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Viva Magglio
06-15-2003, 08:16 PM
He's hitting below the Mendoza line. He can't field. He can't bunt. He can't run the bases right. I say we release Rowand.

whitesoxwilkes
06-15-2003, 08:30 PM
I'm with you Viva. I'd rather have Borchard out there struggling, since he still has some upside, than Rowand, who has proven over the past 2 years that he just can't cut it in the leagues. If we do cut Rowand, I hope he leaves some heart and hustle behind..the kid has an A-1 work ethic, but only AAA skills as a ballplayer.

Randar68
06-15-2003, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
He's hitting below the Mendoza line. He can't field. He can't bunt. He can't run the bases right. I say we release Rowand.

Finally people are coming around.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-15-2003, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Finally people are coming around.

You know, he's not even a good fourth outfielder, his defense is so bad. I would rather have a decent defensive replacement like Brian Simmons on the bench to rest my regulars and play late-inning defense than a guy like Rowand who is just a mess whatever he tries to do.

Let's face it. We don't have a centerfielder. Borchard isn't ready, we traded Lofton, and we gave up (rightfully so) on Singleton.

:KW
"I wonder if Mike Caruso could play CF?"

:jerry
"Kenny, I have somebody else in mind."

:versatile
"That stint in LF was just my warm up act!"

Gumshoe
06-15-2003, 08:53 PM
I'm not sure where you guys get the idea that he can't play CF well. He is by far the best defensively that we have. And we shouldn't have to worry about him hitting ... if other guys were doing the job well, it'd be fine. Rios is the guy you wanna cut. He brings nothing to the team, and isn't good defensively. Another terrible pickup by KW.

Rowand has hit a bit since being recalled. When you don't play everyday, how do you hit? Same thing goes for Konerko. I don't know whether to root for us this year or hope the "bad luck" continues so JR/KW will realize that they both suck and fire themselves, sell the team, ETC. When are these guys going to get it? They don't have what it takes to assemble an organization. They are chicken SH*T

Gumshoe

Gumshoe
06-15-2003, 08:55 PM
Simmons ... now that is a good call. He could definitely play some D. Where is he? Let's sign him up. If not for 2 freak injuries he was the 2000 starter. Man, he could probably bunt too.

The problems are not Rowand or the players. It's who manages them (general and on field). Manuel can't win close games, he doesn't know how to get his guys to bunt and he never could handle the bullpen worth a crap.

Daver
06-15-2003, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
I'm not sure where you guys get the idea that he can't play CF well. He is by far the best defensively that we have.

Have you been watching the same games the rest of us have been watching for two years?

Aaron Rowand is a fourth outfielder at best.


BTW,welcome aboard. :redneck

WhiteSoxWinner
06-15-2003, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Simmons ... now that is a good call. He could definitely play some D. Where is he? Let's sign him up. If not for 2 freak injuries he was the 2000 starter. Man, he could probably bunt too.


He is with the Giants Triple-A squad. At least he was last month last time this question was asked.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-15-2003, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Simmons ... now that is a good call. He could definitely play some D. Where is he? Let's sign him up. If not for 2 freak injuries he was the 2000 starter. Man, he could probably bunt too.

Last I heard, Simmons was out of baseball. I think Jeff Abbott is looking for work, too.

Given a choice, I would take Simmons. He had the better glove and might make a good #4 outfielder after Borchard takes the step up to the Show.

captain54
06-15-2003, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
He can't run the bases right. I say we release Rowand.

that baserunning blunder he pulled Sunday should have been reason enough to send him back down....he should have been a lot closer to the bag, and not half way between the frikkin bases....if he would have read the play right he would have seen that the centerfielder, was close enough to the ball to make a play, that it would have been a fluke if he would have missed it...on a borderline play like that, why leave yourself high and dry half way between second and third...???

this is something that my son's little league team understood, when he played years ago...

there is obviously no accountablity anywhere in that clubhouse...
I picture Ghandi patting him on the head and saying, "don't worry son, you'll do better next time"....

these guys are highly paid major league baseball players....lets cut the bullcrap...

RKMeibalane
06-15-2003, 09:45 PM
Aaron Rowand is fortunate that I am not the manager of the Chicago White Sox. Otherwise, he would on a plane to Charlotte as we speak. The Sox hit two balls hard the entire game. One was Frank's drive to warning track in the eighth. The other was the ball hit by Olivo, where Rowand committed one of the biggest baserunning blunders I've ever seen.

