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View Full Version : The "JM blew another one" thread


pudge
06-12-2003, 09:46 PM
Ok, San Fran game is over, we blow a 4-2 lead in the 9th... why not pull Colon after he gives up the first hit? Bonds had seen Colon three times, what do you think is going to happen? Why not let Marte take a chance at Bonds? What does everyone else think?

A.T. Money
06-12-2003, 09:49 PM
Walk Bonds, let the others beat you.

gosox41
06-12-2003, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Ok, San Fran game is over, we blow a 4-2 lead in the 9th... why not pull Colon after he gives up the first hit? Bonds had seen Colon three times, what do you think is going to happen? Why not let Marte take a chance at Bonds? What does everyone else think?

I don't blame Manuel for this one. Bart's supposed to be the ace, it's his game to lose. He had less then 90 pitches thrown going into the 9th inning and had struck out Bonds 3 times in a row. I would have let him stay in too.

Bob

kevingrt
06-12-2003, 09:49 PM
Let Bonds, hit the HR... Completely stupid... DONT EVEN BRING IN A RELIEVER!!! GET UR ARSE OUT OF TOWN!

LEAVE JM, JUST LEAVE!

valposoxfan
06-12-2003, 09:49 PM
Forget letting Marte face him, how about an intentional walk??? HELLOO!!!! I don't care if he struck out three times, he is the most feared hitter in the league and obviously the most dangerous. You walk him and take your chances. JM has once again failed to use his brain in a crucial situation.

FJA
06-12-2003, 09:51 PM
Agreed ... I said after the first two high pitches to Durham that Colon looked tired or something; after Ray's hit, I was waiting for Jerry to come out of the dugout. I don't think anyone was warming up, though; correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Gordon and Marte started warming up after Bonds' home run (or at least Hawk said so).

PaleHoseGeorge
06-12-2003, 09:53 PM
If they aren't going to fire him, the Sox truly need to send Jerry Manuel to a doctor for an examination. His brain is not working right.

:angry:

valposoxfan
06-12-2003, 09:53 PM
You're right. Nobody...I'll repeat this...NOBODY was warming up before Bond's came to the plate...ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!! That's terrible. Is this a Major League Baseball team???? Managers get paid to think in this game and I think ours has begun to take his paycheck for granted.

Rocklive99
06-12-2003, 09:54 PM
Is Auriella a switch hitter? If not, Why bring in a lefty? Not saying leave Colon in, but a righty from the pen. At this point I don't care if this game was JM's fault or not, I want a new manager.

spanishwhite
06-12-2003, 09:57 PM
It's not like Bonds gets his hrs off of chumps.

He hits EVERYBODY. It doesn't matter if you are
Pedro Randy or Curt

He will hit a hr off of you if he gets a chance.

First base was open. What is it going to hurt to
put him there. Its not like Durham hit a single. He hit
a double. First is open put him there. The chances of Santiago v. Bonds beating you is quite different. And if Santiago beats you, then Bonds would have beaten you.

Colon got LUCKY that he struck him out three times. LUCKY, LUCKY, LUCKY.

He also got arrogant. Guess what happens the fourth time. Colon is not the strikeout pitcher that he once was.

Manuel should have gotten off of his ass and had people in the bullpen after Durham's double and had him IBB Bonds. Then MAYBE I would let him pitch to Santiago.

What could have been a GREAT series win turns into another series loss. How do you think the team feels now? It doesn't matter what they do, they lose. They are destined to lose.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-12-2003, 10:00 PM
I think it's silly that a manager would leave his bullpen sitting on its ass while his starter gives up a ninth inning double and Barry Bonds strides to the plate.

Did Manuel think he was giving Colon a "vote of confidence" by rolling the dice with nobody else even warmed up? Does he think this is high school baseball?

This is stupid baseball.

Tragg
06-12-2003, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by valposoxfan
You're right. Nobody...I'll repeat this...NOBODY was warming up before Bond's came to the plate...ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!! That's terrible. Is this a Major League Baseball team???? Managers get paid to think in this game and I think ours has begun to take his paycheck for granted.

I didn't see the game, but if I read the yahoo clips correctly, Colon then loaded the bases before manuel pulled him. I guess that's a result of no one warming up.

Bonds is one of the 5 best hitters in the history of baseball - he's not just some "slugger". He's homered in the first two games. You do not let hikm beat you. George has it right - Manuel needs medical attention.

Konerkoholic
06-12-2003, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by spanishwhite
It's not like Bonds gets his hrs off of chumps.


First base was open. What is it going to hurt to
put him there. Its not like Durham hit a single. He hit
a double. First is open put him there. What could have been a GREAT series win turns into another series loss. How do you think the team feels now? It doesn't matter what they do, they lose. They are destined to lose.

Ray hit a single. It looked like a double, but Maggs got to the ball and held Ray. I would agree that after Colon fell behind Durham, Manuel should have started to warm up Marte and Koch. I'm aware Colon had thrown 90 pitches or so, and he K'd Bonds 3 times, but Bonds is Bonds. I'll chalk this loss up to JM.

jeremyb1
06-12-2003, 10:05 PM
a few things. first of all i think its ridiculous that if colon retires bonds and we win the game, everyone is talking about how good colon pitched and not how poorly manuel managed. comments like "what did you think was going to happen when he faced him the 4th time" are just absurd. you knew bonds was going to hit a home run because colon struck him out three times?!?! huh?!?! this team has played way too poorly and experienced way too much bad luck to evaluate every decision manuel makes with 20/20 hindsight and to blame him for every loss.

as for bonds, you cannot intentionally walk the tying run on base in the 9th, especially when colon has struck him out three times already. that said, obviously you don't give bonds any pitches to hit seeing as how he's the tying run. maybe that's manuel's fault but colon is 30 years old, he's been in the league quite a while, and he's our ace. don't you think he should know better?! should we really have to waste a mound visit to say: don't groove one to bonds?

i do agree that someone should've been warming after ray's hit but in some ways it was a little too late at that point. our 10 million dollar ace and our best reliever gave up 6 runs in the 9th, manuel can't take all the blame here. the difference between 6 runs and zero runs is not one managerial decision alone.

FJA
06-12-2003, 10:06 PM
Yep ... bad managing, or maybe better said, managing by a guy who gives his team minimum opportunity to win.

Lip Man 1
06-12-2003, 10:07 PM
You walk Bonds and take your chances.

If in fact Manager Gandhi left Bartolo in because he didn't have anybody warming up, then he should be fired instantly.

That would be as dumb a mistake as Terry Bevington waving in the "phantom" relief pitcher.

By the way this is the 7th time this year the Sox have lost a game when they took a lead into the 7th inning or later.

Can't wait to read Gandhi's reasoning in tomorrow's papers.

So much for "momentum" eh?

Lip

valposoxfan
06-12-2003, 10:08 PM
...but he can take the majority. Why can't you walk Bonds in the ninth?? Oh I forgot, he's definitely not the most dangerous hitter in baseball. And not having anyone warm up is huge. Why is Colon still in to face Bonds after the Durham single?? The majority of the blame goes to good ole hope killer himself, JM.

FJA
06-12-2003, 10:13 PM
don't you think he should know better?!

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not cutting Colon much slack for being cocky with Barry Bonds around 100 pitches when he's already struck him out three times and Bonds represents the tying run. I think he might have gotten caught up in the way he dominated Bonds the entire game and the opportunity for a complete game.

But it is Manuel's responsibility to ensure his TEAM still has a plan to win if Bartolo does implode. Sure, we might not have noticed Manuel didn't have anyone warming up if Colon manages to win the game, but that doesn't make it not matter.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-12-2003, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
a few things. first of all i think its ridiculous that if colon retires bonds and we win the game, everyone is talking about how good colon pitched and not how poorly manuel managed. comments like "what did you think was going to happen when he faced him the 4th time" are just absurd. you knew bonds was going to hit a home run because colon struck him out three times?!?! huh?!?! this team has played way too poorly and experienced way too much bad luck to evaluate every decision manuel makes with 20/20 hindsight and to blame him for every loss.

