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Viva Magglio
06-18-2003, 05:35 PM
Jerry Manuel will be one of the base coaches for the All Star Game. This is interesting. I can just imagine Joe Buck and Tim McCarver saying "3rd base coach Jerry Manuel has been on the hot seat here in Chicago..."

Foulke You
06-18-2003, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
Jerry Manuel will be one of the base coaches for the All Star Game. This is interesting. I can just imagine Joe Buck and Tim McCarver saying "3rd base coach Jerry Manuel has been on the hot seat here in Chicago..."

right about the time the boos rain down when they announce his name...

I can hear it now:

"The 3rd Base Coach from the Chicago White Sox, Jerry Manuel..."

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

sox_fan_forever
06-18-2003, 05:42 PM
How did he get selected?

I'm counting on all of you there to boo him!

Viva Magglio
06-18-2003, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
right about the time the boos rain down when they announce his name...

I can hear it now:

"The 3rd Base Coach from the Chicago White Sox, Jerry Manuel..."

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

There will be a lot of Sox fans there, but it won't be 46,000 Sox fans there. A lot of the persons there will be MLB officials and employees of corporate sponsors, not all of whom share the love for JM that we do. So when Gene Honda announces JM's name, the boos will not be overwhelming.

RibbieRubarb
06-18-2003, 05:57 PM
Do we really want to Boo him at the All Star game, we get so many oppurtunities at regular games

jortafan
06-18-2003, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by sox_fan_forever
How did he get selected?



Probably as a courtesy to the White Sox, since they're hosting the game. Also, don't forget that Jerry is one of the longest-serving American League managers. I think only Joe Torre has had his current job longer.

TornLabrum
06-18-2003, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by jortafan
Probably as a courtesy to the White Sox, since they're hosting the game. Also, don't forget that Jerry is one of the longest-serving American League managers. I think only Joe Torre has had his current job longer.

The home team manager is always one of the All-Star coaches.

gosox41
06-18-2003, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
Jerry Manuel will be one of the base coaches for the All Star Game. This is interesting. I can just imagine Joe Buck and Tim McCarver saying "3rd base coach Jerry Manuel has been on the hot seat here in Chicago..."

Could this be why he hasn't been fired yet?

:reinsy

It would be not good PR for me to fire the manager during the season when I knew he was going to be an All Star coach since April. How would the media perceive it if Wally Backman were an All Star coach? In case you haven't figured it out, I'm obviously much more interested in personal accolades then actually fielding a winning team. Besides we all know whose fault it is the team isn't doing better...the FANS.

voodoochile
06-18-2003, 10:35 PM
:jerry
"What do you mean I have to go out to third base and stand there all game? I'm worthless unless I get at least a 2 hour nap sometime between 7 and 10 every night. Nothing makes me sleepier than hearing the crack of the bat and seeing the player take the field. And that bench is just the right firmness for my back problems."

gosox41
06-18-2003, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
:jerry
"What do you mean I have to go out to third base and stand there all game? I'm worthless unless I get at least a 2 hour nap sometime between 7 and 10 every night. Nothing makes me sleepier than hearing the crack of the bat and seeing the player take the field. And that bench is just the right firmness for my back problems."

LMAO.

Konerkoholic
06-18-2003, 10:44 PM
The coach of the worst baserunning team I have ever seen (2002) is coaching 3rd base at the All-Star game. Hilarious. BTW Rubarb, your signature is hilarious; too bad it's too big.

MarkEdward
06-19-2003, 01:07 AM
Well, congrats to Jerry. I know many people here think Manuel's the reason for our troubles, but he isn't the reason for Paul Konerko's .550 OPS, Joe Crede's .623 OPS, Aaron Rowand's .484 OPS, or Willie Harris' .404 OPS.

But who needs to blame the players' crappy stats for losing when we can make a scapegoat out of the manager?

TornLabrum
06-19-2003, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Well, congrats to Jerry. I know many people here think Manuel's the reason for our troubles, but he isn't the reason for Paul Konerko's .550 OPS, Joe Crede's .623 OPS, Aaron Rowand's .484 OPS, or Willie Harris' .404 OPS.

