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valposoxfan
06-21-2003, 10:51 AM
In this morning's Trib, Manuel said Daubach will get the start over Frank at first because Clement is pitching. I realize that Daubach has been hitting better, but is this a good idea? Frank is still hitting the ball decent. The Sox are throwing out a ton of lefties today and we will probably see Rios at some point. Good God....Let's just keep some momentum going and win Game 2...
Go SOX!!!!

Brian26
06-21-2003, 10:55 AM
I hate this. Frank has got to be in the lineup everyday at this point. Poor move. You play lefty/righty matchups with bums like Rowand and Rios, not Frank Thomas.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-21-2003, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by valposoxfan
In this morning's Trib, Manuel said Daubach will get the start over Frank at first because Clement is pitching. I realize that Daubach has been hitting better, but is this a good idea?

In a word, "No."

That ****ing idiot cannot help himself.

:jerry
*tinker* *tinker* *tinker*

Daubach can't even get regular playing time at DH because Manuel keeps beating that dead horse that used to be a major league ballplayer named Paul Konerko.

The Sox can't score runs because Manuel can't keep himself from putting his best ballplayers on the bench. I would laugh if it didn't hurt so much. :angry:

34rancher
06-21-2003, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by Brian26
I hate this. Frank has got to be in the lineup everyday at this point. Poor move. You play lefty/righty matchups with bums like Rowand and Rios, not Frank Thomas.
I don't know, I think that this a pretty good move. Frank has gone 0-4 with 4 strikeouts vs. Clement so far. Plus Lefty's absolutely destroy Clement. I think that this is a good move, but what do I know?

hose
06-21-2003, 11:18 AM
Hurt is 0 for 4 against Clement with 4 k's and a walk.....OUCH


With Konerko tanking, the Sox have to get Daubach some ab's

voodoochile
06-21-2003, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by 34rancher
I don't know, I think that this a pretty good move. Frank has gone 0-4 with 4 strikeouts vs. Clement so far. Plus Lefty's absolutely destroy Clement. I think that this is a good move, but what do I know?

Stop stealing Daver's lines... :D:

Last year Clement was the only flubbie pitcher to do well against the Sox and Manuel is looking for an edge. Maybe the L/R matchup will work out. Maybe this is just more of the same tinkering we have all become used to.

The Sox are playing better. Frank has been right at the center of that improvement. Yesterday, they scored 12 runs. Clearly something needs to be done.

:firejerry

kevingrt
06-21-2003, 11:35 AM
I'm not horribly against this move, but it is a pretty bad move. It's not like Frank is in a slump, and how do you get tired playing 1B. At least Frank isn't all against it so it's not hurting his mentality.

Frank should be a good pinch hitter though, even though he has never been one in the past.

voodoochile
06-21-2003, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by kevingrt
I'm not horribly against this move, but it is a pretty bad move. It's not like Frank is in a slump, and how do you get tired playing 1B. At least Frank isn't all against it so it's not hurting his mentality.

Frank should be a good pinch hitter though, even though he has never been one in the past.

He'll still use Konerko, just watch...

gosox41
06-21-2003, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by 34rancher
I don't know, I think that this a pretty good move. Frank has gone 0-4 with 4 strikeouts vs. Clement so far. Plus Lefty's absolutely destroy Clement. I think that this is a good move, but what do I know?

4 at bats is hardly a fair sample size to measure success/failure. Include the fact that Frank was hurting all last season, and I have yet another reason to think this year will be different.

It's a stupid idea to bench the most productive hitter on the team because of 4 lousy at bats.

Bob

PaleHoseGeorge
06-21-2003, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
4 at bats is hardly a fair sample size to measure success/failure. Include the fact that Frank was hurting all last season, and I have yet another reason to think this year will be different.

It's a stupid idea to bench the most productive hitter on the team because of 4 lousy at bats.

Bob

EXACTLY!!! Thank you for stating the obvious.

