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lowesox
06-07-2003, 09:06 PM
First of all, I don't want Kenny dumba$$ making any trades on this teams behalf, so the first move we need to make is for a new GM. That said this team is full of cowards so I think a total overhaul is required. That's going to mean trading guys we like and who are performing (even though there aren't many). The first guys who we should be looking to trade are:

1. Lee: I think these WhiteSox have proven the importance of 5 tool players. Lee can hit, but that's about it. His value is quite high right now so he could yield a good return.

2. Jimenez: Same story as Lee. I think he has a big upside offensively, but defensively he's not complete. Besides he's blocking Miles who seems like he could be more of a role player, something this team desperately needs.

3. Colon: A good GM could get 3 good AAA/MLB prospects back in return. He definitely won't be re-signed and this team definitely won't compete this season. He'll probably be the most coveted player by the trade deadline.

4. Loaiza: Who cares if we have an option for him next year? This team isn't going to win for at least 3 more years. That option actually adds to his value which is at its highest right now.

5. Maggs: I like Maggs a lot. But let's face it, this team is a bunch of dead dogs and by the time we start winning Maggs will be gone by free agency. Why not get some hot young players back for him while you can.

Right now we really need a good, young well-rounded SS, and CF and right handed setup man. If/when Konerko comes around then you look to trade him too. If we can, we should dump Valentin, and let Alomar leave at the end of the year. Then, hopefully, Thomas will leave too.

thezeker
06-07-2003, 09:39 PM
QUOTE]Originally posted by lowesox
First of all, I don't want Kenny dumb making any trades on this teams behalf, so the first move we need to make is for a new GM. That said this team is full of cowards so I think a total overhaul is required. That's going to mean trading guys we like and who are performing (even though there aren't many). The first guys who we should be looking to trade are:

1. Lee: I think these WhiteSox have proven the importance of 5 tool players. Lee can hit, but that's about it. His value is quite high right now so he could yield a good return.

2. Jimenez: Same story as Lee. I think he has a big upside offensively, but defensively he's not complete. Besides he's blocking Miles who seems like he could be more of a role player, something this team desperately needs.

3. Colon: A good GM could get 3 good AAA/MLB prospects back in return. He definitely won't be re-signed and this team definitely won't compete this season. He'll probably be the most coveted player by the trade deadline.

4. Loaiza: Who cares if we have an option for him next year? This team isn't going to win for at least 3 more years. That option actually adds to his value which is at its highest right now.

5. Maggs: I like Maggs a lot. But let's face it, this team is a bunch of dead dogs and by the time we start winning Maggs will be gone by free agency. Why not get some hot young players back for him while you can.

Right now we really need a good, young well-rounded SS, and CF and right handed setup man. If/when Konerko comes around then you look to trade him too. If we can, we should dump Valentin, and let Alomar leave at the end of the year. Then, hopefully, Thomas will leave too. [/QUOTE]


I love it! Realistic is exactly what this thread is and right on the money. If we are going to get anything for Colon we need to move him very soon. The closer we get to the trade deadline and with him being a free agent the compensation will quickly dry up. Find someone who needs a quality starter now and pull the trigger. If we get lucky we can get a good CF or a couple prospects who hopefully have a good knowledge of the game. We have too many stupid players!! I cannot think of a nicer word. They are just plain stupid.

Getting rid of Williams is also right on the money. He is the one who lead us down this road and seems to have no clue as to what is happening. If we can all see that I am sure that JR can too. It's time to break this team up and head in a new direction. The sooner the better!

Everything you said is true. I hope someone in the SOX organization comes to the same realization as you!

soxtalker
06-07-2003, 09:53 PM
I like the way you are thinking, although I might differ a bit on the details. I might be tempted to keep Jimenez and Loaiza because of their youth and our ability to keep them. But you are absolutely correct in that we have to be willing to give up players that are playing well to get something. Konerko, for example, probably can't be moved right now, whereas he could have been traded easily about a year ago.

Now, what about Frank? He's started to hit, since he's been playing first base.

lowesox
06-07-2003, 09:58 PM
Frank is the epitome of what's wrong with this team:

Powerhitter. Can't run. Can't play D.