But who needs to blame the players' crappy stats for losing when we can make a scapegoat out of the manager?

This would be an appropriate rant if the home team manager wasn't always one of the All-Star Game coaches. However, they always are. It's about as much an honor as being the Father of the Bride and getting to walk down the aisle with your daughter.

voodoochile
06-19-2003, 01:17 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Well, congrats to Jerry. I know many people here think Manuel's the reason for our troubles, but he isn't the reason for Paul Konerko's .550 OPS, Joe Crede's .623 OPS, Aaron Rowand's .484 OPS, or Willie Harris' .404 OPS.

But who needs to blame the players' crappy stats for losing when we can make a scapegoat out of the manager?

You have got to be kidding. Did you watch tonight's game? He sent Paul "the human double play machine" Konerko and his
.550 OPS up to pinch hit in the 8th - then allowed him to swing at the first pitch. Whose fault is that? And whose fault is it that the batters looked really confused against Wakefield allowing him to tie his season high in strikeouts? Does he do anything to prepare the team for a game aside from fill out a lineup card? What about no PR for Frank and then replacing him in the ninth anyway? What about his decision to PH Konerko for Daubach (the DH) and then putting Paulie in the field ensuring the pitchers would have to bat for the rest of the game thereafter?

The man is a menace. The sooner he is gone, the better this team will be.

Lip Man 1
06-19-2003, 01:55 AM
Be afraid, be very afraid!

The manager of the worst baserunning team in baseball could be the guy who determines whether or not to send in a runner that decides home field for the World Series!

But Manager Gandhi in the first or third base coaching box could be an educational experience. After all how many people can say they saw a person sleep standing up!

Lip

Kilroy
06-19-2003, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
You have got to be kidding. Did you watch tonight's game? He sent Paul "the human double play machine" Konerko and his
.550 OPS up to pinch hit in the 8th - then allowed him to swing at the first pitch. Whose fault is that?

Hold on Voodoo. As soon as they switched to a lefty, you knew Konerko was going to get the call. But it's not Jerry's fault that Konerko swung at the first pitch. That's Konerko's dumb-ass move. Coming off the bench cold, you should at least see a pitch or two just to catch up to the pace of the game. But w/ bases loaded, no outs, you absolutley have to give the pitcher a chance to hang himself. And that is all on Konerko right there. He knows he's not hitting well. He didn't get the job done in more ways than one in that at-bat.

I was pissed at JM for letting Jose bat righty while Graffy watched. Jose is anemic from the right side. And then, Jose gets a 3-0 count, takes, then swings on the 3-1 pitch. I don't care how far he hit it, or that Manny made a look-what-I-found catch. You absolutley take that 3-1 pitch. He makes his pitch there, fine. But you want to force him to have to make one again on 3-2. The pressure is all on the pitcher. Again, give him some rope and let him hang himself.

voodoochile
06-19-2003, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Hold on Voodoo. As soon as they switched to a lefty, you knew Konerko was going to get the call. But it's not Jerry's fault that Konerko swung at the first pitch. That's Konerko's dumb-ass move. Coming off the bench cold, you should at least see a pitch or two just to catch up to the pace of the game. But w/ bases loaded, no outs, you absolutley have to give the pitcher a chance to hang himself. And that is all on Konerko right there. He knows he's not hitting well. He didn't get the job done in more ways than one in that at-bat.

I was pissed at JM for letting Jose bat righty while Graffy watched. Jose is anemic from the right side. And then, Jose gets a 3-0 count, takes, then swings on the 3-1 pitch. I don't care how far he hit it, or that Manny made a look-what-I-found catch. You absolutley take that 3-1 pitch. He makes his pitch there, fine. But you want to force him to have to make one again on 3-2. The pressure is all on the pitcher. Again, give him some rope and let him hang himself.

Whose fault was it that Paulie was ALLOWED to swing at the first pitch? Why was he given the green light at all? That is ALL on Jerry.

The Valentin thing struck me as a defensive decision. He wanted Jose out there in the 9th inning, IMO. Too bad he swung at ball 4.