What the hell is wrong with this team? They can't field, they can't run the bases, and they can't score runs unless somebody hits a ball into the bleachers. This is absolutely pathetic. The worst part is that Jerry Manuel just sits in the dugout sleeping for most of the game. Every once in a while, he comes charging out of the dugout in vain attempt to show some emotion. Rowand should have been pulled for his mistake. I've seen high school players benched indefintely for much less. How did Manuel respond to the situation. He did nothing. Rowand was not punished at all. In fact, Jerry probably took him to Baskin Robbins after the game to reward him for his hustle .

The Chicago White Sox are a professional baseball team. This is not Little League. If guys don't have a firm understanding of the fundamentals by now, then they don't deserve to play in the Majors. The thing is, there are several players on the twenty five man roster who don't understand fundamentals. That leaves the Sox with only a small group of people who know what they're doing out there.

CLR01
06-15-2003, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge

Let's face it. We don't have a centerfielder. Borchard isn't ready, we traded Lofton, and we gave up (rightfully so) on Singleton.



Hey keep that "we" to yourself.

:D:

ShoelessFred
06-15-2003, 10:44 PM
i wouldn't mind having Gary Matthews Jr.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-15-2003, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by CLR01
Hey keep that "we" to yourself.

:D:

It's a mystery to me why I keep wanting to jump on board this train wreck of a franchise. I should at least have the sense to only use "we" after they win.

:)

jeremyb1
06-15-2003, 11:13 PM
what's lost in this thread is that rowand was our only player with two hits today. he scorched the ball three times and has hit well since his recall. so...he can hit as well or better than any of our other centerfield options and he can field better than any of our other options in center. i don't buy this "haven't you been watching the games argument. i have been watching the games. rowand has good speed in center and he gets good reads on the balls. people accuse him of misplaying balls all the time but he consistently took better routes to the ball than lofton a former gold glove center fielder did last season and i don't know where all these supposed miscues are coming from with the exception of the ball he ran in on in the first game of the san fran series.

his base running error today was terrible but its nothing half the other players on the roster haven't done in the past season and a half. you work with the guy if he's your best option you don't release him. where does the idea of releasing rowand come from anyways?! when he still has minor league options that suggestion is completely indefensible. its clearly just a way to try to sound tough and vent your anger but if you're not going to discuss his future seriously, why bring it up at all.

34 Inch Stick
06-16-2003, 09:06 AM
All "best centerfielder we have" arguments are damning him with faint praise. Obviously he will have to do for now. Once management comes to the realization that we are out of it, Borchard should be recalled and played in center every day.

Until then play Rowand and hope he stays hot (Hangar is right he is hot at the plate right now). I remember the Rockies were very interested in him last year. Maybe they would be interested again.

Gumshoe
06-16-2003, 11:19 AM
finally someone has it right. Jeremy's post is totally right on. He got hits, he is WAY better defensively than the others. I watch the games. Jeremy, the guys before were trying to tell me otherwise. Thanks for that post.

Those same guys probably would tell me that Mark Johnson wasn't good defensively either. So what if he couldn't hit that well? At least he was a lefty that could bunt and PLAY D. We need guys like that. If you also thought MJ wasn't a good catcher, we must be watching different games ...

Gumshoe

holla HF area

PaleHoseGeorge
06-16-2003, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
finally someone has it right. Jeremy's post is totally right on. He got hits, he is WAY better defensively than the others. I watch the games. Jeremy, the guys before were trying to tell me otherwise. Thanks for that post.

Those same guys probably would tell me that Mark Johnson wasn't good defensively either. So what if he couldn't hit that well? At least he was a lefty that could bunt and PLAY D. We need guys like that. If you also thought MJ wasn't a good catcher, we must be watching different games ...

Gumshoe

holla HF area

The next good jump Aaron Rowand gets on a fly ball will be his first. His teammates didn't nickname him "Robocop" for his stellar technique either. His board nickname, "Crash", comes as a direct result of Rowand having no clue where he is on the field. That's lousy defensive play, not good.

As a centerfielder, Aaron Rowand makes a great corner outfielder--if only he wasn't a complete waste with the bat, which of course is the measure of your true worth in those positions. They moved him from the corners specifically because he was such a waste with the bat. His baserunning and bunting technique are atrocious, so why are we arguing?

