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View Full Version : Mnuel, you frigin' IDIOT!


ssang
06-22-2003, 04:21 PM
:angry: :angry: He 100%, without a doubt, single-handedly cost the White Sox that victory. I knew it as soon as I saw Jerry pull Colon. It was a classic Manuel error! Colon was simply destroying the Cubs all day long. He was taken out before he had even gotten to any kind of a jam. He was set to start the 8th but Manuel yanked him because O'Leary had past success against Bartolo. In addition, Bartolo is an ABSOLUTE WORKHORSE! He could have gone 10 innings as far as I'm concerned. Manuel is PATHETIC and MISERABLE becuase he took out an excellent workhouse pitcher, who was having an awesome game, facing a poor offensive team!!!!! AGGHHH! Words cannot express how pissed I am that Manuel snatched away the sweep!!! Who takes out a dominating pithcer who had only given up a bloop single, a hit that was really an error on Crede, and another infield hit without even getting into a jam!?!?!? *** is wrong with Jerry? FUSTRATION FRUSTRATUION FRUSTRATIUON. Yeah, I'm glad we won 2/3 but this is the kind of thing that is unexcusable. The Sox had the Cubs swept, and everone knew it. Bartolo knew it, the fans knew it, hell....even the Cubs' players knew it!!! I hate to beat a dead horse but MANUEL SUCKS!! :angry: :angry: I can go on but I'll let everyone else a chance to get some good venting on him.

ChiSox14305635
06-22-2003, 04:26 PM
You can't put this one on Manuel. When Colon faced Bonds last week, Manuel kept the faith and left him in there, and we know what happened. Marte is lights out against lefties, and Manuel had to play that hand. Marte didn't bring his stuff today. This one wasn't Manuel's fault. Although, if you hear it on the Score (aka the "anti-Sox" station), this game was entirely Manuel's fault.

ilsox7
06-22-2003, 04:29 PM
I'm sorry but this is manuel's fault. No more apologizing for him. A THREE hit shut-out with a low pitch count with the guy leading the MLB in complete games does not warrant being pulled when Troy O'Leary is coming up. Hey, if O'leary goes yard, it's a tie game then maybe you pull him. It's not like Colon was in a jam at all.

I also agreed with leaving him in to face Bonds. That didn;t work out, but I stood by that decision. In this case, manuel was just an idiot. An idiot who has made too many mistakes to warrant having a job right now.

kevingrt
06-22-2003, 04:31 PM
Completely! I mean Marte sucked, but still JM has too goo!!!! HES HORRID!

ssang
06-22-2003, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox14305635
You can't put this one on Manuel. When Colon faced Bonds last week, Manuel kept the faith and left him in there, and we know what happened. Marte is lights out against lefties, and Manuel had to play that hand. Marte didn't bring his stuff today. This one wasn't Manuel's fault. Although, if you hear it on the Score (aka the "anti-Sox" station), this game was entirely Manuel's fault.


Are you crazy? He absolutley cost us that game. Colon pitched to BARRY BONDS and gave up a HR. This was the Cubs. They weren't close to even touching him for the entire game. Why take Colon out when he hadn't even gotten himself in trouble. Maybe if Colon had put a couple of runner on this move would be justified. But Colon hadn't even thrown a pitch in the entire GOddamn inning!?!?!? Manuel is a mutha F. And took a glorious weekend, and weep, and high and crushed it by taking one simple, unnecessary jog to the mound! I hate Manuel and you are wrong. MANUEL COST US THE GAME!!!!!

THE_HOOTER
06-22-2003, 04:36 PM
When he left Colon in against Bonds, it was the ninth, and Durham had just roped a single.

This was leading off the 8th, and a three hit, 97 pitch shutout going.

Not to mention Marte has struggled lately.


This decision was from a manager who clearly is an idiot-we now know who should get the first ax.


I will never understand taking out your 9 million dollar ace in the eighth working on a three hitter with a 97 pitch count.


just embarrassing.

ChiSox14305635
06-22-2003, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by ssang
Are you crazy? He absolutley cost us that game. Colon pitched to BARRY BONDS and gave up a HR. This was the Cubs. They weren't close to even touching him for the entire game. Why take Colon out when he hadn't even gotten himself in trouble. Maybe if Colon had put a couple of runner on this move would be justified. But Colon hadn't even thrown a pitch in the entire GOddamn inning!?!?!? Manuel is a mutha F. And took a glorious weekend, and weep, and high and crushed it by taking one simple, unnecessary jog to the mound! I hate Manuel and you are wrong. MANUEL COST US THE GAME!!!!!