Kilroy
06-19-2003, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Whose fault was it that Paulie was ALLOWED to swing at the first pitch? Why was he given the green light at all? That is ALL on Jerry.

The Valentin thing struck me as a defensive decision. He wanted Jose out there in the 9th inning, IMO. Too bad he swung at ball 4.

IMO, taking pitches in a situation like that is not something you'd expect the manager to have to tell a player to do. Obviously, I'm wrong because PK did need to be told.

As for Valentin, if JM wanted him out there for his D, we're in trouble. And being at the game, I couldn't tell that it was ball 4. I could see high or low, but not really inside or outside. So that pisses me off even more that the pitch would have resulted in a walk which would have scored a run.

soxrme
06-19-2003, 12:26 PM
He should not be booed at the game. He is ours right or not and it would be another embarrassment on Sox fans for ESPN to put all over sports center. I am still waiting for all the wailing and nashing of teeth from them for the guy who ran on the field at Camden Yards.
Konerko should not have been put in!!!dumb move! :angry:

Iwritecode
06-19-2003, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
being at the game, I couldn't tell that it was ball 4. I could see high or low, but not really inside or outside. So that pisses me off even more that the pitch would have resulted in a walk which would have scored a run.

You should have been able to see it then. He used his golf swing to get to that ball...

voodoochile
06-19-2003, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
IMO, taking pitches in a situation like that is not something you'd expect the manager to have to tell a player to do. Obviously, I'm wrong because PK did need to be told.

As for Valentin, if JM wanted him out there for his D, we're in trouble. And being at the game, I couldn't tell that it was ball 4. I could see high or low, but not really inside or outside. So that pisses me off even more that the pitch would have resulted in a walk which would have scored a run.

This is my main gripe with JM. He doesn't seem to think he has to tell the players how to play either. Okay, then what exactly IS he supposed to do? He hasn't improved the team's fundamentals. He hasn't gotten consistently good play with his constant tinkering. He hasn't set a solid and consistent rotation in the bullpen and now he doesn't have to decide green light situations at crucial moments in the game? Sending Paulie up in the first place was dumb. Giving him the green light on the first pitch was an act of pure unadulterated stupidity.

:jerry
"Hey, I fill out the lineup card and buy the post game ice cream. What else do you want from me?"

Like it or not, Valentin is the best defensive SS on the team and he saved the team a run when he kept Nomar's single in the 8th in the infield, forcing the runner back to second. When Manny hit into a DP on the next pitch, it turned out to be huge. Graffanino is a solid backup, but he isn't as good defensively as Valentin. Manuel had already decided to put Konerko in at first for defensive purposes and Rowand came in the game also. Why would you consciously downgrade at SS in that situation?

MarkEdward
06-19-2003, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
You have got to be kidding. Did you watch tonight's game? He sent Paul "the human double play machine" Konerko and his
.550 OPS up to pinch hit in the 8th - then allowed him to swing at the first pitch. Whose fault is that?

Brian Daubach vs. lefties (2000-2002): .673 OPS
Paul Konerko vs. lefties (2000-2002): .807 OPS

As Mr. Burns once said: "It's called playing the percentages."

And whose fault is it that the batters looked really confused against Wakefield allowing him to tie his season high in strikeouts? Does he do anything to prepare the team for a game aside from fill out a lineup card?

Um, it couldn't be the batters' fault, could it? Or maybe the hitting coach?

What about no PR for Frank and then replacing him in the ninth anyway?

Did we have a better runner on the bench?

What about his decision to PH Konerko for Daubach (the DH) and then putting Paulie in the field ensuring the pitchers would have to bat for the rest of the game thereafter?

You're picking nits. We did win the game, right?

The man is a menace. The sooner he is gone, the better this team will be.

Yup. Without Jerry, we'd surely be in first place, by *at least* a dozen games.