Colon fell behind Durham, the leadoff man, 2-0. Then he went to a full count before Durham stroked a double. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to recognize a pitcher losing his control in the ninth inning, do you?

as for bonds, you cannot intentionally walk the tying run on base in the 9th, especially when colon has struck him out three times already. that said, obviously you don't give bonds any pitches to hit seeing as how he's the tying run. maybe that's manuel's fault but colon is 30 years old, he's been in the league quite a while, and he's our ace. don't you think he should know better?! should we really have to waste a mound visit to say: don't groove one to bonds?

First base was empty. Why not walk Bonds and set up a possible double play? At the very least, Manuel should have had relievers getting warmed up in the bullpen, don't you think?

And for the record, Bonds smacked Colon's very first pitch. But you go on with your bad self suggesting Manuel was right to stick with Colon.

i do agree that someone should've been warming after ray's hit but in some ways it was a little too late at that point. our 10 million dollar ace and our best reliever gave up 6 runs in the 9th, manuel can't take all the blame here.

It was NOT too late. The only reason you think it was too late is for just one reason: Jerry Manuel elected to roll the dice without ANY back up plan. That's inexcusable for a major league manager.

duke of dorwood
06-12-2003, 10:19 PM
Colon also sat a long time in the bottom of the eith with all those pitches thrown to Lee and Konerko. He just doesnt compute anything.

jeremyb1
06-12-2003, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Colon fell behind Durham, the leadoff man, 2-0. Then he went to a full count before Durham stroked a double. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to recognize a pitcher losing his control in the ninth inning, do you?

colon cruised through the entire game. you see two pitches and immediately say "he's lost it get someone warming"? you and i both know that if manuel had pulled colon after ray's hit and koch had blown the game, there would be a dozen threads on this board talking about how colon had been cruising and manuel blew it by pulling him after giving up only one hit. colon battled back to 3-2 on ray so obviously he hadn't completely lost it. i wish manuel had someone warming after the 2-0 count or even better to start the inning. i'm sure he wishes he does too. however, its one thing to say that after we lost the game and another to say it with such certainty at the time.

Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
First base was empty. Why not walk Bonds and set up a possible double play? At the very least, Manuel should have had relievers getting warmed up in the bullpen, don't you think?

uhh. ray durham was on first base. yes manuel should've had someone warming after ray's hit. he waited one pitch later when bonds hit the homerun. i don't see that as why we lost. the extra 15 seconds of time warming up wouldn't have won the game.

Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
And for the record, Bonds smacked Colon's very first pitch. But you go on with your bad self suggesting Manuel was right to stick with Colon.

man i would love to hear you say this if we'd won the game 4-2. "man manuel was nuts i can't believe he allowed colon to give up a single and still stay in the game."

Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
It was NOT too late. The only reason you think it was too late is for just reason: Jerry Manuel elected to roll the dice without ANY back up plan. That's inexcusable for a major league manager.

i don't think starting the 9th without someone warming in the pen when your starter has dominated all game is rolling the dice. that's a pretty safe bet. you don't warm someone up unless your starter is struggling and there's a good chance he'll have to be replaced. we didn't have anyone warming to start the 8th or the 7th. there's a reason you don't have someone in the pen all game even if it is a one or two run game.

manuel having someone warm in the pen after the first pitch of bonds at bat instead of before the first pitch isn't a reason we lost the game. its just not.

spanishwhite
06-12-2003, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
a few things. first of all i think its ridiculous that if colon retires bonds and we win the game, everyone is talking about how good colon pitched and not how poorly manuel managed.

as for bonds, you cannot intentionally walk the tying run on base in the 9th, especially when colon has struck him out three times already.

our 10 million dollar ace and our best reliever gave up 6 runs in the 9th, manuel can't take all the blame here. the difference between 6 runs and zero runs is not one managerial decision alone.

Yeah, the key phrase is IF. IF Colon had retired Bonds? He didnt did he. IF he did retire Bonds, I would have called him a lucky bastard. The odds were against him. There have been a lot of IFs this season.

I have never posted against Manuel, but, my man, he done f%@#$&@ up tonight. And when someone does it, take responsibility.

Why do you always stick up for Manuel? He could have gone out there, took the ball from Colon, and start to pitch against Bonds himself and you would have defended him.

Is it his fault that the players dont always perform, its debatable.
But the team is not performing. And we have the players to make at least a race out of the division. So who do we fire? Fire someone! This team is highly underperforming. Fire the whole team and keep the all knowing manager named Manuel.

this is his sixth season. If Von Joshua wasnt the hitting coach in 2000, he wouldn't have made the only appearance that he has made in the playoffs.

He has had enough time. Let another coach try.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-12-2003, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
colon cruised through the entire game. you see two pitches and immediately say "he's lost it get someone warming"? you and i both know that if manuel had pulled colon after ray's hit and koch had blown the game, there would be a dozen threads on this board talking about how colon had been cruising and manuel blew it by pulling him after giving up only one hit. colon battled back to 3-2 on ray so obviously he hadn't completely lost it. i wish manuel had someone warming after the 2-0 count or even better to start the inning. i'm sure he wishes he does too. however, its one thing to say that after we lost the game and another to say it with such certainty at the time.



uhh. ray durham was on first base. yes manuel should've had someone warming after ray's hit. he waited one pitch later when bonds hit the homerun. i don't see that as why we lost. the extra 15 seconds of time warming up wouldn't have won the game.



man i would love to hear you say this if we'd won the game 4-2. "man manuel was nuts i can't believe he allowed colon to give up a single and still stay in the game."



i don't think starting the 9th without someone warming in the pen when your starter has dominated all game is rolling the dice. that's a pretty safe bet. you don't warm someone up unless your starter is struggling and there's a good chance he'll have to be replaced. we didn't have anyone warming to start the 8th or the 7th. there's a reason you don't have someone in the pen all game even if it is a one or two run game.

manuel having someone warm in the pen after the first pitch of bonds at bat instead of before the first pitch isn't a reason we lost the game. its just not.

Whoops. I would retort all of this nonsense, but I'm not going to bother for reasons you already know and I will not repeat.

You aren't trying hard enough to communicate, so neither will I. You have your reasons, so no hard feelings.

FJA
06-12-2003, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
man i would love to hear you say this if we'd won the game 4-2. "man manuel was nuts i can't believe he allowed colon to give up a single and still stay in the game."

This is somewhat faulty logic; I don't think we'd be talking about Manuel at all if we'd won the game. We'd be talking about Colon.

The fact remains, Manuel had no plan beyond one-track risk-taking, which we just can't afford at this point. Just because we would have glossed over it had we won doesn't mean the mistake wouldn't have been made. He just would've gotten away with it.

cheeses_h_rice
06-12-2003, 10:32 PM
I just got back from the park, and I have to disagree with many of the sentiments here.

Durham hit a single, not a double. Walking Bonds at that point would have meant bringing the winning/lead run to the plate, so I thought having Colon pitch to him (esp. given his 3 K's earlier) was completely appropriate. Barry just beat him, and beat him soundly.

However, it was apparent that Bart had just lost it at that point, and he probably should have been yanked earlier. Marte served up a meatball to Aurelia, so I blame him & Colon for the fiasco that was the 9th. JM had but a small part to play there.

Colon was only on 85 pitches going into the 9th, and he was cruising. Giving him an opportunity to finish the game was totally appropriate, IMO.

