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View Full Version : Disagree if you will, but this one wasn't Jerry's fault:


ChiSox14305635
06-22-2003, 05:21 PM
Marte didn't have his stuff today, nor has he had it as of late. I'm not about to pin this one on Jerry. He played the percentages and he lost. This game couldv'e gone either way. Just glad we took 2 of 3.

Meixner007
06-22-2003, 05:24 PM
What are the percentages against a pitcher throwing a 3 hitter w/less than 4 hits and a shaky bullpen??????????? **** Manuel. He's is lost.

Konerkoholic
06-22-2003, 05:27 PM
Playing the percentages? Tell me, how many hits did Patterson and Harris muster off Colon today?
Oh, my mistake. Harris got an infield single. Yeah, that's reason to pull Bartolo.

xil357
06-22-2003, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox14305635
Marte didn't have his stuff today, nor has he had it as of late. I'm not about to pin this one on Jerry. He played the percentages and he lost. This game couldv'e gone either way. Just glad we took 2 of 3.

I have to agree.

Just a little more offensive production would have made it a moot point, as well. The Sox aren't going to win games by scoring one run. No team is going to win many 1-0 games, even if they could put together a starting rotation of Koufax, Seaver, Ryan, Clemens and Cy Young.

Two out of three from the Twins would be a great boost going into next weekend's series with the Corky and the Cubs.

kevingrt
06-22-2003, 05:28 PM
Can we please get him out of here. Put KW on the plane to Minny and if we dont win that series he is gone... everyone has waited long enough!

Konerkoholic
06-22-2003, 05:30 PM
With the strike zone and the way both pitchers were attacking the zone, no team was going to score much this game. I can't believe there are actually people defending Manuel even after this.

THE_HOOTER
06-22-2003, 05:31 PM
I dont understand what you mean by playing the percentages.

Manuel took a chance taking out Colon.

Playing the percentages would have been to let Colon finish at least the 8th.

Tragg
06-22-2003, 05:33 PM
The bottom line is that Manuel continually makes the wrong moves, even though half of them might have been right on paper. Great managers have a feel, an instinct, that Manuel sorely lacks.
Against the Giants he lets Colon pitch - we lose; today he doesn't - we lose; Marte's been pitching lousy, but manuel doesn't move him down - we lose; white pitched horribly until a few weeks ago, but he stayed as Manuel's #3 until the outings became just so grotesque.
With 2 outs in the 9th, you might consider a bit more power from the bench, other than willy harris.
It's not that his moves are obviously wrong - it's that so few turn out to be right.

jeremyb1
06-22-2003, 05:33 PM
so i understand. he lost the game against san francisco by leaving in colon when he'd thrown 90 pitches through 8 innings and he lost todays game by pulling colon when he'd thrown 97 pitches through 7 innings.

Viva Magglio
06-22-2003, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox14305635
Marte didn't have his stuff today, nor has he had it as of late. I'm not about to pin this one on Jerry. He played the percentages and he lost. This game couldv'e gone either way. Just glad we took 2 of 3.

I agree. As much as I have been calling for Manuel's head, I will not blame him for this today. I realize Colon was pitching a great game, but it was only a 1-0 game. With O'Leary having a reputation of making Colon a BP pitcher, I agreed fully with JM bringing Marte in. It pissed me off that we lost, believe you me, but I point the finger at our offense. It wasn't Jerry Manuel who hit into that double play, right Mágglio?

Tragg
06-22-2003, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
so i understand. he lost the game against san francisco by leaving in colon when he'd thrown 90 pitches through 8 innings and he lost todays game by pulling colon when he'd thrown 97 pitches through 7 innings.

He had a shut out going today, he didn't against the Giants; he was pitching to Barry Bonds against the Giants, Troy O'Leary today. I don't think it was the worst move I've ever seen, but there comes a point for accountability.

ChiSox14305635
06-22-2003, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
He had a shut out going today, he didn't against the Giants; he was pitching to Barry Bonds against the Giants, Troy O'Leary today. I don't think it was the worst move I've ever seen, but there comes a point for accountability.


