PDA

View Full Version : White Flags: Part 3?


ChiSox14305635
06-12-2003, 10:27 PM
Will it happen? And if so, who's going, & who's staying.


I say if it happens, we can bid adieu to Colon, Valentin, Lee, Loaiza, & possibly Koch. And if an AL team nds clutch hitting, maybe even Frank. Any thoughts?

valposoxfan
06-12-2003, 10:32 PM
This won't be a White Flag though. We're nowhere near contending...

spanishwhite
06-12-2003, 10:34 PM
I agree with all the people you listed except Loaiza.

We have the option on him for 3.5 million. Next year, after Colon is gone, we will need some veteran leadership in the rotation.

If he gives us half of what he is giving us now he will be worth it.

The rest of them will pull enough prospects for another decade of rebuilding.

Daver
06-12-2003, 10:42 PM
The Sox have exactly one untradable player,the rest are there for the right price.

ChiSox14305635
06-12-2003, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by spanishwhite
I agree with all the people you listed except Loaiza.

We have the option on him for 3.5 million. Next year, after Colon is gone, we will need some veteran leadership in the rotation.

If he gives us half of what he is giving us now he will be worth it.

The rest of them will pull enough prospects for another decade of rebuilding.


With the way Estaban's pitching right now, they may try to move him to a contender for a lights out prospect. If he were 25-26, that's one thing. But he's 31. I think this team is going to try to get younger and hope that someone from the remaining nucleus can step up and become the veteran leader.

ChiSox14305635
06-12-2003, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by daver
The Sox have exactly one untradable player,the rest are there for the right price.



And who would that be? Mags?

Daver
06-12-2003, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox14305635
And who would that be? Mags?

Frank Thomas,he can't be traded without his consent and he can become a FA at the end of the season.

spanishwhite
06-12-2003, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox14305635
With the way Estaban's pitching right now, they may try to move him to a contender for a lights out prospect. If he were 25-26, that's one thing. But he's 31. I think this team is going to try to get younger and hope that someone from the remaining nucleus can step up and become the veteran leader.

Your assuming that KW will get a lights out prospect.

With him it could go either way.

You have a good point though.

Another thing to consider is that we dont want a rotation filled with youngsters.

I know a team like that called the Tigers.

The Cubs are the next young rotation but at least they have Estes.

I think that Loaiza would be our Estes.

If KW gets an offer that he cannot refuse then of course make it, but I don't think he will get one.

ChiSox14305635
06-12-2003, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by spanishwhite
Your assuming that KW will get a lights out prospect.

With him it could go either way.

You have a good point though.

Another thing to consider is that we dont want a rotation filled with youngsters.

I know a team like that called the Tigers.

The Cubs are the next young rotation but at least they have Estes.

I think that Loaiza would be our Estes.

If KW gets an offer that he cannot refuse then of course make it, but I don't think he will get one.


LOL. Good points, but I also hope Loaiza isn't another "Cal Eldred" type that resurrects his career here but then becomes unservicable. I'd rather get prospects we can use down the line than take a gamble and lose (which has been KW's specialty). May as well see what the youngsters can do. Also, a question besides the topic on this thread: Anybody know what the hell happened with Corwin Malone? This guy was supposed to be on the fast track to Chi-Town, yet I haven't heard crap about him recently. What's up with him?

34 Inch Stick
06-13-2003, 09:51 AM
Daver, I would have a hard time trading Olivo as well. Your point is well taken though. For the right price every player can be moved on this jinxed team. I don't think you could give Konerko away at this point.

Lip Man 1
06-13-2003, 09:58 AM
Just something to consider.

The Sox are dead and buried but that's for THIS YEAR.

If you unload everybody for prospects what takes place in 2004 and 2005? (as if I don't already know the answer!)

By the way the Sox will unload Valentin, Colon, Loazia and possibly Lee because he's arbitration eligible.

I see next year's payroll at 45 million. (Top shelf for the nation's 3rd largest market don't you think?)