Kroozah
06-12-2003, 10:33 PM
Colon starting the ninth inning was fine, he only threw 88 pitches after the 8th inning. BUT, have your bullpen up and throwing just incase. Since, Colon thought he could throw some more cheese by Bonds, ya right, instead of walking him. The game would have been tied and you would have Marte, come in and hold the situation there.

thezeker
06-12-2003, 10:34 PM
Colon pitching to Bonds in the 9th is acceptable.

No one warming up from the 8th inning on is inexcusable!!!


Fire Manuel and break up this pathetic bunch of losers!!!!

PaleHoseGeorge
06-12-2003, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
I just got back from the park, and I have to disagree with many of the sentiments here.

Durham hit a single, not a double. Walking Bonds at that point would have meant bringing the winning/lead run to the plate, so I thought having Colon pitch to him (esp. given his 3 K's earlier) was completely appropriate. Barry just beat him, and beat him soundly.

However, it was apparent that Bart had just lost it at that point, and he probably should have been yanked earlier. Marte served up a meatball to Aurelia, so I blame him & Colon for the fiasco that was the 9th. JM had but a small part to play there.

Colon was only on 85 pitches going into the 9th, and he was cruising. Giving him an opportunity to finish the game was totally appropriate, IMO.

Sportsline has Durham leading off with a double. That's where the confusion lies. Assuming Sportsline has the pitch sequence correct, there was plenty of evidence Colon was struggling long before either he or Marte served up those meatballs to lose the game. Manuel had nobody warming up and the game slipped away.

jeremyb1
06-12-2003, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by FJA
This is somewhat faulty logic; I don't think we'd be talking about Manuel at all if we'd won the game. We'd be talking about Colon.

that's my exact point. is no one familiar with the hindsight bias? everyone relies on hindsight to form opinions and that's total bs because you don't have that benefit when making the decision. its completely riduculous that if we win the game its because bartolo colon is a great pitcher but if we lose the game its because manuel is a terrible manager. it has to be one or the other but not both. if colon had gotten out of the 9th manuel's decision making process would've been exactly the same and hence his decision is just as good or bad win or lose. what's faulty logic is assuming manuel had reason to suspect colon would pitch poorly in the 9th beforehand just because you know that he did pitch poorly in the 9th afterwards!! its the equivalent of discovering the winning lottery ticket was bought at a local convienience store and deciding you screwed up because you didn't buy a lotto ticket this week!!!!!!

ChiSox14305635
06-12-2003, 10:39 PM
I know JM didn't want the game to be in the capable hands of Koch with the best hitter in the game. But I would've damn sure given Damaso the shot at it. He got Bonds out on Tuesday, plus he would've gotten Ray-Ray as well considering Ray's better from the left side than the right. And then calling for Marte before Aurilia was announced? 3 bad mistakes by JM. Will he even last until the ASB?

jeremyb1
06-12-2003, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by Kroozah
Colon starting the ninth inning was fine, he only threw 88 pitches after the 8th inning. BUT, have your bullpen up and throwing just incase. Since, Colon thought he could throw some more cheese by Bonds, ya right, instead of walking him. The game would have been tied and you would have Marte, come in and hold the situation there.

like i said before i wish manuel would've had the pen up at the beginning of the inning and i'm sure he does too but i don't get the impression always having someone else up warming up in the 9th in a close game is common place.

we don't have marte warm up when koch starts the 9th just in case he blows it. i cannot say that i've seen the pen up every time a pitcher has gone for a complete game in the 9th in a close game. was the pen up saturday when colon went the distance? i don't think so and i didn't hear anyone complain. ditto for his 3 other complete games.

Jerko
06-12-2003, 10:41 PM
Well, less than 100 pitches and leaving the starter into the 9th inning I really don't have a problem with. HOWEVER, after that first hit, ANYBODY ELSE but Colon would have been yanked. Is there a contest to get Colon to throw CG's every time out? You know, Bonds hit a homer in every game of the series, so MAYBE 4 years from now when we play the Giants again and Manuel is still our manager, if Bonds is still playing and hits a homer the first 2 games of that series, maybe BY THEN Manuel will realize Bonds is good. Then Beving...er Manuel had NOBODY IN THE BULLPEN until after the 4th hit of the 9th inning?!?!?!? Any other starter in that long would have been YANKED after that first hit of the 9th. UNREAL! Now we get to watch the Padres kick our ass because we're the one team in MLB that can't get Rondell White out going back to his days with the Cub. My friends want to go to the game tomorrow, but I am now having a hard time giving up my money to see this brain dead manager look like he's trying to lose on purpose and to be called "unknowledgeble" by a 2-10 pitcher with a 9 game, 2 month losing streak. At least the Padres are coming so I can see the next 3 'up and coming' pitchers with ERA's of 6 hold us to 2 runs a game. Brutal. As much as everybody badmouths Bevington, this puts Manuel right behind him in my book as the 2nd worst Sox manager in recent history.

Viva Magglio
06-12-2003, 10:41 PM
I'm probably repeating something that was already suggested in this thread, but I'm too angry to go back and look. What I think Manuel should have done is have Koch and Marte start to warm in the bottom of the eighth. I would have let Colon start the ninth but pulled him in favor of Marte if Durham got on. I realize that Marte would later give up the slam to Aurelia, but I think Marte would have matched up better against Bonds than Colon in that situation. This is yet another example of Jerry Manuel blowing the game, even though he does not deserve 100% of the blame. We pissed this one away by multiple means. How about those three double plays we hit into tonight? And shouldn't Aaron Rowand know how to bunt by now?

Hey, I think we'd all agree that Jerry Manuel is a great guy. But I wish that he be fired tomorrow, which we all know he won't be, but that is what I want. I realize that firing Manuel will not really change much; it sure as hell won't save this season. Nevertheless, Manuel must join Rick Neuheisel on the fired coaches line. Such a gesture would be at least be a sign that such mediocrity is unacceptable. Evidently, such crap is very acceptable to Jerry Reinsdorf and Kenny Williams because they continue to sit on their hands.

:firejerry
:firejerry
:firejerry
:firejerry

jeremyb1
06-12-2003, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Whoops. I would retort all of this nonsense, but I'm not going to bother for reasons you already know and I will not repeat.

You aren't trying hard enough to communicate, so neither will I. You have your reasons, so no hard feelings.

i don't write posts for my own health, i do it to attempt to explain my reasoning and present people with a different explanation of events that transpired. i'm not trying to antagonize anyone, i put a lot of thought into explaining my arguments. no one has a gun to your head to continue the conversation but don't accuse me of trying not to communicate.

FJA
06-12-2003, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
that's my exact point. is no one familiar with the hindsight bias? everyone relies on hindsight to form opinions and that's total bs because you don't have that benefit when making the decision. its completely riduculous that if we win the game its because bartolo colon is a great pitcher but if we lose the game its because manuel is a terrible manager. it has to be one or the other but not both. if colon had gotten out of the 9th manuel's decision making process would've been exactly the same and hence his decision is just as good or bad win or lose. what's faulty logic is assuming manuel had reason to suspect colon would pitch poorly in the 9th beforehand just because you know that he did pitch poorly in the 9th afterwards!! its the equivalent of discovering the winning lottery ticket was bought at a local convienience store and deciding you screwed up because you didn't buy a lotto ticket this week!!!!!!

But if Bartolo had won, it would've reaffirmed the general opinion that he is a good pitcher. Manual had a large hand in the loss (or at least we should be able to agree he had a large hand in them losing by four), which reaffirms the general opinion that he is at best a mediocre manager. I don't think this game brought anyone an epiphany of our manager's mediocrity.

jeremyb1
06-12-2003, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by Jerko
Manuel had NOBODY IN THE BULLPEN until after the 4th hit of the 9th inning?!?!?!?

the pen was up immediately after bonds' home run.

Viva Magglio
06-12-2003, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
that's my exact point. is no one familiar with the hindsight bias? everyone relies on hindsight to form opinions and that's total bs because you don't have that benefit when making the decision....

Don't give me that. Wouldn't you have had Marte ready in the pen to face Bonds if Durham got on? Joe Torre would have. Tony LaRussa would have. Dusty Baker would have. Lou Pinella would have. So would have all the managers in MLB better than Manuel.

jeremyb1
06-12-2003, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by FJA
But if Bartolo had won, it would've reaffirmed the general opinion that he is a good pitcher. Manual had a large hand in the loss (or at least we should be able to agree he had a large hand in them losing by four), which reaffirms the general opinion that he is at best a mediocre manager. I don't think this game brought anyone an epiphany of our manager's mediocrity.

you're missing the point. to even use the word "loss" shows you're using the result of the game and the manner in which colon pitched to the batters in the 9th - facts manuel was unaware of when he left him in to start the 9th - to form your opinion of manuel's decision making.

Viva Magglio
06-12-2003, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
the pen was up immediately after bonds' home run.

But it was still too late. A thinking manager would have had them ready earlier just in case. The fact that the pen was up at this overdue time only allowed more Giants to get on base. And we all saw what happened.

Jerko
06-12-2003, 10:51 PM
A guy on the score just made another good point. When Durham was up last year in tight late-game situations, the other team always put in a lefty to face him since he is a weaker hitter from the right side. Do you think the manager that watched that happen for 5 years would actually remember that and try the same thing? The man does not pay attention, he just goes by his little "situation book" and ignores things that happened right in front of his face for years in favor of what his little book says "might" happen. So if MARTE starts the 9th inning (even though he did give up a homer), you would have had MARTE against a right handed Durham and then a left handed Bonds.

You know that is a good point, but I'm sure if Marte started the 9th, got Durham and Bonds out on 2 pitches, JM would have pulled him cause God forbid a righty was coming up and Koch would have blown it anyway. This has got to end. At least lose like a team and not because you are stupid. I passed the Angels bobble-head downtown today and I swear that thing can manage better than Manuel.

jeremyb1
06-12-2003, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
Don't give me that. Wouldn't you have had Marte ready in the pen to face Bonds if Durham got on? Joe Torre would have. Tony LaRussa would have. Dusty Baker would have. Lou Pinella would have. So would have all the managers in MLB better than Manuel.

not necessarily no. if i feel colon is pitching so well that i want him to pitch the 9th, i'm not going to completely flip flop just because one batter gets a hit. you're assuming that manuel would've wanted marte to face bonds depending on what happened between colon and durham. if colon was completely lights out and i have a great deal of faith in him then i'm not going to let one batter - durham - form my entire opinion of whether or not i want him to face bonds.

if i think colon is pitching so incredibly well that i want him to pitch instead of marte who is sporting an era near 1 or koch who is my closer, i'm not going to pull him or leave him in based entirely on what durham does. i'd have to have some doubts about his ability to retire bonds and get through the 9th for that to happen. manuel didn't. you can disagree with that i suppose but its hard to deny how well colon had been pitching.

spanishwhite
06-12-2003, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
I just got back from the park, and I have to disagree with many of the sentiments here.

Durham hit a single, not a double. Walking Bonds at that point would have meant bringing the winning/lead run to the plate, so I thought having Colon pitch to him (esp. given his 3 K's earlier) was completely appropriate. Barry just beat him, and beat him soundly.

However, it was apparent that Bart had just lost it at that point, and he probably should have been yanked earlier. Marte served up a meatball to Aurelia, so I blame him & Colon for the fiasco that was the 9th. JM had but a small part to play there.

Colon was only on 85 pitches going into the 9th, and he was cruising. Giving him an opportunity to finish the game was totally appropriate, IMO.

I have a question. Why has Bonds led the National League in walks for the past couple of years? I know that he almost broke the record for that.

Because the guy is a monster a plate. You don't put the tying run on base? Yeah, of course not. That is acceptable when it isnt a guy like Bonds or a ridiculous clutch hitter like Edgar.

He struck him out 3 times earlier. He also struck out Durham 2 times straight to open the game. Then Durham put the ball into play and then got a hit off of him. He was obviously losing it.
A good strategist would realize that Santiago is not the hitter that Bonds is. A good coach would rather put the tying run on base (Bonds) instead of letting Bonds tie it with one swing.

Ooops... we don't have a good coach.

FJA
06-12-2003, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
you're missing the point. to even use the word "loss" shows you're using the result of the game and the manner in which colon pitched to the batters in the 9th - facts manuel was unaware of when he left him in to start the 9th - to form your opinion of manuel's decision making.

Win, loss or tie, Manuel made a mistake in not having a plan in case Bartolo implodes--which he did. Like I said before, had we won, Manuel would've gotten away with it, because no one would've checked to see if anyone was in the bullpen. It was a dumb and risky mistake either way. Unfortunately, we lost and it's obvious Manuel is a big reason why.

jeremyb1
06-12-2003, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
But it was still too late. A thinking manager would have had them ready earlier just in case. The fact that the pen was up at this overdue time only allowed more Giants to get on base. And we all saw what happened.

see my other posts in this subject. i do not believe it is precedent to always have another pitcher up in the 9th - even if your starter is still in - just to be safe.

cheeses_h_rice
06-12-2003, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
Don't give me that. Wouldn't you have had Marte ready in the pen to face Bonds if Durham got on? Joe Torre would have. Tony LaRussa would have. Dusty Baker would have. Lou Pinella would have. So would have all the managers in MLB better than Manuel.

Isn't Bonds almost as dangerous to lefties as he is righties?

Me, I'd take the flame-throwing stud Colon over the newbie Marte any day of the week. Colon had thrown about 92 pitches when Bonds came to the plate, and IMO was still doing OK except for a bit of wildness in facing Ray Ray.

jeremyb1
06-12-2003, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by FJA
Win, loss or tie, Manuel made a mistake in not having a plan in case Bartolo implodes--which he did. Like I said before, had we won, Manuel would've gotten away with it, because no one would've checked to see if anyone was in the bullpen. It was a dumb and risky mistake either way. Unfortunately, we lost and it's obvious Manuel is a big reason why.

you can't have a contingency plan for every possible mistake though. shouldn't we have had a reliever up in the 7th in case bartolo imploded? in a two run game you're always two batters away from giving up the lead. i suppose its more frustrating when it happens in the 9th but the result is still the same. you can't be ready for everything. sometimes a pitcher just has to get it done.

jeremyb1
06-12-2003, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by spanishwhite
I have a question. Why has Bonds led the National League in walks for the past couple of years? I know that he almost broke the record for that.

Because the guy is a monster a plate. You don't put the tying run on base? Yeah, of course not. That is acceptable when it isnt a guy like Bonds or a ridiculous clutch hitter like Edgar.

He struck him out 3 times earlier. He also struck out Durham 2 times straight to open the game. Then Durham put the ball into play and then got a hit off of him. He was obviously losing it.
A good strategist would realize that Santiago is not the hitter that Bonds is. A good coach would rather put the tying run on base (Bonds) instead of letting Bonds tie it with one swing.

Ooops... we don't have a good coach.

obviously colon shouldn't have given him good pitches to hit but is that entirely manuel's fault? should manuel really have to send cooper out to the mound to remind bartolo he shouldn't challenge bonds when he's the tying run?

Viva Magglio
06-12-2003, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
obviously colon shouldn't have given him good pitches to hit but is that entirely manuel's fault? should manuel really have to send cooper out to the mound to remind bartolo he shouldn't challenge bonds when he's the tying run?

Jeremy, you are missing the basic point which is that Manuel failed to think ahead and have Marte ready to face Bonds in case Durham got on.

Jerko
06-12-2003, 11:01 PM
I thought I heard Hawk say a couple batters (hits) after the HR that the bullpen was finally up. Oh well, they still weren't up fast enough for me. Then again I was so mad after Bonds' homer I stopped paying attention. I can't stand this team anymore. The way nothing is ever their fault they should be 55-0 or however many damn games they played and 0.

