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View Full Version : Manuel should not be fired


xil357
06-16-2003, 02:14 PM
I know that ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd have a fruitcake, but that was a winnable game on Sunday, and if they had won the tone would be totally different. It would be "hey, they played the defending NL champs close, swept the Padres and have won four of the last six and six of nine."

The team has failed to hit. PERIOD. Scoring five runs per game, what they averaged last year, would cover up baserunning gaffes and the Sox would be within three games of the Twins or better, definitely over .500.

I know it is ridiculous to play hypotheticals, but we DO know that the defense is pretty marginal (especially up the middle) and the starting pitching has been strong. Lack of run production makes other areas appear weaker, calling into question the manager's moves, bullpen meltdowns and baserunning problems.

Every manager gets fired unless he quits first. Fans are always going to question the managers' moves, whether you have Manuel or LaRussa or Torre or Casey Stengel. If the team doesn't hit to the level at which it is capable, the team is going to lose games. The only BIG thing for which you legitimately can criticize Manuel is not benching Paul Konerko earlier and not moving Frank to 1B sooner. Notice how much better Frank has hit, the offense has produced and the team has performed as a whole with Frank at 1B. (Gee, and they lose on Sunday 1-0 with Frank at DH.) That was a stupid move on Manuel's part and worthy of criticism. You can blame him for his handling of the bullpen (especially Marte), but name me a manager who never has been criticized for his handling of the bullpen, for leaving his starters out too long or not long enough.

Manuel has a collection of ill-fitting parts and yet he has managed to avoid last place amid a horrible team-wide hitting slump. The team was in the top five in hitting last year and is third to last in the AL this year. Sorry, folks, but the last time I checked the manager doesn't have to walk up to hit. Have you every considered that he tinkers so much because he has almost no speed, little defensive ability and almost no right-handed hitters with which to fill out a lineup card? Most players who could play a lick of defense up the middle with some speed have been traded, allowed to depart or released over the past several seasons (Durham, Simmons, Singleton, Cameron, Caruso, shall I go on?). Maybe these players aren't / weren't that great, either, but I bet they could hit .220 for a lot less money than Paul Konerko and probably could play better defense and/or lay down a bunt to manufacture some runs when needed than Valentin or PK. Manuel is trying to make lemonade out of the lemons he has been handed.

If you want a scapegoat, look no further than Konerko and Valentin, whose hitting isn't covering up for their fielding and whose fielding isn't covering up for their hitting. Blame KW for trading Ray Durham and for not addressing the glaring holes at CF and SS (but give him his props for Loaiza and Colon). Blame Crede, but be patient and realize that Robin Ventura went 0-for-40 something during his first full season with the Sox. Blame Reinsdorf, too, but for goodness sakes get off of Manuel's back. He is not the problem with this team.

Make Frank's return to 1B permanent, and combined with the improved summer weather and the laws of averages the Sox will hit better and improve their record. This is not the time to "blow it all up" and trade Colon and Loaiza for prospects, but rather sit tight with PK on the DL and Frank at 1B. When they get to August they will be able to tell with more certainty if it is time to move ill-fitting parts like Valentin, replaceable parts like Lee (who could be moved to DH with Borchard in LF instead), either for reinforcements or for parts to fill holes like CF and SS. If Konerko really is this terrible, then hide him on the DL and then the bench if he can't improve after a rehab stint on the DL.

If Manuel can't manage a balanced, good OBP lineup with speed, then I would be the first one to call for his head. But he hasn't been given that, and the right-handed two-toed sloths on this team haven't hit to their ability. They hit last year, but the Sox were wheeling out Todd Ritchie instead of Loaiza and Colon and guess what? The starting pitching sucked!

Wally Backman may one day prove to be a hall of fame manager, but for right now this whole situation smells like the Bears quarterback situation of the late 80s and early 90s. When Jim Harbaugh was starting, fans would be calling for Mike Tomczak to start. If Tomczak were starting, fans would scream for Harbaugh. Backman ought to be re-named "Backup" because he's like the second string quarterback, the one for whom the fans clamor when the team struggles, the knight it shining armor who will come to rescue us all and lead us to the promised land.

The old adage is "you can't fire 25 players," but you don't have to fire all 25, just one or two and demote one or two to the DL, the minors or the bench. How about thinking outside the box and RE-LOADING instead of taking the conventional approach of firing the manager and re-building with the prospects that other teams are willing to trade to you (not the ones they want to keep for themselves).