Lip

delben91
06-13-2003, 11:10 AM
There are a handful of players that I think the Sox should go out of their way to keep:

Ordonez
Wright
Garland
Marte
Olivo
Jimenez
Crede
Rowand(Just for Randar)

I'd even be willing to part with all of those save Ordonez, Olivo and Crede. Barring an improbable turn around, I say get what you can for the guys on the roster. This team just isn't meant to win the way it's currently constructed, (see 2001, 2002).

I hate starting over, but we know the money isn't going to be spent, so there aren't many alternatives.

mandmandm
06-13-2003, 11:16 AM
Maybe I am being an optimist/delusional but wouldn't it be a good idea to sign Colon and build this team around the four starters Colon, Loiaza, Burhle, and Garland. Get a defensive shortstop and try to get rid of Konerko.

Paulwny
06-13-2003, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Just something to consider.

The Sox are dead and buried but that's for THIS YEAR.

If you unload everybody for prospects what takes place in 2004 and 2005? (as if I don't already know the answer!)

By the way the Sox will unload Valentin, Colon, Loazia and possibly Lee because he's arbitration eligible.

I see next year's payroll at 45 million. (Top shelf for the nation's 3rd largest market don't you think?)

Lip

If we go on another ~ 5yr rebuilding plan and never contend during this span the flubs will absolutely own Chicago.

mandmandm
06-13-2003, 11:50 AM
Based on attendance, coverage, and perception we are already there. The Tribune ticket broker scandal and corky have done nothing to slow down the Cubbie Blue Express. I would never root for the Cubs but with the existing Sox mismangement fewer of my dollars will be spent on the Sox in the future until they wake up and start respecting the fans and realize and admit that they ran the franchise into the ground, and take drastic steps to turn it around. A payroll purge and kids can play part deux is not the answer.

maurice
06-13-2003, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by daver
Frank Thomas,he can't be traded without his consent and he can become a FA at the end of the season.

Ah . . . I thought for sure that you meant Konerko. Hurt might want to cut bait. OTOH, you couldn't trade Konerko because no one would take him. Heck, even if you tied a pork chop around his neck, a dog would refuse to play with him.

Foulke You
06-13-2003, 01:20 PM
I think KW is going to keep this team together as long as he possibly can. He knows his job is on the line. He took over a defending Central Division champion heading into 2001 and if he has to blow the whole thing to pieces (again) halfway through '03 and rebuild it then I really think that it is going to be the care of a different GM.

hold2dibber
06-13-2003, 01:27 PM
The Sox cannot afford another rebuilding. Nor should they need to resort to a rebuilding. The Twins are good, but they're not like the early '90s Indians. For the next 4-5 years, 90 wins will be good enough to win this division. The Sox are not far from being a 90 win team. So tearing down the whole thing would be stupid (and that's not even counting the PR disaster that another rebuilding would be).

So what to do? No. 1 priority absolutely, positively should be signing Colon long term. Is he Randy Johnson? No. But he is a damn good starter, he's relatively young, he's durable and he's consistent. Perfect guy to build your rotation around. I would only trade Loaiza for a seriously good prospect that could contribute next year. He's cheap, he's good, and I don't think he's a fluke. Those two, along with Buehrle (who I am convinced will return to form) and Garland give the Sox the best rotation in the AL Central.

I would try like hell to trade some or all of: Lee, Daubach, Wright, Gordon, Koch, and Konerko (not likely to happen) for left handed power, speed and defense (at SS, LF and CF).

I would entertain offers for Borchard and Crede, as well. I just don't think they're particularly valuable right now.

spanishwhite
06-13-2003, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
The Sox cannot afford another rebuilding. Nor should they need to resort to a rebuilding. The Twins are good, but they're not like the early '90s Indians. For the next 4-5 years, 90 wins will be good enough to win this division. The Sox are not far from being a 90 win team. So tearing down the whole thing would be stupid (and that's not even counting the PR disaster that another rebuilding would be).

