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View Full Version : *Official* Game day thread - Sunday, 6/15.


voodoochile
06-15-2003, 01:06 PM
Please use this thread for all game related comments. All others will be deleted. The chat room is open...

GO SOX!

voodoochile
06-15-2003, 02:24 PM
Anyone know what is up with the armbands? Everyone seems to be wearing them, even the umps and the Padres. Is it some memorial, or charity thing?

mack10zie
06-15-2003, 02:31 PM
Why was Olivo not bunting Rowand over?!? It's not like he's one of our best hitters....

ilsox7
06-15-2003, 02:40 PM
He showed bunt, but I think it went 2-0. Swung away, then of course Rowand makes a HORRIBLE baserunning play and should be pulled from the game for it...but alas he won't.

voodoochile
06-15-2003, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by ilsox7
He showed bunt, but I think it went 2-0. Swung away, then of course Rowand makes a HORRIBLE baserunning play and should be pulled from the game for it...but alas he won't.

Exactly. Why run 6 steps off the bag just as the ball is going to be caught thus denying yourself the chance to move to third with 1 away? That is twice the Sox have had a leadoff double and failed to move him to third with less than 2 outs and get the run home.

I am getting really sick of stupid baseball. Jerry Manuel has GOT to be fired. It's a one run game and Garland is pitching great. Make something happen, Sox...

mack10zie
06-15-2003, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by ilsox7
He showed bunt, but I think it went 2-0. Swung away, then of course Rowand makes a HORRIBLE baserunning play and should be pulled from the game for it...but alas he won't.

What did he do.... I'm "watching" the game on Sportsline, so I obvisously don't get to see all the little things that happen. Could Rowand have tagged up on Olivo's fly out?

ndgt10
06-15-2003, 02:52 PM
The ball was hit to the warning track with the outfielder running into the wall. No question he could have tagged up.

mack10zie
06-15-2003, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by ndgt10
The ball was hit to the warning track with the outfielder running into the wall. No question he could have tagged up.

That's inexcusable, what could he possibly have been thinking?!? :angry:

Would be even more pissed if the Blue Jays didn't just hit a homer in the bottom of the 10th against the Cubs....

voodoochile
06-15-2003, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by ndgt10
The ball was hit to the warning track with the outfielder running into the wall. No question he could have tagged up.

Hey, Welcome Aboard! :D:

The Kotsay fell down as he was making the catch at the wall in LCF. The fact that Rowand didn't make it to third should be grounds enough to be benched, IMO. Dumbest play by a longshot in a while...

mack10zie
06-15-2003, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Hey, Welcome Aboard! :D:

The Kotsay fell down as he was making the catch at the wall in LCF. The fact that Rowand didn't make it to third should be grounds enough to be benched, IMO. Dumbest play by a longshot in a while...

Exactly what I was thinking. If I'm JM Aaron doesn't make it back out to CF the next inning. Not only does he have to teach Rowand that that type of thing is unacceptable, but he needs to show his team that he's not gonna allow that stuff to happen.

Fridaythe13thJason
06-15-2003, 03:14 PM
Yes, Aaron's baserunning was pretty rough, but give me a break on this strikezone. Who are we facing here? A HOFer? No. Some kid. Why does he get the Pedro Martinez strikezone then?

mack10zie
06-15-2003, 03:20 PM
Well, gotta think that the 8th was Jon's last inning of the night. Very solid outing for him again. :smile:

Now let's get a couple of runs and get this boy a W.

Lip Man 1
06-15-2003, 03:25 PM
Nice to see things are back to normal ...dumb base running, no clutch hitting and letting a starter with an ERA of over 8 pitch a shutout!

I remember bringing up that "benching" for boneheaded mistakes and got ripped for it obviously some fans are concerned that if Manager Gandhi were to do that the Sox would have to forfeit every game.

Smooth move taking Thomas out of the field as well to put him back as DH.