Gumshoe
06-16-2003, 02:41 PM
I understand this argument ... if you made it back in 2001. But this has been going on for 3 years and if you don't see it now you are blind. JM has personally blown AT LEAST 5 games this year. At least with his insistence on using Rick White and Tom Gordon, lack of use of Marte and his inability to get coaches to get through to players for the last 3 years. I blame far more on KW, but only because he hasn't canned Manuel after three disappointing seasons. Only in the last 3 weeks has he even tried to bunt and steal. We stole 11 bases over the first 40+ games. 11. Since then we have stolen about 11 more. When you don't score runs, it really shows you how good a manager is. And if you excuse that 4-2 SF game, then you are just an idiot. That was the last straw my friend. That should NEVER happen. For whatever reason, KW, players, etc. he can't get it done or keep any of HIS coaches. He needs to go NOW.

As a final point, would you have fired Kobe and Shaq as a laker exec? NO. You went out and got a guy who knew how to handle modern day egos/talent. And know what? In doing that, you just won yourself 3 Championships. I don't wanna hear this "it's the players" crap ... Manuel can't win close games. He never has. The SF game was the last straw.

Gumshoe

pudge
06-16-2003, 03:01 PM
Can the original poster of this thread just admit that he is KW in disguise?

Meixner007
06-16-2003, 03:06 PM
You make some valid points...but he needs to go.

You're right, the team can't hit. What happened to this "boot camp mentality" that we were gonna get at the beginning of the year. If so, it should have been seen that JM was in no position to run that.

Yes the defense up the middle isn't that good, but that's still not an excuse. JM should be on their ass to be taking practice every damn day. Yes poor defense does make it easy to question managers moves, but he has yet to consistenly make good moves. I have never seen so many "moves" come into question, let alone contradict conventional wisdom.

As for his managing of the bull pen...IT'S AWFUL. Case and point, last weeks game against the Giants when Barry goes deep of Colon. Who does JM have warming up...that's right, NOONE. *** is he thinking???? Or how about the game againts the dodgers where our best reliever (Marte) pitches fine, all be it to one guy, but then who comes in? Crash Gordon. That man should not be trusted with a game still in the balance. There is no excuse for a reliever to be on pace to LOOSE 10 games.

You mention the fact that the sox have avoided last place even though the whole team is in a hitting slump. All I ask is for you to look who's below us. That's not saying to much for JM.

The main problem I see with JM is the lack of fundamentals on this team. People say that the "manager doesn't play" so it's tough to blame him when the players don't perform. To this I say BULL*****. What can you blame a manager then for? What does he actually do. Fundamentals are the one thing that JM can get critisized for. What the hell did we do in spring training anymore. Do we hold practice before games anymore? These guys can't lay down a bunt, let alone run the bases. If JM had gotten on the back of these guys just a little, we could have skweeked out a win yesterday. It's just frustrating to watch us play awful every day, and then see JM say "um, gee, well you know, we didn't play like we wanted to, but we'll come back out tommorow and regroup." **** that. Where's the emotion that I and thousands of other fans show each day? Why so laid back when this team drastically needs a kick in the ass?

HURT35
06-16-2003, 03:20 PM
While he can't swing the bat, pitch the ball and all of the other cliches that get tossed around when a manager is in trouble, he CAN create scenarios whereby the team has the best chance of success. Mr. National League guy, Mr. "make the other team flinch" very rarely tries to force the hand of the defense. Yeah, Aaron Rowand made a horrible baserunning blunder at second base yesterday, but lets think of the scenario this way: Runner on second no outs, I have a team that has had no offense other than homeruns, can't string together hits, never seems to do the right thing on its own (ie, hit the ball to the right side to advance the runner), I am losing one to nothing in the fifth inning (I think), failed to score in similar situation last inning after sitting on my ass and doing nothing creative, I have my rookie catcher up (in the ninth spot) who while possessing great talent hasnt quite figured it all out yet and shouldnt be trusted to hit to the right side, do you:

A. Have the rookie, ninth place hitter attempt to bunt the man over to third with one out, where you could score without a hit and force the defense to make a play (they could throw it away), force the AAA pitcher that your facing to do something other than just stand on the mound and make your hitters look silly (break the rythem of the game)

B. Let the rookie, ninth place hitter swing away and hit a fly ball to left field and then bitch and moan about fundamentals of baserunning on a team that you have had control of for six years, because it can mask the fact that you are going thru the motions and collecting a paycheck

C. Just sit and review carpet swatches for the house you are building in California in between nodding off and lamenting that you don't first and second and nobody out so you could watch the batter hit into a 6-4-3 double play (Copyright, Paul Konerko)

If you answered B and/or C, welcome to the message board Mr. Manuel.