FJA
06-12-2003, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
you can't have a contingency plan for every possible mistake though. shouldn't we have had a reliever up in the 7th in case bartolo imploded? in a two run game you're always two batters away from giving up the lead. i suppose its more frustrating when it happens in the 9th but the result is still the same. you can't be ready for everything. sometimes a pitcher just has to get it done.

But there's a huge difference between Bartolo giving up runs in the 7th and him doing it in the 9th. If he gives them up in the 7th, depending on how many outs there are, you have three innings for a pitcher to stop the bleeding--not just a one-out difficult bases loaded situation like Marte came into.

Also, you get to bat around the order at least once, and that's assuming no hits or walks. It's not just more frustrating when it happens in the 9th, it's damn near impossible (especially for this team) to come back in the course of one inning. A series win against the Giants could have been a huge turnaround with the Padres coming in this weekend. Now, who knows what happens to morale. (My guess is yet another dive.) When you are three outs away from a big win for a team as disappointing as the Sox have been, you have to take every precaution.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-12-2003, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
Jeremy, you are missing the basic point which is that Manuel failed to think ahead and have Marte ready to face Bonds in case Durham got on.

Actually Viva, you're missing jeremy's point. Manuel couldn't have known Colon and Marte were timebombs ready to explode. Manuel had a plausible excuse for keeping Colon in the game, thus Manuel is blameless for being wrong for the results which proved him wrong.

jeremy carries American pragmatism to its logical conclusion. The results are inconsequential, as long as you "thought" you were right.

Viva Magglio
06-12-2003, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Actually Viva, you're missing jeremy's point. Manuel couldn't have known Colon and Marte were timebombs ready to explode. Manuel had a plausible excuse for keeping Colon in the game, thus Manuel is blameless for being wrong for the results which proved him wrong.

jeremy carries American pragmatism to its logical conclusion. The results are inconsequential, as long as you "thought" you were right.

As Pat Kennedy once said, "Huh?"

Viva Magglio
06-12-2003, 11:08 PM
Actually, I now think I should reverse my thought on this issue. According to a Score caller, someone was at the game who jinxed us and caused us to lose:

:woo-woo

That's pretty bad, but I still blame JM.

spanishwhite
06-12-2003, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
obviously colon shouldn't have given him good pitches to hit but is that entirely manuel's fault? should manuel really have to send cooper out to the mound to remind bartolo he shouldn't challenge bonds when he's the tying run?

Well, that is an interesting point.

I would assume that Colon would have the experience and plain logic to think that, BUT.....

as the same point, you might have to remind Colon that striking out Bonds 4 times in a game is rare and that just because you struck him out 3 times before does not mean you will be successful for the 4th time.

I think Colon got arrogant. Who wouldn't? Bonds is a hall of famer who MIGHT, ill repeat MIGHT, challenge the all time hr record. Strike him out once and you have accomplished a feat.

I also see you referencing the hindsight bias. As a graduate student in general psychology, I have to say kudos, pero you
might be assuming that everybody here was not feeling quesy
when Colon challenged Bonds. I was nervous the first time. I was cursing him from then on. I think the majority didnt want to see Colon challenge Bonds. I think most were like you and expected him to give him nothing to hit. Thus, they expected no home run.

Vsahajpal
06-12-2003, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
Actually, I now think I should reverse my thought on this issue. According to a Score caller, someone was at the game who jinxed us and caused us to lose:

:woo-woo

That's pretty bad, but I still blame JM.

I thought I heard him in the first inning yelling during Durham's AB.


I agree with most posters, a reliever should've been up after Durham's hit. And should've been ready to come in after the HR to Bonds when the game was still in doubt.

jeremyb1
06-12-2003, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Actually Viva, you're missing jeremy's point. Manuel couldn't have known Colon and Marte were timebombs ready to explode. Manuel had a plausible excuse for keeping Colon in the game, thus Manuel is blameless for being wrong for the results which proved him wrong.

jeremy carries American pragmatism to its logical conclusion. The results are inconsequential, as long as you "thought" you were right.

not just if you thought you were right, if you actually were right. if i look both ways twice before crossing the street and there are no cars coming and then as i cross the street a drunk driver going 120 mph comes out of nowhere and kills me i was still right for crossing the street. i had no way of knowing the car was coming. my decision deserves to be evaluated before i crossed the street.

you can't say he screwed up by crossing the street because that car was coming just like you can't say "manuel screwed up by leaving colon in because bonds hit a home run". did he have greater reason to believe bonds would hit the home run than i would be hit by the car? certainly but its the same principle.

let me make myself clear here. i'm forced to play devil's adovacate to a certain extent here because of how polarized peoples' views are. if i'm manuel i have someone up in the pen after durham's single. before colon comes to the plate i send cooper out or olivo to the mound to discuss the game plan against bonds and make sure colon doesn't throw him anything too good to hit. manuel certainly didn't do things perfectly. that however, doesn't mean that he did everything wrong and assured that we would lose the game as many would make it seem.

manuel didn't have a way of knowing colon would foolishly try to challenge bonds or miss horribly with his pitch whichever was the case. he did not have reason to expect colon would implode in the 9th and give up 4 hits compared to the 2 or 3 hits he'd given up in the 8 previous innings. manuel could have had the pen up a little earlier. he could have had someone talk to colon about the game plan against bonds. however, by the exact same token, colon and marte could have made better pitches in the 9th.

FJA
06-12-2003, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
[B]not just if you thought you were right, if you actually were right. if i look both ways twice before crossing the street and there are no cars coming and then as i cross the street a drunk driver going 120 mph comes out of nowhere and kills me i was still right for crossing the street. i had no way of knowing the car was coming. my decision deserves to be evaluated before i crossed the street.

you can't say he screwed up by crossing the street because that car was coming just like you can't say "manuel screwed up by leaving colon in because bonds hit a home run". B]

To continue the analogy, I'm not so sure Manuel looked both ways.

Viva Magglio
06-12-2003, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by FJA
To continue the analogy, I'm not so sure Manuel looked both ways.

My point exactly. Manuel got caught with his pants down when he didn't have a contingency plan in place.

jeremyb1
06-12-2003, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
I agree with most posters, a reliever should've been up after Durham's hit. And should've been ready to come in after the HR to Bonds when the game was still in doubt.

i agree with that but bonds hit colon's first pitch for a home run meaning that there wasn't much time to warm up. i'll be the first to say that if manuel was capable of bringing in a reliever any sooner than he did, he screwed up royally but you know what? it doesn't really matter because no matter how bad manuel may have screwed up, it doesn't get us a win back or the season. so everyone can isolate the outcome of the game to one split second decision made by manuel if that helps you to sleep but it won't do any good. firing him won't do any good at this point. this game is lost as is the season most likely and on that note i'm done with this thread at least for the time being.

Viva Magglio
06-12-2003, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i agree with that but bonds hit colon's first pitch for a home run meaning that there wasn't much time to warm up. i'll be the first to say that if manuel was capable of bringing in a reliever any sooner than he did, he screwed up royally but you know what? it doesn't really matter because no matter how bad manuel may have screwed up, it doesn't get us a win back or the season. so everyone can isolate the outcome of the game to one split second decision made by manuel if that helps you to sleep but it won't do any good. firing him won't do any good at this point. this game is lost as is the season most likely and on that note i'm done with this thread at least for the time being.

This particular incident was only one more piece of evidence of why Manuel needs to be ousted. I already said that firing JM will not save the season, but it will show us the Sox fandom that this mediocrity is unacceptable.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-12-2003, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
As Pat Kennedy once said, "Huh?"

American pragmatism centers on the notion that reasoning is never wrong--regardless of the outcome--if it was based on sound logic and known facts.

Bonds' home run didn't happen until AFTER Manuel rightly noted Colon had pitched only 92 pitches and had struck out Bonds on three previous occasions. At the time Manuel left Colon in the game, he had a plausible reason for doing so. Thus Manuel can't be blamed for the result.

Hitler said he never would have invaded Russia had anybody told him the Soviets were capable of producing 30,000 tanks. Nazi Germany's entire Eastern campaign was just a good idea gone awry for imperfect knowledge--at least in the mind of a pragmatist. Same for Manuel leaving in Colon.

:gulp:

Viva Magglio
06-12-2003, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
American pragmatism centers on the notion that reasoning is never wrong--regardless of the outcome--if it was based on sound logic and known facts.

Bonds' home run didn't happen until AFTER Manuel rightly noted Colon had pitched only 92 pitches and had struck out Bonds on three previous occasions. At the time Manuel left Colon in the game, he had a plausible reason for doing so. Thus Manuel can't be blamed for the result.

Hitler said he never would have invaded Russia had anybody told him the Soviets were capable of producing 30,000 tanks. Nazi Germany's entire Eastern campaign was just a good idea gone awry for imperfect knowledge--at least in the mind of a pragmatist. Same for Manuel leaving in Colon.

:gulp:

Screw the philosophy crap...this is baseball dammit.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-12-2003, 11:52 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
Screw the philosophy crap...this is baseball dammit.

You're right, of course. This is baseball. Someday we'll hire a manager that knows what will happen before it happens and nobody here will be accused of basing their opinions on hindsight.

I imagine a manager would know his starter is in trouble from the moment he threw ball 1 to begin the ninth inning, getting both a lefty and righty up in the 'pen. That manager wouldn't know Bonds was going to hit that home run, but he certainly wouldn't have challenged the best hitter in baseball with a pitcher who was clearly showing signs of weakness either.

A REAL pragmatist would expect a manager of a major league ballclub to take those factors into consideration. Anything less smacks of simply making excuses for incompetence. Never confuse a pragmatist with an excuse maker.

pudge
06-12-2003, 11:52 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i agree with that but bonds hit colon's first pitch for a home run meaning that there wasn't much time to warm up. i'll be the first to say that if manuel was capable of bringing in a reliever any sooner than he did, he screwed up royally but you know what? it doesn't really matter because no matter how bad manuel may have screwed up, it doesn't get us a win back or the season. so everyone can isolate the outcome of the game to one split second decision made by manuel if that helps you to sleep but it won't do any good. firing him won't do any good at this point. this game is lost as is the season most likely and on that note i'm done with this thread at least for the time being.

jeremy, I'm glad you're always there for the other viewpoint, but I take some offense to you assuming that I was jumping on Manual in hindsight... I felt sick as soon as I saw Colon out in the 9th. Granted, I would have felt even more sick if I saw Koch out there. So what would I have done? Give Marte the 9th, as I have been wanting to do ALL season. Take a look: Durham would have been batting right-handed vs. Marte, and we all know Durham is not as good from the right side. Then, Marte would have the advantage over Bonds. Plus, giving the Giants a different look, after they had seen Colon all night, is the whole purpose of using a closer. The bottom line, nobody should be defending this team or the manager - they lose close games time and time and time again. At some point, it has to be somebody's fault.

As for my comment regarding Bonds facing Colon the 4th time - don't you know that batters adjust to pitchers during a game? Barry Bonds had seen a TON of Colon's pitches. Plus, Colon was probably not throwing as much gas as he had been earlier in the game. Of course I did not know Bonds would hit a homer, but the odds are stacked way against the pitcher when he faces one of the greatest hitters of all time the FOURTH time through.

WhiteSox = Life
06-13-2003, 12:31 AM
And, the White Sox manage to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory yet again.

On the Manuel argument: Colon was doing very well through the first 8 innings and didn't seem to be showing any signs of fatigue. Of course, it would just so happen that he would face the heart of the lineup in the 9th.

Now, here's where I was a bit nervous. I said to myself, "Bartolo, if you get any batter out tonight, get Durham out right here. You can challenge Bonds with nobody on base."

So, he started pitching to Durham, got in a hole, fought back and wound up giving a long single.

I don't want to say I knew Bonds was going to go deep, but there's a feeling that you get deep inside your gut that tells you, with the way the season has gone so far (and for the last couple years), why would be more appropos than Colon serving up a jack to Bonds?

First pitch - gone.

Now, onto Jerry after the exposition. With baseball the way it is today, you have so many specialized pitchers in the bullpen. Well, it's the 9th inning and it's a save situation. Your pitcher is going strong still, so you assume he's going to get through with it. Ah, the assumption. With a save situation, who do you want warming up in case - just in case your pitcher runs into a snag - in the bullpen? Your closer.

Who does Jerry have up? Nobody. He didn't even have Koch up. That's inexcusable. Baseball is a game of strategies, and Jerry decided he'd go with the straight assault, and wound up getting burned. I don't blame Jerry for letting one of your best pitchers, one of the better pitchers in baseball go for the whole game, but after a runner gets on, wouldn't the wise decision be to have someone warm up, then and there? Isn't it a good decision to have a contigency plan, if say, the current pitcher is in trouble?

I would imagine so. Instead, the bullpen gets up after the Bonds home run. The next three batters get on in a very short time, and Jerry decides to make a move, bringing in Marte.

Damaso Marte has been dependable the whole season and the best reliever for the Sox. It seems like a good move. However, with one out and the bases loaded, you're depending upon him to get out of the inning unscathed. I can't defend Marte for the roller he sent up there, but I wonder if he had enough time to warm up? Hmm... Sounds like another mistake made regarding the bullpen.

So, what fault is on Jerry? Well, you can argue he didn't have any, then you can argue he had a big hand in losing the game. Of course, it's all easier to explain in retrospect, but I maintain a wise managerial move in baseball would've been to have a reliever up after the first runner got on base in the 9th. If you don't need to use him, it's all good. But, a reliever was needed, and was brought in possibly early and in a very difficult situation.

Then, as you know, Aurilia hit a grand slam off of a non-existent slider and the rest is history, as they say.

Maybe if we're fortunate enough Jerry will soon be history. Unfortunately, this has only been the umpteenth time we've called for Jerry's firing after another game he was partially responsible for helping to blow. If you don't fire him because of tonight's game - where he might have been and might not have been responsible - then fire him for his lack of a baseball acumen.

Please???

:(:

Kilroy
06-13-2003, 03:24 AM
Sigh.

It's so easy to blame JM for not having someone up when Durham singled. Yet, Colon going into the 9th on 87 pitches is a no-brainer. He usually still has 30-40 pitches still in him, and we all know he is stronger later than he is earlier.

I was actually pissed off when he took Colon out. If he was gonna lose it, he should have lost it from the hill, not from the pine. Just my opinion.

I read in this thread about how Colon had "imploded" or had "lost it". Those comments are based on the results, not on how he was throwing the ball.

Facts:

He fell behind Durham, but worked a 3-2 count before the single.

Durham hits something gaudy like .357 against Colon for his career.

The pitch that Bonds hit out was not fat, but it was wheelhouse for Bonds. It was a low strike on the inner portion. After 3 k's, I would not have tempted fate, but Colon had totally and completely owned Bonds to that point. Bonds had not even had a hard hit foul ball off Colon, and in all 3 k's, both strike 2 and strike 3 were swinging. They replayed the 6 whiffs just before the dinger.