But as they stated on the TV broadcast, O'Leary wore out Colon's pitching. Why risk tying the game, if you have a lefty that can get him out.

Jerko
06-22-2003, 05:43 PM
Ok, if you don't want to blame JM for pulling Colon, who gave Olivo the take sign in the 2nd inning with 2 outs, 2 men on, a 3-0 count and and Colon up next? He stood looking at TWO pitches waiting for that walk. This coming from a manager who even when the Sox lose 10-4 says "we need more offense." Even Stone said "I'd give Olivo the green light right now with Colon up next". Sure enough, Olivo walks, Colon strikes out, inning over. No guarantee Olivo gets a hit, granted, but I like his chances a hell of a lot more than Colon. :angry:

ssang
06-22-2003, 05:45 PM
It's quite simple really. Manuel is a BAD manager because he lacks the instincts that good manager's have. Jerry "moron" Manuel should have known to keep Bartolo in until he at least had a reason to take him out. It's ridiculous. Give Bartolo a damn chance! I mean he gave a HR to Bonds but that was Baryy BONDS, people! Bartolo was cruising agianst the miserable Cub offense. Manuel's move was awful and for anyone who agrees with Jerry's decision is just as dumb. There is no excuse for pulling Bartolo Colon without even sending him out in the 8th. A good manager knows to let their stud go out there and finish off the 8th and 9th. Hell, even an average manager knows not to screw around witht he bullpen in this situation. You gotta let Colon carry you. It was just that type of a game. It's amazing to me that Manuel cannot see this. How can this man be paid to make such asenine decisons such as to what took place today???

Kilroy
06-22-2003, 05:48 PM
You all know that its only the right move if it works. If he leaves him in and they win, right move. If he leaves him in and they lose, wrong move.

There was post after post about why didn't he bring in Marte to pitch to Durham, Bonds, etc.

Now its why didn't JM leave him in.

The conversation is completely dependant on the results. If you'd asked anyone on Friday if they'd be happy w/ 2 of 3, it would have been a unanimous "yes".

Tragg
06-22-2003, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by Jerko
Ok, if you don't want to blame JM for pulling Colon, who gave Olivo the take sign in the 2nd inning with 2 outs, 2 men on, a 3-0 count and and Colon up next? :

Are you sure he had the take sign? If so, that's the worst managing from Manuel I've seen yet.

Meixner007
06-22-2003, 05:53 PM
If i remember correctly that 3-0 pitch was a tough one over the outside corner. Anyways when asked about the 2 of 3, yes i'm happy...but i'm pissed about what could have been if we had somewhat of a fompetent manager.

ChiSox14305635
06-22-2003, 05:53 PM
Maybe if Colon doesn't strike out in the 2nd with the bags full, or Lee isn't called out on strikes with Frank & Mags in scoring position, or if Mags doesn't ground into the DP with RISP, this wouldn't be such a big issue. The offense was AWOL. We all should've known one run wasn't going to do it.

voodoochile
06-22-2003, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by Meixner007
If i remember correctly that 3-0 pitch was a tough one over the outside corner. Anyways when asked about the 2 of 3, yes i'm happy...but i'm pissed about what could have been if we had somewhat of a fompetent manager.

No, it was one of the fattest pitches Zambrano threw all day. I was thinking the same thing. Dial it up and turn it loose...

gosox41
06-22-2003, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
I agree. As much as I have been calling for Manuel's head, I will not blame him for this today. I realize Colon was pitching a great game, but it was only a 1-0 game. With O'Leary having a reputation of making Colon a BP pitcher, I agreed fully with JM bringing Marte in. It pissed me off that we lost, believe you me, but I point the finger at our offense. It wasn't Jerry Manuel who hit into that double play, right Mágglio?

The Sox got Colon to be the stud of the staff. I have no problem letting him stay in against San Francisco and would have liked to see him finish today. He's most likely gone after this year anyway, so why use him sparingly. He could throw 125 pitches in a start every so often.

