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fquaye149
06-16-2003, 10:38 PM
...but not if we trade colon, loaiza, lee, thomas, whoever else williams is planning on dumping. would it kill reinsdorf to reach in his pocket and buy us a centerfielder or a shortstop or a middle reliever? i'm sad to say, it looks like the answer is yes

MRKARNO
06-16-2003, 10:43 PM
I'm hoping that either Borchard, Harris or Rowand will work out. I think that one of the three has to. The sox are intent on Harris being the starter I think.

White needs to go. We should pick up Acevedo instead (not in teal). Acevedo showed that he can pitch well early in the season.

Sanders isn't ready. When Wunsch is back it might be better to send him down and recall Aaron Miles

What can we do about Konerko?

I think that if we keep most of our players, we can still make a run at the playoffs. Taking 2 or 3 from boston would be good.

Meixner007
06-16-2003, 10:44 PM
3 of 4 from boston would be better

FJA
06-16-2003, 11:12 PM
If it makes anyone feel any better, on this day in 1983, we were 28-32, in 5th place in the ol' AL West.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-16-2003, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by FJA
If it makes anyone feel any better, on this day in 1983, we were 28-32, in 5th place in the ol' AL West.

Speaking only for myself, it makes me feel better. Thanks!

:gulp:

Konerkoholic
06-16-2003, 11:20 PM
Anyone think Erstad is still attainable? Anaheim's not making the playoffs this year and they have this guy DaVanon...How about Erstad for Garland again?

sox_fan_forever
06-16-2003, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by FJA
If it makes anyone feel any better, on this day in 1983, we were 28-32, in 5th place in the ol' AL West.

It makes me feel better too!

FJA
06-16-2003, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by Konerkoholic
Anyone think Erstad is still attainable? Anaheim's not making the playoffs this year and they have this guy DaVanon...How about Erstad for Garland again?

Don't know about Erstad, but, with the way Garland's been pitching, I'd be really hesitant about leaving that hole in the rotation.

That being said, if we could find a way to get Erstad without losing any starting pitching (other than maybe Wright) or the essentials, I think we could make a very serious run. If Maggs regains form and Carlos picks up some ... what an outfield.

Meixner007
06-16-2003, 11:30 PM
what about giving them caballo and wright and having borchard in left.

MHOUSE
06-17-2003, 02:52 AM
Caballo and Wright would be overpaying. Garland has pitched well lately and perhaps this is his time to show he has it. There's more to our woes than netting Erstad will solve.

39thandWallace
06-17-2003, 04:00 AM
Originally posted by fquaye149
...but not if we trade colon, loaiza, lee, thomas, whoever else williams is planning on dumping. would it kill reinsdorf to reach in his pocket and buy us a centerfielder or a shortstop or a middle reliever? i'm sad to say, it looks like the answer is yes

Even if we did make the playoffs, which would probably not be to hard in this division. We would get swept out of the playoffs because we don't have any gamers on this team.

Kilroy
06-17-2003, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by 39thandWallace
Even if we did make the playoffs, which would probably not be to hard in this division. We would get swept out of the playoffs because we don't have any gamers on this team.

Hey, I'd rather see this team climb back into it and make the playoffs than fade, even if they got swept out. That would help us hold on to the players that I think we need to be keeping instead of dumping before the deadline.

Colon, Loaiza, CLee. Even Maggs and Buehrle have been mentioned as deadline dumps. I don't wanna see that. I want to see all those guys back here next year, w/ some speed and d added in CF and at short.

We've got a nucleus now. Don't blow it up...

MarqSox
06-17-2003, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by 39thandWallace
Even if we did make the playoffs, which would probably not be to hard in this division. We would get swept out of the playoffs because we don't have any gamers on this team.

