. This reasoning along with everything else said previously.

MHOUSE
06-22-2003, 11:28 PM
Yeah you got them all. He doesn't know his team. I watch on tv and I know the players and their tendecies and stuff better than he does. It's so obvious sometimes that he is a moron. Also add arguing dumb calls and getting tossed for no reason and then sleeping through big decisions like Crede's "foul" homerun.

MHOUSE
06-22-2003, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by ilsox7
People tend to take on the attitude of their leaders. Many companies are like this, and so it sports for the most part. While Jerry's laid back, chill attitude may work in some instances, it doesn't appear to work in this one. What's one of the biggest complaints about this team, whether or not you want manuel to be fired? That they lack the fire and passion for winning. Well, look how our manager acts. I'm sure he wants to win, but how often do you see this guy have that PASSION for winning? I mean, look at the Cubs' attitude since Dusty took over. They speak their minds and aren't afraid to stir the pot a lil. The Sox just take shots at each other and the fans. Joe Torre publically challenges some of his players, knowing it will motivate them. The Twins' manager (can't spell his name so I won't try) is a fired up, high charged guy, and look at his team. They are one feisty bunch. Even Tony LaRussa isn't afraid to get into a flap now and then. The bottom line for me is that the leadership isn't there, hence a leadership change needs to be made. This reasoning along with everything else said previously.

And when Cleveland's Eric(?) Wedge outmanaged Jerry in that extra innings game I was like dude this is the youngest manager in baseball easily and obviously outdoing a "veteran" "baseball guy" like Jerry. Ridiculous. He has way more than 9 lives. Any other management would have canned his @$$ last year.

Kilroy
06-22-2003, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by ilsox7
People tend to take on the attitude of their leaders. Many companies are like this, and so it sports for the most part. While Jerry's laid back, chill attitude may work in some instances, it doesn't appear to work in this one.

The SF Giants are tied for 1st place, right? Ray Durham played for Manuel, and plays for Felipe Alou now. He's on record saying that Manuel, the laid back guy according to you, is a lot more firey than Alou. So how do you account for that?

The firey guy vs. laid back guy is just about the weakest argument there is for firing Manuel.

ilsox7
06-22-2003, 11:38 PM
OK, I didn't say that you HAVE to be a firey manager to win. By no means is that true. There have been plenty of laid back managers who have won. Alou fits that mold. But do you see us winning? Other than 2000, we haven't won under Manuel. A manager's job is to be a leader. So criticizing his leadership style when things have been bad for 2 1/2 years now doesn't seem like a weak argument to me.

Kilroy
06-22-2003, 11:44 PM
Originally posted by ilsox7
So criticizing his leadership style when things have been bad for 2 1/2 years now doesn't seem like a weak argument to me.

You ignore the fact that the players have played like **** for 2 1/2 years.

I'm not Manuel's biggest fan, but I don't wanna see him canned as a token move like firing the hitting coach. If they did launch him and the team still blew, then who would get the blame?

ilsox7
06-22-2003, 11:47 PM
The player's have played like *****. But part of that falls on manuel. We've already gone into fundamentals and line-ups. You are absolutely correct though, players haven't lived up to their expectations. However, we cannot fire 25 players. And it's not like manuel has been such a great manager or even average. He's been below average, and change has to start somewhere. I'd like to see manuel go ASAP and see how this team reacts. Based upon what happens, you continue to make adjustments. Will firing manuel turn this into a World Series team? Nope. But I think it's the most logical place to start.

Kilroy
06-22-2003, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by ilsox7
I'd like to see manuel go ASAP and see how this team reacts. Based upon what happens, you continue to make adjustments. Will firing manuel turn this into a World Series team? Nope. But I think it's the most logical place to start.

I don't wanna see any mid-season experiments. This team is not out of it by any stretch of the imagination, and and it's a well-documented fact, that once you get to the playoffs, anything can happen.

Further, the Sox have won 9 of the last 15, and 3 of the last 5 series including a split against teams that are, or were in 1st place. The manager you want to can is sending out a team that competes with the best teams and has been beating them.

Meixner007
06-22-2003, 11:55 PM
it would have been 5 out of 5 if solid managing was taking place.

ilsox7
06-23-2003, 12:02 AM
Hell, if we get to the playoffs with Bart, Esteban and MB, we have a decent shot. I just think that we have a much better chance of getting there with a different manager. And I don't think it will adversely effect this team. I mean, have you ever heard any of our players vehemently standing behind manuel? All I usually hear is: "Whatever decision he makes, I stand behind it."

