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View Full Version : Ashamed to be among Sox fans like these....


Jurr
06-22-2003, 10:17 PM
Since birth, I have been a Sox fan..it has been in my blood since sperm met the egg. Growing up in Hammond, IN, I knew no better joy than going to the Old Comiskey and watching a Sox game. That has carried over to the age of 23, and I still think that the Sox are the gem of Chicago, with the most knowledgable and die hard fans around.
But it really pisses me off when I see supposed Sox fans, the most baseball minded fans in MLB, have such a fair weather and cynical view on the team. I came to this message board to talk to other fans who weren't like the other schmucks around the league. After we won this series (as much as the loss today sucked), I felt such pride knowing that the Sox once again took it to the Cubs. That's such a great feeling. Yet, because we lost the last game of the series, the same old cockroaches come out of the woodwork yelling, "Fire Jerry because he took Colon out" and " We only put up one run today". It is just mind numbing to see such a lack of spirit from this fan base. Yes, Jerry Manuel maybe shouldn't have taken out Colon. However, if Marte strikes out the side and we win the game, Jerry's a genius. That sounds so, dare I say it, "Cubs fan".
This team is in position to do something special, given the right situation. Let me tell you why.
#1. Effort and Enthusiasm= It's back, folks. Earlier in the year, we called for Jerry's head because the team looked lost out there. The dugout was nothing but a bunch of sulking thieves, stealing their paychecks. Yes...take the manager's head for that. But, we've been seeing a new fire lit under this team in the past few weeks. This team runs out grounders, they fight in at bats, and guys like Jon Garland stand up near the entrance of the dugout to high five guys when a good play is made. That's a team that is jelling. A team that believes in each other. That goes a long way.
#2. A return to fundamental ball. This team is getting much more effort and focus on the little things. Yes, Jimenez didn't drop that bunt against Boston, and it hurt. Jerry noticed that and benched DJ the next day. Today, he got that damn bunt down. During this Sox series, we saw great defense. Repeated double plays in big situations, diving stops, and perfect relay throws were a nice change of pace, showing us that this team can be good when focused. The way the Sox were running the bases, the way Crede got Valentin over in the sixth today, all of these things are extremely encouraging. They were plagued by a terribly inconsistent strike zone today, and possibly with a competent umpire, we'd see some of those batters scoring runs.
#3. Hitting. We scored a ton of runs in this series, and the output has been increasing steadily since our horrendous start. If this keeps going, combined with fundamental concentration, we could see a revival in the summer months.
#4. Pitching. 4 of the 5 starters are giving us quality starts. The bullpen is a little shaky, but you never know what may happen if we're in position to take Minnesota by the deadline. We could possibly acquire some bullpen help. The bottom line is that our starters are giving us a chance to win games, and if our offense picks it up, we're going to have a great summer.
Bottom line----This Sox team SUCKED at the beginning of the year, in every aspect of the game, yet we found the boys only 7 games under .500 and within reach of the Twins at the worst of it. This team is beginning to believe they can win, all phases of their game is improving, and we as Sox fans should be getting excited. I know it's in our nature to be very hesitant to sell out on our team- it's a defense mechanism to disappointment.
But, folks, we need to drop the cynicism, realize that our boys are still going to lose games and the managers is going to make some bad decisions along the way (by the way, the best managers in the game make mistakes, too) and get excited about this team's chances. Drop the whole idea that this team is doomed to fail, that Reinsdorf doesn't care...all of that stuff. They put Colon, Wells, and others in a Sox uniform, they put Belle in a Sox uniform, they've made moves to try and get the team to win. Those weren't half-assed attempts to make noise--I think they care if we win or not. This team still may be able to do this. I didn't think it was going to happen earlier because I thought the team wasn't playing for the manager. But, these past two weeks, the boys are showing that they're here and ready to make some noise.
I think it's time this group of Sox fans embraced this team and got excited about the prospects of catching the twins, starting this week.
I am proud as hell to be a Sox fan. Whether they're 20-142 or 122-40, I am always wearing my Sox gear. We are by far the best fans in baseball, and it's time we backed instead of bashed this team. Jerry may not be the best guy, but he's OUR guy. Frank might be a walking phallus, but we haven't seen a guy take more at bats for this team in a LONG time. These are our boys, and let's get excited for the summer.