Rowand is the best centerfielder on the Sox because Kenny Williams was stupid enough to trade Ray Durham to the A's for a washed up AAA pitcher rather than something useful, namely Brian Simmons. Now we're screwed until Harris gets healthy (another weak substitute CFer) and Borchard steps up.

delben91
06-16-2003, 11:57 AM
A name I never hear mentioned is Cliff Brumbaugh (sp?). Last I checked, granted, it was a few weeks ago, he was hitting over .300 in AAA, and he was supposedly very solid with the glove in spring training. I haven't delved into his stats, so it could be an exceptionally hollow .300, but is he at least worth a shot as a stopgap?

Gumshoe
06-16-2003, 12:03 PM
As I've said before, i'm all about Brian Simmons. Obviously, KW can't do anything right.

I still disagree on Rowand though. He's a good defensive CF. Not GREAT but very solid. If you even mention putting Willie Harris in there (a 2nd basemen!) I just don't understand your baseball analysis. Manuel will put him in there, though, I bet --- and the first thing I'll do (after puking) is go to the dugout and incessantly yell at JM. I just can't believe some of the stuff he pulls. Borchard actually looked OK to me. What's interesting is, right after manuel said, "Even though he Ks a lot right now, it seems like he is always in the middle of a rally for us. I like the way he sparks us, etc. ..." THEN HE GOT SENT DOWN. Immediately.

Nothing makes sense anymore. We can win with Rowand in CF. We can't with WHarris, or Rios there. I have a feeling we can win with Backman as a manager, although I'm not convinced that anyone can manage a team under this guy KW...

God it's painful -- something new every day

Gumshoe

Randar68
06-16-2003, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
what's lost in this thread is that rowand was our only player with two hits today. he scorched the ball three times and has hit well since his recall. so...he can hit as well or better than any of our other centerfield options and he can field better than any of our other options in center. i don't buy this "haven't you been watching the games argument. i have been watching the games. rowand has good speed in center and he gets good reads on the balls. people accuse him of misplaying balls all the time but he consistently took better routes to the ball than lofton a former gold glove center fielder did last season and i don't know where all these supposed miscues are coming from with the exception of the ball he ran in on in the first game of the san fran series.

his base running error today was terrible but its nothing half the other players on the roster haven't done in the past season and a half. you work with the guy if he's your best option you don't release him. where does the idea of releasing rowand come from anyways?! when he still has minor league options that suggestion is completely indefensible. its clearly just a way to try to sound tough and vent your anger but if you're not going to discuss his future seriously, why bring it up at all.

WORST POST EVER.

Jeremy, you continue to set the bar as far as worthless posts. If you have been watching the games and don't think Rowand is a piss-poor defensive player, than you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Name me one instance of him running to a spot, stopping, and waiting for the ball. He chases the ball on every play and goes the wrong way (in/back) on half the balls hit at him. He can't bunt, can't hit for average (despite this astounding evidence of having 1 2-hit game on the season), doesn't walk, rivals Josh Paul for worst baserunning instincts.

Plainly put, he tries hard, but at this level, it isn't enough. This isn't Little League where everyone gets to play.

Rowand is not a major league player. End of story. You have yet to give any evidence he is anything but a AAAA player in your months of "In defense of Aaron Rowand" dissertations.

If you had any clue how to scout a player or judge his abilities to play in the major leagues, you'd accept it. INstead, you continue this charade of "his base running error today was terrible but..."

Make excuses, seems to be what you are best at.

Randar68
06-16-2003, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Nothing makes sense anymore. We can win with Rowand in CF. We can't with WHarris, or Rios there. I have a feeling we can win with Backman as a manager, although I'm not convinced that anyone can manage a team under this guy KW...


Why can't we win with Harris in Center? As sad as it is, he is a better defensive player out there than Rowand. He actually breaks on the ball and has legit speed. He can steal bases and lay down bunts. If you aren't going to hit .250+ (like Harris or Rowand), at least do some fundamental things correctly. Harris actually gets his body and feet in position to make a throw from center, unlike Rowand.

Dadawg_77
06-16-2003, 12:23 PM
Rowand isn't bad hitter, he is horrible at the plate. He best season was his rookie year with a .385 OBP and .431 Slg. Which appears to be a lucky fluke, as last year with major playing time he got on base at a .298 clip and .257 slg which is way below replacement level. This year he is at .311 with a .384 slg. This guy can't hit and at best is a average defensive CF. He is at best a 25 man on your AAA club and at making only 320,000 wouldn't be that costly to cut him lose.

maurice
06-16-2003, 12:58 PM
Rowand is EASILY the best defensive OF who has played for the Sox this season. That's hardly praiseworthy, but anyone contesting this point has an extremely warped view of what Harris, LTP, Lee, Rios, Daubach, and Ordonez have done defensively this season. Harris is a rag-arm, AAAA player who has never even FLASHED the ability to hit major league pitching. LTP should become a good defensive corner OF, but he was brutal in his short stint in CF and currently is playing LF for Charlotte. Crash has a well-above-average arm (far stronger than Harris' but weaker than LTP's cannon), much better positioning to make throws than LTP, and a history of making good throws from CF at the major league level (including a good throw that was cut off last night and 11 outfield assists in only 125 career starts). Finally, Crash is fielding 1.000, and his .962 ZR is tops among players with more than 50 innings in CF.