Let's not blame Konerko, Crede, Harris, and Rowand for our terrible start.

voodoochile
06-19-2003, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Brian Daubach vs. lefties (2000-2002): .673 OPS
Paul Konerko vs. lefties (2000-2002): .807 OPS
As Mr. Burns once said: "It's called playing the percentages."
Um, it couldn't be the batters' fault, could it? Or maybe the hitting coach?
Did we have a better runner on the bench?
You're picking nits. We did win the game, right?
Yup. Without Jerry, we'd surely be in first place, by *at least* a dozen games.
Let's not blame Konerko, Crede, Harris, and Rowand for our terrible start.

I realize the players carry most of the blame for this subpar season, but the number of mistakes made directly by Manuel in that game was stunning. Yes, they won, but his decisions had the potential to cost the Sox should the game have become tied.

Couple of questions and points...

1)How are your percentages this season? Why keep pinch hitting a guy who is stinking it up as badly as Paul has been this year?

2)Josh Paul and Tony Graffanino were both on the bench. Either of them could have pinch ran for Frank - who was on third.

3)The quote by Mr. Burns was done as he pulled Darryl Strawberry (9/9, 9 grand slams) for a pinch hitter - Homer because Homer is a right handed hitter and they were bringing in a LH softball pitcher. Homer gets beaned in the head and thus drives in the winning run (while lying on the ground). That brings up two thoughts...
A)It worked even if it was the wrong move (sounds like JM)
B)Was that intended to defend JM?

JM has made enough mistakes this year in crucial situations - like his insistance in continuing to use Paulie as a pinch-hitter for Daubach - who has been on fire recently - just because a lefty pitcher comes out to the mound. Does he pinch hit for Frank, Magglio or Carlos everytime a righty gets brought into the game?

Manuel should have been fired a long time ago. His cluelessness is beyond compare in MLB. Heck Mr. Burns would be a fine replacement. At least he let the major leaguers play the whole game before pinch hitting in the ninth...

MarkEdward
06-19-2003, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I realize the players carry most of the blame for this subpar season, but the number of mistakes made directly by Manuel in that game was stunning. Yes, they won, but his decisions had the potential to cost the Sox should the game have become tied.

Couple of questions and points...

[QUOTE]1)How are your percentages this season? Why keep pinch hitting a guy who is stinking it up as badly as Paul has been this year?

Daubach vs. lefties, 2003: .375 OPS (8 ABs)
Konerko vs. lefties, 2003: .796 OPS (64 ABs)

2)Josh Paul and Tony Graffanino were both on the bench. Either of them could have pinch ran for Frank - who was on third.

You have a point in that Graffanino maybe should've pinch-run for Thomas. However, with Paul, most managers don't pinch-run or pinch-hit their backup catcher. I don't blame Manuel for using Paul yesterday.

Anyway, could Graffanino have scored on that double? I didn't watch the game (work), only heard the 8th and 9th innings on the radio.

3)The quote by Mr. Burns was done as he pulled Darryl Strawberry (9/9, 9 grand slams) for a pinch hitter - Homer because Homer is a right handed hitter and they were bringing in a LH softball pitcher. Homer gets beaned in the head and thus drives in the winning run (while lying on the ground). That brings up two thoughts...
A)It worked even if it was the wrong move (sounds like JM)
B)Was that intended to defend JM?

I used this quote:
A) Because I like Simpsons' quotes :) and
B) Daubach can't hit lefties at all. We needed a right-handed PH in that situation (I won't argue that Graff should've been used in that situation, though).


JM has made enough mistakes this year in crucial situations - like his insistance in continuing to use Paulie as a pinch-hitter for Daubach - who has been on fire recently - just because a lefty pitcher comes out to the mound. Does he pinch hit for Frank, Magglio or Carlos everytime a righty gets brought into the game?

The thing is that Lee, Ordonez, and Thomas hit righties equally well as they hit lefties (more or less). Daubach, as previously shown, cannot hit lefties *at all.*

Manuel should have been fired a long time ago. His cluelessness is beyond compare in MLB. Heck Mr. Burns would be a fine replacement. At least he let the major leaguers play the whole game before pinch hitting in the ninth...