Meixner007
06-22-2003, 10:28 PM
I respectfully disagree. It's not the fact that JM pulled Bartolo, but rather the fact that it's one more in a string of blunders we have dealt with from him this season. He has PERSONALLY cost this team 3 games. That is unaccaptable coming from a manager. Yes this team has sucked up until recently. And even recently we've been winning, but not winning convincingly, or the right way. Just because JM is "our guy" doesn't mean we aren't allowed to criticize his managing. You mention that you'd be a fan if the sox were 20-142 or 142-20. So would I, but I also would understand that a change needs to be made so we can get to the latter record. He really has no clue what he's doing. Case and point the double switch at third. It's not like i've been calling for his job recently...it's been al season. This team has been a bunch of underachieving players. They need a spark, and JM is not the guy to light that fire.

captain54
06-22-2003, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by Jurr

I think it's time this group of Sox fans embraced this team and got excited about the prospects of catching the twins, starting this week.


If you could look me square in the eye and tell me that even if the Sox did make it to the postseason in the event the Twins and Royals totally tanked (cause thats what its going to take), that in that postseason they could compete with the best teams in baseball with the current state of this team, I will agree with every point that you have made in your Letter to the Cynical Sox Fans....

I could give a **** whether the Sox catch the Twins....I want to see this team built to win the World Series....I think the team is put together to be "competitive", and that's about it....that's why fans are "cynical", as you so put it.....they fork out their hard earned money and support the team in every way they can, and really don't see the ownership committed at all to build the team to be DOMINATING, not just "competitive"...

voodoochile
06-22-2003, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by captain54
If you could look me square in the eye and tell me that even if the Sox did make it to the postseason in the event the Twins and Royals totally tanked (cause thats what its going to take), that in that postseason they could compete with the best teams in baseball with the current state of this team, I will agree with every point that you have made in your Letter to the Cynical Sox Fans....

I could give a **** whether the Sox catch the Twins....I want to see this team built to win the World Series....I think the team is put together to be "competitive", and that's about it....that's why fans are "cynical", as you so put it.....they fork out their hard earned money and support the team in every way they can, and really don't see the ownership committed at all to build the team to be DOMINATING, not just "competitive"...

Can you imagine JM managing the Yankees or Braves or A's? There would be open revolt by the players.

It isn't about one game or one series. It's about the fact that the guy just isn't cut out to be a manager on this level.

MarqSox
06-22-2003, 10:54 PM
Great post. I feel the same way ... I love WSI because the fans are knowledgeable, but sometimes you guys get ridiculously fickle. Even if you disagreed with taking out Colon (which, considering Troy O'Leary KILLED him throughout his career, was not a horrible move), you have to admit that Manuel managed two great games before today.

And even if you've wanted Manuel fired for a long time, which I won't inherently argue with, you can't say today proves he's a horrible manager any more than yesterday proved he's a great manager. Let's not be fickle.

voodoochile
06-22-2003, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
Great post. I feel the same way ... I love WSI because the fans are knowledgeable, but sometimes you guys get ridiculously fickle. Even if you disagreed with taking out Colon (which, considering Troy O'Leary KILLED him throughout his career, was not a horrible move), you have to admit that Manuel managed two great games before today.

And even if you've wanted Manuel fired for a long time, which I won't inherently argue with, you can't say today proves he's a horrible manager any more than yesterday proved he's a great manager. Let's not be fickle.

Personally I didn't think he did that good of a job yesterday, but got really lucky that Clement had an off day.

Yeah, Manuel takes too much heat for the losses and gets too little credit when they win, but thus has it ever been in sports. Manuel's problems are just easier to spot than most managers are. Sort of like Wannys' were...

