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View Full Version : So when is someone going to call Ordonez out?


ChiSox7
06-11-2003, 08:13 PM
I know that there are plenty of pieces in the White Sox organization that deserve blame for the horrid play so far this season, but I haven't seen anyone "upset" at Magglio. His offense has been pretty bad so far this season. just check out these numbers.

.270 10hr - not good at all for your superstar cleanup hitter
.243 - average with runners in scoring position - YIKES
.212 - average with RISP and less than 2 outs - MORE YIKES

Obviously Maggs isn't the only reason that our offense has been so bad this year, but these numbers are pretty bad for a superstar. Thoughts?

joecrede
06-11-2003, 08:36 PM
I don't think Ordonez has gotten nearly enough criticism for his performance this year. He's been in a word underwhelming.

Another question, how good of a team can you have when Ordonez is its highest paid player?

whitesoxwilkes
06-11-2003, 10:14 PM
I think it may be time for Viva Magglio to change his name to "Magglio es muerte.."

On a team of disappointments, he's been 2nd to worst in my book, with only Konerko letting me down more.

Fridaythe13thJason
06-11-2003, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by whitesoxwilkes
I think it may be time for Viva Magglio to change his name to "Magglio es muerte.."

On a team of disappointments, he's been 2nd to worst in my book, with only Konerko letting me down more.

Agreed with wilkes...Frank always gets criticized, so there's no stopping that, but with Magglio outplaying Konerko like he's a little leaguer, it's hard to take a good look at Maggs. People just see Konerko's .192.

hold2dibber
06-12-2003, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
Another question, how good of a team can you have when Ordonez is its highest paid player?

Answer: Really good.

Your question suggests that no "good team" would have Magglio Ordonez as its highest paid player. Ordonez has been one of the best players in the AL for the last 3 years. He is better than anyone on the Twins. He is better than any player on the Mariners. He is better than any player on the Astros. He's better than any player on the Angels. I could go on and on. Any team in the majors would love to have Magglio Ordonez.

Maggs has been mediocre so far. But don't forget that he didn't really start whacking the ball last year until about this time. So while he deserves criticism for not playing up to his talent so far, he hasn't been horrible and the season is still (relatively) young. Let's not turn on our best player so quickly.

Jjav829
06-12-2003, 08:23 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Answer: Really good.

Your question suggests that no "good team" would have Magglio Ordonez as its highest paid player. Ordonez has been one of the best players in the AL for the last 3 years. He is better than anyone on the Twins. He is better than any player on the Mariners. He is better than any player on the Astros. He's better than any player on the Angels. I could go on and on. Any team in the majors would love to have Magglio Ordonez.

Maggs has been mediocre so far. But don't forget that he didn't really start whacking the ball last year until about this time. So while he deserves criticism for not playing up to his talent so far, he hasn't been horrible and the season is still (relatively) young. Let's not turn on our best player so quickly.

Agreed.

But that said, he does need to start hitting. Thats what your superstar is there for, to help carry your team when your struggling. Right now hes not doing that. He really hasn't looked the same this year even though hes had those two hitting streaks, hes never really looked like hes in a groove at the plate.

34 Inch Stick
06-12-2003, 08:26 AM
Let's not forget Buhrle. The Cy Young candidate is on pace to lose 20 games and has an ERA over five. I don't want to hear this crap about him keeping us in games. In a good number of his starts he has gotten bombed before the Sox even came to bat. Anyway the "hard luck pitcher" excuse is for losers.

I would rate the disappointment list like this

1. Konerko
2. Buhrle
3. Koch
4. Maggs
5. Valentin
6. Crede
7. Lee

I don't put guys like White and Gordon on because I did not expect that much. In that way they have actually met my expectations.

FoulkeFan
06-12-2003, 09:33 AM
I agree that Magglio should be hitting better, but how much of his poor performance can be blamed on having Paulie hitting behind him for so long? No one was going to give Magglio any good pitches to hit when the double play master was up next. And since they dropped Paulie down in the order the Tinkerer hasn't had a consistent #5 hitter.

maurice
06-12-2003, 10:01 AM
The double-play machine in the #5 hole has been this team's single biggest problem. I'm not sure it excuses Magglio, though. Bonds has turned his lack of protection into almost a .500 OBP.

Look for Maggs to return to form soon. He's always been a slow starter and is mired in a cold streak right now.

Blueprint1
06-12-2003, 10:07 AM
I think Magglio not being able to hit when the season starts has really hurt this team the last two years. If your the teams "super star" you should be hitting all the time. Yes PK sucks this year but last year he was the ONLY one hitting at this time of the year.

joecrede
06-12-2003, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Answer: Really good.