So what to do? No. 1 priority absolutely, positively should be signing Colon long term. Is he Randy Johnson? No. But he is a damn good starter, he's relatively young, he's durable and he's consistent. Perfect guy to build your rotation around. I would only trade Loaiza for a seriously good prospect that could contribute next year. He's cheap, he's good, and I don't think he's a fluke. Those two, along with Buehrle (who I am convinced will return to form) and Garland give the Sox the best rotation in the AL Central.

I would try like hell to trade some or all of: Lee, Daubach, Wright, Gordon, Koch, and Konerko (not likely to happen) for left handed power, speed and defense (at SS, LF and CF).

I would entertain offers for Borchard and Crede, as well. I just don't think they're particularly valuable right now.


I agree with you whole heartedly. I think that we should make a BIG effort to resign Colon. He isnt the best pitcher out there, but he is a legitimate ace. His stats don't reflect his real value. A lot of his earned runs have come late into games when we possibly take advantage of him. I think we shouldn't force him into a complete game.

I remember the Schilling trade and I also remember how it was supposed to propel the dbacks into the playoffs. Well, it didn't. It took them another year to get them into the playoffs. It might be the same scenario for us.

You never know.

However, resigning Colon can do wonders for the sox. We have been searching for an ace ever since the wft and we got one. He is a good strong leader for the young pitchers.

34 Inch Stick
06-13-2003, 01:47 PM
Four things you can be sure of: death, taxes, this season is over and Colon is gone. Just hope that Garland continues to develop and Buhrle comes out of it (I am positive that he will). Next year we are looking at Buhrle, Loiza, Garland, Wright and Rauch as starters.

Although it would highlight the bad move, I think we should also dump Koch at the deadline. I still like him and I'm sure many contenders would also (Cardinals and Red Sox). However, it is becoming apparent that Marte can close games. He would be a cost effective alternative.

kevingrt
06-13-2003, 02:10 PM
I don't think it will be considered a white flag trade, but there will be a good amount of trading from the trigger happy KW (at least on players).

Who's going, I really have no clue. One thing I know anybody is eligible to go... no one is on the lock position for KW. At least I don't think so...

Hangar18
06-13-2003, 03:09 PM
Well, I was saving my 1500th post to say .....
SOX BETTER SIGN COLON. I dont know If I can handle
another Rebuilding from this team. The Previous "rebuilding"
phases have amounted to Nothing. Rebuilding is for Chumps.

gosox41
06-13-2003, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by spanishwhite
Your assuming that KW will get a lights out prospect.

With him it could go either way.

You have a good point though.

.

:KW

Do you have a problem with me trading an All Star for Jon Adkins?

gosox41
06-13-2003, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by mandmandm
Maybe I am being an optimist/delusional but wouldn't it be a good idea to sign Colon and build this team around the four starters Colon, Loiaza, Burhle, and Garland. Get a defensive shortstop and try to get rid of Konerko.

Good lukc on getting rid of Konerko. I bet you couldn't give him away right now to any major league team.

Bob

ChiSox14305635
06-13-2003, 10:21 PM
I would entertain offers for Borchard and Crede, as well. I just don't think they're particularly valuable right now.



I wouldn't give up Crede. He's starting to come out of that slump, and the upside is just too great. This is a sophmore slump for him. Next year, I can envision .275/30/100RBI/100RUNS. Easy.

Nellie_Fox
06-13-2003, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Good luck on getting rid of Konerko. I bet you couldn't give him away right now to any major league team. Sure you could. Just send along the money to pay his salary, like they did with Durham.

MarkEdward
06-13-2003, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Sure you could. Just send along the money to pay his salary, like they did with Durham.

That's not exactly fair. Around July of 2002, Ray Durham was very valuable (he still is very valuable). His OPS was between .800 and .900, which is great for a second baseman, and his defense was pretty good. Also, Ray has been a very healthy player throughout his career. That didn't hurt his trade value.