Meixner007
06-22-2003, 10:57 PM
yesterday proved Nossek is a great sign stealer. Nothing else. Manuel managed a game from 7-0 to 7-6

ilsox7
06-22-2003, 11:01 PM
The problem is that many fans simply accept losing. Sad as it may seem, Chicago fans accept losing. Look at our sports teams. Other than the Bulls (b/c of MJ) and the Bears (over 15 years ago), we don't have much to cheer. I'm just sick and tired of always being the loser. I want to own a couple World Champion White Sox T-Shirts in my lifetime. What you call cynical, I call completely fed up. It KILLS me to say this, but in New York, they don't accept this crap. Manuel is no longer manager if this is a New York team.

I don't know what we can do, but I know everyone here is totally fed up with losing. At least have us on the road to a championship. I mean, what is this team now? We add an ace pitcher (to presumable help us win now), who many say we won't resign, yet we are considerably under .500. But KW claims we are built for the long haul. I have a sinking feeling we're stuck in the damn middle. Trying to put a decent team on the field that can be "competitive," but not thinking about the future much at all. Let's either make a REALISTIC run at this thing for the next couple of years, or let's stock the system and build for 4 years from now. Unless we spend $150 million, we can't really have it both ways.

Sorry for my rant, and I wasn't singling anyone out at all. Just my thoughts on our current state. And if this team wins it all this year with Manuel at the helm, I will be the first person saying how very wrong I was. And I REALLY REALLY hope I have the opportunity to say how wrong I was...

MarqSox
06-22-2003, 11:01 PM
Originally posted by Meixner007
yesterday proved Nossek is a great sign stealer. Nothing else. Manuel managed a game from 7-0 to 7-6

In postgame interviews, Dusty confirmed that there was no sign; Goodwin just had the green light. It was Manuel's idea to pitch out, Nossek just gave it his vote of approval.

Meixner007
06-22-2003, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
In postgame interviews, Dusty confirmed that there was no sign; Goodwin just had the green light. It was Manuel's idea to pitch out, Nossek just gave it his vote of approval.


Do you honestly believe dusty?

MarqSox
06-22-2003, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by Meixner007
Do you honestly believe dusty?

It was corraberated by Manuel's version of events, and it's not like they had time to get their story straight. So yes, I do.

doublem23
06-22-2003, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
In postgame interviews, Dusty confirmed that there was no sign; Goodwin just had the green light. It was Manuel's idea to pitch out, Nossek just gave it his vote of approval.

If you looked closely today, Dusty's nose was a little longer than usual.

MRKARNO
06-22-2003, 11:07 PM
Jurr, you hit it right on the money. The loss was dissapointing, but you cant just Fire Jerry Manuel because of a dissapointing, disheartening loss. You have to look at the season, not one game. While one game may set the tone for many games, you cant guarentee that it will. It is getting pretty ridiculous that after every loss, every wants Jerry fired, but it's never him when something goes right.

Face it WSI, Jerry Manuel will not be fired this year, but if we miss the playoffs he's probably gone.

I'm in the corner that JM has been plagued by bad luck a lot of the season.

If you dont believe in this team that's fine, but this team battled back from 8.5 games out to 4.5 games out in a hurry. There is more than half a year of baseball to be played my friends. A lot of time for things to change for the good or for the bad. 90 something games left. I know it's hard to trust this team, but it's not like you have anywhere to go if they let you down. Put your trust in them because you have to

Meixner007
06-22-2003, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
It was corraberated by Manuel's version of events, and it's not like they had time to get their story straight. So yes, I do.

Dusty and JM are good friends from way back. There is no way in hell that JM is going to show up Dusty in public.

doublem23
06-22-2003, 11:10 PM
While I fully think the Sox can get back in this race and still sneak out with a division championship, as long as Jerry Manuel is in charge, I think they will always fall a little short... I made excuses in 2001 and 2002, NO MORE EXCUSES, Jerry. You have a lot of talent and its being flushed again.

