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MHOUSE
06-22-2003, 04:07 PM
I checked out the game logs of our bullpen guys and their game logs show an badly inconsistent use of our bullpen. This is obivous if you watch many game and we all know that Jerry is a tinkerer with a history of strange pitching changes, but this season takes the cake for me. Most relievers say you should get work at least once every three days to stay sharp. Obviously you should go with you best guys in the clutch, but everyone needs work.

Koch 34 games 32.1 IP
Has not gone more than 3 games without work. Good deal, except that he hasn't been ready for save situations all the time because he has pitched in too many non-clutch situations.
Flash 32 games 36.0 IP
Went five games without pitching once and has been used A LOT. I don't mind using Flash. but when he doesn't have it, PULL HIM!
Marte 31 games 29.2 IP
Marte has been used enough as our best releiver, but I think he gets burned out going 2 or 3 games in a row and sometimes doesn't get in when Flash struggles.
White 22 games 28.0 IP
Look at the jump from around 30 games to around 20. How can these other guys stay sharp without regular work? Not good.
Wunsch 22 games 15.2 IP
He's on the DL which factors in, but he was pitching really well and still wasn't getting in. This was a bad move and it showed when Kelly lost his mojo after losing sharpness.
Glover 18 games 27.2 IP
He hasn't pitched very well, but Glover has not pitched for more than 3 days 7 TIMES this season which is ridiculous. Up to and including Saturday's win it has been 9 games since Glover pitched. This is awful and how can he be sharp when he's riding the pine so much? There is more than enough opportunity to get him work. He should be going into those extra inning games instead of Koch.
Sanders 14 games 16.1 IP
He has been up 2 months and hasn't gotten much work. Either bring up someone who will get in (Ginter, Porzio) or let him get work in the minors. He's gone 5 days without pitching 4 times.

Tragg
06-22-2003, 05:00 PM
Like I said earlier today, White should have been moved up in the bullpen rotation as he has pitched well lately. Marte has been getting killed since that Giant debacle and today's effort was no surprise.
I guess Manuel needed to lift Colon, but, again, against the Giants he doesn't bat an eye when pitching to bonds in the 9th as the tying run; today, he can't go any further against the cubs who hadn't gotten a run all day (and lifts him for a pitcher who has been stinking). I can't blame Manuel, but it's not consistent. And I think like you said, it does come down to general bullpen misuse.
Further, Manuel was warming up the pen in the 6th, which suggests that his plan all along was to let him go 7 regardless of the circumstances. He just isn't a baseball man.

THE_HOOTER
06-22-2003, 05:10 PM
I don't understand how you cannot blame Manuel.

97 pitches, and a three hitter going.

The only reason he comes out is if he was hurt.


Two hits came in the seventh didnt leave the infield!


If you leave him in there, we sweep.


He is guessing at the right move. I don't think we want a manager guessing.

DonkeyKongerko
06-22-2003, 05:12 PM
It's too easy to second guess him and I made sure to agree with his decision when Colon came out. There's a very good chance O'Leary would have gapped one with Colon struggling with his control today.

Tragg
06-22-2003, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by THE_HOOTER
I don't understand how you cannot blame Manuel.

97 pitches, and a three hitter going.


Well, since a lot of people blamed him for not yanking colon against the Giants (myself included), I thought I'd be nice and suggest it was a tough decision today, considering the pitch counts were similar.
But, I'm effing fuming, truth be told.

ilsox7
06-22-2003, 05:16 PM
I woulda kept in him versus Bonds too. And when he pulled him today I was fuming. I'm starting not to blame these players as much for not putting forth effort to improve fundamentals. If I'm a player on this team, I go to KW and say Fire him or trade me. Manuel has more lives than a cat.

jeremyb1
06-22-2003, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by THE_HOOTER
I don't understand how you cannot blame Manuel.

97 pitches, and a three hitter going.

The only reason he comes out is if he was hurt.


Two hits came in the seventh didnt leave the infield!


If you leave him in there, we sweep.


He is guessing at the right move. I don't think we want a manager guessing.

kinda like against the giants, right? its a very similar situation. in fact he'd thrown fewer pitches against the giants. also, while he hadn't allowed a run, he'd walked quite a few hitters. i don't see leaving colon in as a sure thing. when you have a pitcher with an era around 1.5 on the bench that hasn't pitched in two days and you have an off day the next day, you bring him in in a close game. do you think the braves leave maddux in if he's thrown 100 pitches going into the 9th and they have smoltz available? of course not. if you have one of the best relievers in baseball available, you use him. end of story.

TRL
06-22-2003, 05:19 PM
Fact is that Marte didn't get it done. I'd put Marte in that situation almost every time, today it just didn't work out. We got 2 of 3, let's hope we can do the same against the Twins.

Tragg
06-22-2003, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by TRL
Fact is that Marte didn't get it done. I'd put Marte in that situation almost every time, today it just didn't work out. We got 2 of 3, let's hope we can do the same against the Twins.

I wouldn't have - he's been pitching horridly and today was no exception. If you can yank Foulke out of the closer's role because of a couple of blown saves, Marte surely can be yanked as set-up man or whatever he is for 2 weeks of lousy pitching.

jeremyb1
06-22-2003, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
I wouldn't have - he's been pitching horridly and today was no exception. If you can yank Foulke out of the closer's role because of a couple of blown saves, Marte surely can be yanked as set-up man or whatever he is for 2 weeks of lousy pitching.

he gave up one earned run agains the giants and two others a different game. since it was only one bad pitch on which he allowed a home run to the giants i'd argue this is only his second bad outing recently. he's too good to stop giving innings to because he pitched poorly once or twice. he would've done a lot better today if the home plate ump wasn't squeezing him.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-22-2003, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by TRL
Fact is that Marte didn't get it done. I'd put Marte in that situation almost every time, today it just didn't work out. We got 2 of 3, let's hope we can do the same against the Twins.

If Marte had been established as Manuel's eighth inning set-up man, he deserved to pitch the eighth inning today. Manuel hasn't bothered to establish a role for any of his pitchers, thus it is all pretty random who goes in and who is left in the 'pen to scratch their head.

It's Manuel's fault that NOBODY knows what is expected of them and thus what yardstick to use for measuring "success" or "failure." Marte hasn't been given any such yardstick. Manuel is a fricking idiot for creating situations exactly like the one that occured today.

MHOUSE
06-23-2003, 12:23 AM
Marte overall is our best reliever, but lately he has been getting lit up. The homer against the Giants, then the other night he gave up three LONG fly outs that did not look good at all. Then today he gives up the two runs. He'll get it together, but he has not pitched well his last 3-4 outings. Once again Manuel misread his pitchers.