This scenario plays out all the time under this guy. It's ridiculous! Changing the line-up card daily and blowing out the pen whenever humanly possible is not the only thing a manager can do.

But he will see another fourth of July as Sox manager, shouldn't have even seen last years...

boog_alou
06-16-2003, 03:37 PM
You're right. JM shouldn't be fired. He should do the honorable thing and commit Hari-Kari (ritual suicide) for dishonoring himself, his family, his team, his city, and the game of baseball.

voodoochile
06-16-2003, 04:36 PM
Manuel should be fired for pitching Koch yesterday in a non-save situation when he had already pitched the previous two days.

If that doesn't tell you everything you need to know about Manuel's decision making, then nothing ever will.

jeremyb1
06-16-2003, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by HURT35

A. Have the rookie, ninth place hitter attempt to bunt the man over to third with one out, where you could score without a hit and force the defense to make a play (they could throw it away), force the AAA pitcher that your facing to do something other than just stand on the mound and make your hitters look silly (break the rythem of the game)

B. Let the rookie, ninth place hitter swing away and hit a fly ball to left field and then bitch and moan about fundamentals of baserunning on a team that you have had control of for six years, because it can mask the fact that you are going thru the motions and collecting a paycheck

C. Just sit and review carpet swatches for the house you are building in California in between nodding off and lamenting that you don't first and second and nobody out so you could watch the batter hit into a 6-4-3 double play (Copyright, Paul Konerko)

If you answered B and/or C, welcome to the message board Mr. Manuel.

This scenario plays out all the time under this guy. It's ridiculous! Changing the line-up card daily and blowing out the pen whenever humanly possible is not the only thing a manager can do.

But he will see another fourth of July as Sox manager, shouldn't have even seen last years...

see this is the problem with bunting in my opinion, how can you assume olivo will lay down a successful sacrifice. obviously bunting is more difficult than the average fan believes or we wouldn't fail to lay them down so often. bunting is a rather basic skill for a baseball player, even if manuel is a terrible teacher of fundamentals and that shows with our team, that can't explain why our guys struggle so much with laying the bunt down. a guy like rios who played in the nl for two different managers in the last two years before this season, can't be incappable of bunting simply because he's spent a few months playing for manuel.

some of it may be that we have the misfortune of having players that struggle with bunting on our team but i think the reality is most likely that laying a good bunt down against a pitcher throwing 90 miles an hour is not that easy. why you would assume that olivo has a better chance of laying down a good sac bunt than simply hitting a groundball to the right side or a fly ball is completely beyond me.

jeremyb1
06-16-2003, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Manuel should be fired for pitching Koch yesterday in a non-save situation when he had already pitched the previous two days.

If that doesn't tell you everything you need to know about Manuel's decision making, then nothing ever will.

ok, here's another complaint of mine. everyone here loves to be dramatic and use hyperbole so they always insist manuel should be fired for one decision. when one actually analyzes the decision everyone always insists, "no, we're not saying manuel should be fired for this thing, he should be fired for 3 years of constant mismanagement". which is it? clearly manuel shouldn't be fired for using koch one inning too many so i don't really understand the point of saying that.

TornLabrum
06-16-2003, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
ok, here's another complaint of mine. everyone here loves to be dramatic and use hyperbole so they always insist manuel should be fired for one decision. when one actually analyzes the decision everyone always insists, "no, we're not saying manuel should be fired for this thing, he should be fired for 3 years of constant mismanagement". which is it? clearly manuel shouldn't be fired for using koch one inning too many so i don't really understand the point of saying that.

And of course no one has cited any other reasons. It's quite simple, really. What we're looking at is a series of offenses, each one of which has a cumulative effect. We've been listing these reasons for at least three years.

CLR01
06-16-2003, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
As a final point, would you have fired Kobe and Shaq as a laker exec? NO. You went out and got a guy who knew how to handle modern day egos/talent. And know what? In doing that, you just won yourself 3 Championships. I don't wanna hear this "it's the players" crap ... Manuel can't win close games. He never has. The SF game was the last straw.