We're taking our best hitter out of the line up because of FOUR lousy at-bats??? Gee, I didn't realize Matt Clement was so dominant over Frank Thomas across his career. It must be all those intra-division games we play with the Twins, Indians, Royals, Tigers, and Cubs. Oh, wait...

This is what is known as PLAYING TO LOSE. Manuel uses some lame excuse--four stupid at-bats from a year ago--to justify yet another outrageous bit of tinkering, "just to see what happens."

This guy is a ****ing idiot. I am beside myself with anger that he would **** around with our line up against the frickin' Flubs! :angry:

Cheeses!

Daver
06-21-2003, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


This guy is a ****ing idiot. I am beside myself with anger that he would **** around with our line up against the frickin' Flubs! :angry:




Don't hold back PHG,tell us how you really feel about Jerry..........


:redneck

PaleHoseGeorge
06-21-2003, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by daver
Don't hold back PHG,tell us how you really feel about Jerry..........


:redneck

Well, you know me...

:)

fquaye149
06-21-2003, 02:22 PM
maybe it's not thanks to manuel...but as long as the doubles are being hit, i don't care if it's frank or brian

gosox41
06-21-2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
maybe it's not thanks to manuel...but as long as the doubles are being hit, i don't care if it's frank or brian

Manuel seems to throw a lot of s*** against the wall to see what sticks. Over time it is not a good idea to platoon, by far, the team's most productive hitter in favor of a lesser hitter. Unless Frank was facing a pitcher that he was 2-50 against, I want him in the line up and don't want to hear about how 4 at bats warrant him sitting out. He's got a day off Monday. I'm sure he's juiced for this series and probably isn't so tired that he couldn't play 3 full games against the Cubs.


Bob

jeremyb1
06-21-2003, 04:54 PM
yeah. i think its a good idea to put daubach in the lineup but i put him in left for carlos and keep frank in the lineup.

LauraJ14
06-21-2003, 05:34 PM
Well the Daubach at 1st worked out okay today!
I want to see Frank on Sunday.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-21-2003, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by LauraJ14
Well the Daubach at 1st worked out okay today!
I want to see Frank on Sunday.

Umm... after Clement was pulled from throwing batting practice in the fourth, Jerry Manuel's screwball line up went scoreless and hitless the last 5.2 innings.

The Cubs--and Dusty Baker--gift-wrapped this ballgame.

:jerry
"Any resemblence between me and a blind squirrel is completely accurate!"

RKMeibalane
06-21-2003, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Umm... after Clement was pulled from throwing batting practice in the fourth, Jerry Manuel's screwball line up went scoreless and hitless the last 5.2 innings.

The Cubs--and Dusty Baker--gift-wrapped this ballgame.

:jerry
"Any resemblence between me and a blind squirrel is completely accurate!"

Agreed. Daubach had a good game, but Manuel was wrong to rest Frank today. Thomas should be in the lineup regardless of who's pitching for the opposition. If Manuel starts benching Frank based on the opposing team's starter, then other teams will juggle their rotations in order to keep his bat out of the lineup. It's been done before. Manuel may find that his "tinkering" works even less than he thinks.

hose
06-21-2003, 08:43 PM
JM was on the radio pre game radio show and he said Clement has over .100 difference between right and left handed batters.

Can't really argue with his logic on trying to stack a lefthanded hitting line up.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-21-2003, 08:49 PM
:angry: :angry: Originally posted by hose
JM was on the radio pre game radio show and he said Clement has over .100 difference between right and left handed batters.


Great. With that logic, why didn't that ****ing idiot bat Buehrle #3? He's left-handed, isn't he?

You don't bench your best hitter because of who is pitching for the other team--ever! You especially don't bench your best hitter when your offense is sputtering like the '03 Sox have been the last 2.5 months.

Sure, get Daubach in the game but NOT in place of Frank, fer chrissakes. Manuel is a stoned ****ing idiot.

:angry: :angry: :angry:

hose
06-21-2003, 09:02 PM
JM probably had visions of the 2002 Clement dominating Hurt and the rest of the Sox.

I am not trying to defend JM, but big time hitters like Larry Walker get days off against certain pitchers.