MARTE IS THE BEST LEFTY OUT OF THE PEN! 2 OF THOSE 3 GUYS HE FACED WERE LEFTIES! AND REGARDLESS OF THE FACT THAT IT WAS THE CUBS, PATTERSON CAN GO DEEP ANY TIME! YOU GIVE ME THAT LEFTY ON LEFTY MATCHUP ANYTIME! YOU STICK WITH COLON WHEN HE WAS CLEARLY TIRING, (7TH INNING, EVEN WITH DEFENSIVE MISCUES), THE BIG HITTERS ARE COMING UP. YOU GOTTA GO WITH YOUR BEST OUT OF THE 'PEN! I'M SORRY, MANUEL HAS BEEN COST US MANY A GAME, BUT NOT THIS ONE! AND YES, I'M PISSED TOO, BECAUSE I WANTED A GOD**** SWEEP!

gosox41
06-22-2003, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox14305635
You can't put this one on Manuel. When Colon faced Bonds last week, Manuel kept the faith and left him in there, and we know what happened. Marte is lights out against lefties, and Manuel had to play that hand. Marte didn't bring his stuff today. This one wasn't Manuel's fault. Although, if you hear it on the Score (aka the "anti-Sox" station), this game was entirely Manuel's fault.

Two things that bother me about this move:
1. JM is basing a decision on something that happened 3 starts ago to Colon. He has a history of getting stronger late in starts, just because he failed once doesn't mean JM should over analyze every decision.

2. Marte has looked bad over his last 3-4 outings. I don't know if he's overused or going through a dead arm phase, but Marte over the last week hasn't been the Marte of earlier.

Bob

PaleHoseGeorge
06-22-2003, 05:30 PM
I would be willing to forgive Manuel for this boneheaded move if he had bothered to establish specific roles for each of his bullpen pitchers. Grabbing Marte to start the eighth smacks of just the latest example of Jerry playing another hunch "to see what happens."

We're over one-third into the season and absolutely NOBODY has any clue what Manuel's next move with the pitching staff will be. If Marte was established as a the regular and successful eighth inning set up man, SURE-- put him into the game to fulfill the role you've established for him.

But no, that's not Manuel. Nobody has a role on this team and practically every move he makes is random. I wouldn't have been the least bit surprised if Rick White had been given the ball to start the eighth.

Given all the past uncertainty Manuel is guilty of propogating, Colon should have at least been given a chance to throw strikes to the first batter. If he fell behind in the count, get the bullpen up, pronto! It's not like Barry Bonds was in the batter's box-- not that Manuel was smart enough to use his bullpen in that situation either.

Ah **** it. We're pissing up a rope to think this ballclub can go ANYWHERE with such a nimrod calling the shots.

:angry: :angry: :angry:

MarkV
06-22-2003, 06:08 PM
Hey everyone. Manuel is THE WORST manager in baseball. He can't wait to pull a pitcher when he's pitching well, and he sticks with guys that can't get the job done. Manuel is a horrible strategist and has lost the respect of his players the last three years. Look, the team goes out there and works its ass off to get into a situation where they can win, and Manuel always finds ways to blow games. I've never been a Manuel fan and I've wanted him gone since he blew the playoffs in 2000. The last two months of the season, he let the team get rusty and lackadaisical. The team went limping and unprepared into the playoffs, and Pinella made Manuel look like he never managed a game in his life. In 2001, he constantly marched out guys like Harold Baines and Julio Ramirez went they clearly sucked. He hasn't bothered to work on fundamentals, sending the Sox into a downward spiral towards oblivion. Why do you think we can't hit worth a darn? The guys go up there swinging for the fences all the time instead of hitting the way the situation dictates. It isn't Von Joshua, Gary Ward, or Greg Walker's fault. It's Manuel because he doesn't work on fundamentals. It's just hurt so much these last three years to see this championship caliber team underachieve so badly because of Manuel and Williams (I won't even get started on him). Manuel lost all respect from his players after he pulled Buehrle from that Yankee game last year and he's lost more and more respect as time has gone on. Unfortunately JR won't fire Manuel this year and Manuel will probably still be here next year. Don't expect the Sox to win as long as this managerial situation is in place. Maunel will blow many more games and the bosses upstairs won't do a thing about it. :whiner:

jeremyb1
06-22-2003, 06:26 PM
at some point i just can't take these threads seriously anymore because every single time we lose a game there are three or four threads about how its completely manuel's fault and we would've won if not for his decision. its completely the backup quarter back syndrome except instead of the backup always being better in this case, its always whatever move manuel didn't make would've won the game. its just so illogical and absurd that at some point you'd be a fool to continue trying to use reason in these situations.

so on this thread i'm just going to say one last time 1) colon had thrown more pitches than he did when he was roughed up against the giants 2) he'd struggled with his control and allowed more baserunners against the giants 3) he clearly grew tired and lost it against the giants. his mechanics slipped and he had no control. in addition to the bonds home run he gave up several other hits and only recorded one out. 4) marte has been one of the best relievers in all of baseball the last season and a half. he gave up runs in 2 of his outings in the last two weeks but only for a total of 3 earned runs and one of those came on one bad pitch to rich aurilia meaning he was only hit hard in one starter recently. there was no reason to suspect he wouldn't easily retire the side.