While the old "just happy to be here" thing is irritating, you gotta admit, being in a pennant race is more fun than where we're at now. You're right, we probably won't do much in the playoffs if we make it, but hey, who thought the Angels would do anything besides play roadkill for the Yankees last year?

fquaye149
06-17-2003, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by 39thandWallace
Even if we did make the playoffs, which would probably not be to hard in this division. We would get swept out of the playoffs because we don't have any gamers on this team.


i don't know about that.

in order to make the playoffs you'd have to assume we'd start hitting...and seriously...magglio and frank are gamers. c lee has been known to be cluctch...and konerko...well....

yeah anyway

we have top notch starting pitching...3 potentially dominating starters...possibly even 4 if garland can show he can pitch the big game. i think at the beginning of the year i would have put this team with the top teams...of course how was i to know we'd hit so badly?

but like i said, if we were to make the playoffs it would be because we actually started to hit.

gosox41
06-17-2003, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by FJA
If it makes anyone feel any better, on this day in 1983, we were 28-32, in 5th place in the ol' AL West.

It doesn't. Do you work for the Sox PR department?

gosox41
06-17-2003, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by fquaye149
...but not if we trade colon, loaiza, lee, thomas, whoever else williams is planning on dumping. would it kill reinsdorf to reach in his pocket and buy us a centerfielder or a shortstop or a middle reliever? i'm sad to say, it looks like the answer is yes

Every time the Sox play a couple of good games and get people excited they disappoint...again. Last time the sox were 6 1/2 out of minnesota and they dropped the next 2 and were back to 8 1/2. It's tiime for this trend to stop.

The Sox found ways to lose two games last week, the last game against San Fran. and the last game against San Diego. They'd have a 5 game winning streak right now and be 4 1/2 games out if they didn't suck so bad.

Bob

NewyorkSoxFan
06-17-2003, 09:27 AM
I see everyone is feeling good this morning. The "sun" has risen on us sox fans, for at least one day. I agree, we are not out of it, and I just have this feeling that this team is about to get on a roll. We will know more after this series and the showdown with the Flubs this weekend.

That being said I don't think we need an All-star CF'er. Just a guy who is a good defender, and has some speed, with a .260 avg. What I think we will need if we get back in it is one more proven pitcher. Al leiter is a guy who is a gamer, has experience, pitches from the left side, and would make us all forget about K. Rogers.

There is talk that the Mets are ready to purge and I think he has only a year or two left on his deal. That would give us a very dangerous rotation, that could match the Yankees, or Mariners, or A's if we made the playoffs. Of course the boys have to hit, and play somewhat smart, but its doable.

NYSF

Hangar18
06-17-2003, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Hey, I'd rather see this team climb back into it and make the playoffs than fade, even if they got swept out. That would help us hold on to the players that I think we need to be keeping instead of dumping before the deadline.

Colon, Loaiza, CLee. Even Maggs and Buehrle have been mentioned as deadline dumps. I don't wanna see that. I want to see all those guys back here next year, w/ some speed and d added in CF and at short.

We've got a nucleus now. Don't blow it up...

Hey, Kenny Williams. Are You Reading This? THIS IS HOW GOOD TEAMS GET BETTER. THEY KEEP their Good Players
and get better ones to compliment them. Do you see the Yankees trading all their players and starting over? I'll answer
that for you .......NO. Its why they have 26 world series
appearances........

boog_alou
06-17-2003, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by FJA
If it makes anyone feel any better, on this day in 1983, we were 28-32, in 5th place in the ol' AL West.

On the other hand, on this day in 2002, the Sox were 34-35.

delben91
06-17-2003, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
Every time the Sox play a couple of good games and get people excited they disappoint...again. Last time the sox were 6 1/2 out of minnesota and they dropped the next 2 and were back to 8 1/2. It's tiime for this trend to stop.

The Sox found ways to lose two games last week, the last game against San Fran. and the last game against San Diego. They'd have a 5 game winning streak right now and be 4 1/2 games out if they didn't suck so bad.

Bob

Have to agree with you Bob. I'd love to be convinced otherwise, but until the Sox keep a streak going, even winning several series in a row, I'm going to maintain my skepticism.

Gumshoe
06-17-2003, 11:05 AM
Unless they streak ... I've said that so many times. When you have a manager that can't manage to win close games, how do you go on an 8 game or more tear? Doesn't happen. Unless we just start scoring 8 runs / game, we won't make a streak. I hope I'm wrong, but I just don't trust Manuel. He has made WAY too many stupid moves, and can't sit on a lineup ...