Here's some quick opinions on Manuel:
1. He's not a great manager (Valentin shouldn't get one AB against a LHP, ever; Harris shouldn't be leading off).
2. He's not a horrible manager (doesn't use Josh Paul much, doesn't overuse "small ball," keeps clubhouse in order).
3. He's not destroying this team. He's not main reason we're losing this year. Off the top of my head, Konerko, Crede, Harris, Rowand, and Koch are all bigger culprits.

voodoochile
06-19-2003, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
You have a point in that Graffanino maybe should've pinch-run for Thomas. However, with Paul, most managers don't pinch-run or pinch-hit their backup catcher. I don't blame Manuel for using Paul yesterday.

Anyway, could Graffanino have scored on that double? I didn't watch the game (work), only heard the 8th and 9th innings on the radio. I won't argue that Graff should've been used in that situation, though.

That's all I'm saying. Today, same thing - Graff could have pinch hit for Daubach leading off the 8th - which would have made him the DH and thus he would have been bunting in the 10th, no Paulie. Heck, he could have pinch bunted for Konerko anyway. What is his infatuation with Paul Konerko this season? Time to give the guy a month off.

No, Graff wouldn't have scored last night as a PR. It was a DP that started at home. The point isn't whether it would have changed the game, but at the time, he had no way of knowing that fact.

Here's some quick opinions on Manuel:
1. He's not a great manager (Valentin shouldn't get one AB against a LHP, ever; Harris shouldn't be leading off).
2. He's not a horrible manager (doesn't use Josh Paul much, doesn't overuse "small ball," keeps clubhouse in order).
3. He's not destroying this team. He's not main reason we're losing this year. Off the top of my head, Konerko, Crede, Harris, Rowand, and Koch are all bigger culprits.

I don't want an average manager who makes dumb decisions on the way he thinks things ought to be (Harris OUGHT to be a leadoff hitter, Paulie OUGHT to be able to come through in the clutch, The team OUGHT to be able to bunt, etc.) I want a manger who manages the team he has to the best of their ability, not their potential ability. Manuel fails at that task daily. I also don't want a manager who is even PART of the reason the Sox are losing ever. Even Manuel's supporters have to be getting tired of this crap and have to concede he has made enough mistakes that have cost the Sox games or had the potential to cost the Sox games.

MarkEdward
06-19-2003, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
That's all I'm saying. Today, same thing - Graff could have pinch hit for Daubach leading off the 8th - which would have made him the DH and thus he would have been bunting in the 10th, no Paulie. Heck, he could have pinch bunted for Konerko anyway. What is his infatuation with Paul Konerko this season? Time to give the guy a month off.

This is just a little conspiracy theory of mine, but I believe that Graffanino must be in Manuel's doghouse. He has a pretty good OPS, and has been killing lefties.

I think Manuel is still playing Konerko because A) he's trying to get Paul back on the right track and B) Kenny Williams won't let a 27 million dollar player rot on the bench.

No, Graff wouldn't have scored last night as a PR.

So it's pretty much a moot point. I don't think Graffanino would've stopped the double play, either.

I don't want an average manager who makes dumb decisions on the way he thinks things ought to be (Harris OUGHT to be a leadoff hitter, Paulie OUGHT to be able to come through in the clutch, The team OUGHT to be able to bunt, etc.) I want a manger who manages the team he has to the best of their ability, not their potential ability. Manuel fails at that task daily. I also don't want a manager who is even PART of the reason the Sox are losing ever. Even Manuel's supporters have to be getting tired of this crap and have to concede he has made enough mistakes that have cost the Sox games or had the potential to cost the Sox games.

I guess I can see your point. For much of this year, I've agreed with Manuel's lineup decisions. Jimenez should be leading off, and has been for most of the season. Thomas should be hitting second, and Mags third. Here's where our hitting problem comes in. We have no number four hitter (if Thomas hits second). Lee is the closest thing to a fourth hitter, and he only has a .446 SLG%. So a lot of Manuel's problems have come from a lack of hitters.

Once again, when your combined corner infielders have an OPS of 1.158 (smaller than Barry Bonds' OPS), then *any* manager will look bad.