Lip

valposoxfan
06-15-2003, 03:38 PM
Paul Konerko may be the slowest living thing on this planet. No clutch hitting. Disgusting. Hawk made a comment about the Sox being baffled again by a pitcher they have never seen before. Kinda disheartening that apparently the Sox can only hit if they face a pitcher they've seen before. What a joke for a team.

spanishwhite
06-15-2003, 03:44 PM
gotta love that Daubach eye!

ilsox7
06-15-2003, 03:45 PM
If Rowans isn't sent to AAA after this game, it's a travesty. In fact, vut him outright. What value does he add? He doesn't get good jumps in CF, cannot hit, cannot run the bases, and obviously doesn't know how to bunt. Worthless POS...

spanishwhite
06-15-2003, 03:47 PM
and that clutch bunting.

Good job Rowand!

balboner
06-15-2003, 03:47 PM
Why in the hell was Rios batting instead of Jimenez? Not only is Jimenez a better hitter, but he's faster, and Rios hits into a ton of double plays.

spanishwhite
06-15-2003, 03:49 PM
That's Sox baseball!

Daubach gets on to give the fans a bit of hope.

Rowand promptly bunt pops out.

and Rios gets the game ending double play.

Gotta love this team.

Lip Man 1
06-15-2003, 03:50 PM
If it wasn't so pathetic you'd almost have to laugh at these buffoons.

Strand five base runners in the last three innings. Hilarious.

I wonder where are all those Aaron Rowand defenders from last season?

Him, Harris, Rios, Borchard all useless garbage.

Guys like Landis, Berry, Hershberger, Johnson and Rudy law must be shaking their heads over these clowns.

Lip

valposoxfan
06-15-2003, 03:52 PM
I just vomited in my mouth... Terrible. Why was Rios PH for Jimenez?? Sigh.

jeremyb1
06-15-2003, 04:05 PM
a few thoughts.

1. rowand's baserunning was absolutely ridiculous. i was livid. there's no excuse for that. that said, the talk about benching him or sending him to AAA is ridiculous. he hit the ball hard three times today, he looks good.

2. another outstanding start from garland.

3. i can't believe the amount of complaining people do when manuel does minor things like warm up the pen a few pitches too late and yet they aren't upset when he has the guy who swung the bat the best for us all day try to bunt against a pitcher who can't find the strike zone!!!!! this was far and away the most idiotic thing manuel has done all season and if he loses his job for anything that should be it. pinch hitting rios instead of dj was also just pathetic.

4. no offense. perez is a good pitcher but he's not that good. he was giving up 3 runs per 9 innings in AAA so there's no excuse to score no runs against him. our hitters are terribly weak mentally. they have no sense of the strikezone or simply don't care. i'm growing increasingly frustrated with frank for swinging at pitches out of the zone (he of all people knows better) to try and carry the team. he needs to take his walks whether he's swinging the bat well or not.

we did win the series but the bottom line is we lost an opportunity to pick up ground and we're not going anywhere if we can only just barely take 2 of 3 from a team that was 20-49 coming into the game.

ilsox7
06-15-2003, 04:08 PM
When you have the opportunity to put the tying run in scoring position with less than 2 outs in the bottom of the 9th, you do it. The situation called for a bunt...if Rowand can't bunt, then you put your best bunter in the pinch hit. As for sending Rowand down, I am all for it. At some point, a statement needs to be made to this team. That statement is: if you don't get the job done and aren't in the game mentally, then you're going to pay the price.

Jerko
06-15-2003, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by ilsox7
When you have the opportunity to put the tying run in scoring position with less than 2 outs in the bottom of the 9th, you do it. The situation called for a bunt...if Rowand can't bunt, then you put your best bunter in the pinch hit. As for sending Rowand down, I am all for it. At some point, a statement needs to be made to this team. That statement is: if you don't get the job done and aren't in the game mentally, then you're going to pay the price.

