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MarkEdward
06-09-2003, 02:54 PM
According to Rob Neyer:
http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/neyer/story?page=WhiteSoxQuestion-030606

kermittheefrog
06-09-2003, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
According to Rob Neyer:
http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/neyer/story?page=WhiteSoxQuestion-030606

His new book is pretty cool. I bought it along with Moneyball, pretty blindly just because I could afford it at the moment and I enjoyed his last book. The more I get into it the more interesting it is and the more bones I have to pick with him. The thing that bothers me the most about baseball history is the over valuing of early 20th century baseball players. I really don't feel like the "modern" era began until sometime between 1910 and 1920 rather than at 1900.

MarkEdward
06-09-2003, 03:04 PM
For what it's worth, here's my All-Time Sox 25-man roster:

Starters
C: Carlton Fisk
1B: Frank Thomas
2B: Eddie Collins
3B: Robin Ventura
SS: Luke Appling
LF: Joe Jackson
CF: Minnie Minoso (well, he played some center)
RF: Danny Green

Bench
C: Sherm Lollar
IF: Nellie Fox
IF: Luis Aparicio
OF: Carlos May
OF: Fielder Jones

Starting Pitchers
1. Ted Lyons
2. Ed Walsh
3. Billy Pierce
4. Red Faber
5. Ed Cicotte

Relievers
RHP: Bobby Thigpen (he wasn't that good, he's just here for the whole saves record thing)
RHP: Keith Foulke (or Roberto Hernandez, can't decide)
RHP: Hoyt Wilhelm
LHP: Tommy John (he's a starter, but too good to leave off the list)
LHP: Wilbur Wood
LHP: Doc White (starter mostly, but too good to leave off list)

Manager: Al Lopez

MarkEdward
06-09-2003, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I really don't feel like the "modern" era began until sometime between 1910 and 1920 rather than at 1900.

Why's that?

If it were up to me, I'd use the term "modern era of baseball" for describing the sport after the color barrier of baseball was broken. But that's just me.

kermittheefrog
06-09-2003, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Why's that?

If it were up to me, I'd use the term "modern era of baseball" for describing the sport after the color barrier of baseball was broken. But that's just me.

Thats probably a good call.

xil357
06-09-2003, 03:32 PM
Can't say I disagree with most of the selections since I am not very familiar with early Sox history (other than Shoeless Joe, Collins, Weaver era.)

At what point does Maggs deserve to be on this list? I say within another season or two, if not already.

jortafan
06-09-2003, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
For what it's worth, here's my All-Time Sox 25-man roster:

RF: Danny Green



For fear of sounding incredibly ignorant, who is he? Never heard of him.

Dadawg_77
06-09-2003, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by jortafan
For fear of sounding incredibly ignorant, who is he? Never heard of him.


http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/greenda01.shtml

jortafan
06-09-2003, 03:44 PM
Upon further inspection, I found Green. But I'm not sure he deserves the starting spot on an all-time team.

Personally, I'd put Minoso there (you're already moving him out of position from left field) and go with one of the real center fielders the White Sox have had throughout the years. I'd say Jim Landis, but I'm sure arguments could be made for other players.

Now, I'll crawl back into my hole in shame for being ignorant of Green.

Dadawg_77
06-09-2003, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by xil357
Can't say I disagree with most of the selections since I am not very familiar with early Sox history (other than Shoeless Joe, Collins, Weaver era.)

At what point does Maggs deserve to be on this list? I say within another season or two, if not already.

6 to 10 seasons. Longevity is needed when making the all time great list, plus a couple of great seasons would help to. Lets not be to quick to put Mags up there with the all White Sox greats, he isn't even the greatest player on the team currently.

Dadawg_77
06-09-2003, 03:52 PM
Here is a list of every player who has ever played for the White Sox and there stats while with the Sox

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/bat.shtml

Dadawg_77
06-09-2003, 03:56 PM
How about Chet Lemon in center, I am to young for him but he looks good on paper. Johnny Mostil might be good selction to. But looking at this damn that 1919 team was good.

voodoochile
06-09-2003, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
6 to 10 seasons. Longevity is needed when making the all time great list, plus a couple of great seasons would help to. Lets not be to quick to put Mags up there with the all White Sox greats, he isn't even the greatest player on the team currently. '

Neyer has Luzinski on the team and he was only with the Sox for 4 seasons. They could easily put Maggs in RF and Baines as the DH under those circumstances, of course Baines mostly played RF for the Sox, so it would be a bit of a stretch.

Dadawg_77
06-09-2003, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
'

Neyer has Luzinski on the team and he was only with the Sox for 4 seasons. They could easily put Maggs in RF and Baines as the DH under those circumstances, of course Baines mostly played RF for the Sox, so it would be a bit of a stretch.

True but Greg also had a 15 year career in the Majors, Mags isn't there yet.

Procol Harum
06-09-2003, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Why's that?