I posted the following in the game-day thread:

The things Crash did poorly yesterday (bunting and baserunning) are on par with 95% of his teammates. It's perfectly reasonable to get upset, but there's no sense singling him out in a game where he had twice as many hits as anyone else. How about Graffy (0-for-4, 2 SOs, 3 LOB, no speed, can't bunt) or the ever-crappy Pauly K (3 LOB, .125 AVE and 0 extra-base hits since 6/1, no speed, can't bunt)? JM's only conceivable alternative at this point is Rios (.225 AVE/.255 OBP, .158/.200 since 6/1, no speed, okay bunter).

Crash has looked very good at the plate since being recalled. Barring a major trade, he should be the starting CF for the rest of the season. He may be only 75% of a good CF, but that's a heck of a lot better than anyone else on the 25-man roster.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-16-2003, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Rowand is EASILY the best defensive OF who has played for the Sox this season. That's hardly praiseworthy, but anyone contesting this point has an extremely warped view of what Harris, LTP, Lee, Rios, Daubach, and Ordonez have done defensively this season. Harris is a rag-arm, AAAA player who has never even FLASHED the ability to hit major league pitching. LTP should become a good defensive corner OF, but he was brutal in his short stint in CF and currently is playing LF for Charlotte. Crash has a well-above-average arm (far stronger than Harris' but weaker than LTP's cannon), much better positioning to make throws than LTP, and a history of making good throws from CF at the major league level (including a good throw that was cut off last night and 11 outfield assists in only 125 career starts).

I posted the following in the game-day thread:

The things Crash did poorly yesterday (bunting and baserunning) are on par with 95% of his teammates. It's perfectly reasonable to get upset, but there's no sense singling him out in a game where he had twice as many hits as anyone else. How about Graffy (0-for-4, 2 SOs, 3 LOB, no speed, can't bunt) or the ever-crappy Pauly K (3 LOB, .125 AVE and 0 extra-base hits since 6/1, no speed, can't bunt)? JM's only conceivable alternative at this point is Rios (.225 AVE/.255 OBP, .158/.200 since 6/1, no speed, okay bunter).

Crash has looked very good at the plate since being recalled. Barring a major trade, he should be the starting CF for the rest of the season. He may be only 75% of a good CF, but that's a heck of a lot better than anyone else on the 25-man roster.

If the dog hadn't stopped to take a ****, he would have caught a rabbit.

E-X-C-U-S-E-S.

This ballclub sucks, and Aaron Rowand is Exhibit A for why they will never get good. We all know (I hope?) that he isn't a major league ballplayer, but the Sox will run him out there and make do. :(:

Gumshoe
06-16-2003, 01:49 PM
Maurice, you are flat out right. We won with Singleton in center and I'm sure we could win with Rowand there. As always, the team is dealing with mentality problems. And that is the result of a GM and manager who just don't have any clue of what they are doing. Clearly our team has the talent. We should quit nitpicking and just assign everything to where the blame should be: KW and JM.

I actually hope very much that we trade Koch. It seems like he averages 2 walks per save appearance. God, did we get duped in the Foulke deal. We trade a guy that's unhittable for a heart attack man. Marte would be way better of a closer than Koch anyway, and we save money. Ship him out.

Gummy

Randar68
06-16-2003, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Maurice, you are flat out right. We won with Singleton in center and I'm sure we could win with Rowand there.

Problem with this arguement. Singleton was light-years better in CF and could hit a little. Rowand is nothing close to Slow-Swingleton, and that is sad. What is worse is people trying to defend him.

captain54
06-16-2003, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Maurice, you are flat out right. We won with Singleton in center and I'm sure we could win with Rowand there.

Clearly our team has the talent. Gummy


Hey Gummy, what exactly did we win with Singleton in center??

the Sox had a lights out first half of 2000, played mediocre in the second half, and went three and out in the playoffs....

While it may be clear to you this team has the talent, I think the majority of us would disagree.....

A player may flash signs of talent, but unless he brings it to the ballpark on a regular basis, its useless...