Bob

voodoochile
06-22-2003, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox14305635
Maybe if Colon doesn't strike out in the 2nd with the bags full, or Lee isn't called out on strikes with Frank & Mags in scoring position, or if Mags doesn't ground into the DP with RISP, this wouldn't be such a big issue. The offense was AWOL. We all should've known one run wasn't going to do it.

It could have though. Bartolo was on fire all day. His pitches had bite and the plate was huge, which really favors a guy like him.

gosox41
06-22-2003, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox14305635
Maybe if Colon doesn't strike out in the 2nd with the bags full, or Lee isn't called out on strikes with Frank & Mags in scoring position, or if Mags doesn't ground into the DP with RISP, this wouldn't be such a big issue. The offense was AWOL. We all should've known one run wasn't going to do it.

SOS with this team. When are they ever going to figure it out. This has got to be the worst hitting Sox team since the late '80's when it comes to hitting with RISP.

Any ideas why these guys aren't getting it done so much?

Bob

ChiSox14305635
06-22-2003, 06:06 PM
Listening to the postgame show on ESPN radio 1000, and Ed Farmer reported that Colon's hand was hurting in his last start, and it was starting to bother him again. As much as I want a sweep, don't mortgage the farm just to get a sweep against the Cubbies. Hell, we can get that next week! Again, right call made by Manuel.

Meixner007
06-22-2003, 06:09 PM
wow do i smell a conspiracy. His hand is probably fine...they're just trying to cover up for manuel and the hole in his head.

Vsahajpal
06-22-2003, 06:18 PM
Here's what I fail to understand. O'leary is hitting .324 lifetime against Colon, with a rather weak sub .753 OPS. So basically, he's singling Colon to death.

Meanwhile, Grudzielanek hits .321/.800 versus lefties, Ramon Martinez hits .350/.966, Patterson is much improved versus lefties as well, and Sosa owns them.

So bringing in Marte wasn't necessarily a bad move, he got O'leary out after all, but why wasn't White or Gordon up sooner?

PaleHoseGeorge
06-22-2003, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by Meixner007
wow do i smell a conspiracy. His hand is probably fine...they're just trying to cover up for manuel and the hole in his head.

I agree. This sounds waaaaaay too convenient. In fact, it sounds EXACTLY like Dusty Baker claiming there was no sign to steal in yesterday's game.

Yeah, sure...

hose
06-22-2003, 06:21 PM
Colon aside , Manuel choices and decisions usually are wrong or don't work.

That is the definition of a poor manager.

jeremyb1
06-22-2003, 07:32 PM
again, i think its just important to say here if we do not have a bullpen that can hold a one run lead or an offense that can score more than one run we have much bigger problems than our manager.

ChiSox14305635
06-22-2003, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
again, i think its just important to say here if we do not have a bullpen that can hold a one run lead or an offense that can score more than one run we have much bigger problems than our manager.



Agreed. The bullpen has been a major letdown this year.

Viva Magglio
06-22-2003, 07:49 PM
I have already said that the loss today was not JM's fault. I would have pulled Colon simply because it was only a 1-0 game. If we were up by three, four, or more, I would have left Colon in there. Besides, suppose Manuel left Colon in there and the Cubs scored the runs they did anyway? JM would still be getting ripped. For Manuel, it was a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.

Don't get me wrong, I still believe that Jerry Manuel should be fired. We have all discussed ad nausum why he should be fired. Now I realize that we have been doing a little better as of late, but the trigger on JM must be fired if we fail to get back into the race. However, I am not willing to pin this particular loss on him. As I stated before, the lack of offense is what cost us the game. A 1-0 deficit is the easiest to overcome. We failed to get insurance, and we were caught with our pants down as a result when the house burned down.

voodoochile
06-22-2003, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
again, i think its just important to say here if we do not have a bullpen that can hold a one run lead or an offense that can score more than one run we have much bigger problems than our manager.

Sure, but every team needs to (and most are capable of) winning the occasional 1-0 game. Especially when the game is against a rival and it is for the opportunity to sweep.