Your question suggests that no "good team" would have Magglio Ordonez as its highest paid player. Ordonez has been one of the best players in the AL for the last 3 years. He is better than anyone on the Twins. He is better than any player on the Mariners. He is better than any player on the Astros. He's better than any player on the Angels. I could go on and on. Any team in the majors would love to have Magglio Ordonez.

Maggs has been mediocre so far. But don't forget that he didn't really start whacking the ball last year until about this time. So while he deserves criticism for not playing up to his talent so far, he hasn't been horrible and the season is still (relatively) young. Let's not turn on our best player so quickly.

Maggs accounts for ~18% of our payroll this year and next year that number could go up to as high as 28%(!) Thats far too much of a team's payroll to tie up in a player who has put up mediocre numbers in the first half of the last two years.

Viva Magglio
06-12-2003, 12:14 PM
When will someone call Ordez out? Well, didn't he do so himself a couple weeks ago after a bad loss?

:maggs
"We stink."

OEO Magglio
06-12-2003, 12:16 PM
Yeah, Maggs has been a little dissapointing so far this year, but everyone on this team has been in a slump, and I think the real problem is maggs seems to be the only one on the team that can be in a hitting slump, but still be productive, he's only batting .270, but he's still got descent rbi numbers, I don't worry about maggs he'll be batting .310 by the end of the year.

gosox41
06-12-2003, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
Yeah, Maggs has been a little dissapointing so far this year, but everyone on this team has been in a slump, and I think the real problem is maggs seems to be the only one on the team that can be in a hitting slump, but still be productive, he's only batting .270, but he's still got descent rbi numbers, I don't worry about maggs he'll be batting .310 by the end of the year.


Are you saying that Mags is going to really heat up when the Sox are 12 1/2 games out in August for their annual push to .500?

Bob

hold2dibber
06-12-2003, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Maggs accounts for ~18% of our payroll this year and next year that number could go up to as high as 28%(!) Thats far too much of a team's payroll to tie up in a player who has put up mediocre numbers in the first half of the last two years.

(1) You're changing your argument here. You first suggested that the team couldn't be very good if Maggs was its most highly compensated player. I just think that's flat out wrong. Now you're saying that he takes up too much of the payroll. That's an entirely different issue. I guess my first reaction is, JR should get his head out of his arse and his wallet out of his pocket and boost the payroll - the problem isn't that Maggs is paid too much, the problem is that JR isn't paying for top notch talent at other positions. If he wants to win, he needs to spend more. Maggs is fairly compensated compared to his peers, based upon his performance.

(2) You're exagerating his first half "woes" last year. IIRC, he didn't hit much for the first month, but he still had a damn good first half. By the all-star break, he had 15 HRs, 67(!) RBIs, 61 Rs, a .305 avg. and a .909 OPS. Those are not just "mediocre" numbers.

soxruleEP
06-12-2003, 02:29 PM
Hold2Dibber says:

>>That's an entirely different issue. I guess my first reaction is, JR should get his head out of his arse and his wallet out of his pocket and boost the payroll - the problem isn't that Maggs is paid too much, the problem is that JR isn't paying for top notch talent at other positions. If he wants to win, he needs to spend more. Maggs is fairly compensated compared to his peers, based upon his performance.<<

Couldn't agree more, Dibber.

Here's my plan:

Reinsdorf quits acting like he's losing money. The reason he keeps the payroll low is so that he can tap more profit out of the club. If they're not making money, sell the team to someone who wants to win.

But I digress--

Reinsdorf signs Colon, picks up the option on Loaisa, and generally keeps the pitching staff we now have (White can tell his story walking and you can always get a Gordon-like guy who outproced himself elsewhere and has few options--the typical Sox ploy anyway.)

Valentin--gone
Rios--gone
Rowand--gone

Tejada--sign him! The big money teams already have SS. Spend the damn money.

Beltran--sign him! Spend the damn money.

I odn't know what you do with Konerko. Does he bounce back? Maybe. I think we have to wait and see because his salary is going to prevent his being traded.

SPEND SOME MONEY!

hold2dibber
06-12-2003, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by soxruleEP
Hold2Dibber says:

>>That's an entirely different issue. I guess my first reaction is, JR should get his head out of his arse and his wallet out of his pocket and boost the payroll - the problem isn't that Maggs is paid too much, the problem is that JR isn't paying for top notch talent at other positions. If he wants to win, he needs to spend more. Maggs is fairly compensated compared to his peers, based upon his performance.<<

Couldn't agree more, Dibber.