Meixner007
06-22-2003, 06:38 PM
1) It doesn't matter if he's thrown more pitches. He has easily thrown over 100 pitches in complete games before, and he can trown 96 at the 100 pitch mark.

2) It didn't matter what kind of control he had today with that strike zone.

3) Marte has NOT had it in his few recent outings. He's look tired, and has been hit around.

If we win this game I'm happy, but i guarentee you I still would be complaining if he took colon out...no question what soever.

MarkV
06-22-2003, 07:10 PM
jeremyb1, Manuel is not the sole reason we've been so bad. You have to realize, though, that a lot of the moves he makes make no sense. Some examples: Game 1 2000 ALDS: Parque struggled the first three innings, giving up three runs before he started to dominate, retiring the next 13 batters he faced. The M's had no idea what they were doing. Parque pulls him after the 6th after only 96 pitches; he could've at least started the 7th. Instead Howry blew the lead, we lose in 10, the momentum carrying the M's to a sweep. 5/29/02, Manuel pulls Buehrle after 7 innings (93 pitches, 3 hits, 0 BB, 1 bad pitch to Giambi for a solo HR) leading 3-1. He puts in Foulke, who had been struggling and not highly effective working two innings. Foulke struggles in the 8th, blows it in the 9th (Manuel doesn't bring in Marte to face Giambi with two on tied 3-3, Giambi HR's off Foulke). A loss Sox fans will never forget. Exactly one year to the date, Garland shutting out the Blue Jays 8-0 on 96 pitches and Manuel doesn't send him out for the complete game, instead putting in an overused Marte, who had pitched three of the previous four days. Manuel's moves make no sense! He did the right thing leaving Colon in to face Bonds. You have your best vs. their best. Colon got beat by the best player in the game. The Cubs' entire team can't hold Bonds' jock strap! If Colon allows a couple of baserunners, then you pull him. You don't pull a guy when he's dominating in a close game. Someone should tell Jerry that.

voodoochile
06-22-2003, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
at some point i just can't take these threads seriously anymore because every single time we lose a game there are three or four threads about how its completely manuel's fault and we would've won if not for his decision. its completely the backup quarter back syndrome except instead of the backup always being better in this case, its always whatever move manuel didn't make would've won the game. its just so illogical and absurd that at some point you'd be a fool to continue trying to use reason in these situations.

so on this thread i'm just going to say one last time 1) colon had thrown more pitches than he did when he was roughed up against the giants 2) he'd struggled with his control and allowed more baserunners against the giants 3) he clearly grew tired and lost it against the giants. his mechanics slipped and he had no control. in addition to the bonds home run he gave up several other hits and only recorded one out. 4) marte has been one of the best relievers in all of baseball the last season and a half. he gave up runs in 2 of his outings in the last two weeks but only for a total of 3 earned runs and one of those came on one bad pitch to rich aurilia meaning he was only hit hard in one starter recently. there was no reason to suspect he wouldn't easily retire the side.

Just a point about marte. In one of those no ER appearances this week he got hit hard, but the ball was caught at the track twice. He isn't fooling people at present...

MarqSox
06-22-2003, 07:21 PM
Not much to add to the debate except that I personally agreed with the move and don't fault Manuel here. You make decisions and sometimes they don't work. I bet half the managers in MLB would have made the same move in that situation.

It was a tough loss, but let's not go off the deep end. Manuel definitely outmanaged Baker this weekend, and taking two out of three in Wrigley is certainly acceptable.

duke of dorwood
06-22-2003, 07:24 PM
The ineffectiveness of Marte, Gordon, and Koch, lately is exactly why Colon starts the 8 th inning. PHG's comments on roles not being known at the end of June is a replay of the confusion we have suffered thru with this dolt since 2000.

And isnt it time to get D'Angelo for 4 out of the 2 spot?

IronFisk
06-22-2003, 08:52 PM
Anybody with 1/8 a brain could figure out this was Jerry "The Bum" Manuel's fault. I feel for many Sox fan's who are simply besides themselves as we are in the middle of watching ANOTHER medicore season go past us. Ever since that horrid last week of the 2000 - it's been the same drumbeat. Manuel has no idea what the hell rhythm is at all. We we simply lucky to win yesterday with Paul (!?!?!) and Dauback (?!?!?) in the lineup for Friday's hero's Olivio and Thomas. This is stupid.

Anyhow, this tops 'em all - the epiotme of the crap we've dealt with under Jerry. Sometimes, the smartest move is one that you DON'T make - someone should tatoo this phase to a donkey's hoof and have him kick Manuel in the forehead - maybe it will stick.