If it were up to me, I'd use the term "modern era of baseball" for describing the sport after the color barrier of baseball was broken. But that's just me.

I agree to a point, but would qualify it in the sense that one has to realize that this was not a one-way transaction as it is often portrayed, of "inadequate" white players now having to "face up" to playing against "superior" African-American players. The situation was mutual--many Negro League players never had a prayer of playing in the Bigs after Robinson because they didn't measure up to the standard of play in the Major Leagues. The opening up of MLB weeded out the weaker players on both sides of the color barrier. And the change seemed to effect different positions--black players seemed to particularly excel as position players bringing a new combination of speed and power to the table. By contrast, there was something of a "pitching gap"--white pitchers have dominated MLB nearly as completely after Robinson as they did before his arrival.

Procol Harum
06-09-2003, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
For what it's worth, here's my All-Time Sox 25-man roster:

Starters
C: Carlton Fisk
1B: Frank Thomas
2B: Eddie Collins
3B: Robin Ventura
SS: Luke Appling
LF: Joe Jackson
CF: Minnie Minoso (well, he played some center)
RF: Danny Green

Bench
C: Sherm Lollar
IF: Nellie Fox
IF: Luis Aparicio
OF: Carlos May
OF: Fielder Jones

Starting Pitchers
1. Ted Lyons
2. Ed Walsh
3. Billy Pierce
4. Red Faber
5. Ed Cicotte

Relievers
RHP: Bobby Thigpen (he wasn't that good, he's just here for the whole saves record thing)
RHP: Keith Foulke (or Roberto Hernandez, can't decide)
RHP: Hoyt Wilhelm
LHP: Tommy John (he's a starter, but too good to leave off the list)
LHP: Wilbur Wood
LHP: Doc White (starter mostly, but too good to leave off list)

Manager: Al Lopez

How's about Dick Allen over Carlos May? You can't keep him off the team.

MarkEdward
06-09-2003, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by Procol Harum
How's about Dick Allen over Carlos May? You can't keep him off the team.

Well, he only spent three years on the Sox. Three *great* years, mind you, but three years nonetheless. Ah well, let's put him there anyway. May, take a hike...

Also, I forgot to put Harold Baines as my DH. Don't know how that happened...

duke of dorwood
06-09-2003, 10:34 PM
I'd have Floyd Robinson over Carlos May.

kermittheefrog
06-10-2003, 01:18 AM
Anyone else feel like the Sox have a pretty weak history considering how long the team has been around?

39thandWallace
06-10-2003, 04:08 AM
When you think about the major market Chicago is 3rd largest city in America it is pathetic we haven't been to the series since '59.

Dadawg_77
06-10-2003, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Anyone else feel like the Sox have a pretty weak history considering how long the team has been around?

The Black Sox scandal killed the White Sox. That team was one of the great ones. Since then this team has beencursed with bad baseball people running the team.

Procol Harum
06-10-2003, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Anyone else feel like the Sox have a pretty weak history considering how long the team has been around?

Given the fact that the Black Sox Scandal gutted the franchise for 30 years and we obviously haven't had what it takes to have a shot at a championship since 1959 it's not surprising that the names of many White Sox players and their exploits don't come tripping off the tongues of baseball gurus. If you watched Ken Burns' documentary series (which should probably have been re-titled "Northeastern Baseball and Jackie Robinson") as a Sox fan you felt more than a little orphaned--not too many glimpses or mentions of the Pale Hose after 1919.

That said, I guess there must be a lot of the perverse pride and tenacity of those who root for the underdog in every White Sox fan. We know we have been the victims of inept and corrupt ownership, hapless scouting, below average talent, stacked odds, and plain bad luck. Somehow, though, we look forward to that Great Gettin' Up Day when our boys will right every wrong, dry every tear, and give every churro an extra roll in the sugar and cinnamon as they claim the title of world champeens. Until then, however, good Baseball Calvinists that we are, we're not surprised by any wild bounce, any failure to develop talent, any stupid managerial move, any fanbase-killing ownership gambit, or any misfortune whatsoever. We's White Sox fans. :smile:

MarkEdward
06-10-2003, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Anyone else feel like the Sox have a pretty weak history considering how long the team has been around?

You could be right. In my opinion, we may have the best collection of middle infielders (Collins, Appling, Fox, Aparicio) ever. Frank Thomas is one of the best hitters ever. Our pitchers aren't that bad.

Our problems begin at third base. Aside from Robin Ventura, we've had no good players at third. Willie Kamm was OK, but nothing special. Bill Melton had his moments. That's about it. We've also had no greats play center or right.

On the social aspects of the Sox: I think most people, outside of Chicago, think of our team as a joke. Ask a New Yorker or Bostonian about the Sox, and here's some answers you'll get: 1919 scandal, Bill Veeck, Disco Demolition Night, goofy uniforms, second team in Chicago.

In my opinion, to most of the baseball world, the Sox are just a big old joke.