Aaron Rowand has a spot on this roster because he's got a bargain basement price tag, and would probably never get a chance to scorch Reinsdorf in arbitration, two very, very important qualifications to be a member of the Chicago White Sox....

Randar68
06-16-2003, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Crash has a well-above-average arm (far stronger than Harris' but weaker than LTP's cannon), much better positioning to make throws than LTP, and a history of making good throws from CF at the major league level (including a good throw that was cut off last night and 11 outfield assists in only 125 career starts). Finally, Crash is fielding 1.000, and his .962 ZR is tops among players with more than 50 innings in CF.


This illustrates exactly why fielding statistics are worthless. You can't quantify jumps on balls and not being able to get the ball to the right place at the right time.

You won't be able to name me a single time when Rowand got his body and feet in the proper position to throw the ball. He gets run on because nobody thinks (and they are right) he can throw. He can't. He has a strong arm, but because of his horrendous footwork, rarely puts it on/near target.

How many times a week does he have to take a first-step in on a ball that is 25 feet over his head for people to stop calling him a good defensive outfielder? The first thing they teach you in the OF is to always take your first step back if you are unsure. It is easier to come in than to turn and go back.


Comparing him to corner outfielders Lee and Maggs is a cop-out. I am not hailing Rios or LTP as a big improvement in the field (although Joe can actually throw a ball where he intends). And I am also not saying that Harris is a quality major league hitter.

But the arguement is this:

Rowand is not a major league CF or an every day major league hitter.

End of story, close the book, the horse is dead.

If you take the time to watch him play and analyze his abilities in game situations, he does not deserve a spot on a 25-man roster anywhere in the big leagues.

Singleton was much better and a lot of these same people who are defending Crash were the same ones happy to see him leave. It doesn't matter how many hits a game Rowand gets if he can't lay down a bunt when called upon to do so, can't tag up, etc.

Everyone needs effort players on their team, but those guys have to do the little things to help their team win. That is the anti-Rowand.

*****, this is old. Everytime he gets a hit or runs into a wall, the 5 or 6 FOC come out of the woodwork to tout his prowess. Get a life.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-16-2003, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Problem with this arguement. Singleton was light-years better in CF and could hit a little. Rowand is nothing close to Slow-Swingleton, and that is sad. What is worse is people trying to defend him.

Besides what you note, we traded Singleton to Baltimore (for Harris) because the Sox were on the verge of announcing the signing of our new centerfielder, free agent Kenny Lofton. Lofton was an obvious upgrade to Swingleton who would no longer get playing time. However, now they are both gone (due to genius trades by KW) and Rowand gets the job by default because Harris is on the DL. And the half-baked excuses keep coming...

I would laugh if it didn't hurt so much. :(:

maurice
06-16-2003, 04:02 PM
It's true that we've been down this road a hundred times. I chime in only to remind the cut/bench/demote-Rowand crowd that (notwithstanding their subjective, emotional responses) we have no better replacement at this time. Nobody has identified a better defensive OF on this roster. That's because we don't have one. KW handed JM a roster without a good CF (or SS for that matter).

Someone on this roster needs to start in CF. My argument is that JM should start his best defensive OF (Rowand). I can't stand JM, but criticizing him because the roster does not contain a good CF is patently unfair. Whether KW should trade for a CF, and whether JM should start Rowand in the meanwhile are two separate issues.

Whether Rowand is an objectively good defensive CF is a RELATIVE question. Relative to the Sox roster, he's the best (which is not a compliment). Relative to the league, he's probably slightly above-average (which also is not a compliment). Until we get someone better, he should start.

Originally posted by Randar68
You can't quantify jumps on balls and not being able to get the ball to the right place at the right time.

Right, but the closest thing we have is range factor and OF assists. You also can't quantify serious misplays, but the closest thing we have is fielding percentage. All three stats significantly favor Rowand. Nobody has offered any objective evidence that there has been a better defensive OF on the roster this season. Singleton is gone. I'd rather have him in CF than Harris or Rowand, but that's really not at issue. Singleton is not a top notch major league CF either.

Again, it's all relative. Rowand's footwork is better than Borchard's. Rowand's arm strength is better than Harris'. Rowand's overall defensive ability is better than Borchard, Harris, Rios, and every other OF on the roster. The only one even close is Borchard, but he's seriously overmatched at the plate, and I doubt that he'll ever be a good defensive CF. Someone on the roster needs to play CF. The best choice right now is Rowand (again, not a compliment).

No one disagrees that KW should explore trades for a good CF to replace Rowand. But until and unless KW gets someone better, Rowand is the only thing we've got. Whether he's good or bad with respect to some Platonic ideal is irrelevant. It'll be a long wait for Webster or Anderson.

If you take the time to watch him play and analyze his abilities in game situations, he does not deserve a spot on a 25-man roster anywhere in the big leagues.

BS. "Watch him play" is a response given by a troll when the objective evidence does not support his argument. You're better than that. It's extremely unlikely that you've seen more of the Sox CFs this year than I (and many other posters here) have. My seats are in right-center, and I obviously have this issue in the front of my mind as the game progresses. I've also seen close up what the opposing teams have sent out to CF. For the most part, it's not very pretty. Maybe if you watched more live major league games, you'd see that calling someone a slightly above-average defensive CF in the year 2003 is not a compliment.

Randar68
06-16-2003, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Relative to the league, he's probably slightly above-average

This is a rediculous comment. Have you watched other teams this year? How often do you see CF's running around and taking breaks on balls the opposite of where they are ending up on a regular basis?

Rowand is not a significantly better option at the plate than anyone else currently manning the position in AAA or on the major league roster, so his lack of instincts in the field are another strike against him. His baserunning blunders are also inexcuseable. If you are going to be a mediocre role player, do the little things, and do them well. At least Harris has some use on the basepaths, and I don't think you can say he's had enough MLB at-bats to say he is worse than Rowand. Don't make me bring up bunting.


Originally posted by maurice
Rowand's footwork is better than Borchard's. Rowand's arm strength is better than Harris'. Rowand's overall defensive ability is better than Borchard, Harris, Rios, and every other OF on the roster. The only one even close is Borchard, but he's seriously overmatched at the plate, and I doubt that he'll ever be a good defensive CF.


I can not name you one player in the Major Leagues or minors that has worse footwork in center field than Rowand. What games have you watched? It doesn't matter how strong an arm you have if you can't put it on target. I can't count Rowand's throws to home that have ended up halfway up either line. Borchard was seriously overmatched at the plate? Yes. Was it any worse than Rowand? No Way. Is Borchard going to improve? Yes. Is Rowand? No. Why is he playeing again?


Originally posted by maurice
BS. "Watch him play" is a response given by a troll when the objective evidence does not support his argument.

No, a troll says "Watch Him Play" and doesn't back it up. I've cited his poor footwork, terrible reads on balls, not being able to run to a spot and set up, his terrible control on his throws, and his inability to do anything fundamental correctly. These are all things you can only measure by "Watching Him Play". There is no better measure of a defensive player than "Watching them play" and comparing their habits and tendancies to successful and proven ones. You can't know if a person has good footwork unless you carefully analyze their setups, stances and the way they prepare to get in position.

I'm sorry for you if you think there is some stat-head way to measure defensive prowess, especially in CF, but there isn't. The only way to do so is to "Watch Them Play"


Originally posted by maurice
Maybe if you watched more live major league games, you'd see that calling someone a slightly above-average defensive CF in the year 2003 is not a compliment.

I thought "Watch them play" was a troll-ish cop-out...

Give me a break. Rowand does not deserve a spot on a major league roster. Period. That is the point. Not that JM should stop playing if he was the last man on earth, it's that he needs to be replaced, ASAP, and IMO, as sad as it is, Harris is the better option. Rowand was a below-average left-fielder in AA, and I saw him play several games in Birmingham. He's the same clueless fielder now that he was then.

jeremyb1
06-16-2003, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
WORST POST EVER.

Jeremy, you continue to set the bar as far as worthless posts. If you have been watching the games and don't think Rowand is a piss-poor defensive player, than you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Name me one instance of him running to a spot, stopping, and waiting for the ball. He chases the ball on every play and goes the wrong way (in/back) on half the balls hit at him. He can't bunt, can't hit for average (despite this astounding evidence of having 1 2-hit game on the season), doesn't walk, rivals Josh Paul for worst baserunning instincts.

Plainly put, he tries hard, but at this level, it isn't enough. This isn't Little League where everyone gets to play.

Rowand is not a major league player. End of story. You have yet to give any evidence he is anything but a AAAA player in your months of "In defense of Aaron Rowand" dissertations.

If you had any clue how to scout a player or judge his abilities to play in the major leagues, you'd accept it. INstead, you continue this charade of "his base running error today was terrible but..."