Gum

voodoochile
06-17-2003, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by boog_alou
On the other hand, on this day in 2002, the Sox were 34-35.

This is another example of the kind of crap that isn't allowed. If you were a Sox fan and were interested in seeing the team succeed and discussing those possibilities, then it would be more acceptable. Since this is the only type of comments you make, it isn't.

Since this was posted before the warning I gave you, I won't ban you this time, but your time is coming if you keep it up. No one wants to read a bunch of purely negative trollish type comments on this board. That is why we post here. Last chance, boog. Don't push your luck.

FJA
06-17-2003, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
It doesn't. Do you work for the Sox PR department?

No, I don't, but I don't think anyone around here is showing flashes of flubbie blue and saying, because of this win, we MUST be headed to the World Series. Our "ace" finally pitched well for eight innings, Crede is finally coming through on a consistent basis, and, pitch count or no pitch count, we got one of the best pitchers in recent history out of there in five innings to give the team a chance to win. And it was a good win--one of the few we've had this season.

At 6 1/2 out in a weak division with 13 games left against Minnesota, anything can happen. As for my '83 comment, it wasn't meant as much more than an anecdote, but on second thought, the Sox had to pass up four teams that year in the second half to get to where they did. This year, we have to pass up two. Now, I was too young to remember, but I'm sure people then weren't saying, "Five games under .500, no problem! This is the Sox we're talking about!" Sox fans just aren't that stupid. But after June 16, the Sox went 71-31, which will shut people up very quickly.

That's not to say that this team is the '83 Sox or that the 2003 Sox are even capable of playing 40 games over .500 baseball. But then again, they don't have to. The point is, in the middle of June, with a team as talented (albeit underachieving) as this one is offensively, winning is not out of the question.

I'm not getting my hopes up for the playoffs yet, but even if I were, it would be no more ridiculous than saying we don't have a chance.

voodoochile
06-17-2003, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by FJA
No, I don't, but I don't think anyone around here is showing flashes of flubbie blue and saying, because of this win, we MUST be headed to the World Series. Our "ace" finally pitched well for eight innings, Crede is finally coming through on a consistent basis, and, pitch count or no pitch count, we got one of the best pitchers in recent history out of there in five innings to give the team a chance to win. And it was a good win--one of the few we've had this season.

At 6 1/2 out in a weak division with 13 games left against Minnesota, anything can happen. As for my '83 comment, it wasn't meant as much more than an anecdote, but on second thought, the Sox had to pass up four teams that year in the second half to get to where they did. This year, we have to pass up two. Now, I was too young to remember, but I'm sure people then weren't saying, "Five games under .500, no problem! This is the Sox we're talking about!" Sox fans just aren't that stupid. But after June 16, the Sox went 71-31, which will shut people up very quickly.

That's not to say that this team is the '83 Sox or that the 2003 Sox are even capable of playing 40 games over .500 baseball. But then again, they don't have to. The point is, in the middle of June, with a team as talented (albeit underachieving) as this one is offensively, winning is not out of the question.

I'm not getting my hopes up for the playoffs yet, but even if I were, it would be no more ridiculous than saying we don't have a chance.

The ugly way this team wins games is very reminiscent of that team too. Saturday was a serious stinker, but they slugged their way to victory. The offense heats up, anything is possible. Especially with the way the SP has performed this year. For the first time in a long time the Sox have 5 pitchers who can go out and throw 8 strong innings in any outing regardless of the competition. Yeah, Wright and Garland still have to prove themselves, but they seem to be on the right track.

valposoxfan
06-17-2003, 12:02 PM
Ok, I am officially telling the "WSI members finally having some hope" jinx to stay the F*** away this time, because the last time there was some documented hope on this board, myself included, we dropped two to the Giants. Here's to hopefully finally riding some momentum... :gulp: :gulp:

boog_alou
06-17-2003, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
This is another example of the kind of crap that isn't allowed. If you were a Sox fan and were interested in seeing the team succeed and discussing those possibilities, then it would be more acceptable. Since this is the only type of comments you make, it isn't.

Since this was posted before the warning I gave you, I won't ban you this time, but your time is coming if you keep it up. No one wants to read a bunch of purely negative trollish type comments on this board. That is why we post here. Last chance, boog. Don't push your luck.