I will ALWAYS love the Sox, but I am also not prepared to let incompetence off just because they happen to be in my home team's pinstripes.

MarkEdward
06-22-2003, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by Meixner007
yesterday proved Nossek is a great sign stealer. Nothing else. Manuel managed a game from 7-0 to 7-6

Yeah, it's not like the players managed to blow that game...

By the way, good post, Jurr. Keep the faith.

Meixner007
06-22-2003, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Jurr, you hit it right on the money. The loss was dissapointing, but you cant just Fire Jerry Manuel because of a dissapointing, disheartening loss. You have to look at the season, not one game. While one game may set the tone for many games, you cant guarentee that it will. It is getting pretty ridiculous that after every loss, every wants Jerry fired, but it's never him when something goes right.

Face it WSI, Jerry Manuel will not be fired this year, but if we miss the playoffs he's probably gone.

I'm in the corner that JM has been plagued by bad luck a lot of the season.

If you dont believe in this team that's fine, but this team battled back from 8.5 games out to 4.5 games out in a hurry. There is more than half a year of baseball to be played my friends. A lot of time for things to change for the good or for the bad. 90 something games left. I know it's hard to trust this team, but it's not like you have anywhere to go if they let you down. Put your trust in them because you have to

He may have been plagued by bad luck, but he's been hurt even more by poor fundamentals...something that falls directly upon his shoulders. Also, yes we did gain 4 games, but that's more based upon the twinkees loosing than our superior playing. There's plenty of time...for us to win this thing...and for JM to blow it for us.

Meixner007
06-22-2003, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Yeah, it's not like the players managed to blow that game...

By the way, good post, Jurr. Keep the faith.

I'm not loosing the faith. I'm actually quite optimistic. But I do have a question for you. What exactly is JM's job??? Surely you can't blame him for everything, but we've lost 7 or 8 games after the eighth. Unacceptable. Some may say a manager is the scapegoat....that may not be fair, but ok. JM must be held accountable if this team continues to play .500 ball.

doublem23
06-22-2003, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Yeah, it's not like the players managed to blow that game...


Yeah, because those players just trot out there everyday on their own with no direction whatsoever (actually, this probably is more to the truth with Manuel than we like to believe).

Harris... Leading off? Josh Paul? Yesterday, as nice as it was, was just Matt Clement being worse than JM's starting lineup. How many hits did the Tinkerer's awesome lineup get after Baker got Clement out of there?

ilsox7
06-22-2003, 11:18 PM
While the players obviously have to perform, you cannot fire 25 players. So when things aren't right, and there are so many questionable things being done by your manager, well you need to take a close look at that manager. I supported Manuel until about May this year. Then I sat down and consciously looked at how he managed games and made decisions, and after a month of doing so, realized how poor I think he manages this team. Just my opinion.

TRL
06-23-2003, 12:56 AM
Why do we have to go over this crap after every loss. I'm sure playing Josh Paul was the main reason that EVERYONE in the lineup didn't get a hit after Clement was gone. This may come as a surprise to some of you, but most catchers don't start 162 games a year. It probably didn't hurt Olivo any to sit out one of three consecutive day games. And playing Harris was obviously a horrible move, except when Rowand plays we can go on the message boards and complain about how crappy a baserunner he is and how he doesn't know how to tag up, or if Rios plays then we can talk about how he is a crappy centerfielder and is better suited for a corner outfield spot. And we have seen Magglio in center before as well, which would certainly bring up more tinker discussion.

Lip Man 1
06-23-2003, 03:02 AM
Despite the best efforts (both good and bad) of Kenny Williams this club has had exactly ONE playoff appearance under Jerry Manuel.

This club has had TWO winning seasons under Manager Gandhi and one of those was with a grand total of 83 wins.

Is it all his fault...no. Is it partially his fault that this team has no direction, can't execute fundamentals or run the bases...yes.

He's had plenty of time to address these issues. Why hasn't these areas improved in over five years? Is EVERY player who has appeared on the Sox Major League roster inept in executing the "little things,"? Is every player who has appeared on the Sox roster "baseball dumb" as the one scout said in his assesment of the club to Sports Illustrated a few weeks ago? I don't think so.