Now if JM sits Crede down tomorrow for Tony G. then I'll blow a gasket.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-21-2003, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by hose
JM probably had visions of the 2002 Clement dominating Hurt and the rest of the Sox.

I am not trying to defend JM, but big time hitters like Larry Walker get days off against certain pitchers.

Now if JM sits Crede down tomorrow for Tony G. then I'll blow a gasket.

When Crede leads the team in offense, I'll agree with you. And for the record, Monday is an off-day. I think Frank can soldier through against the Cubs until then.

MORON ----------->:jerry

RedPinStripes
06-21-2003, 09:13 PM
2 examples of Manuel not having a clue as a manager. ......................... Manuel is ALWAYS defending his tinkering with lefty/righty match ups. So why did he sit there completly stoned in the 8th inning and let Daugbach bat vs. Remlenger? And they had to know god damn well that the Cubs were gonna pinch hit for Remlinger in the 8th most-likely with Lenny Harris , So why the **** wasnt Marte warming up ???? And is there a reason that Flush Gordon has to go 2 innings every outing? And whoever has a good game tomorrow will be crying their eyes out rounding the bases because they know they'll get benched for it thte next day. He says he doesnt tinker too much with the lineup, yet he hasnt used the same lineup in 2 games straight this year. If the All-Star game is the only thing keeping Jerry's job, it's just another example of this pathetic organization. We saw the ****ty managing in the 2000 playoffs. He tried to real hard to mess this game up vs. the damn scrubs. Just imagine what the outcome of a game would be against a real team in the playoffs. HA! Just watch next week when we lose close games to the twins because they can play fundamental baseball and capitolize on every error we make weather it comes from the manager, base coaches or idiots on the field. Just had to vent. .......It's been a while. It's a good thing the Cubs suck because Manuel is terrible in close games.

MRKARNO
06-21-2003, 09:19 PM
The bigger question is that after Miguel Olivo Slams the sox to victory, why does manuel sit him and start Paul? Paul had a role in saving the game for us on the defensive end, but Olivo could have made that throw as well.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-21-2003, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
The bigger question is that after Miguel Olivo Slams the sox to victory, why does manuel sit him and start Paul?

Oh, that's an easy one. Clement has a 100 point difference between lefties and righties. Olivo bats righty while Josh bats lefty. Oh, wait...

:jerry
"God what I wouldn't do for a left-handed catcher!"

Konerkoholic
06-21-2003, 09:29 PM
There's no sense in asking why Manuel does most of what he does....there is no reason. This guy would be hilarious to watch if he didn't cost the team ballgames.

RedPinStripes
06-21-2003, 09:46 PM
I will give credit to Nossek or Kimm. Whoever it was that read the steal in the 9th. That saved the game there.

34rancher
06-21-2003, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
4 at bats is hardly a fair sample size to measure success/failure. Include the fact that Frank was hurting all last season, and I have yet another reason to think this year will be different.

It's a stupid idea to bench the most productive hitter on the team because of 4 lousy at bats.

Bob
First off Thomas agreed with the move, which says a lot. I don't want someone in the batter's box who has no confidence in the situation.
Second off, I think it turned out ok. :D:

Voodoo, I thank you for the compliment, but I beat Daver to the punch.

And whoever suggested that Daubach play left has obviously never seen him run. Who would win in a race, him or Paulie?

Daver
06-21-2003, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
The bigger question is that after Miguel Olivo Slams the sox to victory, why does manuel sit him and start Paul? Paul had a role in saving the game for us on the defensive end, but Olivo could have made that throw as well.

Mark Buerhle is not real comfortable throwing to Miguel,for whatever reason,he was used to having Mark Johnson as his personal catcher.

For what it is worth Mark is going to have to get over it.

RedPinStripes
06-21-2003, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by daver
Mark Buerhle is not real comfortable throwing to Miguel,for whatever reason,he was used to having Mark Johnson as his personal catcher.

For what it is worth Mark is going to have to get over it.