I really hope I am wrong...but with Manuel in charge...this team is DOOMED! I am going to write the Sox management - and I suggest ALL of you who care do the same. We know who the cancer is, and it's time to let the management know that unless they lance it soon, they will have little if any fan base left.

Cut me at the knees and call me tripod!!! :o:

Chisox_cali
06-22-2003, 09:29 PM
Don't know if this has already been posted but, it seems like it should be mentioned in this thread...

From whitesox.com

O'Leary carried a .324 career average and four RBIs against Colon. But it was Colon's admission of fatigue prior to the bottom of the eighth that led Manuel to make the move.

"Coop (White Sox pitching coach Don Cooper) spoke with him a number of times between innings, and he was a little tired ," said Manuel of Colon. "When a guy says 'have someone ready' as opposed to 'I'm going to finish this thing,' you have to make a decision."

The decision was clearly the right move, said Cooper. But it backfired.

captain54
06-22-2003, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
Not much to add to the debate except that I personally agreed with the move and don't fault Manuel here. You make decisions and sometimes they don't work.


That might be true in a general sense, but in the case of the White Sox and Jerry Manuel, it seems like the MAJORITY of the decisions don't work out for whatever reason...

It seems like it must have happened 100 times in the last three years alone....some decision blows up in Manuels face at a critical time....you can't always blow it off by saying, "the pitcher just didnt have it today when he blew that lead"....its the manager's job to know his personnel and what each guy is capable of....

if we go by the numbers, lefty/righty, percentages, etc, when making pitching changes, and base the decision solely on that, like Manuel does, than anyone with a statistical baseball mind could manage....I don't really believe Manuel has very good gut baseball instinct, and is incapable of managing beyond the numbers....he basically takes the safe way out and then looks to blame the pitcher for "not having it" today......

Meixner007
06-22-2003, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by Chisox_cali
Don't know if this has already been posted but, it seems like it should be mentioned in this thread...

From whitesox.com


cough cough....coverup coverup...cough cough

LuvSox
06-22-2003, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
I bet half the managers in MLB would have made the same move in that situation.

Yeah, the losing half. :D:

MarqSox
06-22-2003, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by Meixner007
cough cough....coverup coverup...cough cough

Give me a break, you can knock Manuel all day, but one thing you can't criticize is his integrity. The man tells it straight and isn't afraid of criticism. If Manuel said Colon said he was tired, he was tired.

Meixner007
06-22-2003, 09:54 PM
did manuel ever say that, or was it others on the team who said that colon talked to manuel?

ssang
06-23-2003, 07:07 AM
Look, anyone supporting Manuel and Coop is stupid. Cooper is covering there asses (although not very well). He said "WITHOUT QUESTION" Bartolo should've been pulled. HA HA HA!!!!!! Without question, Coop??? I don't think so. Colon was cruising you friggin' moron and don't tell me he was tired. I heard on the radio this mornign that Colon's very own interpreter said Bartolo mentioned to have someone ready JUST IN CASE THE FIRST GUY GETS ON OR SOMETHING. How does dumb-ass Manuel interperet that? By taking out Bartolo without even being in trouble. Was he really that afraid of frigin' Troy O'Leary!?!?!? If so, than that alone should prove that Manuel is a retarded puss!

I think the only reason Bartolo even mentioned that is NOT becuase he was tired, but becuase he was afraid Jerry wouldn't have someone ready at any point during the game. When Bartolo lost against Bonds and the Giants Manuel had no one prepared in the bullpen. He should've had someone ready in case Bartolo flamed out. Keeping him in the 9th was the right move, but of course Jerry was ill-prepared to replace Bartolo ifcouldn't finish 'em off. Ina nutshell, the reason Bartolo even made any comment was because he knew Jerry is an idiot and he wouldn't have someone warm up at all unless Bartolo said :just in case" Bartolo simply wanted safety net. To moron Manuel that meant, take him out before he even pitches one ball in the inning!?!?!? What a goddamn joke. MANUEL single-handedly cost the Sox this game. PATHETIC!!

Hangar18
06-23-2003, 08:13 AM
My take on all this is .......A GOOD MGR SHOULD BE ABLE TO PLAY HIS HUNCH. Manuel has shown he cant do that. YES, hes had a bad bullpen in Koch, Gordon and White. Now MARTE has stunk lately, so Personally, using the Hot Hand Theory, I NEVER WOULDVE BROUGHT HIM IN LIKE THAT. THATS WHY HE SUCKS AS A MGR.

Jerko
06-23-2003, 10:22 AM
Maybe Colon was being a smart ass because last time he started getting hit hard NOBODY WAS WARMING UP UNTIL HE GAVE UP 4 OR 5 HITS!!!!!!!! Maybe that's what he meant!