Something that hasn't been talked about here and that I was wondering about was Harris leading off. Is this now a done deal? Why? I realize he looks better since coming back to the team, but he isn't exactly setting the world on fire. I would have loved to see Valentin high in the batting order today, because I just knew he would be sky high and ready to play. That's the kind of player he is - up for big games. If Manuel is going to tinker, at least have a plan. He just seems to go with matchups that only he can see. There comes a time a team needs to take advantage of the emotional leaders they have and put them in a position to make a difference. No, it isn't the sole reason Manuel should be fired, but he just has NO feel for this team. He should know it much better by now and his decisions are just plain sad at time. When he leaves, I hope they burn the book of "Management by Jerry"...

Gumshoe
06-22-2003, 08:54 PM
JM might take some criticism for this, but ONLY for not letting Colon go until he gave up a base runner. I have to say, he's done a lot worse than put Marte in a situation like that. Marte is our best, yes, he's been down a bit lately, but if he gets that call on the first batter there, Cubs get NO runs.

However, Manuel has blown so many games due to messing up the bullpen "flow" he deserves to get criticized when stuff doesn't work out. The difference between this and the SF game was that Colon had given up 2 runs against SF, and this game he hadn't given up ANY.

That is what the differece is for those who insist that it was the same situation that detractors are taking the critical side of. Colon was going on a 3 hitter, and it was the 8th. The other game SF had gotten 2 runs already and had been hitting Colon MUCH better. In any case, I won't really criticize Manuel today EXCEPT for that he didn't SEE IF COLON could get another guy out. Leave him in until a guy gets ON BASE. Then pull him. That is all I'm saying.

Well, what really matters is that the season hinges on the Twins series. If they don't at least win 2 of 4, just be content in that we'll finish 2nd in the division. Loaiza is going, so that's a PLUS. I'm excited to see if the offense can get psyched for this series, which matters FAR MORE THAN the stupid Cubby series (although I'm happy we won!)

Gumshoe

voodoochile
06-22-2003, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
JM might take some criticism for this, but ONLY for not letting Colon go until he gave up a base runner. I have to say, he's done a lot worse than put Marte in a situation like that. Marte is our best, yes, he's been down a bit lately, but if he gets that call on the first batter there, Cubs get NO runs.

How do you figure. This is the same thing Chimp and Stoney were saying and it was dead wrong. If the ball is called a strike then it is 1-2 instead of 2-1. The next pitch was fouled off. So it was 2-2 instead of 1-2. The next pitch was blopped for the single. The missed call made exactly ZERO difference in the game.

Don't listen to those morons. They have no clue *** they are talking about. Most flubbie fans don't even listen to them, prefering Santo.

ssang
06-23-2003, 08:17 AM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
I have already said that the loss today was not JM's fault. I would have pulled Colon simply because it was only a 1-0 game. If we were up by three, four, or more, I would have left Colon in there. Besides, suppose Manuel left Colon in there and the Cubs scored the runs they did anyway?

WRONG!!! You keep Colon in during a 1-0 game beacuse there is no margin for error and he is the best pithcer you got. Besides, he was simply awesome yesterday. Ina 4-0 or 5-0 game you have room for error and I could see us taking him out. So basically you've stated the opposite of what should really be done by a manager!

Kilroy
06-23-2003, 08:39 AM
Originally posted by ssang
WRONG!!! You keep Colon in during a 1-0 game beacuse there is no margin for error and he is the best pithcer you got. Besides, he was simply awesome yesterday. Ina 4-0 or 5-0 game you have room for error and I could see us taking him out. So basically you've stated the opposite of what should really be done by a manager!

You don't keep him in if Colon tells the pitching coach to get someone ready. You also don't keep him in when he's tiring and about to face a guy that has hit something like .350 against him.

Hang the blame where it belongs --> on Marte, and on the rest of the Sox for not cashing in opportunities earlier in the game to score more than one damn run.

I swear, you'd never know the Sox took 2 out of 3 this weekend.

THE_HOOTER
06-23-2003, 11:15 AM
Kilroy,

You always bring up valid points, but I have to argue with you on this one.

Yes, blame goes to Marte and the offense, but 1-0 games are going to happen a few times a year.