It may just be me, but I don't think this team really enjoys playing for manuel. I don't know why b/c I am not there every day, but I think Daubach said it best when he said things are just "different" here.

Oh well, we've beat a dead horse pretty good. Nothing we say or do really matters. I just like our chances better with a different skipper. That said, Go Sox!

jeremyb1
06-23-2003, 01:41 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Okay, you seem to feel he should not be fired for the Sox woes this season. Here is why I think he should be...

as most likely the most notable "manuel defender" on the board, i want to make it clear that for the most part i couldn't care less if manuel were fired tommorow, especially if the new manager were along the lines of backman as opposed to someone like fregosi. while i disagree with a lot of the items on your list, i agree with some of them too. i don't defend everything manuel has done. i wish he would sit jimenez less often, let daubach face lefties more often, pitch marte more often, and give more regular work to guys like glover, sanders, and white. i also wish he would bunt less often especially when we have a good hitter like jimenez up or a player who clearly can't bunt like crede up. i also feel that while i am a fan of his laid back demeaner, it may not longer be effective with this club at this point in time not because he's a bad manager but because he's not the right fit.

the reason i defend manuel so often is because many people's criticism of him is completely illogical. whenever we lose a close game it is because manuel has made the incorrect pitching decision. people frequently contradict themselves when criticising manuel such as today when a week after complaining he didn't realize colon was tiring after 90 pitches and should've had pitchers warming in the bullpen starting in the 8th inning or maybe even should've pulled colon to start the 9th, today people claim he made an incorrect decision by pulling manuel in favor of one of the best relievers in baseball after 97 pitches when colon's hand was bothering him, he was "starting to tighten up", and he advised coop to have the pen ready. i don't need everyone to love or like jerry manuel. i only wish people would be more fair and logical in their criticism.

MarqSox
06-23-2003, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
I don't wanna see any mid-season experiments. This team is not out of it by any stretch of the imagination, and and it's a well-documented fact, that once you get to the playoffs, anything can happen.

Further, the Sox have won 9 of the last 15, and 3 of the last 5 series including a split against teams that are, or were in 1st place. The manager you want to can is sending out a team that competes with the best teams and has been beating them.

I agree. If the Sox miss the playoffs, you won't hear any argument out of me. In fact, you wouldn't have heard an argument out of meif they'd fired him last offseason. But they didn't, and the chances are greater that the Sox make the playoffs under Manuel than under a replacement ... when was the last time a team fired their manager and made the playoffs? Very rare indeed ...

JUGGERNAUT
06-23-2003, 10:28 AM
The play at the plate was the game breaker

Not the removal of Colon. If you can't trust your bullpen in the 8th & 9th innings you're not going to the post-season.
Period.

This is the 4th time now I have seen a BAD play at the plate executed by the SOX.

Make all the excuses you want, but it's JM 's JOB to PREPARE these games for GAME DAY.

After the first blunder of a play at the plate a good MANAGER has the team practicing those situations AFTER the game. I don't give a **** what the players think. They are suppose to be professionals.

Consistently now the SOX cutoff men & OF players are not getting the throw down near the 3rd base line. That's where it needs to be. Our catchers always seem to be 5-7 ft in front of the plate. There is no option to block the plate or tag a runner on a close play when THEY ARE THAT FAR OUT OF POSITION.

If JM is worried about the ball getting away, that's why the pitcher is suppose to back up the THROW.

I'M SO SICK AND TIRED OF THE LITTLE LEAGUE PLAY UNDER JM's TUTALAGE.

It's way PAST TIME FOR HIM TO GO.

voodoochile
06-23-2003, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by JUGGERNAUT
The play at the plate was the game breaker

Not the removal of Colon. If you can't trust your bullpen in the 8th & 9th innings you're not going to the post-season.
Period.

This is the 4th time now I have seen a BAD play at the plate executed by the SOX.

Make all the excuses you want, but it's JM 's JOB to PREPARE these games for GAME DAY.

After the first blunder of a play at the plate a good MANAGER has the team practicing those situations AFTER the game. I don't give a **** what the players think. They are suppose to be professionals.

Consistently now the SOX cutoff men & OF players are not getting the throw down near the 3rd base line. That's where it needs to be. Our catchers always seem to be 5-7 ft in front of the plate. There is no option to block the plate or tag a runner on a close play when THEY ARE THAT FAR OUT OF POSITION.

If JM is worried about the ball getting away, that's why the pitcher is suppose to back up the THROW.

I'M SO SICK AND TIRED OF THE LITTLE LEAGUE PLAY UNDER JM's TUTALAGE.

It's way PAST TIME FOR HIM TO GO.

Why did you post the exact same thing twice? Just curious. Can I delete one of them?

harwar
06-23-2003, 10:53 AM
Everything that Voodoo said is right on.I'd just like to add that Manuel seems to have bad luck also.Nothing can go right for this guy.Winners need not only great ballclubs but they need lady luck on their side also.

voodoochile
06-23-2003, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by harwar
Everything that Voodoo said is right on.I'd just like to add that Manuel seems to have bad luck also.Nothing can go right for this guy.Winners need not only great ballclubs but they need lady luck on their side also.

Some of that comes back to Jerry himself, IMO. Luck isn't a real force of nature. The breaks even out over time. However, when your manager continuously makes bad decisions that effects a teams energy (like swapping places in the batting order and benching players every second day) it stifles a team flow and it's energy level. Then the players don't manage to make the "little plays" or have the intensity they need to. That is when "luck" starts going against your team.

MRKARNO
06-23-2003, 11:57 AM
It's arguable if he should be fired, but we all know that he wont be fired. There were times this year, much worse than now, that he had to be fired, but Kenny Williams kept him on board, which shows that he is staying. This constant arguing about if Manuel should go is garbage. Keep him unless we're 100% out of it. Replace him after the season if we dont make the playoffs. We're not out of it entirely, so we're keeping him

MarkEdward
06-23-2003, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
[B]Okay, you seem to feel he should not be fired for the Sox woes this season. Here is why I think he should be...

First, let me say that I agree with MarqueSox and Jeremy. If we don't make the playoffs this year, then Manuel should be fired. Also, if the Sox fired Manuel and replaced him with somebody like Davey Johnson or Bobby Valentine, then I'd be happy. I'm still skeptical on Wally Backman.

1)Constant tinkering with the position players and the bullpen leading to poorly defined roles and places in the batting order.

He has to tinker because our offense is so horrid. If Konerko, Crede, Harris, or Rowand were hitting like they should, then we'd see a more stable lineup.

2)Horrible fundamentals. At what point does at least SOME of this become the managers fault.

Then isn't this also the coaches fault? If you blame Manuel for poor fundamentals, shouldn't you also blame Walker, Cooper, Santana, and Kimm?

3)Constantly managing, "by the book" leaving the impression he has no feeling whatsoever for the players under his managment.

95% of manager go "by the book." It's hard to find a manager who doesn't go "by the book."

4)Managing the team based on what he perceives the players potential to be, not on how they have actually performed: Daubach not getting regular playing time, Konerko constantly pinch hitting/DH'ing, benching Frank because the pitcher is right handed, letting Willie Harris lead off, Josh Paul becoming a regular recently (okay, he has earned some PT with his recent play, but I'm still skeptical), Overusing whatever reliever he currently thinks is hot (Marte, Gordon, White) thus leading to them getting tired and the other guys being ill prepared to pitch when their time comes.

1. Up until a few weeks ago, Daubach was also hitting under .200
2. Konerko is making over six million this year. Kenny Williams will not have him rot on the bench.
3. Unless I'm mistaken, Frank has only been benched once in the past few weeks (and that's because Thomas himself didn't feel comfortable against Clement).
4. Jimenez is in a slump, and Harris is our only other viable lead-off man.
5. Josh Paul is far from getting regular playing time.
6. Our bullpen has been so bad this that Manuel has to keep re-structuring it.

5)Today's double switch (yes, it was one decision, but it was so boneheadedly bad it has to be put on any list - and I still want to know who was going to play third if the Sox managed to tie or go ahead.)

Yeah, I thought that was a bit odd too.

7)His inability to get the team prepared for big series or motivate them to play hard every day (unless we are fortunate to be playing the flubbies that weekend).

I can't buy this. You're telling me that the reason for Konerko's, Crede's, Harris', and Rowand's season-long slump is because Maunel "can't get them up" for the games?

Hangar18
06-23-2003, 12:15 PM
Point #3 is the one that strikes a chord with me. Sometimes
as a Manager, youve got to Manage from your GUT. My gut
tells me KOCH, GORDON, and WHITE STINK. you cant put them
in a position right now where they can FAIL, and Fall further
into the negative abyss theyre in right now. Unfortuneately,
MARTE also NOW STINKS. THe first thing I thought was....
WERE going to lose this game. Who else could we have trusted
out of the Pen? Noone. this Reflects BADLY on KOCH AND
GORDON ESPECIALLY. For not Following his HUNCH, which to
me was screaming, KEEP COLON IN THERE. We cant let our
BullPen Lose this one for us.........which they did. Martes pitch
was so terrible, so over the middle, and was so ripe to be hit,
you had to wonder was this game Thrown? probably not, but
thats how Poorly our Bullpen has been.

Fridaythe13thJason
06-23-2003, 12:17 PM
I feel bad that some of you can't enjoy success. That's what baseball is about...enjoyment, you know. Lately, the Sox have been beating good teams, and playing tough baseball on a winning pace. Their two division rivals above them are very mediocre. Does that not give you some level of excitement? Who knows what happens in the playoffs? Don't anyone tell me that you thought the Angels would win the World Series last year...because you're lying.

BTW, if anyone mentioned Bobby Valentine again, I'll scream. He was consistently ridiculed by the entire country for being awful. He had tons of talent every year, and didn't do a thing with it. There is no reason for you to want him on this team.

Since you guys can play the speculation game, I can too...what happens if the Sox make the playoffs and win a series for the first time in a million years. What do you say then? Fire Jerry?

raul12
06-23-2003, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
I don't wanna see any mid-season experiments. This team is not out of it by any stretch of the imagination, and and it's a well-documented fact, that once you get to the playoffs, anything can happen.



do you work for the white sox PR machine? it seems like you've bought the load of crap that a token playoff appearance and getting to the WS based on luck and not skill is acceptable.

i suppose you're also up for starting another 5-year rebuilding plan with a bunch of can't miss youngsters too?

btw, it's good to be back. work's been @#$# nuts, and it's finally slowing down.

Fridaythe13thJason
06-23-2003, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by raul12
do you work for the white sox PR machine? it seems like you've bought the load of crap that a token playoff appearance and getting to the WS based on luck and not skill is acceptable.


If this team got to the world series based on anything, I would be the happiest man around. Call it luck, call it anything, that would be amazingly thrilling. If you don't think so, then honestly, you're not a fan of the Chicago White Sox.

Kilroy
06-23-2003, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by raul12
do you work for the white sox PR machine? it seems like you've bought the load of crap that a token playoff appearance and getting to the WS based on luck and not skill is acceptable.

i suppose you're also up for starting another 5-year rebuilding plan with a bunch of can't miss youngsters too?

btw, it's good to be back. work's been @#$# nuts, and it's finally slowing down.

Even the most skilled teams need to have luck to succeed. Even if its just being lucky that no important players suffer injuries.

I don't work for anybody's PR machine, but I know that if Manuel is fired midseason, then this season will be over.

I'd rather have the Sox win the division and play in the playoffs if for nothing other than for the young players to get that experience. But again, once they get there, anything can happen.

Firing Manuel now would be the Sox conceding the division.

raul12
06-23-2003, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by SoCalUIC
If this team got to the world series based on anything, I would be the happiest man around. Call it luck, call it anything, that would be amazingly thrilling. If you don't think so, then honestly, you're not a fan of the Chicago White Sox.

oh i agree. but to base your "strategy" on luck panning out--aka, the Cubs--then you've got problems. and with Mr. Chaos and friends at the helm, luck has a tendency to be bad. the farther the playoffs go, the more important managing becomes. Every little at-bat, every little decision is magnified more and more. with our luck, JM would be sawing logs on the bench with men on first and third, one out, and walnuts up to bat. oops, forgot to capitalize....I hope someone will forgive me. I'll try to remember from now on.

voodoochile
06-23-2003, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
He has to tinker because our offense is so horrid. If Konerko, Crede, Harris, or Rowand were hitting like they should, then we'd see a more stable lineup.

Then isn't this also the coaches fault? If you blame Manuel for poor fundamentals, shouldn't you also blame Walker, Cooper, Santana, and Kimm?

95% of manager go "by the book." It's hard to find a manager who doesn't go "by the book."

1. Up until a few weeks ago, Daubach was also hitting under .200
2. Konerko is making over six million this year. Kenny Williams will not have him rot on the bench.
3. Unless I'm mistaken, Frank has only been benched once in the past few weeks (and that's because Thomas himself didn't feel comfortable against Clement).
4. Jimenez is in a slump, and Harris is our only other viable lead-off man.
5. Josh Paul is far from getting regular playing time.
6. Our bullpen has been so bad this that Manuel has to keep re-structuring it.

I can't buy this. You're telling me that the reason for Konerko's, Crede's, Harris', and Rowand's season-long slump is because Maunel "can't get them up" for the games?

1)Maybe some of those slumps are because of Manuel constantly moving guys in and out of the lineup and changing the place they bat in the lineup. Just a thought. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems that it might be part of the problem.

2)Who picked those coaches? I am not adverse to dumping most of them. I think Cooper has done a good job and Walker is clearly an improvement over Ward if for nothing else than he has brought Crede out of his slump.

3)I have no problem with managing mostly by the book, but JM's gut (when he uses it) has proven to be terrible. He has NO sense of how the players play in different situaions, none.

4)A)Basing your decisions on who to play because of how much they are paid is ridiculous. If KW is still in the clubhouse to that extent, then he needs to be fired also, but that is a different thread.
B)Until Harris proves he can take a walk and reach base 33% of the time, he should be NOWHERE near the leadoff spot - I don't care how fast he is or how much he resembles a prototypical leadoff hitter in terms of potential. Anyone with baseball sense will tell you that. They'd be better off with Valentin leading off and taking their chances, IMO.
C)You know for a fact that Frank went to JM and said, "Don't play me against Clement" or are you speculating?
D)Josh Paul has been playing every second day (roughly) for the past week. Like I said, he is actually performing at present, but his past numbers are enough to justify making him a once a week replacement, IMO.
E)Maybe if Manuel would use the bullpen with some consistency they wouldn't be all over the place like they are. No other team has this many guys trying to occasionally fill certain roles. The only guy who knows his role is Koch. The rest of them take their innings where they can.

6)No, I don't think that is the reason they haven't perfomed up to expectations, but the fact remains. Most of the time this team plays with little fire. When they do, look at how well they do. Manuel has failed miserably in this department. The term "corpseball" didn't just appear out of thin air for no reason at all. It was invented to describe the team's lazy attitude and play. It has been going on for years. Look at the Twins and the Royals. Heck, look at the flubbies. Manuel gets the team up for one series every year - the flubbies at Wrigley. If he could find a way to get them to play at that level of intensity on a consistent basis, they would win a lot more games. He takes the attitude that it is a long season and the players don't start playing until, "their backs are against the wall" (read: WAY too late).

Of course all of this is JMHO...

Gumshoe
06-23-2003, 01:16 PM
Did you see how far back Jose was? That was a great throw, just a bit on the 1st base side! They played the relay perfectly. When you turn and fire with the gun that jose has, you can't be mad that it was a bit up the line ... he nailed miller on a perfect one the day before. Too bad you couldn't flip flop those throws though, because obviously we had plenty of time for the Miller throw and VERY little for the Grudz throw.

The Sox defense this weekend was virtually flawless, and we came up with huge DP's ... Valentin showed his range and arm a lot. Valentin is FINE at short. Those errors are OVERRATED, way overrated.

Let's see what JM does for the Minnesota series lineup wise. I love watching Loaiza pitch> HUGE GAME 1 vs. Reed

Gumshoe

Hangar18
06-23-2003, 01:36 PM
Im hearing 2 good arguments here. "Luck" being involved vs Keeping/Firing Manuel. I think it might be too late to fire him,
shouldve been done in the offseason. We may have to stick
with this guy now........ Dammit, lets Sweep a series for a change...

gosox41
06-23-2003, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by SoCalUIC
I feel bad that some of you can't enjoy success. That's what baseball is about...enjoyment, you know. Lately, the Sox have been beating good teams, and playing tough baseball on a winning pace. Their two division rivals above them are very mediocre. Does that not give you some level of excitement? Who knows what happens in the playoffs? Don't anyone tell me that you thought the Angels would win the World Series last year...because you're lying.

BTW, if anyone mentioned Bobby Valentine again, I'll scream. He was consistently ridiculed by the entire country for being awful. He had tons of talent every year, and didn't do a thing with it. There is no reason for you to want him on this team.

Since you guys can play the speculation game, I can too...what happens if the Sox make the playoffs and win a series for the first time in a million years. What do you say then? Fire Jerry?

In answer to your question at the end of the post, yes, I'd fire JM if the Sox win a playoff series. Playoffs are luck anyway, it's getting their that defines a good team

Now, about the Sox being better as of late. That is a relative startement. According to the Trib., on May 28 the Sox were 7 1/2 games out. It's now 25 days later and the Sox are 5 1/2 games out. In that stretch Minnesota has gone 9-14. That means the Sox have gone 11-12. I hardly consider that good, though it's better then what the Soxwere doing before then. If memory serves correct their failure of executing the simplest of plays plus stupid base running has cost them at least 3 games. If they won those, that would get me excited. I don't care that the Sox hung in with first place teams. I care that the Sox failed to win winnable games against teams but consistently failed to get down a bunt of hit behind a runner or come through with a clutch hit. Those are signs of a good team.

Also, keep in mind the Sox are 5 1/2games out in the weakest divisison in baseball. Right now the Sox have 2 stud starters plus a guy (Buehrle) who is pitching better then his record indicates. Yet they are 5 games under .500 in a weak division. Thank goodness we're in the Central and not the West, or else we'd be a lot further out and talking more realistically about how good/bad the Sox really are.

Bob

xil357
06-23-2003, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
You ignore the fact that the players have played like **** for 2 1/2 years.

I'm not Manuel's biggest fan, but I don't wanna see him canned as a token move like firing the hitting coach. If they did launch him and the team still blew, then who would get the blame?

Yes.

He tinkers because he has no choice. He has a roster full of 1B/DH slow-footed neanderthals (Frank, Daubach, Lee, Konerko). The team defense is marginal and is exceptionally poor up the middle (other than Olivo). The team has almost no speed ousdide of Harris. The entire team has not hit to its established career stats. If the team were scoring runs at the rate it has been to date but played great defense and had speed, they would be in first place. If the team played D the way they have been but hit the way they did during the previous two or three seasons, they also would be in first place. He can't play the NL game with this roster. He tries to play the AL game but the hitters aren't hitting.

The bullpen has been sporadic, but name a team that DOESN'T have bullpen issues. (Think about it.... What kind of idiot GM would put his best pitchers in the bullpen? The best pitchers are groomed to be starters or, if they don't have a huge arsenal of pitches but have one or two great pitches, they are made into closers. Those who are marginal are sent to the bullpen.) So, NEVER count on the bullpen to be the strength of a team. If a GM or manager says that they are counting on the bullpen to be a source of strength on the team, they might as well admit they are going to suck. If Marte stikes out the side in the 8th and then Koch closes out the 9th, Manuel would be hailed as a genius everywhere but on this board. If he can be accused of over-working the bullpen, have you considered that maybe he doesn't want to resort to using the really bad pitchers, of which this team has more than its fair share?

Manuel may not be the firebrand everyone wants. But he only can manage what he is given on the roster. Given the circumstances, it is amazing that they are only 5.5 games out of first. They say you can't fire 25 players, but you can dump the useless parts and replace them with useful players.

Mark my word. If Manuel gets fired, he will be snatched up by a smart GM with a balanced roster that can pitch and play D, and that team will win consistently.

MarkEdward
06-23-2003, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
1)Maybe some of those slumps are because of Manuel constantly moving guys in and out of the lineup and changing the place they bat in the lineup. Just a thought. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems that it might be part of the problem.

I thought the lineups were stable until Konerko and Rowand started hit poorly. I could be wrong, though. I could probably check out some game logs from early in the season, but I'm due at work in 20 minutes. I'll check 'em out later.

2)Who picked those coaches? I am not adverse to dumping most of them. I think Cooper has done a good job and Walker is clearly an improvement over Ward if for nothing else than he has brought Crede out of his slump.

I assumed that Williams picked the coaches. I'd blame Santana and Kimm for our fundamental problems more than Manuel (although I don't think we're that bad in fundamentals.

3)I have no problem with managing mostly by the book, but JM's gut (when he uses it) has proven to be terrible. He has NO sense of how the players play in different situaions, none.

I'd have to see some examples of this in order to make a clear judgment.

4)A)Basing your decisions on who to play because of how much they are paid is ridiculous. If KW is still in the clubhouse to that extent, then he needs to be fired also, but that is a different thread.