Now look at Konerko. First, his hip condition is a very big problem. Nobody would take damaged goods. Second, he's been a horrible offensive player this year, no contending team would want him. Third, he's too old for a re-building team to want to take him on board. Finally, he's never been a very good offensive first baseman.

Huisj
06-14-2003, 12:08 AM
For whoever it was who asked about molone, i read that his ERA is about 7 right now. Bad command i guess.

spanishwhite
06-14-2003, 12:40 AM
Malone has been on the DL for the past six weeks or so.

He started off the season decent, but his control problems with his injury has really diminished his prospect status.

ChiSox14305635
06-14-2003, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by spanishwhite
Malone has been on the DL for the past six weeks or so.

He started off the season decent, but his control problems with his injury has really diminished his prospect status.



Thanks. Hope Malone recovers and goes back to being the lights out prospect he was a couple of years back.

voodoochile
06-14-2003, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Sure you could. Just send along the money to pay his salary, like they did with Durham.

Trade him for another overpriced player and roll the dice.

I agree that if his hip is indeed a problem then he will be much harder to trade.

gosox41
06-14-2003, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Trade him for another overpriced player and roll the dice.

I agree that if his hip is indeed a problem then he will be much harder to trade.

The only place I hear about Paul's hip problem is in this website. I've been to the games in town all week and am going this weekend and so far I haven't seen any sign that he's injured. He's not limping, not favoring anything, not running slower then he usually does.

I don't believe the problem is PK's hip. I believe it's all in his head.

And if it is his hip, he has proven that he can't play through the pain. So why don't the Sox DL him just to get a better offensive player up here? Assuming he's injured, how long are the Sox going to keep trotting out his overpaid a** to see what is painfully obvious to the rest of us?

Bob

ChiSox14305635
06-14-2003, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
The only place I hear about Paul's hip problem is in this website. I've been to the games in town all week and am going this weekend and so far I haven't seen any sign that he's injured. He's not limping, not favoring anything, not running slower then he usually does.

I don't believe the problem is PK's hip. I believe it's all in his head.

And if it is his hip, he has proven that he can't play through the pain. So why don't the Sox DL him just to get a better offensive player up here? Assuming he's injured, how long are the Sox going to keep trotting out his overpaid a** to see what is painfully obvious to the rest of us?

Bob



I wonder if the boos are starting to get to him. Every time he makes an out, he's getting booed lustily.

Maracucho
06-15-2003, 12:28 AM
I think the only reason Loaiza is still on the team is because there's a pretty good chance that he'll be the starting pitcher in the All star Game. He'll probably be traded soon after that, and to tell you the truth I don't think it's wrong to do so. His value is as high as it will go, and I really don't think he can keep this up. Of course it's not easy to trade someone that is playing so well, but is this team going to win this year? Probably not, so the main focus should be to get better for next year. And I'm not advocating a white flag trade that will set the team back 2 or 3 years. I think the effort should be made to make this a better overall team for next year.

Besides, the players that are not performing are not easy to trade, Loaiza and Colon are the only players that have some value (and maybe Koch if the Red Sox get desperate). Mags won't be traded, not because management won't want to, but because virtually no team can take on the #14 million he's owed for next year. And basically any other payer will get the Sox a bucket of balls, and maybe a corked bat (at this point I'm not considering trading prospects or the cheap guys).

Nellie_Fox
06-15-2003, 02:40 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
That's not exactly fair. Around July of 2002, Ray Durham was very valuable (he still is very valuable). His OPS was between .800 and .900, which is great for a second baseman, and his defense was pretty good. Also, Ray has been a very healthy player throughout his career. That didn't hurt his trade value. Hey, don't get me wrong. I am a big Durham fan. I still think the Sox shouldn't have traded him. Maybe I should have used teal, because I was amazed that, when they traded him, they threw in money for his salary.