If you are paying Colon 9mil, I just dont understand why you take him out-three hits, two that never even left the infield.

Anyone who watched the game knows that Colon had them frustrated, and buried. Going to the bullpen gave the Cubs hope.

Yes, our Marte and the Magglio should have made more plays, but our manager just took away all of our momentum because he had a hunch.

Also, Colon told him to get someone up in the pen if got into trouble, not that he was tired.

JUGGERNAUT
06-23-2003, 11:29 AM
The play at the plate was the game breaker

Not the removal of Colon. If you can't trust your bullpen in the 8th & 9th innings you're not going to the post-season.
Period.

This is the 4th time now I have seen a BAD play at the plate executed by the SOX.

Make all the excuses you want, but it's JM 's JOB to PREPARE these games for GAME DAY.

After the first blunder of a play at the plate a good MANAGER has the team practicing those situations AFTER the game. I don't give a **** what the players think. They are suppose to be professionals.

Consistently now the SOX cutoff men & OF players are not getting the throw down near the 3rd base line. That's where it needs to be. Our catchers always seem to be 5-7 ft in front of the plate. There is no option to block the plate or tag a runner on a close play when THEY ARE THAT FAR OUT OF POSITION.

If JM is worried about the ball getting away, that's why the pitcher is suppose to back up the THROW.

I'M SO SICK AND TIRED OF THE LITTLE LEAGUE PLAY UNDER JM's TUTALAGE.

It's way PAST TIME FOR HIM TO GO.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-23-2003, 11:32 AM
Somebody please help me out here...

I was listening to Farmer and Rooney on the radio while watching my TV with the volume turned down. Did I hear correctly that Colon was visibly upset inside the dugout after Manuel took him out? I know the "cover story" after the game and in the papers is that Colon told Cooper/Manuel that he was losing steam. However that is NOT the way I remember Rooney and Farmer calling the action during the eighth inning yesterday.

Is my memory playing games with me or can someone else who listened to the radio call confirm what I remember?

Help a brother out. :smile:

harwar
06-23-2003, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Did I hear correctly that Colon was visibly upset inside the dugout after Manuel took him out?

I always have both the tv & radio volumes turned up during Sox games.Over the years i've trained myself to listen to both(so i don't miss anything).If John or Ed said Colon was upset then i missed it .I was waiting for a closeup shot of Colon after he came out and when they showed him he was walking down the dugout in front of the bench on his way to the ramp.He did look wasted to me but something else i noticed was a sh#t eatin grin on his face.I'm not sure how to interperet that wry smile but i think it was either (they misunderstood me and now look was happens) or (i'm glad to be out of there).Someone needs to ask Colon just what in the heck happened yesteday.

voodoochile
06-23-2003, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by harwar
I always have both the tv & radio volumes turned up during Sox games.Over the years i've trained myself to listen to both(so i don't miss anything).If John or Ed said Colon was upset then i missed it .I was waiting for a closeup shot of Colon after he came out and when they showed him he was walking down the dugout in front of the bench on his way to the ramp.He did look wasted to me but something else i noticed was a sh#t eatin grin on his face.I'm not sure how to interperet that wry smile but i think it was either (they misunderstood me and now look was happens) or (i'm glad to be out of there).Someone needs to ask Colon just what in the heck happened yesteday.

He was laughing and joking with Manuel on the mound while waiting for Marte to come in.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-23-2003, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by harwar
I always have both the tv & radio volumes turned up during Sox games.Over the years i've trained myself to listen to both(so i don't miss anything).If John or Ed said Colon was upset then i missed it .I was waiting for a closeup shot of Colon after he came out and when they showed him he was walking down the dugout in front of the bench on his way to the ramp.He did look wasted to me but something else i noticed was a sh#t eatin grin on his face.I'm not sure how to interperet that wry smile but i think it was either (they misunderstood me and now look was happens) or (i'm glad to be out of there).Someone needs to ask Colon just what in the heck happened yesteday.

Thanks. It's good to have independent confirmation on these sorts of things. It's hard to remember who said what and when from a nine inning game. At least it is hard for me--I'm old. :cool: