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chisox56
06-11-2003, 11:15 PM
What the heck is wrong with this guy. His stats were steadily increasing the last few years and now this year he is horrendous. He is going to have to start hitting if the sox are going to catch minnesota and salvage this season.

xil357
06-12-2003, 07:45 AM
Three possibilities:

1. He is injured and is trying to play through it.
2. He sucks and his numbers during the 1st half of last season were an aberration.
3. He has suffered a serious case of rectal-cranial inversion (head up his arse) since the 2002 All-Star game.
4. He is becoming the hitting equivalent of James Baldwin -- can't put together a great full season but sucks for one half and hits lights out for the other.

Paulie needs to be put on the DL -- and then do a rehab stint in the minors -- to figure out which of these is the problem.

Salvaging the season is still possible, but it is going to get more difficult the longer they wait (gee, I'm the master of the obvious). Beating the Giants tonight to get 2 out of 3 (that would be a good) and then sweeping the Padres to start an extended tear certainly would be a good start.

Jjav829
06-12-2003, 08:01 AM
I know I'm one of the few left, but I'm not ready to give up on Paul Konerko just yet. I don't know why hes struggling so bad, or what its going to take for him to snap out of this slump. I laugh at the people who are already saying hes "done" whatever the hell they mean by that. This is not the real Paul Konerko. Sure, he may have been overpayed but he is still a much better player than this. Projecting his stats at this rate, he would finish with somewhere around 9 HR's and 45 RBI. That is far far below his numbers the past 4 years.

1999: 24 HR 81 RBI
2000: 21 HR 97 RBI
2001: 32 HR 99 RBI
2002: 27 HR 104 RBI

This is obviously not the real Paul Konerko we are seeing. I'll give him the benefit of a year since he was an all star last year, but if this continues the entire year then something may have to be done.

SoxxoS
06-12-2003, 08:15 AM
I'm very concerned with this hip injury everyone is "supposed" to know about.

34 Inch Stick
06-12-2003, 09:25 AM
I'm with you J. We can't get rid of him if we want to anyway so let's hope he gets better.

Hangar18
06-12-2003, 09:28 AM
Hes Injured. and playing thru it. And not being able to
play well thru it for that matter.

hold2dibber
06-12-2003, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Hes Injured. and playing thru it. And not being able to
play well thru it for that matter.

Can someone please offer some actual proof that PK is hurt? Has it been reported anywhere that he is hurt (other than on this site)? Anyone?

gosox41
06-12-2003, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Hes Injured. and playing thru it. And not being able to
play well thru it for that matter.


Paul himself claims to be "healthy as a horse." If he is legitimately injured, the fact that we know it on this website probably means all the other teams know it to so there's no sense in hiding it. Also, doesn't Paul realize he is hurting the team by trying to play through pain? If the injury is that bad, go on the DL and stopping being so damn selfish. He's obviously not productive playing injured. He's no Michael Jordan who can still do great things when not at 100%.


Bob

PaleHoseGeorge
06-12-2003, 06:30 PM
I can think of only two good reasons Konerko hasn't landed on the DL.

1.) He truly is not hurt and simply sucks as a ballplayer, or

2.) He truly is hurt but the nature of the injury (a degenerative hip condition) cannot be healed through rest. In fact, going on the DL only confirms that his baseball career is over.

Whether the correct answer is #1 or #2, the Sox are big losers for signing this guy for big numbers last winter.

SoxxoS
06-12-2003, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Whether the correct answer is #1 or #2, the Sox are big losers for signing this guy for big numbers last winter.

Shocking.

RKMeibalane
06-12-2003, 09:26 PM
This situation with Konerko is another reason why I have to question the competence of Sox managment. It should be obvious by now that something isn't right with him, so the Sox need to do something about this. Placing Konerko on the disabled list is the most reasonable course of action. As PHG, that probably means his career is over.

If that's the case, then it's a shame that his baseball career has to end before its time. However, the Sox organization is bigger than one man, and Reinsdorf and Williams cannot afford to sit around waiting for their eight-million-dollar man to magically start hitting again. I don't know the specifics of the insurance policy that would take effect if his career does end, but I think it's time that Sox brass had a long, hard discussion about this. Of course, these are the White Sox, and they rarely do what they're supposed to.

ChiSox14305635
06-12-2003, 10:15 PM
Whatever the reason, I hope he can bounce back. This is the worst showing I've seen from this club that I can remember. No effort whatsoever.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-12-2003, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox14305635
Whatever the reason, I hope he can bounce back. This is the worst showing I've seen from this club that I can remember. No effort whatsoever.

Well obviously all of us "hope" he bounces back. Unfortunately, the fact he is not already on the DL and it's the middle of June and he is still sucking big-time points to far worse probabilities: Konerko isn't coming back because going on the DL does NOTHING to improve his condition.

I said several weeks ago we would know if Konerko was through by the all-star break. It's now mid-June and he is looking more and more like a Thanksgiving turkey with a thermometer sticking out of his chest.

He's cooked. Put a fork in him.

cheeses_h_rice
06-12-2003, 10:58 PM
Does anyone have info about if Konerko does have some sort of sickness that can't be cured with r&r? He's pretty young to be suffering from a degenerative bone disease, right?

PaleHoseGeorge
06-12-2003, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
Does anyone have info about if Konerko does have some sort of sickness that can't be cured with r&r? He's pretty young to be suffering from a degenerative bone disease, right?

We've been dancing around this subject for months, years even. It's either the worst gossip or the worst kept secret in baseball.

Personally, I believe it is a degenerative hip condition. The Sox have absolutely NO reason to disclose the nature of any type of degenerative problem. There is no treatment, so there is no purpose to "spinning" his lousy performance.

It would be the easiest thing in the world for the Sox to invent an illness and send Konerko to the DL using a false alibi. However R&R isn't going to help Konerko regain his hitting form and in fact might make it worse since he'll lose what little timing he currently possesses. In other words, there is no upside to telling a lie.

That's why I think its a degenerative condition. It's actually better for the Sox to just keep running Konerko out there than to stick him on the DL and make his problems even worse.

Of course he may just flat-out suck. If that's the case, the Sox are only marginally better off. He's been sucking far too long and far too badly to ever be worth the salary the team is paying him.

dougs78
06-13-2003, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
We've been dancing around this subject for months, years even. It's either the worst gossip or the worst kept secret in baseball.

Personally, I believe it is a degenerative hip condition. The Sox have absolutely NO reason to disclose the nature of any type of degenerative problem. There is no treatment, so there is no purpose to "spinning" his lousy performance.

It would be the easiest thing in the world for the Sox to invent an illness and send Konerko to the DL using a false alibi. However R&R isn't going to help Konerko regain his hitting form and in fact might make it worse since he'll lose what little timing he currently possesses. In other words, there is no upside to telling a lie.

That's why I think its a degenerative condition. It's actually better for the Sox to just keep running Konerko out there than to stick him on the DL and make his problems even worse.

Of course he may just flat-out suck. If that's the case, the Sox are only marginally better off. He's been sucking far too long and far too badly to ever be worth the salary the team is paying him.

I agree that what you are saying could be true. That is IF he has this degenerative condition which has suddely rendered him useless, (and no insurance....) then we'd see what we are seeing, which is him continuing to play. However I truly don't think this is the most likely answer to the question of "why does Paul Konerko suck?"

I think its at least equally possible that he is just in an utterly horrendous slump that he will someday shake out of. I think his track record shows that he is very prone to bad slumps and hot streaks, it just happens that this slump is extra long. On the flip side I would also point out that his hot streak last year, covered 3-4 months. The bottom line is that I still think its possible that hes going to snap back.

I'm not an orthopedist, nor an expert on the physics of a baseball swing, but I wonder how a hip condition (assuming it exists) could have such a dramatic effect on his stats in such a short amount of time. If anything I would assume you would see signs of him limping when running, wincing in pain when swinging, getting slower than he already is in running to first, or even a change in the way his hips come through on a swing. Perhaps someone who has seen many games this year could comment on these and whether they have noticed anything along those lines.

Foulke You
06-13-2003, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by dougs78
If anything I would assume you would see signs of him limping when running, wincing in pain when swinging, getting slower than he already is in running to first, or even a change in the way his hips come through on a swing. Perhaps someone who has seen many games this year could comment on these and whether they have noticed anything along those lines.

Good observation doug78 and the answer is Paul Konerko's swing is not any different than last year except he isn't hitting the ball. He is still slow as ever running to first base but he isn't limping.

A degenerative hip condition ended Albert Belle's career and in his last games, you could really tell that Albert was in a lot of pain. He was gimpy when he ran and he couldn't really play the field. He winced when swinging really hard. I don't see Konerko in pain. I don't see him limping or wincing in pain when he swings. I think we would know if he had this condition. I also think Sox beat reporters like Joe Cowley of the Southtown and Bruce Levine of ESPN 1000 would be all over a story like that if it were true. I believe it is White Sox internet rumor and that is it. We refuse to believe the Konerko from the past four years can really be hitting this poorly without being hurt.

What I see is a good hitter who is mired in a terrible slump and has lost all of his confidence. Konerko was one of the best fastball hitters in the AL the last few years, turning on pitches that are blown by many other hitters. Paulie is totally psyched out at the plate right now. He is overmatched before he even steps up there. The fastballs he once hit out of the park are now routine double play grounders. Sliders and curves are baffling him. I really believe he is going to snap out of this at some point. He just needs to string together a few good games to get his confidence back which is something he has been unable to do. It is unfortunate that his struggles have had an adverse effect on the entire Sox offense. Konerko is an important cog in the offense and right now that cog isn't working and is effecting the entire machine.

gosox41
06-13-2003, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
We've been dancing around this subject for months, years even. It's either the worst gossip or the worst kept secret in baseball.

Personally, I believe it is a degenerative hip condition. The Sox have absolutely NO reason to disclose the nature of any type of degenerative problem. There is no treatment, so there is no purpose to "spinning" his lousy performance.

It would be the easiest thing in the world for the Sox to invent an illness and send Konerko to the DL using a false alibi. However R&R isn't going to help Konerko regain his hitting form and in fact might make it worse since he'll lose what little timing he currently possesses. In other words, there is no upside to telling a lie.

That's why I think its a degenerative condition. It's actually better for the Sox to just keep running Konerko out there than to stick him on the DL and make his problems even worse.

Of course he may just flat-out suck. If that's the case, the Sox are only marginally better off. He's been sucking far too long and far too badly to ever be worth the salary the team is paying him.

To me, the worst thing the Sox can do is to keep running PK out there. The offense is struggling too much to keep a .190 hitter in the line up. He adds no value to the team.

Also, if the Sox knew he had a degenerative hip condition, why did they sign him to a contract extension? Odds are preexisting injuries aren't insured anymore. Plus JR has never been the type to take a risk on injury prone players (ie signing pitchers to long term deals.)

Bob

dougs78
08-02-2003, 08:42 AM
I just found this old thread and found it interesting in light of PK's recent hot streak.

Can we all agree now that the "degenerative" hip condition was not at fault for his huge slump? That it has not affected his bat speed (415 ft homer yesterday)? I personally am so glad to see him back. I haven't watched any of the games, but the box scores speak for themselves.

Paulwny
08-02-2003, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by dougs78
I just found this old thread and found it interesting in light of PK's recent hot streak.

Can we all agree now that the "degenerative" hip condition was not at fault for his huge slump? That it has not affected his bat speed (415 ft homer yesterday)? I personally am so glad to see him back. I haven't watched any of the games, but the box scores speak for themselves.

I'm glad his hitting has returned.
I still look at his failure to request a trip to aaa to get his swing back as a "me attitude" which didn't help this team in the first half of the season.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-02-2003, 08:59 AM
Who wouldn't be happy that he is hitting? When he manages to do it for an entire season he'll have earned his boxcar salary. Until then...

FanOf14
08-02-2003, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny
I'm glad his hitting has returned.
I still look at his failure to request a trip to aaa to get his swing back as a "me attitude" which didn't help this team in the first half of the season.

How many players would? Would Thomas have last year when he was doing so poorly while recovering? Aside from that, the whole offensive side of the team sucked the first half (save for a few weeks here and there for a player here and there).

PaleHoseGeorge
08-02-2003, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by FanOf14
How many players would? Would Thomas have last year when he was doing so poorly while recovering? Aside from that, the whole offensive side of the team sucked the first half (save for a few weeks here and there for a player here and there).

Ah yes, but then it wasn't Thomas who was swearing up and down that he was HEALTHY, was it? That was Konerko claiming nothing was wrong. A perfectly healthy firstbasemen who spends over 3 months trying to get his batting average over .200 while simultaneously refusing a AAA assignment is selfish. End of story.

As for the entire offense sucking, no argument here. It's obvious that "playing everyone" was part of Manuel's plan. Somebody needs to remind him that spring training ends in March.

FanOf14
08-02-2003, 10:07 AM
What does that have to with the price of dougnuts? Thomas was not doing well, who the hell cares why, that wasn't the point of the post was it? No offense George, but most everything else you post with I either agree with or I can see where you are coming from, but with your dislike of Konerko since I've been here (even the begining of 2002) really leads me to take what you say about him with a grain of salt.

dougs78
08-02-2003, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Who wouldn't be happy that he is hitting? When he manages to do it for an entire season he'll have earned his boxcar salary. Until then...


I actually doubt you'll ever have Konerko hot for an entire season. He is what he is: A streaky hitter. I'm more than willing to live with that as long as the overall production is where it has been last year and years previous. The thing I'm most happy about is that the stroke is back and it was not a physical problem.

As for him not going to AAA, I'm not really sure that was realistic. Was Pat Burrell supposed to go to the minors? Tejada earlier this season? There may be a fine line, but I don't think its selfish for a proven player not to go the minors when they are in a slump.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-02-2003, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by FanOf14
What does that have to with the price of dougnuts? He was not doing well, who the hell cares why? No offense George, but most everything else you post with I either agree with or I can see where you are coming from, but with your dislike of him since I've been here (even the begining of 2002) really leads me to take what you say about him with a grain of salt.

Perhaps I'm being too obtuse. The point is that LOTS OF BALLPLAYERS can hit sub-.200 and play first base while also being perfectly healthy--especially across three months of the season. It's the team's responsibility for finding ballplayers who can do a bit more than that. At least if he was hurt (like Thomas in '02), the argument can be made that the injury is still healing and improvement based on that healing is forthcoming. The Sox had NO SUCH REASONABLE EXPECTATION of this from Konerko. It was Konerko himself who swore he was healthy.

Of course the Sox would have gladly sent Konerko to Charlotte. Both Daubach and Thomas were hitting plenty well enough to fill whatever role Konerko might be needed for. (See my point in the paragraph above.) So why didn't the Sox send Konerko to Charlotte? Because they couldn't. Konerko had to volunteer for such an assignment and he refused. That's what makes him selfish.

RKMeibalane
08-02-2003, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by FanOf14
How many players would? Would Thomas have last year when he was doing so poorly while recovering? Aside from that, the whole offensive side of the team sucked the first half (save for a few weeks here and there for a player here and there).

These are Frank's numbers from the first half of 2002:

AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HPB SO AVG OBP SLG OPS
293 42 70 15 1 14 54 41 4 66 .239 .333 .440 .773

These are Konerko's numbers from the first half of this season:

AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO AVG OBP SLG OPS
233 19 46 9 0 5 22 21 2 25 .197 .267 .300 .567

There is no comparison between those numbers, folks. Frank was nowhere near as bad as Konerko was. He was struggling, yet, but he was still usable. The Sox couldn't even afford to put Konerko in the lineup everyday. People like to talk about certain players being automatic outs in the lineup. That's what Konerko was for the entire first half.

soxtalker
08-02-2003, 10:59 AM
I don't recall Konerko ever saying much when asked about the motivation for not accepting an assignment to the minors -- maybe one or two "standard" phrases. But I wondered at the time if there wasn't something that he couldn't readily tell the media, but that a player would understand. Konerko never struck me as a selfish player or one with a big ego, so I am wondering if we simply aren't seeing the potential ramifications of going down to the minors. Would this give him less alternatives in the future, for example?

Paulwny
08-02-2003, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by FanOf14
How many players would? Would Thomas have last year when he was doing so poorly while recovering? Aside from that, the whole offensive side of the team sucked the first half (save for a few weeks here and there for a player here and there).

Then he shouldn't have made the following statement, that's what pisses me off. He talks the talk, but going to aaa to get his swing back wasn't meaningful.

7/13/03
From the Sun Times:
"Throw everything else out the window and do meaningful things to help the team, which you should be trying to do anyway,'' Konerko said, outlining his new attitude. "But even more so in my case because it's not like I'm trying to go after the batting crown or anything.''

joecrede
08-02-2003, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
I'm glad his hitting has returned.
I still look at his failure to request a trip to aaa to get his swing back as a "me attitude" which didn't help this team in the first half of the season.

Originally posted by FanOf14
How many players would?

Can't put a number on that, but a true team leader would.

BKozi
08-02-2003, 06:42 PM
I probably shouldn't get involved in this because I've always liked Paulie and I'll probably get ripped for this one. But what I'm gettting out of this is that Konerko was not a "team player" because he didn't accept a trip down to AAA. In a perfect world, maybe he should have gone down. But saying that a "true team leader" would is not accurate.

First off, the "team leader" role isn't given to everybody. The team leaders of the Sox as I see it are Thomas, Maggs, Valentin, and Buehrle in that order. It's not just numbers that makes you a leader, it's the respect that you've earned from your teammates. I don't think that Konerko is in that category, not because he is unliked or disrespected, but because he doesn't have the personality of a leader yet. That needs to develop over time.

Secondly, I personally don't recall of any former all-stars who have been in the majors full time for 4+ years voluntarily accepting a trip down to AAA unless they had a documented (not speculated) injury. I'm not saying it hasn't happened and I'm sure that people can come up with names, but I don't recall any. If you're in the majors, you got there because you have talent and you believe in your skills. The day you quit believing in your skills (such as voluntarily accepting a trip down to the minors) is the day that you should hang it up. If you don't believe that you are going to get a hit that next at bat, you're in the wrong business.

Finally, I don't think having him on the team necessarily hurt us. There wasn't really anybody in the minors at the time ready to step up who's place Paul was taking. Maybe his lack of hitting during that time led to a few losses, but I do remember one pretty important home run against the Twinkies during that stretch.

Again, I'm not saying that he shouldn't have gone down, I'm just saying that I understand why he didn't and I don't blame him. Regardless, I'm glad to have him back to his all-star form to end the season.

mack10zie
08-02-2003, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
We've been dancing around this subject for months, years even. It's either the worst gossip or the worst kept secret in baseball.

Personally, I believe it is a degenerative hip condition. The Sox have absolutely NO reason to disclose the nature of any type of degenerative problem. There is no treatment, so there is no purpose to "spinning" his lousy performance.

It would be the easiest thing in the world for the Sox to invent an illness and send Konerko to the DL using a false alibi. However R&R isn't going to help Konerko regain his hitting form and in fact might make it worse since he'll lose what little timing he currently possesses. In other words, there is no upside to telling a lie.

That's why I think its a degenerative condition. It's actually better for the Sox to just keep running Konerko out there than to stick him on the DL and make his problems even worse.

Of course he may just flat-out suck. If that's the case, the Sox are only marginally better off. He's been sucking far too long and far too badly to ever be worth the salary the team is paying him.

I feel as if I can personally speak on this with some degree of credibility. I have a degenerative knee condition in my knees, and there ARE in fact things that I can do that makes my knees better. For example, I recently had surgery on both of my knees that has helped people with the same condition that I have, although I don't know if it is working for me. My case may be a little different, as I basically had to quit the sports I loved (basketball and football) at about the age of 13 because my doctors simply told me that I couldn't really afford to play anymore. But, although my knees are still horrible, I have met people with my same condition who have had my surgery who have gone on to do things like run in marathons and compete in Iron Man competitions and things like that without pain. Degenerative conditions are not, by nature, unfixable, as people seem to assume. I believe that if PK was being affected by a hip condition, that there would be some sort of surgery that would at least possibly make things better that he would get, and if he was injured he would most definately go on the DL and do some sort of hip rehab, because even degenerative conditions can be rehabed. I don't know for sure, but I doubt his struggles were attributable to any hip condition, he was simply struggling. But now that he's hitting, this injury stuff has seemed to be silenced, at least for now.

Paulwny
08-03-2003, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by BKozi


Secondly, I personally don't recall of any former all-stars who have been in the majors full time for 4+ years voluntarily accepting a trip down to AAA unless they had a documented (not speculated) injury stretch.



I agree, I don't recall any players going to AAA.
Konerko's choice is his business, his career, however, he should have shut-up instead of saying "Throw everything else out the window and do meaningful things to help the team, which you should be trying to do anyway,'' Konerko said, outlining his new attitude. "But even more so in my case because it's not like I'm trying to go after the batting crown or anything.''

PaleHoseGeorge
08-03-2003, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny
I agree, I don't recall any players going to AAA.
Konerko's choice is his business, his career, however, he should have shut-up instead of saying "Throw everything else out the window and do meaningful things to help the team, which you should be trying to do anyway,'' Konerko said, outlining his new attitude. "But even more so in my case because it's not like I'm trying to go after the batting crown or anything.''

And of course this is the guy everyone confuses with a team leader. He is sooooo indispensable to us. Sorry folks, I'm not buying it. Konerko is just one more ****-for-brains earning what he can while he can still earn it.

I evaluate Konerko no differently than any other ballplayer on the Sox.

1. How much does his production help the club?
2. How much does he cost the team (monetary and otherwise) for that production?
3. How replaceable is he?

Konerko is a loser on all three.

dougs78
08-03-2003, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Konerko is just one more ****-for-brains earning what he can while he can still earn it.

George, we are all entitled to our opinions. Although, with that comment you just made I just lost some respect for yours. That is perhaps the most unnecessarily derogative comment I have ever read on this board. I'm sorry to hear you have such a hatred for Paul Konerko.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-03-2003, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by dougs78
George, we are all entitled to our opinions. Although, with that comment you just made I just lost some respect for yours. That is perhaps the most unnecessarily derogative comment I have ever read on this board. I'm sorry to hear you have such a hatred for Paul Konerko.

Sorry, but if the shoe fits...

Let's place an objective standard on how we evaluate the value of major league ballplayers. If you, or anyone else, think Paul Konerko deserves some sort of special credit for what he brings to the Chicago White Sox, you're going to have to navigate past what HE HIMSELF has said and what HE HIMSELF has done.

I don't envy the task ahead of you.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-03-2003, 10:54 AM
I'm sorry... I honestly don't mean to pile on with a second post on this subject. However please allow me to clarify one last point from my earlier post.

I wrote, "Konerko is just ONE MORE ****-for-brains earning what he can while he can still earn it. (My emphasis added.)

I'm not singling out Konerko at all. To the contrary, I'm lumping him in with everyone else who earns their living playing major league baseball. Obviously there are intelligent ballplayers (Cone and Glavine come to mind) and awful human beings masquerading as ballplayers (Barry Bonds, to name just one). I don't feel Paul Konerko deserves to be evaluated any differently than anybody else playing in the Show. I base this on what Konerko HAS SAID and what Konerko HAS DONE-- nothing more.

That's the objective standard I'm talking about.

BKozi
08-03-2003, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I'm sorry... I honestly don't mean to pile on with a second post on this subject. However please allow me to clarify one last point from my earlier post.

I wrote, "Konerko is just ONE MORE ****-for-brains earning what he can while he can still earn it. (My emphasis added.)

I'm not singling out Konerko at all. To the contrary, I'm lumping him in with everyone else who earns their living playing major league baseball. Obviously there are intelligent ballplayers (Cone and Glavine come to mind) and awful human beings masquerading as ballplayers (Barry Bonds, to name just one). I don't feel Paul Konerko deserves to be evaluated any differently than anybody else playing in the Show. I base this on what Konerko HAS SAID and what Konerko HAS DONE-- nothing more.

That's the objective standard I'm talking about.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't understand your post at all. How many major league players do you think are out there who would play baseball for free? They just play because they love the game and hey, if they had to sit on the bench for the rest of the season to help the team, they would volunteer? 0, that's how many. Why do you even care about baseball then? You are correct, these guys are there to make a living. Their purpose in life is not to make you happy or feel better about yourself. Don't hold it against Konerko because you have a problem with the fact that he wants to earn as much money as he can in the 15-20 years that he will have in the majors. And how does being "intelligent" make a player's reason for being there any different? By your logic, Glavine should have given back most of that lofty contract that he got from the Mets because of the crappy season he's been having this year. I don't see that as "intelligent" though.

As I stated earlier, Konerko probably should have accepted the trip to the minors, but I can understand why he didn't. But if you want to signal out Konerko for the reasons you have stated above, you are signaling out every single major league player, not just the "awful human beings". Give up on the majors and try watching some college baseball instead, at least they aren't playing for money.

dougs78
08-03-2003, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I'm sorry... I honestly don't mean to pile on with a second post on this subject. However please allow me to clarify one last point from my earlier post.

I wrote, "Konerko is just ONE MORE ****-for-brains earning what he can while he can still earn it. (My emphasis added.)

I'm not singling out Konerko at all. To the contrary, I'm lumping him in with everyone else who earns their living playing major league baseball. Obviously there are intelligent ballplayers (Cone and Glavine come to mind) and awful human beings masquerading as ballplayers (Barry Bonds, to name just one). I don't feel Paul Konerko deserves to be evaluated any differently than anybody else playing in the Show. I base this on what Konerko HAS SAID and what Konerko HAS DONE-- nothing more.

That's the objective standard I'm talking about.

I really don't want to give Konerko any special credit or evaluate him on any standard except as a baseball player. However, I fail to see how evaluating him as a baseball player will end up in a discussion in which you crack on him as being very unintelligent. I agree with BKozi.

I really don't understand why Konerko has "**** for brains" just becuase he didn't go to the minors.

I wonder if you, or anyone else, would volunantarily go to their boss and say, "you know, i haven't been performing lately. Can you please send me to a few training workshops for the next few weeks and hire a guy to do my job while I"m gone? We both know I'm really not helping this company right now and I really want you to get someone who can."

And I also fail to see how "earning what one can while one can earn it," would be considered unintelligent behavior.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-03-2003, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by BKozi
Maybe it's just me, but I don't understand your post at all. How many major league players do you think are out there who would play baseball for free? They just play because they love the game and hey, if they had to sit on the bench for the rest of the season to help the team, they would volunteer? 0, that's how many. Why do you even care about baseball then? You are correct, these guys are there to make a living. Their purpose in life is not to make you happy or feel better about yourself. Don't hold it against Konerko because you have a problem with the fact that he wants to earn as much money as he can in the 15-20 years that he will have in the majors. And how does being "intelligent" make a player's reason for being there any different? By your logic, Glavine should have given back most of that lofty contract that he got from the Mets because of the crappy season he's been having this year. I don't see that as "intelligent" though.

As I stated earlier, Konerko probably should have accepted the trip to the minors, but I can understand why he didn't. But if you want to signal out Konerko for the reasons you have stated above, you are signaling out every single major league player, not just the "awful human beings". Give up on the majors and try watching some college baseball instead, at least they aren't playing for money.

Perhaps you're forgetting that Konerko's salary is guaranteed? Whether he plays on the South Side, down in Charlotte, or props his feet up on his living room sofa, he gets every penny the Sox offered him for the duration of the contract's term. All that a trip to Charlotte would cost Konerko is a hit to his ego. That's no problem for me, but I never claimed he was a special case team leader either. It is other posters here that think Paul Konerko is some sort of special case when his own words and actions indicate precisely the opposite. That's a problem in logic they need to work out, not me.

I would never begrudge any ballplayer the maximum salary the highest bidder is willing to pay them. I tip my cap to Konerko for getting the big salary the Sox offered him last winter. NOBODY in professional baseball needs to work for free, and I challenge you to find anyplace where I've suggested anything of the sort.

Finally, what value Konerko is worth is in part determined by what he is paid. Several people have rightly noted that trading Konerko would be nearly impossible unless the Sox picked up part of his salary. This fact speaks volumes to why Konerko is a loser in the three objective standards I mentioned earlier in this thread:

1. How much does his production help the club?
2. How much does he cost the team (monetary and otherwise) for that production?
3. How replaceable is he?

PaleHoseGeorge
08-03-2003, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by dougs78
I really don't want to give Konerko any special credit or evaluate him on any standard except as a baseball player. However, I fail to see how evaluating him as a baseball player will end up in a discussion in which you crack on him as being very unintelligent. I agree with BKozi.

I really don't understand why Konerko has "**** for brains" just becuase he didn't go to the minors.

I wonder if you, or anyone else, would volunantarily go to their boss and say, "you know, i haven't been performing lately. Can you please send me to a few training workshops for the next few weeks and hire a guy to do my job while I"m gone? We both know I'm really not helping this company right now and I really want you to get someone who can."

And I also fail to see how "earning what one can while one can earn it," would be considered unintelligent behavior.

I regret describing Paul Konerko as being ONE MORE ballplayer having **** for brains. It's too easy for this to be misconstrued as claiming Konerko is ONE MORE unintelligent ballplayer. Please be assured that is NOT what I meant. As near as I can tell, Paul Konerko is very intelligent compared to his peers. To the contrary, I only meant to point out that he is ONE MORE ballplayer earning what he can while he still can. I should have left it at that.

I think we can all agree that ballplayers earn far, far more from their athletic talent than what their mental gifts would otherwise offer them. Some have suggested, myself included, that other groups of people are far, far more deserving of fat salaries--or even decent living-wage salaries. School teachers, and emergency first-responders come immediately to mind. I'm betting Paul Konerko, and most other ballplayers with more human decency than Barry Bonds, would completely agree.

Please accept my apology for causing this misunderstanding.

dougs78
08-03-2003, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I regret describing Paul Konerko as being ONE MORE ballplayer having **** for brains. It's too easy for this to be misconstrued as claiming Konerko is ONE MORE unintelligent ballplayer. Please be assured that is NOT what I meant. As near as I can tell, Paul Konerko is very intelligent compared to his peers. To the contrary, I only meant to point out that he is ONE MORE ballplayer earning what he can while he still can. I should have left it at that.

I think we can all agree that ballplayers earn far, far more from their athletic talent than what their mental gifts would otherwise offer them. Some have suggested, myself included, that other groups of people are far, far more deserving of fat salaries--or even decent living-wage salaries. School teachers, and emergency first-responders come immediately to mind. I'm betting Paul Konerko, and most other ballplayers with more human decency than Barry Bonds, would completely agree.

Please accept my apology for causing this misunderstanding.

First of all, your apology is completely accepted.

I think I see somewhat where you were coming from now. You were arguing against those that see PK as this completely unselfish, consumate team player, team leader, etc. You were simply pointing out that by not going to AAA he was not living up to those qualities to the fullest. I do certainly agree with you there. Am I correct in assuming that by saying what you did, you merely meant, "hes just human like the rest of us." ??

If so, I do agree with you there. If he truly were the perfect team player perhaps he would have gone down.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-03-2003, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by dougs78
First of all, your apology is completely accepted.

I think I see somewhat where you were coming from now. You were arguing against those that see PK as this completely unselfish, consumate team player, team leader, etc. You were simply pointing out that by not going to AAA he was not living up to those qualities to the fullest. I do certainly agree with you there. Am I correct in assuming that by saying what you did, you merely meant, "hes just human like the rest of us." ??

If so, I do agree with you there. If he truly were the perfect team player perhaps he would have gone down.

Thank you for accepting my apology. Yes, this is in essence what I've been trying to explain. Konerko is one more ballplayer and ought to be treated as such.

duke of dorwood
08-03-2003, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by BKozi
Maybe it's just me, but I don't understand your post at all. How many major league players do you think are out there who would play baseball for free? They just play because they love the game and hey, if they had to sit on the bench for the rest of the season to help the team, they would volunteer? 0, that's how many. Why do you even care about baseball then? You are correct, these guys are there to make a living. Their purpose in life is not to make you happy or feel better about yourself. Don't hold it against Konerko because you have a problem with the fact that he wants to earn as much money as he can in the 15-20 years that he will have in the majors. And how does being "intelligent" make a player's reason for being there any different? By your logic, Glavine should have given back most of that lofty contract that he got from the Mets because of the crappy season he's been having this year. I don't see that as "intelligent" though.

As I stated earlier, Konerko probably should have accepted the trip to the minors, but I can understand why he didn't. But if you want to signal out Konerko for the reasons you have stated above, you are signaling out every single major league player, not just the "awful human beings". Give up on the majors and try watching some college baseball instead, at least they aren't playing for money. Trust me, there are many players that dont "love the game"-Its simply all they can do-and get overpaid for it.
We carried Konerko for a costly half season -thats the fact. Even when he is contributing offensively, his running ability does hurt. I like PK, but he has been found to be replacable. I'd like to see some of his $ go towards keeping Bartolo

BKozi
08-03-2003, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I regret describing Paul Konerko as being ONE MORE ballplayer having **** for brains. It's too easy for this to be misconstrued as claiming Konerko is ONE MORE unintelligent ballplayer. Please be assured that is NOT what I meant. As near as I can tell, Paul Konerko is very intelligent compared to his peers. To the contrary, I only meant to point out that he is ONE MORE ballplayer earning what he can while he still can. I should have left it at that.

I think we can all agree that ballplayers earn far, far more from their athletic talent than what their mental gifts would otherwise offer them. Some have suggested, myself included, that other groups of people are far, far more deserving of fat salaries--or even decent living-wage salaries. School teachers, and emergency first-responders come immediately to mind. I'm betting Paul Konerko, and most other ballplayers with more human decency than Barry Bonds, would completely agree.

Please accept my apology for causing this misunderstanding.

No apologies are necessary. Everyone here is entitled to there opinion and everyone's is different. That's why I love this website. I do understand what you are saying. If you check back on my previous post on this thread, I also pointed out that Konerko is not a team leader, just another player. I don't think that he should be elevated but I also don't think that he should be vilified either. I don't see him as any more selfish than anyone else in the league because I think that everyone else would have acted the exact same way. The point that I was trying to make is that if anyone in the majors doesn't believe in their abilities anymore, it is time to hang up the cleats.

With all of that said, I do still like PK and I would like to see him stay with the Sox for a while. He'll never be the best first baseman in the league, but he does have the ability to get a clutch hit when needed. Even though he has been up and down this year, I think he can be a consistent .300/25/95 guy. I'll take that at first anyday.

As for your comment about people like teachers and EMS workers deserving more money, I completely agree. I have a brother and sister-in-law who both quit teaching because they couldn't afford raising kids on that salary. Unfortunately, this will never happen. Society dictates value. If people are still going to pay good money for entertainment, athletes, singers, and movie stars will keep making the big bucks. It would be nice to see a sell-out crowd for a spelling bee, but I don't see it in the near future.