Make excuses, seems to be what you are best at.

i'm glad we're staying on task. lets see all the arguments we have about why rowand is a bad option for us in centerfield right now, we have than i make worthless posts, that i make too many excuses, that i have no clue what i'm talking about, and that i have no ability to judge talent. oh, wait, those are all personal attacks on me completely unrelated to aaron rowand. how about this, if you want to start a thread about why i'm a bad poster, go to the other forum and have a ball but i fail to see what it has to due with my thought out reasons to say aaron rowand is our best option in centerfield at the moment. if you have a personal problem with me so be it but lets either talk about the white sox or not.

first of all, lets discuss defense once more. as i previously stated my opinion is that rowand has sufficient foot speed to play center field, he takes direct routes to the ball resulting in solid range in center (despite what you think about how well positioned he is to catch the ball), and he has above average arm strength even if his throws are occasionally off line.

as for the "name an instance" game, aaron rowand fielding chart where i mark down each of his plays in the field. i don't see how you expect someone to remember specific instances in which rowand did not screw up. he's been in AAA for a month and has played only sparingly since being recalled. people don't tend to remember unspectacular plays simply because he didn't make a mistake. i can honestly say i don't have any kind of impression or rowand running in circles in center field and taking poor routes to the ball so that he has to run to catch balls 15 feet away. while fielding stats can be somewhat flawed, rowands range factor in center playing with the same outfield and behind the same pitchers as our other recent options at centerfielder is 2.70 this season (roughly 3 in the two previous seasons) compared to 2.17 for borchard, and 2.29 for rios.

as for your atrocious claim that rowand is called "crash" and "robocop" because he's a bad fielder, i have no clue what you're talking about. those nicknames are both clearly the result of his tendency to crach into walls making catches as has been thoroughly reported throughout the media.

as far as rowand's hitting, he received regular playing time twice in his career prior to this season. in '01 he put up an .816 ops and in the second half of last season when he posted a .750 ops. those aren't mind blowing numbers but by comparison darrin erstad posted a .702 ops last season. even with his poor performance as a part timer in the first half of last season and coming off his injury this season, his career ops is .695 which again while it isn't great could be much worse (crede's is .602 for this season).

Randar68
06-16-2003, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
we have than i make worthless posts, that i make too many excuses, that i have no clue what i'm talking about, and that i have no ability to judge talent.

Sorry, but it's the only way to shut you up about your Aaron Rowand love-fest. You don't seem to understand logic and reason.

jeremyb1
06-16-2003, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Sorry, but it's the only way to shut you up about your Aaron Rowand love-fest. You don't seem to understand logic and reason.

haha. ok...clearly if that was your intent it didn't work. if you want to talk about logic i fail to see how talking about the quality of my posts is in anyway related to rowand.

Daver
06-16-2003, 10:57 PM
Aaron Rowand is not worthy of being on an MLB roster,you can base it on stats,or you can base it on talent,the result is the same,he is a AAAA player that would make a servicable fourth outfielder on a good team.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/daver/deadhorse.gif

PaleHoseGeorge
06-16-2003, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by daver
Aaron Rowand is not worthy of being on an MLB roster,you can base it on stats,or you can base it on talent,the result is the same,he is a AAAA player that would make a servicable fourth outfielder on a good team.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/daver/deadhorse.gif

He is nothing if not relentless, is he?

:)

maurice
06-17-2003, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
How often do you see CF's running around and taking breaks on balls the opposite of where they are ending up on a regular basis?

Regularly. It's the rule, not the exception. The worst part is when ESPN calls a badly misplayed ball a "Web Gem."

Rowand is not a significantly better option at the plate than anyone else currently manning the position in AAA or on the major league roster

I'm not trying to prove that he's "significantly better"; you're trying to prove that he's significantly worse than the other candidates, particularly Harris. The data do not support your argument. Y'all can cry "cut Rowand" 'til your blue. It doesn't change the fact that we have no better option.

At least Harris has some use on the basepaths, and I don't think you can say he's had enough MLB at-bats to say he is worse than Rowand.

Harris is useful on the basepaths only as a pinch runner. I'd be shocked if he manages a .300 career OBP. BTW, the lack of evidence favoring Harris is a problem for YOUR argument that Harris is a better option in CF. We'll find out, since JM looks like he's going to give Harris plenty of time in CF from here on out.

No, a troll says "Watch Him Play" and doesn't back it up.

. . . with objective evidence. Your reliance on your subjective opinion does not disprove contrary opinions. Your excessively negative emotional responses indicate a distorting bias not present in your evaluation of other players.

I thought "Watch them play" was a troll-ish cop-out...

I'm glad you finally agree with me. You'll note that the only time I used it, it was in teal.