Gumshoe

While I am still on the fence with Manuel (beginning to fall toward dumping him), comparing him and the sox to Jackson, Kobe, Shaq and the lakers is ridiculous. Its not even close to being the same situation. The Sox problem is not getting the star players to co-exist (well not that i know of, could be wrong) its getting the rookies and everyone else to play at or above their skill level. The players that should be getting dumped are not MLB superstars.

voodoochile
06-16-2003, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
ok, here's another complaint of mine. everyone here loves to be dramatic and use hyperbole so they always insist manuel should be fired for one decision. when one actually analyzes the decision everyone always insists, "no, we're not saying manuel should be fired for this thing, he should be fired for 3 years of constant mismanagement". which is it? clearly manuel shouldn't be fired for using koch one inning too many so i don't really understand the point of saying that.

It isn't the moment, it is what that moment reveals about his psyche. He shows little belief in the players he has, refusing to let them do the job they were signed to do. His constant tinkering, the misuse of the bullpen. This was one of the most glaring examples of all of these problems in one perfect Jerry Manuel Moment. So, no if it were the first time it had ever happened, and there were none of the other problems, then he wouldn't deserve to be fired, but all of those problems do exist and Jerry continues to make the same dumbass mistakes he has made for the last 3 years - of which (as I said) this was a perfect example.

If Tom Gordon blew the save tonight, then last night's decision might have cost the Sox another win tonight. Jerry needs to go...

TornLabrum
06-17-2003, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
It isn't the moment, it is what that moment reveals about his psyche. He shows little belief in the players he has, refusing to let them do the job they were signed to do. His constant tinkering, the misuse of the bullpen. This was one of the most glaring examples of all of these problems in one perfect Jerry Manuel Moment. So, no if it were the first time it had ever happened, and there were none of the other problems, then he wouldn't deserve to be fired, but all of those problems do exist and Jerry continues to make the same dumbass mistakes he has made for the last 3 years - of which (as I said) this was a perfect example.

If Tom Gordon blew the save tonight, then last night's decision might have cost the Sox another win tonight. Jerry needs to go...

Dave Wills and Bill Melton made note of the fact more than once that Koch was unavailable last night. The only thing they didn't mention was that Manuel had burned him in a non-save situation the previous day.

WhiteSoxWinner
06-17-2003, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by xil357
Most players who could play a lick of defense up the middle with some speed have been traded, allowed to depart or released over the past several seasons (Durham, Simmons, Singleton, Cameron, Caruso, shall I go on?). Maybe these players aren't / weren't that great, either, but I bet they could hit .220 for a lot less money than Paul Konerko and probably could play better defense and/or lay down a bunt to manufacture some runs when needed than Valentin or PK.

I agree that all those guys could play defense, but all of them, except Simmons who never got a shot here due to freak injuries, also had one other trait in common. They would hit a homerun, and then, for next three weeks, go on swing for the fences every at bat. That killed their speed advantage because they weren't on base often enough to use their speed. It also nullified any manufacturing of runs. JM should have taken care of that right away, but instead, Sleepy just let them play and didn't do anything to correct the problem.

Case in point, Caruso was nicknamed Slappy the Inning Maker by Ventura because he would get all these contact hits and then use his speed. However, Caruso bought into the whole "chicks dig the long ball," swung for the fences, and lost his place on the team.

LASOXFAN
06-17-2003, 01:17 PM
I live in LA and last weekend met someone who has a connection to Sox management but who shall remain anonymous. After some prodding he admitted that it's well known in the organization that the players no longer respect Jerry Manuel but that he's too nice of a guy for anyone to speak out against. Let's face it: anyone who enters the playoffs by saying that "we're ahead of schedule and our expectations are low" shouldn't be managing in professional sports. Soscia didn't say that last year nor did Gardenhire. But JM did in 2000, and I for one can't forgive him for it.

voodoochile
06-17-2003, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
I live in LA and last weekend met someone who has a connection to Sox management but who shall remain anonymous. After some prodding he admitted that it's well known in the organization that the players no longer respect Jerry Manuel but that he's too nice of a guy for anyone to speak out against. Let's face it: anyone who enters the playoffs by saying that "we're ahead of schedule and our expectations are low" shouldn't be managing in professional sports. Soscia didn't say that last year nor did Gardenhire. But JM did in 2000, and I for one can't forgive him for it.

Hey, welcome aboard! :D:

Your information comes as no shock to anyone who watches this team play on a regular basis.

oldcomiskey
06-17-2003, 04:38 PM
take a guy like Brian Daubach for instance and this is what irritates me about Manuel----the guy dont play but once a week after being used to being out there every day.....He should be playing 3 or 4 games a week----and I wouldve already traded Konerko and Lee and a pitcher to get Sidney Ponson and Carl Everett, or at least a damn centerfielder