Here's my plan:

Reinsdorf quits acting like he's losing money. The reason he keeps the payroll low is so that he can tap more profit out of the club. If they're not making money, sell the team to someone who wants to win.

But I digress--

Reinsdorf signs Colon, picks up the option on Loaisa, and generally keeps the pitching staff we now have (White can tell his story walking and you can always get a Gordon-like guy who outproced himself elsewhere and has few options--the typical Sox ploy anyway.)

Valentin--gone
Rios--gone
Rowand--gone

Tejada--sign him! The big money teams already have SS. Spend the damn money.

Beltran--sign him! Spend the damn money.

I odn't know what you do with Konerko. Does he bounce back? Maybe. I think we have to wait and see because his salary is going to prevent his being traded.

SPEND SOME MONEY!

I would love to have Tejada and Beltran, but if I had to pick only one of the two, I'd take Beltran. FYI, however, Beltran is not a free agent after this season; he is a free agent after next season.

The Sox need to re-sign Colon, and the sooner the better. Pick up the Loaiza option and the Sox still have a very formidable staff next year. The two biggest holes will be CF and SS. Short of Beltran and Tejada, I'm not sure who else is available that would fit the bill.

Blueprint1
06-12-2003, 03:29 PM
I bet the cubs sign Tajata it woudnt suprise me. they have gone after big names in the past. We trade for rent a palyers every year. That way we get a player for one year and give up the future in return real smart

SoxxoS
06-12-2003, 03:37 PM
Maggs has stopped doing what he does best, going with the pitch to right field. Him and Konerko have both been pull crazy so far this year.

xil357
06-12-2003, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by soxruleEP
Hold2Dibber says:

Here's my plan:

Reinsdorf quits acting like he's losing money. The reason he keeps the payroll low is so that he can tap more profit out of the club. If they're not making money, sell the team to someone who wants to win.

But I digress--

Reinsdorf signs Colon, picks up the option on Loaisa, and generally keeps the pitching staff we now have (White can tell his story walking and you can always get a Gordon-like guy who outproced himself elsewhere and has few options--the typical Sox ploy anyway.)

Valentin--gone
Rios--gone
Rowand--gone

Tejada--sign him! The big money teams already have SS. Spend the damn money.

Beltran--sign him! Spend the damn money.

I odn't know what you do with Konerko. Does he bounce back? Maybe. I think we have to wait and see because his salary is going to prevent his being traded.

SPEND SOME MONEY!

Couldn't agree more. KC might be willing to let go of Beltran for cheap and it would be worth a trade if we can sign him long-term. Or, build it piece by piece and get Tejada first and Beltran for 2005. Reloading rather than rebuilding.

RKMeibalane
06-12-2003, 04:36 PM
Accquiring Beltran and Tejada would give the Sox the following lineup:

CF- Beltran
2B- Jimenez
1B- Thomas
RF- Ordonez
SS- Tejada
LF- Lee
DH- Konerko
3B- Crede
C- Olivo

If Konerko is not around for next season, the lineup could look this way:

CF- Beltran
2B- Jimenez
1B- Thomas
RF- Ordonez
SS- Tejada
DH- Lee
LF- Borchard
3B- Crede
C- Olivo

If Borchard doesn't pan out, a third lineup could be used:

CF- Beltran
2B- Jimenez
1B- Thomas
RF- Ordonez
SS- Tejada
LF- Lee
DH- Daubach
3B- Crede
C- Olivo

SoxxoS
06-12-2003, 09:15 PM
Tejada and Beltran should be in deeppink, because that is a complete pipedream.

If I had to choose one, however, it would be Tejada. I would have picked Beltran if he was a true leadoff hitter, but Tejada is too good too pass up. He would solidify a position we have NO talent in the minors for the next X years. We have some good centerfield prospects that can possibly play next year. Not only does Tejada hit, as we know, he plays defense. So, in other words, the COMPLETE opposite of Jose Valentin.

I know we aren't into rushing prospects, but I say promote Jeremy Reed to AA and see what happens thereafter. If he continues to hit at AA this season, give him an invite to spring training next season. It's not like young players can't succeed, look at Rocco Baldelli. Additionally, you figure Borchard will hopefully have his swing in order and be ready next year. I think we will be fine in center.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-12-2003, 09:37 PM
I don't get it. This thread started by noting what an underwhelming clean up hitter Magglio has become, and how completely overpriced (by Sox standards, anyway) his salary is. Next thing you know, everyone is agreeing about all the spare parts they want to move off the roster. Maggs is still the #4.

We're talking about the absolute center of the offense, folks. Nobody should take more blame for its anemic output than the #4 hitter. It's not Konerko. It's not Frank. It's not Valentin, Crede, or Lee. And it sure isn't Rowand, Harris, or Borchard, either.

It's Maggs.

We're blowing a big wad of JR's can't-afford-anything-better payroll on this guy. If you think you have a right to giving yourself the Comiskey Upgrade, you ought to be climbing all over his broken English ass. He's the primary reason the team is going nowhere and JR refuses to do anything about it.

Jjav829
06-12-2003, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I don't get it. This thread started by noting what an underwhelming clean up hitter Magglio has become, and how completely overpriced (by Sox standards, anyway) his salary is. Next thing you know, everyone is agreeing about all the spare parts they want to move off the roster. Maggs is still the #4.

We're talking about the absolute center of the offense, folks. Nobody should take more blame for its anemic output than the #4 hitter. It's not Konerko. It's not Frank. It's not Valentin, Crede, or Lee. And it sure isn't Rowand, Harris, or Borchard, either.

It's Maggs.

We're blowing a big wad of JR's can't-afford-anything-better payroll on this guy. If you think you have a right to giving yourself the Comiskey Upgrade, you ought to be climbing all over his broken English ass. He's the primary reason the team is going nowhere and JR refuses to do anything about it.

What a joke. Utter nonsense. I could go on but the point has been made.

So you're ready to give up on him? Funny because I remember a hell of a lot of posts of you defending Frank when he was struggling a lot worse that Magglio is, but now Magglio is in a slump and you ready to get rid of him? So, lets get this straight. You want Jerry to sell because he won't spend enough money on big time players. However, you want Magglio gone regardless of the fact that hes the best player on this team because of his salary? Something doesn't add up here.

I'm not one to normally bring up anything with race, but I love the fact that you described Magglio by using the words "broken English ass". Something tells me you won't be criticizing Frank anytime soon by saying we need to jump all over his "black ass".

So, since you want something done, tell me what. Your urging JR to do something with Magglio, so tell me what you would do. I would love to hear this.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-12-2003, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
What a joke. Utter nonsense. I could go on but the point has been made.

So you're ready to give up on him? Funny because I remember a hell of a lot of posts of you defending Frank when he was struggling a lot worse that Magglio is, but now Magglio is in a slump and you ready to get rid of him? So, lets get this straight. You want Jerry to sell because he won't spend enough money on big time players. However, you want Magglio gone regardless of the fact that hes the best player on this team because of his salary? Something doesn't add up here.

I'm not one to normally bring up anything with race, but I love the fact that you described Magglio by using the words "broken English ass". Something tells me you won't be criticizing Frank anytime soon by saying we need to jump all over his "black ass".

So, since you want something done, tell me what. Your urging JR to do something with Magglio, so tell me what you would do. I would love to hear this.

No, no, no. Who said anything about "giving up" on Maggs? To the contrary, he's supposed to be our best ballplayer. It would be a refreshing change if we started holding him to the same standard other ballplayers given similar status-- and the highest salaries-- are routinely held to around here.

Maggs says little if anything to the media, presumably because his English is poor. I'm not taking him to task for broken English, but how quick we are to paste ballplayers for SAYING something we don't like and NOT SAYING something we think they should have said. Again, Maggs gets a pass. That is not fair and compared to others, just plain wrong.

Finally, if Maggs is the best ballplayer we can afford, I suggest everyone who takes advantage of the team's generosity with Comiskey Upgrades ought to stop complaining about management. Otherwise we ought to get a new owner who has a clue how to market a team and handle public relations, in addition to build a winner on the field.

Maybe the winning formula includes Magglio Ordonez. Unfortunately it sure doesn't appear the winning formula includes Maggs as the central character--as an indifferent Reinsdorf appears ready to test the remainder of this lost season and perhaps several more to come.

Jjav829
06-12-2003, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
No, no, no. Who said anything about "giving up" on Maggs? To the contrary, he's supposed to be our best ballplayer. It would be a refreshing change if we started holding him to the same standard other ballplayers given similar status-- and the highest salaries-- are routinely held to around here.

Maggs says little if anything to the media, presumably because his English is poor. I'm not taking him to task for broken English, but how quick we are to paste ballplayers for SAYING something we don't like and NOT SAYING something we think they should have said. Again, Maggs gets a pass. That is not fair and compared to others, just plain wrong.

Finally, if Maggs is the best ballplayer we can afford, I suggest everyone who takes advantage of the team's generosity with Comiskey Upgrades ought to stop complaining about management. Otherwise we ought to get a new owner who has a clue how to market a team and handle public relations, in addition to build a winner on the field.

Maybe the winning formula includes Magglio Ordonez. Unfortunately it sure doesn't appear the winning formula includes Maggs as the central character--as an indifferent Reinsdorf appears ready to test the remainder of this lost season and perhaps several more to come.

He is held to the same standards. I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone around here who wouldn't say that Maggs season would be disappointing if he finishes with less than 100 RBI. However, I think a lot of people feel that Maggs will break out of it and aren't ready to jump all over him yet.

Are you seriously saying that players should be criticized for not saying something? I don't get that. I would rather have a player keep his mouth shut than say something stupid. We could compile a huge list of things that we would like to hear players say. But who really cares?

There are quite a few teams out there who would like to have Magglio. In fact, I'm sure all 29 teams would take Magglio in a heartbeat if given the chance. I don't see anything wrong with Magglio being the best player on the team. The Angels won the World Series last year without a player the caliber of Maggs. Maybe I just don't get it. I see nothing wrong with Magglio being the best player on the team.

I don't think the winning formula is based around one player. The winning formula should be based around the team, not a certain player. One thing is for sure, the winning formula or a central player in the winning formula hasn't been seen in this city for a long long time.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-12-2003, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
He is held to the same standards. I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone around here who wouldn't say that Maggs season would be disappointing if he finishes with less than 100 RBI. However, I think a lot of people feel that Maggs will break out of it and aren't ready to jump all over him yet.

Are you seriously saying that players should be criticized for not saying something? I don't get that. I would rather have a player keep his mouth shut than say something stupid. We could compile a huge list of things that we would like to hear players say. But who really cares?

There are quite a few teams out there who would like to have Magglio. In fact, I'm sure all 29 teams would take Magglio in a heartbeat if given the chance. I don't see anything wrong with Magglio being the best player on the team. The Angels won the World Series last year without a player the caliber of Maggs. Maybe I just don't get it. I see nothing wrong with Magglio being the best player on the team.

I don't think the winning formula is based around one player. The winning formula should be based around the team, not a certain player. One thing is for sure, the winning formula or a central player in the winning formula hasn't been seen in this city for a long long time.

Well, I can remember any number of occasions that several star ballplayers--Konerko, Thomas, Lofton, Alomar, Foulke-- were called out because the team was performing badly and the expectation (a wrong one, IMO) was that top performers must be the most vocal towards their teammates, too. It's the old locker room canard that brawn equals brains. I don't buy it, and I don't think Maggs has to say **** to earn his keep.

Unfortunately, innummerable threads around here express just the opposite. The best ballplayers must SAY the right things and must avoid SAYING the wrong things, too. If there is validity to that way of thinking, than Magglio Ordonez very definitely deserves far worse than he has received around here--not just for what he says and doesn't say, but his on-field performance, too.

Just my opinion, of course.

Jjav829
06-12-2003, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Well, I can remember any number of occasions that several star ballplayers--Konerko, Thomas, Lofton, Alomar, Foulke-- were called out because the team was performing badly and the expectation (a wrong one, IMO) was that top performers must be the most vocal towards their teammates, too. It's the old locker room canard that brawn equals brains. I don't buy it, and I don't think Maggs has to say **** to earn his keep.

Unfortunately, innummerable threads around here express just the opposite. The best ballplayers must SAY the right things and must avoid SAYING the wrong things, too. If there is validity to that way of thinking, than Magglio Ordonez very definitely deserves far worse than he has received around here--not just for what he says and doesn't say, but his on-field performance, too.

Just my opinion, of course.

O I agree that players shouldn't have to say anything based on their performance. Some players just aren't meant to lead vocally. I remember reading that some ex-Sox player said that Magglio adds presence to the locker room from the moment he pulls into the parking lot. I don't know how much validity there is to that, but it shows that players can be leaders without saying much.

ssang
06-13-2003, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Let's not forget Buhrle. The Cy Young candidate is on pace to lose 20 games and has an ERA over five. I don't want to hear this crap about him keeping us in games. In a good number of his starts he has gotten bombed before the Sox even came to bat. Anyway the "hard luck pitcher" excuse is for losers.

I would rate the disappointment list like this

1. Konerko
2. Buhrle
3. Koch
4. Maggs
5. Valentin
6. Crede
7. Lee

I don't put guys like White and Gordon on because I did not expect that much. In that way they have actually met my expectations.


My disappointment rankings are as such...

1. Konerko
2. Crede
3. Magglio
4. Valentin
5. Koch
6. Gordon
7. Daubach