We had the tying run in scoring position TWICE with NO outs and could not score. Also, who is our best bunter? Does that person even exist? How about saying this: "If Rowand can't bunt, don't make him bunt?" He had 2 hits already. Let him swing! We made 3 outs in the 9th against a guy that threw 1 strike the entire inning. Well, at least with Boston coming to town we don't have to worry about bunting since we'll be down 5 runs every game of that series.

jeremyb1
06-15-2003, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by ilsox7
When you have the opportunity to put the tying run in scoring position with less than 2 outs in the bottom of the 9th, you do it. The situation called for a bunt...if Rowand can't bunt, then you put your best bunter in the pinch hit. As for sending Rowand down, I am all for it. At some point, a statement needs to be made to this team. That statement is: if you don't get the job done and aren't in the game mentally, then you're going to pay the price.

i completely disagree. first of all you're assuming that since the baseball community thinks players should be capable of laying down a successful sacrifice bunt on command it does in fact happen. the reality is that its just not true. our team may be worse at bunting that most but no matter who you are its not a sure thing. we had to get a hit in that inning to score. if rowand or rios gets a hit then we have runners on the corners and all we need is a sac fly to get the run home. the only advantage to the sac bunt in that situation is that if its successful it gets us out of the double play, but we sure found our way into one of those despite attempting to bunt, didn't we?

39thandWallace
06-15-2003, 06:04 PM
That game sucked! Nothing like watching a pitcher's dual in the outfield. Why the HELL did JM start Konerko at 1st?

If it ain't broke......

PaleHoseGeorge
06-15-2003, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by 39thandWallace
That game sucked! Nothing like watching a pitcher's dual in the outfield. Why the HELL did JM start Konerko at 1st?

If it ain't broke......

It's a psychological disorder of Manuel's. He simply can't help himself. His obsessive compulsive need to tinker-- even when the team is playing well-- has made him a joke for a manager.

Today's game reminded me a lot of last May. As you may recall, the '02 Sox finished April in first place with the best offensive production of any team in the league. Lofton and Durham at the top of the order were absolutely tearing up the league. Then in early-May-- inexplicably-- Manuel dropped Durham to the #7 spot. The press asked Durham why he was moved and even he had no clue. Manuel just wanted to see what would happen.

Do you remember what happened next? Lofton went into a funk, Durham never regained his earlier form, and the team played corpseball for ten straight weeks. Manuel completely lost control of his team in July and it wasn't until August that they pulled out of their dive, weeks after the season was effectively over.

Why do you **** with the #1 offense in the league? Did Manuel think there was even greater glory waiting if he tweaked it? Could the Sox have become the #0 offense in the league? What a ****ing idiot!

The Sox are doomed to underachieve with this kind of nonsensical managerial style.

RKMeibalane
06-15-2003, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Then in early-May-- inexplicably-- Manuel dropped Durham to the #7 spot. The press asked Durham why he was moved and even he had no clue. Manuel just wanted to see what would happen.

PHG, I believe Manuel's exact words were, "I do like to tinker. It usually doesn't work though." IIRC, you listed that event as one of the most memorable moments of the terrible 2002 season. You also listed the time when Kenny Williams called the players bitches and mother****ers. It was one of the funniest posts I've ever read on this board.

jeremyb1
06-15-2003, 10:24 PM
what does everyone think, that other managers pick a lineup the first series of the season and stick with that exact lineup for 162 games? our starting lineup is still identical from the first day of the season with the exception of the organization exploring its options in center and alomar getting less playing time due to injury.

whether or not manuel switches the lineup two much when he does things like move ray down in the order, that is a completely different issue than giving frank a day off at dh when 1) he hasn't had one in a long time 2) claims to be tired 3) its sunday and the final game of a series. ryan klesko played dh today instead of the outfield, should bochy be fired? bonds played dh here, what about alou, can 'em?

white sox fans can be whiny and pessimistic - i know i'm certainly capable of that behavior - but this perception that manuel has made some egregious error by giving frank one game to rest at dh when he himself claims he's tired after playing first base for two weeks is the absolute most ridiculous thing i've ever heard from sox fandom.

chisox06
06-15-2003, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
white sox fans can be whiny and pessimistic - i know i'm certainly capable of that behavior - but this perception that manuel has made some egregious error by giving frank one game to rest at dh when he himself claims he's tired after playing first base for two weeks is the absolute most ridiculous thing i've ever heard from sox fandom.