And he's not that good of a hitter anymore. He was great, but isn't anymore.

Joel Perez
06-07-2003, 10:01 PM
I say keep Maggs....he is the only visible Sox fav that anyone has left to cheer about these days...he would be a PR disaster if he goes.

I agree with trading Carlos Lee. Thereby, you can switch Mags to LF, and have Mighty Joe Borchard in RF to make use of his cannon arm, and then have either Aaron Rowand or Willie Harris in CF. In the offseason, if these two cannot pin this position down, then make a trade for a CF. I wonder how fast Brian Anderson can acclimate (sp?) himself to major league pitching....

D'Angelo has some promise offensively. If he ever improves defensively, then he would have some trade merit.

My list of untouchables:

Magglio Ordonez, Joe Borchard, Joe Crede, Miguel Olivo, Mark Buerhle, Esteban Loiaza, Damaso Marte, Kelly Wunsch, David Sanders, Tony Graffanino.

Everyone else could be had, except Frank Thomas. This is a sore subject for me.

If I were the Sox, as far as showing a hopeful future HOF an olive branch, I would sign him for a couple more years also. He has shown that he is useful at 1B, and every so often to save wear and tear, he can DH. However, what Frank has to realize is that "with great wealth comes great responsibility", so he has to step it up continuously. If he seems disinterested in doing this, then I have no problems in saying Goodbye to him. After 12 years with the Sox, though, it's hard to just throw him in the curb just because of what is going on. If management changes for the better, let's see how Frank responds then.

Just my $ .02.

lowesox
06-07-2003, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by Joel Perez
I say keep Maggs....he is the only visible Sox fav that anyone has left to cheer about these days...he would be a PR disaster if he goes.

D'Angelo has some promise offensively. If he ever improves defensively, then he would have some trade merit.


The Sox have proven to me already that they don't give a rat's a$$ about my opinion. And trading Maggs is a good way to get a great player in return (pending a new GM). There are plenty of teams that would love to have him. Besides, why make him sit through a rebuilding phase?

I think Jimenez has lots of value right now: a leadoff hitter that plays hard. And he's got pretty good numbers. Plus, other teams that play better defense would be more tolerable of his defensive liabilities.

MRKARNO
06-07-2003, 10:35 PM
I honestly dont see the sox unloading this year, especially because their roster isn't too expensive as it is

Vsahajpal
06-07-2003, 10:37 PM
No reason to deal Jimenez, he's young, he's cheap, and he gets on base.

No reason to trade Magglio, he's a franchise player.

lowesox
06-07-2003, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
No reason to deal Jimenez, he's young, he's cheap, and he gets on base.

No reason to trade Magglio, he's a franchise player.

The need to trade these guys is that we stink. It's time to restart. It's actually quite the opposite. There's no need to keep a guy like Maggs around. What difference does it make to have a superstar when the rest of the team can't win? And lets face it, if we don't trade MAggs he's going to be gone within 3-4 years anyways via FA, which is about how long a rebuilding phase takes.

voodoochile
06-07-2003, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
Frank is the epitome of what's wrong with this team:

Powerhitter. Can't run. Can't play D.

And he's not that good of a hitter anymore. He was great, but isn't anymore.


Originally posted by lowesox


The need to trade these guys is that we stink. It's time to restart. It's actually quite the opposite. There's no need to keep a guy like Maggs around. What difference does it make to have a superstar when the rest of the team can't win? And lets face it, if we don't trade MAggs he's going to be gone within 3-4 years anyways via FA, which is about how long a rebuilding phase takes.


Frank should finish his career as the Sox first baseman, barring injury, IMO. He not only has the numbers and name to justify it, but he's the only HOF player on the roster at the moment. Besides, how good at defense does a 1B need to be?

You say they stink and I say they are a few moves from being division contenders. IMO, those moves would:
1)Fire Jerry Manuel and Ken Williams
2) Resign Colon.
3) Keep Loaiza
4) Sign a SS
5) Give Borchard the rest of the season in CF. If he continues to struggle at the plate than sign a FA CF and send Joe back to the minors to work on his hitting.