So he feels comfortable with Josh Paul knowing that Olivo is the Sox' future and has 10 times the telent? Eventhough Josh made 2 key plays at the plate today, someone needs to remind Mark that Josh Paul still sucks.

Daver
06-21-2003, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
So he feels comfortable with Josh Paul knowing that Olivo is the Sox' future and has 10 times the telent?

Basing this on nothing more than speculation,I think it has to do with Mark not being comfortable with a rookie calling the game,as Miguel has been gradually getting more responsibility calling his own game as the season progresses,while Josh still has all the pitches called for him by Joe Nossek.

Miguel catches almost all of Colon's games now because Colon calls his own pitches,but has learned to work with Miguel,and has actually helped teach him how to call a game.


But then again what the hell do I know? ©

RedPinStripes
06-21-2003, 10:45 PM
They need to get away from teh control freak crap with having a coach call a game from teh dugout. These are supposed to be MLB players, but then again, this is a screws up organization who hasnt come close to winning anything since 1959.

Daver
06-21-2003, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
They need to get away from teh control freak crap with having a coach call a game from teh dugout.

They call the game when Josh catches because he is incapable of doing it for himself,it is also why you saw Santanna out of the dugout positioning the outfielders during the game,something the catcher should do,and something I have seen Miguel do increasingly as this season has progressed.

Given the time needed to develop I think the Sox may have the best catcher this franchise has had since Pudge was here,though he probably won't put up the offensive numbers Pudge did.

Jjav829
06-21-2003, 11:45 PM
ChiSox361 on the ESPN board said it wasn't a bad move. Thats good enough for me. If ChiSox361 (Frank Thomas himself) agrees with taking Frank out, then you know it's not a bad move. Anyways Daubach did fine. He was on base twice and had a nice double. Of course some people won't give Manuel credit for a good move.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-21-2003, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
....Of course some people won't give Manuel credit for a good move.

That would be me. :smile:

Of course I'm still waiting for Manuel to offer a reason that makes a lick of sense for why he makes any of his moves. I could live with something that makes sense, but benching your best-hitting ballplayer just to play lefty/righty matchups is plain nuts--as the last 5.2 innings of today's game proves.

Jjav829
06-22-2003, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
That would be me. :smile:

Of course I'm still waiting for Manuel to offer a reason that makes a lick of sense for why he makes any of his moves. I could live with something that makes sense, but benching your best-hitting ballplayer just to play lefty/righty matchups is plain nuts--as the last 5.2 innings of today's game proves.

Yeah, but you're not the only one. :smile:

Anyways, I agreed with the move. I was actually thinking during Friday's game that Daubach should start against Clement. It's one game so I'm not gonna get all bent outta shape over it. Frank will be back in tomorrow and for the Twins series. Daubach did a good job. Maybe I'm just too happy over the win too care about who played or who didn't, I don't know.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-22-2003, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by Jjav829
....Daubach did a good job. Maybe I'm just too happy over the win too care about who played or who didn't , I don't know.

FWIW, I think Daubach is the obvious answer for everyday DH. The job should have been his to lose a month ago when Frank made the move to 1B. Why Manuel keeps pulling his chain (and everybody else's chain, too) can only be explained by one thing:

:jerry
"I do like to tinker, even though it usually doesn't work."

Jjav829
06-22-2003, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
FWIW, I think Daubach is the obvious answer for everyday DH. The job should have been his to lose a month ago when Frank made the move to 1B. Why Manuel keeps pulling his chain (and everybody else's chain, too) can only be explained by one thing:

:jerry
"I do like to tinker, even though it usually doesn't work."

Agreed. I think Daubach has to get more playing time, especially with the way he is hitting. But as we know JR doesn't pay $8 million to bench players so I doubt we'll see Daubach as a full time DH.

MRKARNO
06-22-2003, 12:13 AM
Originally posted by Jjav829
Agreed. I think Daubach has to get more playing time, especially with the way he is hitting. But as we know JR doesn't pay $8 million to bench players so I doubt we'll see Daubach as a full time DH.