I would agree with that. Now the real question is wheter or not Frank will be back at First for another 2 weeks after this break, if hes not Manuel will lead me to believe that he wants to lose on purpose.

Send Rowand down, he sucks, NO EXCUSE for his base running blunder. Also why the hell DJ didnt pinch hit 100% absoultely baffles me, ESPECIALLY against his old team where he knows probably about 90% of the pitchers! Manuel your an a******!

kermittheefrog
06-16-2003, 12:22 AM
QUESTION:

Why does Manuel seem to hate D'Angelo Jimenez. Could you imagine if Jimenez wasn't hitting? Manuel would never give the guy PT. He's been one of our best hitters and not only does he get benched two games in a row but he isn't called on to pinch hit. Manuel is a moron.

WhiteSox = Life
06-16-2003, 01:29 AM
Warning to all - An all over the place post follows:

Honestly, these are the types of games that make me step back and wonder...

Why am I a Chicago White Sox fan?

Then, when I think about it and find no answer, I drop the question and go back to supporting the team.

Sadly, I've had to ask myself this question a few times already this season. Can there not be one season where I don't have to ask myself that question? Then again...

I am a Chicago White Sox fan. Need I say more?

jeremyb1
06-16-2003, 02:04 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
QUESTION:

Why does Manuel seem to hate D'Angelo Jimenez. Could you imagine if Jimenez wasn't hitting? Manuel would never give the guy PT. He's been one of our best hitters and not only does he get benched two games in a row but he isn't called on to pinch hit. Manuel is a moron.

i'm not quite sure there. i don't think manuel fails to play him despite thinking that he's playing well. i think he sits him because of his defense and because he hasn't hit quite as well lately. still, if his defense is so bad play him at dh instead of paully, and despite the fact that he hasn't hit really well the last week or two he still need to be in the lineup considering how weak our lineup is.

39thandWallace
06-16-2003, 03:55 AM
Originally posted by WhiteSox = Life
Warning to all - An all over the place post follows:

Honestly, these are the types of games that make me step back and wonder...

Why am I a Chicago White Sox fan?

Then, when I think about it and find no answer, I drop the question and go back to supporting the team.

Sadly, I've had to ask myself this question a few times already this season. Can there not be one season where I don't have to ask myself that question? Then again...

I am a Chicago White Sox fan. Need I say more?

I totally agree with you.

This is the kind of game that you wish you could walk into the clubhouse find Jerry Manual and hit him as hard as you can in the face!

39thandWallace
06-16-2003, 04:03 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
what does everyone think, that other managers pick a lineup the first series of the season and stick with that exact lineup for 162 games? our starting lineup is still identical from the first day of the season with the exception of the organization exploring its options in center and alomar getting less playing time due to injury.

whether or not manuel switches the lineup two much when he does things like move ray down in the order, that is a completely different issue than giving frank a day off at dh when 1) he hasn't had one in a long time 2) claims to be tired 3) its sunday and the final game of a series. ryan klesko played dh today instead of the outfield, should bochy be fired? bonds played dh here, what about alou, can 'em?

white sox fans can be whiny and pessimistic - i know i'm certainly capable of that behavior - but this perception that manuel has made some egregious error by giving frank one game to rest at dh when he himself claims he's tired after playing first base for two weeks is the absolute most ridiculous thing i've ever heard from sox fandom.

How about sticking with a line up
for more than ONE SERIES!