Are you kidding me? Someone posted that in 83 the Sox had a similar record to this year (implying that they still have a shot at turning it around). I posted the counterargument which is that the Sox had a slightly better record this time last year and still didn't turn it around.

So the problem isn't what I posted by whether or not I want the Sox to succeed? And no, this isn't the only type of comment I make. How many of my posts on this board have you seen?

I'll be sure to include stats and voluminous argumentation with every single comment I make from now on. Thanks.

valposoxfan
06-17-2003, 12:05 PM
And about the '83 thing, Newyorksoxfan and I were talking about the '83 team a little less than a month ago and we both agreed about how the teams were similar. Both were just brutal before Memorial Day and then both started showing flashes of hope following Memorial Day. There have definitely been some bright spots coming from the offense and the pitching continues to keep us in games. The '83 comment makes me feel better and gives me the slightest, and I emphasize slightest hope that maybe we can catch up with Minny.

JUGGERNAUT
06-17-2003, 12:22 PM
Nothing has changed. The SOX were 6.5 gb then & still are. They are still 3.5 gb of KC.

Why has nothing changed?
Because despite the gains in the pitching, & Thomas' swing we are still a butt ugly worsening fundamentally wise MLB team.

I have seen no less than 5 balls hit to CF betw Rowand & Rios where the ball has going over there heads but dropped before the warning track. THAT'S A FREAKIN' CARDINAL SIN IN THE GAME OF MLB!

If I were JM I would have kicked dirt at them & said GO HOME when they got back in.

I have seen no less than 9 runs lost because of base-running blunders.

I'm not only losing hope in this team but now I'm losing respect for them.

I've not giving up .. yet, but I just don't see any thing that's suddenly going to change our little leaguers into MLers to mount a drive on this season.

They are butt ugly the worst play making team I've seen in a long time.
:angry: :angry: :angry:

xil357
06-17-2003, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by JUGGERNAUT
Nothing has changed. The SOX were 6.5 gb then & still are. They are still 3.5 gb of KC.

Why has nothing changed?
Because despite the gains in the pitching, & Thomas' swing we are still a butt ugly worsening fundamentally wise MLB team.

I have seen no less than 5 balls hit to CF betw Rowand & Rios where the ball has going over there heads but dropped before the warning track. THAT'S A FREAKIN' CARDINAL SIN IN THE GAME OF MLB!

If I were JM I would have kicked dirt at them & said GO HOME when they got back in.

I have seen no less than 9 runs lost because of base-running blunders.

I'm not only losing hope in this team but now I'm losing respect for them.

I've not giving up .. yet, but I just don't see any thing that's suddenly going to change our little leaguers into MLers to mount a drive on this season.

They are butt ugly the worst play making team I've seen in a long time.
:angry: :angry: :angry:

I agree that the defense up the middle is scary, but in this weak division and with the Sox strong starting rotation, you have to admit that if the bats heat up it is within the realm of possibility that that Sox could put together a 2nd half like in 83 or the first half of 2000 (or the 97 Marlins or 02's Angels, for that matter) and ride into the playoffs hot. Maybe I'm drinking the kool aid but it is possible and I'd like to maintain HOPE that it can happen with the right moves to RE-LOAD on the fly with a stopgap defensive-minded CF who could bat ninth and bunt himself aboard.

They got to the playoffs in 2000 with Chris Singleton in CF and Valentin at SS with a much weaker rotation. Valentin isn't the long term answer and that position can be upgraded after the season through free agency (Tejada?) CF also can be upgraded after 2004 (Beltran). The core of this team is solid. It just needs to be RE-LOADED.

Meanwhile for the rest of 2003, it wouldn't take much more than the pitching staying consistent and the bats to come around to their historical levels to contend with the Twins.

As for those who worry about the bullpen, what team DOESN'T have bullpen issues? Name a team with five or six great bullpen pitchers? Even the best bullpens have, at most, three solid pitchers and the rest are mop-up guys like Rick White. However much he may be a heart attack waiting to happen, Koch is a proven closer. Marte has been solid and Gordon has gotten the job done for the most part. With a strong rotation you don't need much more than what they have now in the pen.