I thought the balk was a judgment call at best. Hawk and DJ didn't see it, and on the replay, DJ said it must have been because Colon didn't turn all the way towards 2nd base when he spun and looked in that direction. But he didn't sound convinced. I just read the balk rule, and I didn't see anything that indicated that he must turn a certain amount.

jeremyb1
06-13-2003, 04:10 AM
Originally posted by pudge
jeremy, I'm glad you're always there for the other viewpoint, but I take some offense to you assuming that I was jumping on Manual in hindsight... I felt sick as soon as I saw Colon out in the 9th. Granted, I would have felt even more sick if I saw Koch out there. So what would I have done? Give Marte the 9th, as I have been wanting to do ALL season. Take a look: Durham would have been batting right-handed vs. Marte, and we all know Durham is not as good from the right side. Then, Marte would have the advantage over Bonds. Plus, giving the Giants a different look, after they had seen Colon all night, is the whole purpose of using a closer. The bottom line, nobody should be defending this team or the manager - they lose close games time and time and time again. At some point, it has to be somebody's fault.

As for my comment regarding Bonds facing Colon the 4th time - don't you know that batters adjust to pitchers during a game? Barry Bonds had seen a TON of Colon's pitches. Plus, Colon was probably not throwing as much gas as he had been earlier in the game. Of course I did not know Bonds would hit a homer, but the odds are stacked way against the pitcher when he faces one of the greatest hitters of all time the FOURTH time through.

i don't know. i was a slightly weary about sticking with colon so long but considering that it was a save situation and koch is the closer he's the alternative in that situation. i have a fair amount of faith in koch these days even after the first game of this series but colon had thrown only 80 some odd pitches and he seemed like the safest bet to me. he seemed like a real safe bet.

i want to say that its not my intent to lump everyone together and assume that everyone that feels manuel screwed up is being irrational. unfortunately since there are so many people taking up the same argument, its hard for me to seperate everyone. i don't mean to accuse every single poster of relying on hindsight but given the staggering number that seem to have wanted to take the exact steps to prevent what went wrong in the game, i'm left to the conclusion that quite a few did.

the reason i'm glad i'm not a manager in baseball is that there will always be some fans that - whether they had special insight in a particular instance or were just lucky - wanted to make a different move which may have ended up avoiding disaster.

for instance, while there were some people that were concerned about colon prior to the 9th, there were probably just as many people concerned about bringing our closer in for the 9th. so if manuel stays with colon there are people that are livid because they had feared that decision to begin with and if he decides to go with koch who blows the game there are a ton of posts here from people upset because colon had only thrown 85 pitches and they just knew koch was going to blow the game.

even in the event that manuel made the best decision which in retrospect would've been to have a pitcher warming to start the 9th, and brought that pitcher in and he blew the game there would be people that said, colon just made a bad pitch to bonds, he still could've gotten out of the inning if manuel had allowed him to.

as for defending manuel, frankly i don't care at this point whether or not he's fired. i haven't been convinced he's a great manager for a season or two. however, i don't think he's as terrible as some would claim and i have a really hard time lumping the blame for a loss like this entirely on one decision. every close loss carries an opportunity where the manager could've made a different decision to win the game no matter how illogical so i get tired of every decision being manuel's fault.

obviously, everyone is incredibly frustrated after a loss like this. it seems to me as though a lot of people try to relieve that frustration by choosing one person - manuel - and attributing all their blame and hostility there. its not so easy for me to do that so i tend to take out my aggression on people i feel are jumping to conclusions too easily. like i said before, either way we still lost and this season is still headed down the toilett. there's nothing we can do which is why being a white sox fan is so frustrating.

alohafri
06-13-2003, 06:11 AM
I haven't been able to read all of the comments here becuz I'm pressed for time (have a bus & train to catch), but I was at the game last night and left just after Bonds' HR.

Then I hear that Colon was given a standing O when he was pulled. I know nobody on this board would do such a thing. The guy pitches a great game then gives up 7 runs in the 9th and for this he's given a standing O???!!!

***?

who are these morons at the game?

If he had given up those runs in the 1st inning then went on to pitch a no-hitter, would these dolts stand up and clap then?

yeesh!!

-Mrs. Aloha

Hangar18
06-13-2003, 08:27 AM
I dont even know where to begin with this.
My Cousin was with me at the game, and he was complaining
as soon as the 9th inning started and Bonds came up again.
He mentioned why would he face the guy a 4th time, said
it was disaster waiting to happen. Hes right. Ive played
Sega Baseball, and the quirk I learned from the Game, just like
in real baseball is that YOU DONT PITCH TO BONDS or GRIFFEY
Late Innings. those guys are dangerous late. Oh Well.
Manuel learned his lesson

Dadawg_77
06-13-2003, 09:05 AM
Hangar18 mention this but it was the fourth time thru the Giants lineup for Colon. Since a majority of the Giants have hardly seen Colon they are not sure what to suspect, so it gives Colon a nice advantage going into the game. The problem is this advantage starts to wear off around the fourth time around. Thus you should have a reliever up just for that fact, hell bring in Marte. I am not going to second guess bringing in Marte since he is the Sox best RP, just didn't have it last night.

ma-gaga
06-13-2003, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
it seems to me as though a lot of people try to relieve that frustration by choosing one person - manuel - and attributing all their blame and hostility there.


That's right! Fire the hitting coach! Fire the... huh, what?

:KW
"sounds good to me!"

hold2dibber
06-13-2003, 10:24 AM
I've read this entire thread from start to finish (a painful task, reliving last night's disaster) and I hereby declare Jeremy to be the winner. I'm sure there were some people out there who actually said at the time "Bring in Marte to face Bonds." But I think virtually everyone here is basing their analysis on hindsight. I can just imagine the uproar if Marte had given up the HR to Bonds. "Colon had struck him out 3 times already and had only thrown 90 pitches - JM should be drawn and quartered, tarred and feathered, etc., etc., etc."

Colon screwed up - he threw Bonds a meatball. He should have pitched VERY carefully to Bonds and not given him anything he could hit with authority. But he challenged him and lost. The blame lies with Colon, not JM.

Blueprint1
06-13-2003, 10:41 AM
I really dont care who you think the winner is. If you were here you could ask the person i watched the game with. I wanted Colon out of there. I said "Bonds is too good of a hitter he knows what Colon is going to come at him with" You dont have to believe me if you don't want to.

Jerko
06-13-2003, 10:44 AM
Everybody seems to have forgotten that Durham led off that inning and is batting (as posted here earlier) .357 against Colon and has a history of doing poorly while batting right handed. Manuel overlooked that just so Colon/Bonds could happen again and he got burned. I guarantee the fact that JM was in the papers 2 or 3 weeks ago bragging that he has finally 'learned' that Colon usually gets better as the game goes on is the reason that he lets him go for complete games EVERY tme out now. I guess being in the same division his entire career before the middle of last year didn't give JM any hints on what kind of pitcher Colon is. I usually do agree with letting the starter start the 9th if he is doing well and has a low pitch count, but Durham got overlooked and that's what bit this team in the ass last night. Manuel of all people should know Durham can't hit right handed, he was his manager for 6 freakin years. That's why people get so frustrated with JM, he gets these ideas in his head and ignores physical facts that actually have happened. He didn't know Durham bats .357 vs. Colon? He SAW 95% OF THOSE AT BATS IN PERSON!!!!!!!! He does not know that Durham can't hit right handed? HE LIVED THROUGH IT FOR 5 PLUS YEARS!!!!!!!!!! He is either really, really, really stupid or just does not care enough about winning. It seems he is just trying to show everyone how 'smart' he is even though every time he tries that the Sox lose. Arrogant jerk. Maybe that's where Mark (not my fault) Buehrle gets it from.

maurice
06-13-2003, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I'm sure there were some people out there who actually said at the time "Bring in Marte to face Bonds."

Actually, at the time, I said "walk Bonds and warm up Marte." In fact, before the inning started, I said that the only way I'd let Colon pitch to Bonds is if he gets Durham out. Instead, Durham scalds the ball for a long single -- not a good sign.