Konerko might just be a special exception

Kilroy
06-22-2003, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
...as the last 5.2 innings of today's game proves.

If the last 5.2 innings proved something, then what did the first 3.1 innings prove?

voodoochile
06-22-2003, 01:04 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
If the last 5.2 innings proved something, then what did the first 3.1 innings prove?

That Matt Clement sucks...

Kilroy
06-22-2003, 01:08 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
That Matt Clement sucks...

He was 2-0 against us before today, so he was doing something right...

voodoochile
06-22-2003, 01:23 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
He was 2-0 against us before today, so he was doing something right...

Yeah, but today he couldn't hit his spots. He has to hit his spots to be effective - just like Buehrle. Guys like Colon can get away with a mistake every now and then because their stuff is so nasty. Clement is an average pitcher and he had an off day today.

RedPinStripes
06-22-2003, 01:47 AM
Originally posted by Jjav829
ChiSox361 on the ESPN board said it wasn't a bad move. Thats good enough for me. If ChiSox361 (Frank Thomas himself) agrees with taking Frank out, then you know it's not a bad move.

Ok, am i missing an inside joke here?

Jjav829
06-22-2003, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
Ok, am i missing an inside joke here?

ChiSox361 is the ultimate ignorant Frank ass licker. Some of the ESPN posters took to calling him Frank, saying that he was actually Frank Thomas himself posting from a laptop in the dugout. This guy is an absolute idiot. He would make posts complaining about Frank getting screwed because he hit a deep fly ball that wasn't a home run. He complains about the umpires bad calls every time Frank strikes out. He doesn't criticize Frank for anything but then goes and criticizes every other Sox player for any small mistake they make. If someone dares to criticize Frank (even if its deserved) he'll jump all over them to defend Frank. He complains about the most ridiculous things. The single most important thing to him is that Frank produces good numbers, and the teams success comes after that. He was actually upset on Friday because Frank didn't get a 5th AB with the Sox leading.....12-1! He got all pissed about this rather than just being happy that the Sox were blowing out the Flubs and letting PK get some AB's. Anyways, that was my reason for saying that if this guy felt that maybe Daubach should start for Frank, then you know it wasn't a bad move.

hose
06-22-2003, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Oh, that's an easy one. Clement has a 100 point difference between lefties and righties. Olivo bats righty while Josh bats lefty. Oh, wait...

:jerry
"God what I wouldn't do for a left-handed catcher!"


Here's Jerry's scouting report on Zambrano:

5.06 era in June

.243 ba for day vs. .207 at night

.256 ba for leftys vs. a .218 ba for rightys

#3 batter in line up is hitting .179
#5 batter in line up is at .286

Teams are hitting at a .444 clip with the bases loaded

innings 7-9 teams are batting .325


Better sit Frank :D:

PaleHoseGeorge
06-22-2003, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
He was 2-0 against us before today, so he was doing something right...

Which just goes to show how worthless small sample sizes are. Juggling our line up to face this guy was simply asking to get beat. If not for Clement, we would have been.

RedPinStripes
06-22-2003, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by Jjav829
ChiSox361 is the ultimate ignorant Frank ass licker. Some of the ESPN posters took to calling him Frank, saying that he was actually Frank Thomas himself posting from a laptop in the dugout. This guy is an absolute idiot. He would make posts complaining about Frank getting screwed because he hit a deep fly ball that wasn't a home run. He complains about the umpires bad calls every time Frank strikes out. He doesn't criticize Frank for anything but then goes and criticizes every other Sox player for any small mistake they make. If someone dares to criticize Frank (even if its deserved) he'll jump all over them to defend Frank. He complains about the most ridiculous things. The single most important thing to him is that Frank produces good numbers, and the teams success comes after that. He was actually upset on Friday because Frank didn't get a 5th AB with the Sox leading.....12-1! He got all pissed about this rather than just being happy that the Sox were blowing out the Flubs and letting PK get some AB's. Anyways, that was my reason for saying that if this guy felt that maybe Daubach should start for Frank, then you know it wasn't a bad move.


LOL!