The Sox will be OK if the bats return to their career average levels and the pitching and defense don't regress. If we were in the West then it would be time to pack it in and trade off the useless parts for 2004. But in the Central, anyone outside of Detroit and Cleveland has a shot.

Gumshoe
06-17-2003, 03:02 PM
However much he may be a heart attack waiting to happen, Koch is a proven closer. Marte has been solid and Gordon has gotten the job done for the most part. With a strong rotation you don't need much more than what they have now in the pen.

I hear what you are saying but the above has MAJOR issues. Koch can't really be consistently trusted. He walks FAR too many people, and I don't think a "proven" closer should have an ERA as high as his career ERA. But I digress, he hasn't been as brutal as Gordon. He's gotten the job done? Oh my god, this is the worst statement I've heard from a Sox fan on a post in a long time. This is what makes people think they don't watch the games, or at least the same games. While I agree with your post in general, this statement has to be stricken. Did you see the Arizona game? Cleveland? Minnesota passed ball game? Baltimore? He has almost singlehandedly blown 5 games. I fault Jerry for the most part because he would bring in Gordon to blow the lead THEN bring in Marte to save him.

I really would move Koch and make Marte the closer, Wunsch a setup man, and find a respectable righty. WE HAVE NO solid righties out of the pen. We'll see what happens, but hopefully we'll score so many runs in the coming weeks that we won't have to worry that much when Kroch and Crash come in the games.

Gumshoe

NewyorkSoxFan
06-17-2003, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
This is another example of the kind of crap that isn't allowed. If you were a Sox fan and were interested in seeing the team succeed and discussing those possibilities, then it would be more acceptable. Since this is the only type of comments you make, it isn't.

Since this was posted before the warning I gave you, I won't ban you this time, but your time is coming if you keep it up. No one wants to read a bunch of purely negative trollish type comments on this board. That is why we post here. Last chance, boog. Don't push your luck.

Thank you and Amen brother, him and a few others that I won't call out right now, are always so negative. If you hate the team that much go root for the Flubs. That guy never has anything positive to say.

NYSF

NewyorkSoxFan
06-17-2003, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by valposoxfan
And about the '83 thing, Newyorksoxfan and I were talking about the '83 team a little less than a month ago and we both agreed about how the teams were similar. Both were just brutal before Memorial Day and then both started showing flashes of hope following Memorial Day. There have definitely been some bright spots coming from the offense and the pitching continues to keep us in games. The '83 comment makes me feel better and gives me the slightest, and I emphasize slightest hope that maybe we can catch up with Minny.

Don't bury this team just yet. This division is so bad anything can happen. Last time I checked nobody was talking about the Angels in June either. Is it probable that they can make a run? NO. But not impossible.

In the words of the immortal Michael Corleone: "If history has taught us anything, its that anybody can be killed". I don't know if that fits I just like the line. :)

NYSF

Iwritecode
06-17-2003, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Thank you and Amen brother, him and a few others that I won't call out right now, are always so negative. If you hate the team that much go root for the Flubs. That guy never has anything positive to say.

NYSF

Don't be fooled by the D'backs fan. Check his profile, he's an "anti-fan" thus the reason for the negativity...

boog_alou
06-17-2003, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Don't be fooled by the D'backs fan. Check his profile, he's an "anti-fan" thus the reason for the negativity...
I'm not trying to fool anybody. I've always been very straightforward about my allegiances and my feelings about the Sox. That is one of the reasons I put it all in my profile.

By the way, my anti-fan negativity is at least as reasonable as fan-optimism. And, I think mine is a bit more grounded in reality. At least my view of the team is reflected in how it is performing this season and how it has performed for the last two seasons. My opinion, of course.

gosox41
06-17-2003, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by FJA
No, I don't, but I don't think anyone around here is showing flashes of flubbie blue and saying, because of this win, we MUST be headed to the World Series. Our "ace" finally pitched well for eight innings, Crede is finally coming through on a consistent basis, and, pitch count or no pitch count, we got one of the best pitchers in recent history out of there in five innings to give the team a chance to win. And it was a good win--one of the few we've had this season.