So again I ask the question WHY hasn't this team improved in these areas in over five years?

Like it or not the field manager is accountable for the way the team plays and more importantly how it LOOKS like they are playing. Does it look like they care? Are they running everything out? Do they seem to knowwhat they are doing?

This club may still make the playoffs (perhaps by default) but as usual they won't be around long and fortunately neither will Manager Gandhi (finally)

Next up is getting rid of this mediocre general manager.

Lip

hose
06-23-2003, 07:56 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
If you looked closely today, Dusty's nose was a little longer than usual.


Dusty's nose is why he got booted out of LA

dougs78
06-23-2003, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by Jurr
Since birth, I have been a Sox fan..it has been in my blood since sperm met the egg. Growing up in Hammond, IN, I knew no better joy than going to the Old Comiskey and watching a Sox game. That has carried over to the age of 23, and I still think that the Sox are the gem of Chicago, with the most knowledgable and die hard fans around.
But it really pisses me off when I see supposed Sox fans, the most baseball minded fans in MLB, have such a fair weather and cynical view on the team. I came to this message board to talk to other fans who weren't like the other schmucks around the league. After we won this series (as much as the loss today sucked), I felt such pride knowing that the Sox once again took it to the Cubs. That's such a great feeling. Yet, because we lost the last game of the series, the same old cockroaches come out of the woodwork yelling, "Fire Jerry because he took Colon out" and " We only put up one run today". It is just mind numbing to see such a lack of spirit from this fan base. Yes, Jerry Manuel maybe shouldn't have taken out Colon. However, if Marte strikes out the side and we win the game, Jerry's a genius. That sounds so, dare I say it, "Cubs fan".
This team is in position to do something special, given the right situation. Let me tell you why.
#1. Effort and Enthusiasm= It's back, folks. Earlier in the year, we called for Jerry's head because the team looked lost out there. The dugout was nothing but a bunch of sulking thieves, stealing their paychecks. Yes...take the manager's head for that. But, we've been seeing a new fire lit under this team in the past few weeks. This team runs out grounders, they fight in at bats, and guys like Jon Garland stand up near the entrance of the dugout to high five guys when a good play is made. That's a team that is jelling. A team that believes in each other. That goes a long way.
#2. A return to fundamental ball. This team is getting much more effort and focus on the little things. Yes, Jimenez didn't drop that bunt against Boston, and it hurt. Jerry noticed that and benched DJ the next day. Today, he got that damn bunt down. During this Sox series, we saw great defense. Repeated double plays in big situations, diving stops, and perfect relay throws were a nice change of pace, showing us that this team can be good when focused. The way the Sox were running the bases, the way Crede got Valentin over in the sixth today, all of these things are extremely encouraging. They were plagued by a terribly inconsistent strike zone today, and possibly with a competent umpire, we'd see some of those batters scoring runs.
#3. Hitting. We scored a ton of runs in this series, and the output has been increasing steadily since our horrendous start. If this keeps going, combined with fundamental concentration, we could see a revival in the summer months.
#4. Pitching. 4 of the 5 starters are giving us quality starts. The bullpen is a little shaky, but you never know what may happen if we're in position to take Minnesota by the deadline. We could possibly acquire some bullpen help. The bottom line is that our starters are giving us a chance to win games, and if our offense picks it up, we're going to have a great summer.
Bottom line----This Sox team SUCKED at the beginning of the year, in every aspect of the game, yet we found the boys only 7 games under .500 and within reach of the Twins at the worst of it. This team is beginning to believe they can win, all phases of their game is improving, and we as Sox fans should be getting excited. I know it's in our nature to be very hesitant to sell out on our team- it's a defense mechanism to disappointment.
But, folks, we need to drop the cynicism, realize that our boys are still going to lose games and the managers is going to make some bad decisions along the way (by the way, the best managers in the game make mistakes, too) and get excited about this team's chances. Drop the whole idea that this team is doomed to fail, that Reinsdorf doesn't care...all of that stuff. They put Colon, Wells, and others in a Sox uniform, they put Belle in a Sox uniform, they've made moves to try and get the team to win. Those weren't half-assed attempts to make noise--I think they care if we win or not. This team still may be able to do this. I didn't think it was going to happen earlier because I thought the team wasn't playing for the manager. But, these past two weeks, the boys are showing that they're here and ready to make some noise.
I think it's time this group of Sox fans embraced this team and got excited about the prospects of catching the twins, starting this week.
I am proud as hell to be a Sox fan. Whether they're 20-142 or 122-40, I am always wearing my Sox gear. We are by far the best fans in baseball, and it's time we backed instead of bashed this team. Jerry may not be the best guy, but he's OUR guy. Frank might be a walking phallus, but we haven't seen a guy take more at bats for this team in a LONG time. These are our boys, and let's get excited for the summer.