Oh, I totally agree. Konerko should be sitting, big contract or no. Although, many players play just because of the number of zeroes in their contract. Vinny Castilla, Greg Vaughn (in Tampa), Mo Vaughn, Sterling Hitchcock.

B)Until Harris proves he can take a walk and reach base 33% of the time, he should be NOWHERE near the leadoff spot - I don't care how fast he is or how much he resembles a prototypical leadoff hitter in terms of potential. Anyone with baseball sense will tell you that. They'd be better off with Valentin leading off and taking their chances, IMO.

If it were up to me, I'd bat Jimenez first and Thomas second. Harris shouldn't be hitting first, so I guess that's a point against Maunel. Although Valentin's not making a great case for lead-off hitter (.320 OBP).

C)You know for a fact that Frank went to JM and said, "Don't play me against Clement" or are you speculating?

Wasn't there a quote circulating around here saying Thomas didn't feel comfortable against Clement? Maybe I'm wrong, but it's not like that move hurt us much...

D)Josh Paul has been playing every second day (roughly) for the past week. Like I said, he is actually performing at present, but his past numbers are enough to justify making him a once a week replacement, IMO.

Prior to that, didn't Olivo start for like two weeks in a row? Anyway, Paul was just sent down, so this is a moot point.

E)Maybe if Manuel would use the bullpen with some consistency they wouldn't be all over the place like they are. No other team has this many guys trying to occasionally fill certain roles. The only guy who knows his role is Koch. The rest of them take their innings where they can.

Is there evidence showing that relief pitchers pitch better in "defined" roles?

6)No, I don't think that is the reason they haven't perfomed up to expectations, but the fact remains. Most of the time this team plays with little fire.

I don't know. To me, it seems like you're blaming Manuel for the players playing like crap against the Royals and Twins. I can't buy that.

Sorry for the quick and dirty responses. I'm on my way out, but just wanted to get this post in. Talk to you later...

gosox41
06-23-2003, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by xil357
Yes.

He tinkers because he has no choice. He has a roster full of 1B/DH slow-footed neanderthals (Frank, Daubach, Lee, Konerko). The team defense is marginal and is exceptionally poor up the middle (other than Olivo). The team has almost no speed ousdide of Harris. The entire team has not hit to its established career stats. If the team were scoring runs at the rate it has been to date but played great defense and had speed, they would be in first place. If the team played D the way they have been but hit the way they did during the previous two or three seasons, they also would be in first place. He can't play the NL game with this roster. He tries to play the AL game but the hitters aren't hitting.

The bullpen has been sporadic, but name a team that DOESN'T have bullpen issues. (Think about it.... What kind of idiot GM would put his best pitchers in the bullpen? The best pitchers are groomed to be starters or, if they don't have a huge arsenal of pitches but have one or two great pitches, they are made into closers. Those who are marginal are sent to the bullpen.) So, NEVER count on the bullpen to be the strength of a team. If a GM or manager says that they are counting on the bullpen to be a source of strength on the team, they might as well admit they are going to suck. If Marte stikes out the side in the 8th and then Koch closes out the 9th, Manuel would be hailed as a genius everywhere but on this board. If he can be accused of over-working the bullpen, have you considered that maybe he doesn't want to resort to using the really bad pitchers, of which this team has more than its fair share?

Manuel may not be the firebrand everyone wants. But he only can manage what he is given on the roster. Given the circumstances, it is amazing that they are only 5.5 games out of first. They say you can't fire 25 players, but you can dump the useless parts and replace them with useful players.

Mark my word. If Manuel gets fired, he will be snatched up by a smart GM with a balanced roster that can pitch and play D, and that team will win consistently.

JM doesn't need to tinker. He does it because he likes to use small statistcal sample sizes and play percentages. Besides he's not doing much tinkering with the "slow footed neanderthals" outside of Daubach and the slumping Konerko. He's keeping Thomas, Lee, Crede and Ordonez in the lineup. JM needs to keep a set line up where the players know their roles. It's hard for a player to be constantly messed with and not know if he is playing from one day to the next. Let the guys play and they'll find a groove.

Also, didn't JM and KW say the bullpen was going to be the strength of the team. So management just admitted the team was going to suck. Yet they still want out this winter and brought in 3 new relievers for about $7 mill. And even the JM has to work with the crap KW gives him, he still misuses these guys.

Bob