Randar68
06-17-2003, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by maurice
I'm not trying to prove that he's "significantly better"; you're trying to prove that he's significantly worse than the other candidates, particularly Harris. The data do not support your argument. Y'all can cry "cut Rowand" 'til your blue. It doesn't change the fact that we have no better option.

No, what I'm trying to prove is that Rowand is not a major league quality player. Other players have no bearing on that.



Originally posted by maurice
Harris is useful on the basepaths only as a pinch runner. I'd be shocked if he manages a .300 career OBP. BTW, the lack of evidence favoring Harris is a problem for YOUR argument that Harris is a better option in CF. We'll find out, since JM looks like he's going to give Harris plenty of time in CF from here on out.

Harris has better numbers in AA and AAA in terms of OBP and average than Aaron Rowand did. He has only had limited at-bats in the majors. That, son, is evidence.



Originally posted by maurice
. . . with objective evidence. Your reliance on your subjective opinion does not disprove contrary opinions. Your excessively negative emotional responses indicate a distorting bias not present in your evaluation of other players.


You are clueless. That is what a majority of scouting is, a subjective opinion.

Gumshoe
06-17-2003, 02:50 PM
but Rangar, you are on the losing end of this argument. There is absolutely nothing that would tell a neutral thinker that Willie Harris or anyone else is a better option than Aaron. NONE. Maurice's whole point is practical, and from my point of view, yours isn't. Furthermore, don't even bring up AAA stats, because I remember a few years ago when Rowand tore that up too. Obviously, we know minor league stats mean JACK in the bigs.

Maurice was right again in pointing out that Harris will get ample time to prove something. That scares me. While I was extremely doubtful of putting him in last night, I was pleasantly surprised, but I think the majority opinion is that over any length of time you'd see Rowand bat at least 30 points higher, add some power, and (this is my subjective opinion) play a much better CF. Harris is a 2nd basemen, don't you get it? And not very good at that, in fact ... my opinion is that we can win for sure with AR in Center. If you throw away opinion, there is no evidence that states that WH is better or really even useful. Let's get back Simmons and see what he can do. Comparing AR and BSimmons would be much more practical ...

gumshoe

Randar68
06-17-2003, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
but Rangar, you are on the losing end of this argument. There is absolutely nothing that would tell a neutral thinker that Willie Harris or anyone else is a better option than Aaron.

*****. No, the three of you are the only people supporting Crash, everyone else is tired of beating their heads against this wall, called, rediculous. See Daver's posts a few back.

maurice
06-17-2003, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
No, what I'm trying to prove is that Rowand is not a major league quality player. Other players have no bearing on that.

It must have been an imposter posting that Harris should start ahead of Rowand. You really should re-read your own posts before writing this nonsense.

Harris has better numbers in AA and AAA

Who cares? Your not trying to prove that Harris is better! Must be that nasty imposter again.

According to your logic, Aaron Miles is a better prospect than Joe Borchard. That's absurd. The bottom line is that nobody knows whether Rowand or Harris is better. Chances are, they'll both be marginal players throughout their careers. Since it looks like KW is unwilling to get someone better, we're going to have to find out.

That is what a majority of scouting is, a subjective opinion.

Congratulations! It only took you 2,189 posts, but you finally realized that different people are permitted to have different subjective opinions concerning the ability of an unproven player, especially when there is insufficient objective proof to the contrary. Scout A thinks Webster will be better than Reed. Scout B disagrees. Only time will tell who is right and who is wrong. They might both be good. They might both fizzle out in AAA. Nobody knows.

You think Harris will be better than Rowand. Gumshoe disagrees. I think that Harris and Rowand are both marginal players, but Rowand will be a better CF. If they're given an opportunity to succeed at the major league level, time will tell. Until then, nobody knows. You might have ESPN, but you don't have ESP.

maurice
06-17-2003, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
No, the three of you are the only people supporting Crash, everyone else is tired of beating their heads against this wall, called, rediculous.

Actually, you're the only one supporting Harris over Rowand in CF. A handful of people would rather see Rowand than Harris. Everyone else thinks that debating the relative merits of two marginal players is pointless. Having considered the issue ad naseum, I'm inclined to agree.

Randar68
06-17-2003, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Everyone else thinks that debating the relative merits of two marginal players is pointless. Having considered the issue ad naseum, I'm inclined to agree.

I don't think either one of them will be above average in the majors, and probably not even average. We know what Rowand can do and it isn't pretty, give someone else a shot and sit Rowand down. Those are my main points, other than that, I agree with the above.