Look, anyone would let Colon start the inning, and many managers would have no one up in the pen during Durham's AB. OTOH, I'm not sure there is one other manager in all of baseball who would pitch to Bonds with a runner on and not go to the pen until the bases were loaded with the winning run on third base. You surely can count such idiots on one hand. It doesn't even matter whether first base is open. Durham's run meant nothing anyway, so it doesn't matter if you move him into scoring position. There's a reason Bonds has a .500ish OBP. Managers refuse to let him beat them with the game on the line. Pitching to Bonds in that situation is like refusing to doubleteam Jordan with a two-point lead and 3 seconds on the clock. He's just that good.

I generally agree with Jeremy on the hindsight bias issue, but (as he recognizes) it doesn't apply to many posters in this thread. I've had two main problems with JM during his tenure here: (1) he has no apparent bullpen philosphy; and (2) he lies to players regarding their roles on the team. Number one killed us last night.

pudge
06-13-2003, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1


obviously, everyone is incredibly frustrated after a loss like this. it seems to me as though a lot of people try to relieve that frustration by choosing one person - manuel - and attributing all their blame and hostility there. its not so easy for me to do that so i tend to take out my aggression on people i feel are jumping to conclusions too easily. like i said before, either way we still lost and this season is still headed down the toilett. there's nothing we can do which is why being a white sox fan is so frustrating.

Very well said, and I always do appreciate your rational viewpoint. The reason I personally started this thread is because the Sox have been a huge failure at winning tight games for the past several seasons, and I really believe those are the games when a manager can make a difference. Yes, a lot of blame must lie with the players as well, and certainly our terrible offense has hurt the team this season, but Manual has always been great at winning 14-2 games and losing 3-2 games. I just think over history, he has not done his job. And so every time we blow another close one, it just adds up against him.

voodoochile
06-13-2003, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by alohafri
I haven't been able to read all of the comments here becuz I'm pressed for time (have a bus & train to catch), but I was at the game last night and left just after Bonds' HR.

Then I hear that Colon was given a standing O when he was pulled. I know nobody on this board would do such a thing. The guy pitches a great game then gives up 7 runs in the 9th and for this he's given a standing O???!!!

***?

who are these morons at the game?

If he had given up those runs in the 1st inning then went on to pitch a no-hitter, would these dolts stand up and clap then?

yeesh!!

-Mrs. Aloha

Want to give my $0.02, and needed a place to start, so I thought I'd reply to you...

When Colon was pulled the score was tied. Yes all 7 of those runs were his, but the final 3 scored when Marte gave up the GS. I think the fans were more saying thanks for giving it your all and looking like an ace. We understand you got tired and got beat, but it wasn't for lack of trying...

Coupple of other points. In the 6th inning, the Giants had a man on second with Bonds coming to the plate. Things came to a stop and then Cooper came out to the mound. There was no reason for Coop to come out at that point, so I would bet good money that JM called for the IBB and Colon said, "No." Coop comes out to the mound and I think Colon told him that if they wanted to walk Bonds they should take him out. Just my impression. I obviously don't have a crystal ball or a body mike hooked up to any of them. It just seemed weird. Colon responded by striking Bonds out.

Now comes the 9th. I doubt JM even tried to call for the IBB and Colon went right after Bonds with the same pitch he struck him out the time before - he put it over the middle of the plate instead of the outer half and Bonds hit the ball a mile. That's baseball.

I agree that JM should have had someone warming up, just to be safe, especially after the guy after Bonds reached base, but I don't disagree with the idea of letting Colon try and finish the game. JM screwed up, but Colon was cruising.

Bonds doesn't give a rats ass who is on the mound. He hits everybody. Marte struck him out on Tuesday, Colon struck him out 3 times yesterday. Bonds won the war. It was a good series, too bad things didn't go our way. Sometimes when you play good teams with great players that happens. Let's get at it with the Padres and go from there...

Foulke You
06-13-2003, 12:59 PM
Ok, I've read the thread and I would like to offer up my 2 cents. It echoes some of the sentiments before but I have a different beef with Manuel. It seems the main complaint against JM is the Bonds HR. In my mind, it has nothing to do with Bonds. I've read the arguments about the 4th time around but it amounts to great pitcher vs. great hitter. Great pitcher won the first 3 times but the great hitter beat the great pitcher on the last one and we have ourselves a TIE ballgame.

This is the big sticking point with me. The game was TIED. Bonds didn't win the game, he tied it. We still had a chance to win the game in the bottom of the 9th inning or extra innings if it was still tied. After the Bonds HR, Marte should have came into the game immediately to work with the bases empty and 0 outs in a hold situation.

But what is this? Manuel had NO ACTIVITY in the bullpen. I noticed this as soon as the inning started. No activity. NONE. ZERO. Many other games this year JM usually has someone warming up but not last night. So Gordon and Marte scramble to get warmed up. By the time Marte who clearly wasn't warm yet steps into the game he gets dropped into the Jerry Manuel meat grinder with the bags loaded and 1 out. Grand Slam. Game Over. Sox fans are left to cry in their beer as usual pondering what the f*** we did to deserve this team and this manager.

hold2dibber
06-13-2003, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
Ok, I've read the thread and I would like to offer up my 2 cents. It echoes some of the sentiments before but I have a different beef with Manuel. It seems the main complaint against JM is the Bonds HR. In my mind, it has nothing to do with Bonds. I've read the arguments about the 4th time around but it amounts to great pitcher vs. great hitter. Great pitcher won the first 3 times but the great hitter beat the great pitcher on the last one and we have ourselves a TIE ballgame.

This is the big sticking point with me. The game was TIED. Bonds didn't win the game, he tied it. We still had a chance to win the game in the bottom of the 9th inning or extra innings if it was still tied. After the Bonds HR, Marte should have came into the game immediately to work with the bases empty and 0 outs in a hold situation.

But what is this? Manuel had NO ACTIVITY in the bullpen. I noticed this as soon as the inning started. No activity. NONE. ZERO. Many other games this year JM usually has someone warming up but not last night. So Gordon and Marte scramble to get warmed up. By the time Marte who clearly wasn't warm yet steps into the game he gets dropped into the Jerry Manuel meat grinder with the bags loaded and 1 out. Grand Slam. Game Over. Sox fans are left to cry in their beer as usual pondering what the f*** we did to deserve this team and this manager.

I agree whole-heartedly. I don't blame Manuel for the Bonds homer; I blame Colon. I do blame Manuel for the rest of the inning.

valposoxfan
06-13-2003, 04:00 PM
Exactly.

TornLabrum
06-14-2003, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
the pen was up immediately after bonds' home run.

Jeremy, I was at the game. The pen was not up immediately after the home run. It took another hit for them to start stirring.

TornLabrum
06-14-2003, 08:39 AM
I purposely avoided reading this thread until after I wrote my column this week, which I completed about an hour ago.

Here's a preview of what I had to say:

1) The Sox were protecting a 2-run lead. You get somebody warming up in case Colon goes south in the 9th.

2) Durham led off by hitting a rope. I was at the game. I immedieatly yelld, "Get him out of there, Jerry!" Then I checked the bullpen. No action.

3) I called for Manuel to walk Bonds his third AB. I did it again this time. I knew something bad was going to happen. In my column I willI compare Manuel's having Colon pitching to Bonds to taunting a coiled rattlesnake.

4) Even after the HR to Bonds, Manuel still didn't have anyone warming up.

The guy sitting in front of me was a Giants fan. He couldn't believe two things: that Manuel had no one warming up, and that he let Colon pitch to Bonds in a 9th inning game situation. I had one reply to both statements. "Manuel is an idiot." I then said the only thing you need to know when our manager makes any decision is that Manuel is an idiot.

I knew what was going to happen before it happened. Maybe that's because I've been watching this team for 48 years now and I know it's pre-ordained. Or maybe it's because I have more baseball sense than the guy out there who is managing. That's not bragging on my part. It's a slam on the manager because I know how little baseball sense I have.