At 6 1/2 out in a weak division with 13 games left against Minnesota, anything can happen. As for my '83 comment, it wasn't meant as much more than an anecdote, but on second thought, the Sox had to pass up four teams that year in the second half to get to where they did. This year, we have to pass up two. Now, I was too young to remember, but I'm sure people then weren't saying, "Five games under .500, no problem! This is the Sox we're talking about!" Sox fans just aren't that stupid. But after June 16, the Sox went 71-31, which will shut people up very quickly.

That's not to say that this team is the '83 Sox or that the 2003 Sox are even capable of playing 40 games over .500 baseball. But then again, they don't have to. The point is, in the middle of June, with a team as talented (albeit underachieving) as this one is offensively, winning is not out of the question.

I'm not getting my hopes up for the playoffs yet, but even if I were, it would be no more ridiculous than saying we don't have a chance.

I hope you're right about this team turning it around. I'm just looking at the numbers of recent history for this team and they suggest the inability to put together a solid win streak until the team is all but out of it. I hope I'm wrong but there are certain trends that have occurred under the JM reign, and one of them is the ability to rally late in the season and appear mediocre.

Any time this offense wants to wake up and take over is fine by me. It's more frustrating knowing the Sox have the starting pitching to be in first place.

Bob

MRKARNO
06-17-2003, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
I hope you're right about this team turning it around. I'm just looking at the numbers of recent history for this team and they suggest the inability to put together a solid win streak until the team is all but out of it. I hope I'm wrong but there are certain trends that have occurred under the JM reign, and one of them is the ability to rally late in the season and appear mediocre.

Any time this offense wants to wake up and take over is fine by me. It's more frustrating knowing the Sox have the starting pitching to be in first place.

Bob

As far as I'm concerned, with the Sox starting pitching the way it's been, 4 or 5 runs a night will allow us to beat most teams. I feel confident that on any given night, Colon, Loaiza, Garland and Buerhle have a 4 in 5 chance to have a quality start. (Wright was left out on purpose.

I think that if the sox by some miracle got to the playoffs, that they would advance. Do any teams really want to face Colon, Buehrle, Loaiza and Garland in a short series or in a long series for that matter? I think that if the offense all of a sudden got up to league average that not only would the sox zoom to first place, but also they would do well in the playoffs

Somehow I think that the sox will be battling the Royals and not the Twins come august/september. Just ask Eddie Guardado

doublem23
06-17-2003, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by 39thandWallace
Even if we did make the playoffs, which would probably not be to hard in this division. We would get swept out of the playoffs because we don't have any gamers on this team.

Throw in a little offense, keep the staff as good as it has been, and you got yourself a dangerous play-off team.

Go Sox!

soxtalker
06-18-2003, 07:00 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
Throw in a little offense, keep the staff as good as it has been, and you got yourself a dangerous play-off team.

Go Sox!

Must disagree. The offense coming around might win them the division -- though even that is questionable. The problem in the playoffs is that the pitching gets better, which has a tendancy to shut down good hitting. Things like defense and playing smart baseball (e.g., running the bases) become more important. And the Sox haven't shown much improvement in these categories.

delben91
06-18-2003, 08:17 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker
Must disagree. The offense coming around might win them the division -- though even that is questionable. The problem in the playoffs is that the pitching gets better, which has a tendancy to shut down good hitting. Things like defense and playing smart baseball (e.g., running the bases) become more important. And the Sox haven't shown much improvement in these categories.

I have a theory on the bad base running. I think that since the offense has been so anemic through the first 2.5 months of the season, that once a Sox player gets to second base, he's so discombobulated having not been there in so long, that he wanders around in disbelief and in turn gets picked off.

But that's just me. :D:

TornLabrum
06-18-2003, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by delben91
I have a theory on the bad base running. I think that since the offense has been so anemic through the first 2.5 months of the season, that once a Sox player gets to second base, he's so discombobulated having not been there in so long, that he wanders around in disbelief and in turn gets picked off.

But that's just me. :D:

Only one hole in the theory. The Sox baserunning has been bad ever since the "Kids Can Play" days.