I've been to 13 games this year and seen 13 different line ups.

hold2dibber
06-16-2003, 08:20 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i can't believe the amount of complaining people do when manuel does minor things like warm up the pen a few pitches too late and yet they aren't upset when he has the guy who swung the bat the best for us all day try to bunt against a pitcher who can't find the strike zone!!!!! this was far and away the most idiotic thing manuel has done all season and if he loses his job for anything that should be it. pinch hitting rios instead of dj was also just pathetic.

I didn't mind the general idea of trying to get a bunt down to avoid the DP. But Rowand has to be smarter up there, too. He bunted on the very first pitch on a pitch that was jaw-high. That's a damn hard pitch to get down anyway; the fact that the pitcher couldn't find the strike zone just compounds things. If you get the bunt signal in that situation, you still have to be selective - make the pitcher throw a strike. If he throws a strike, lay it down. Just another example of Rowand's horse-crap fundamentals. This guy simply is not good enough to get away with that stuff. For him to be a semi-useful major league player, he has to "do the little things." Rowand does not do so.

And hitting Rios instead of Jimenez was a travesty. Manual is a complete moron.

maurice
06-16-2003, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
rowand's baserunning was absolutely ridiculous. i was livid. there's no excuse for that. that said, the talk about benching him or sending him to AAA is ridiculous. he hit the ball hard three times today, he looks good.

Ditto.

The things Crash did poorly yesterday (bunting and baserunning) are on par with 95% of his teammates. It's perfectly reasonable to get upset, but there's no sense singling him out in a game where he had twice as many hits as anyone else. How about Graffy (0-for-4, 2 SOs, 3 LOB, no speed, can't bunt) or the ever-crappy Pauly K (3 LOB, .125 AVE and 0 extra-base hits since 6/1, no speed, can't bunt)? JM's only conceivable alternative at this point is Rios (.225 AVE/.255 OBP, .158/.200 since 6/1, no speed, okay bunter).

Crash has looked very good at the plate since being recalled. Barring a major trade, he should be the starting CF for the rest of the season. He may be only 75% of a good CF, but that's a heck of a lot better than anyone else on the 25-man roster.

As for Sox players not on the 25-man roster . . . the LTP in CF experiment may be over. According to espn.com, he has started only one game in CF for Charlotte (as opposed to 3 games in LF) since being sent down. Jeremy Reed is primarily a RF at high A-ball. (Spidale has startied most recent games in CF for W-S.) Webster and Anderson are light years away from the bigs.

voodoochile
06-16-2003, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
what does everyone think, that other managers pick a lineup the first series of the season and stick with that exact lineup for 162 games? our starting lineup is still identical from the first day of the season with the exception of the organization exploring its options in center and alomar getting less playing time due to injury.

Yeah, except for the constant moving guys around in the order and regularly playing everyone on the bench, Manuel does a fine job...

Come on. Don't be blinded by the smoke and mirrors. This guys could screw up a winning lottery ticket if he had to split up 4 ways. His "brains" get in the way of his ability to manage a big league club...

PaleHoseGeorge
06-16-2003, 12:00 PM
Is there such a thing as White Sox kool-aid? I have to wonder with some of the twisted logic I'm reading in this thread.

Aaron Rowand is a good offensive player because he hit the ball well twice yesterday? It's a wonder the Sox didn't score ten runs instead of zero with that sort of thinking. The team positively sucked yesterday (Rowand included with that pathetic bunt attempt), the line up was a joke, and now the excuses start for the screwball manager and the most marginal ballplayer on the team's roster. Do you know what this sounds like? Here's your answer...

:bluerock

Maybe there isn't as much difference between us and the Flubbie fans as I thought. :(:

maurice
06-16-2003, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I have to wonder with some of the twisted logic I'm reading in this thread. Aaron Rowand is a good offensive player because he hit the ball well twice yesterday?

That WOULD be pretty twisted. I must have missed the post that actually said that. I don't recall anyone on this board EVER calling Crash a "good offensive player."

I agree that we lost because the entire team sucked (except for Garland), that the line up was a joke, and that the manager is a screwball.