I was watching Baseball Tonight, and there was Ray making one of his patented over the shoulder catches on the full run into the outfield. Even at his advanced age (all of 31,) he's still a better middle infielder than anyone the Sox are sending out there.

39thandWallace
06-15-2003, 05:05 AM
This team is really just 2 stars surrounded by mediocre players. The only outfielder we have is Mag's. Why was it so easy for the Braves to fill there outfield with stud talent? And, pick up Mike Hampton when they lost Glavine?

The Yankee's are alway's talked about for buying there team's. Jeter, Soriano, William's, Petite, Posada all from there Farm System.

Hangar18
06-15-2003, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by 39thandWallace
This team is really just 2 stars surrounded by mediocre players. The only outfielder we have is Mag's. Why was it so easy for the Braves to fill there outfield with stud talent? And, pick up Mike Hampton when they lost Glavine?

The Yankee's are alway's talked about for buying there team's. Jeter, Soriano, William's, Petite, Posada all from there Farm System.

Thats because the White Sox, had they had the above listed
players, wouldve already let Jeter file for FA, Pettite and Williams wouldve been traded for "Prospects", and Posada right now would be going thru the "will or wont he be traded" by the Break fiasco. Theres a Distinct DIFFERENCE between the Yanks and the SOX. They KEEP their players together, and ADD to the team. The SOX trade and Let their players go and SUBTRACT
from the team. Its Why Were always a few players short Year after Year after Year after Year after Year after Year after Year
after Year after Year after Year, after Year after Year after Year
after Year after Year
*sigh*

PaleHoseGeorge
06-15-2003, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
...I was watching Baseball Tonight, and there was Ray making one of his patented over the shoulder catches on the full run into the outfield. Even at his advanced age (all of 31,) he's still a better middle infielder than anyone the Sox are sending out there.

The thing I could never figure out about Durham was his defense. He was the absolute best secondbasemen I've ever seen for running into short right field or across into foul territory to catch balls hit over his head. He was simply amazing--and apparently still is. So why was he your basic fire hydrant planted in the ground when it came to fielding balls to his right? If the pitcher didn't grab the ball you *knew* it was going to get past Durham, too. It was uncanny.

Nellie_Fox
06-16-2003, 02:08 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
The thing I could never figure out about Durham was his defense. He was the absolute best secondbasemen I've ever seen for running into short right field or across into foul territory to catch balls hit over his head. He was simply amazing--and apparently still is. So why was he your basic fire hydrant planted in the ground when it came to fielding balls to his right? If the pitcher didn't grab the ball you *knew* it was going to get past Durham, too. It was uncanny. I don't know PHG. The highlight to which I was referring was a popup into short left. Could it have been positioning? During Ray's time with the Sox, I don't think you could say there was a first baseman with good range. Maybe the Sox had Ray shading toward first, thus making "up the middle" balls beyond his reach?

gosox41
06-16-2003, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by Maracucho
I think the only reason Loaiza is still on the team is because there's a pretty good chance that he'll be the starting pitcher in the All star Game. He'll probably be traded soon after that, and to tell you the truth I don't think it's wrong to do so. His value is as high as it will go, and I really don't think he can keep this up. Of course it's not easy to trade someone that is playing so well, but is this team going to win this year? Probably not, so the main focus should be to get better for next year. And I'm not advocating a white flag trade that will set the team back 2 or 3 years. I think the effort should be made to make this a better overall team for next year.

Besides, the players that are not performing are not easy to trade, Loaiza and Colon are the only players that have some value (and maybe Koch if the Red Sox get desperate). Mags won't be traded, not because management won't want to, but because virtually no team can take on the #14 million he's owed for next year. And basically any other payer will get the Sox a bucket of balls, and maybe a corked bat (at this point I'm not considering trading prospects or the cheap guys).

I would give Koch away if I were GM. Even though he's been pitching better lately, he still makes things a little too interesting for what I want out of a closer.


Bob