Very nice post Jurr. It is refreshing to read this. I share some of your optimism and I think we are seeing more and more signs of life from this team. However, it is going to take some more signs to make me think we are out of the woods. Winning 4 of the next 6 from the twins would go a long way toward doing that.

BTW, bonus points for Jurr for actually fitting the word "sperm" into the context of a post. Well done. :smile:

PaleHoseGeorge
06-23-2003, 09:43 AM
As a rookie manager, I gave Manuel a pass on '98. I was a HUGE supporter of Manuel's in '99 and '00. I didn't even get down on him for the team coasting to the division crown in July-September of '00. The team won 95 games in spite of coasting. I blamed the Sox hitters for losing the ALDS, not Manuel. IMO he was unquestionably the Manager of the Year.

So how am I embarrassing to you?

I couldn't figure out what Manuel was doing in April or May of 2001, and the team tanked in a big way. I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Later, in June, I gave him his props on this very message board because the team fought its way all the way back to within sniffing distance of first place. They were still in it until September, but never could get over the hump. I thought Manuel had a hand in that extended slump, but I stuck with him.

So how am I embarrassing to you?

The 2002 line up was brilliant through the month of April. In fact, the Sox had the #1 offense in the league, but that didn't stop Manuel from screwing around with it. He changed it in May and we tanked, The dive lasted for months. If you were paying attention (or have any memory), you'll also remember the clubhouse was in a complete uproar during this period, finally boiling over in July. Jerry Manuel lost control of his team sometime around the all-star break, 2002. When his own ballplayers quit on him, so did I.

So how am I embarrassing to you?

After supporting him for the first 4-1/2 years of his tenure, it's clear to me (and apparently a good portion of the Sox players) that Manuel doesn't have a clue. The 2003 season has been no different than 2002 except we skipped the brilliant April and went straight to the skid starting with opening day.

I think it is highly ironic that somebody would come here after the Sox win 2 of 3 from the Cubs and tell everyone else they are reactionaries for not supporting Manuel. Most of us arrived at where we are after a long, slow process. Jurr, you do realize Manuel has been manager since 1998, don't you? Have you been paying attention? I have my doubts.

I gave up on Manuel nearly a year ago--and it has NOTHING to do with whether Bartolo pitched the eighth inning yesterday at the Urinal.

Jerko
06-23-2003, 10:30 AM
Sorry if I'm an embarrassment to anybody, but let me at least get myself away from being called fickle. I don't care how many games the Sox win this week, or did last week, or will in July; I want Manuel gone and have wanted that since mid-2001. There. If they sweep the Twins, I will not come here and praise JM. I don't think he should be fired for taking Colon out yesterday, but every time he makes a move that backfires on him, which is often, he comes up with some convoluted logic and contradicts what he said the last time he screwed something up. Example: Last season vs. the Yankees, he pulls Buerhle with a 4-1 lead because "it was the 4th time through the order, the batters saw him 3 times and it's hard to get good hitters out 4 times in a row" then he leaves Colon in to face Bonds for the 4th time and says "well, he got him out 3 times in a row".
Every time he screws up his explanation is even worse than the bad move he made! You can tell he has no idea what he is talking about. He has made the same boneheaded moves for 3 years now and I for one am sick of it. Why did Colon even take the mound in the 8th if he was going to be pulled? Just to get a lefty to face O'Leary? Bring Marte in right at the beginning of the inning and O'Leary doesn't even bat, strikeout boy Jose Hernandez or Alex Gonzales would have hit instead. O'Leary didn't even get a hit? Usually, I would have supported leaving Marte in to face the 2 righties because I hate when a pitcher comes in to face just one hitter, but Marte has been getting hammered lately. Oh I forgot, Jerry didn't know that since he was asleep when it happened.

MarqSox
06-23-2003, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by Jerko
Sorry if I'm an embarrassment to anybody, but let me at least get myself away from being called fickle. I don't care how many games the Sox win this week, or did last week, or will in July; I want Manuel gone and have wanted that since mid-2001. There. If they sweep the Twins, I will not come here and praise JM.

Though I disagree with you, I can at least respect that. It's fans who get elated when we win and find any excuse under the sun to blame Manuel when we lose that I can't stand. Manuel makes mistakes -- a lot -- but not everything is his fault.

Procol Harum
06-23-2003, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge

I think it is highly ironic that somebody would come here after the Sox win 2 of 3 from the Cubs and tell everyone else they are reactionaries for not supporting Manuel. Most of us arrived at where we are after a long, slow process. Jurr, you do realize Manuel has been manager since 1998, don't you? Have you been paying attention? I have my doubts.

I gave up on Manuel nearly a year ago--and it has NOTHING to do with whether Bartolo pitched the eighth inning yesterday at the Urinal.

Preach it, my bruthah.

I also switched over to the fire Jerry squad about mid-season last year--there's just too much evidence accumulated over the last few seasons that Manuel doesn't have control over this team (forgetting for a moment some of his questionable lineup tinkering and in-game moves). After years of inept baserunning, poor execution of fundamentals and just plain boneheaded play doesn't a fair chunk of the blame have to point back to the manager for not making sure the team has the mental disicpline and intensity to cut down on silly mistakes?

Unfortunately, firing Manuel isn't going to be a cure-all for this team and I don't think there's many people on this board who are of the mindset that it would be. This fish rots from the head on down and until some changes take place in the GM slot, baseball ops, scouting and--ultimately--ownership--its unlikely that any of us are going to have to worry about what we're going to wear to the World Series.

alohafri
06-23-2003, 11:15 AM
I'd like to see Ron Kittle manage the Sox.


(from Mrs. Aloha)

ilsox7
06-23-2003, 12:54 PM
Kittie's a great, no nonsense guy. He was my hitting coach a few years ago, and I loved every minute with him. However, I don't think he wants to get into big time coaching, as he wants time with his family, imo.

Speaking of Kittle, anyone hear him last week when the Giants came into town? He said somehting along the lines of, "If Barry Bondy were laying on the street and needed one breath to live, I'd keep walking." He then went on to say that Bonds did something horribly rude to him...I found that story interesting.

MarkEdward
06-23-2003, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by Meixner007

Surely you can't blame him for everything, but we've lost 7 or 8 games after the eighth. Unacceptable.

Yeah, that couldn't be Billy Koch's fault, could it? Or Marte's? Or Gordon's? Or whomever actually blew the game?

With the team Kenny Williams put together, I'd say it's more KW's fault than Manuel's.

Originally posted by doublem23

Harris... Leading off? Josh Paul? Yesterday, as nice as it was, was just Matt Clement being worse than JM's starting lineup. How many hits did the Tinkerer's awesome lineup get after Baker got Clement out of there?

We have no other lead off option (DJ's slumping), and Buehrle doesn't like to pitch to Olivo.

You blame Manuel for the Sox not hitting after the fourth inning, but don't give him credit for the seven runs put up during the first three? What kind of logic is that?