Of course anything that is done, either way is probably fruitless until Reinsy sells, so rebuild or reload, it probably won't matter...

MRKARNO
06-07-2003, 11:07 PM
I'm probably in the small minority, but I'm not ready to give up on this team

pearso66
06-07-2003, 11:18 PM
I too am not ready to give up on this team. I also say dont trade Maggs, not just because you can get stuff for him, but if you are rebuilding, dont you need someone to rebuild around? If we don't have anyone to rebuild around, it will be a lot more than 3 years before we make the playoffs.

Vsahajpal
06-07-2003, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
The need to trade these guys is that we stink. It's time to restart. It's actually quite the opposite. There's no need to keep a guy like Maggs around. What difference does it make to have a superstar when the rest of the team can't win? And lets face it, if we don't trade MAggs he's going to be gone within 3-4 years anyways via FA, which is about how long a rebuilding phase takes.


Are they the reason you stink? Probably not. There is a need to keep a guy like Maggs around. He's a superstar hitter, he's young, and he's just entering his prime. And if you don't keep him around, the Sox will draw less than the Expos in Montreal.

How sure are you that the next rebuilding phase will work? Wasn't that the point of the 97 WFT and subsequent roster moves? This is the product.

I agree with VC, re-sign Colon.

T Dog
06-07-2003, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
... And trading Maggs is a good way to get a great player in return (pending a new GM). ...

Keeping Maggs is one way to keep a great player on your team.

Jjav829
06-08-2003, 01:50 AM
Trading Maggs would be one of the worst moves this franchise could make. This isn't the way you want to go about running a franchise. Develop your talent just so you can ship them off for more prospects? Uhh no. The Sox should be looking to keep a nucleus intact and build around those players. So, we're gonna trade Maggs for some good young prospects that may not even develop and if they do, we can trade them away in a few years? Do you realize what this offense would look like without Maggs? How do you feel about Konerko in the 4 spot? Lee(unless hes traded too)? Borchard? Crede? No thanks. The day this team trades Maggs without getting an equally talented Major League player in return, is the day Reinsdorf should officially hold a press conference stating that he does not care about winning.

gosox41
06-08-2003, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
First of all, I don't want Kenny dumba$$ making any trades on this teams behalf, so the first move we need to make is for a new GM. That said this team is full of cowards so I think a total overhaul is required. That's going to mean trading guys we like and who are performing (even though there aren't many). The first guys who we should be looking to trade are:

1. Lee: I think these WhiteSox have proven the importance of 5 tool players. Lee can hit, but that's about it. His value is quite high right now so he could yield a good return.

2. Jimenez: Same story as Lee. I think he has a big upside offensively, but defensively he's not complete. Besides he's blocking Miles who seems like he could be more of a role player, something this team desperately needs.

3. Colon: A good GM could get 3 good AAA/MLB prospects back in return. He definitely won't be re-signed and this team definitely won't compete this season. He'll probably be the most coveted player by the trade deadline.

4. Loaiza: Who cares if we have an option for him next year? This team isn't going to win for at least 3 more years. That option actually adds to his value which is at its highest right now.

5. Maggs: I like Maggs a lot. But let's face it, this team is a bunch of dead dogs and by the time we start winning Maggs will be gone by free agency. Why not get some hot young players back for him while you can.

Right now we really need a good, young well-rounded SS, and CF and right handed setup man. If/when Konerko comes around then you look to trade him too. If we can, we should dump Valentin, and let Alomar leave at the end of the year. Then, hopefully, Thomas will leave too.

I agree with you 100%. Trade everyone with value. I would even look to move Garland because a lot of teams love him for some reason and the Sox might be able to take advantage of a team. I would also look to move Buehrle in the right deal. He's going to have to start pitching better, but the guy doesn't even want to be here to begin with.

If a player doesn't want to be here, I'm all for showing their sorry a**** the door. All the whining and hinting and complaining about contract negotiations is annoying. I'm sick of it.

Bob

gosox41
06-08-2003, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
Trading Maggs would be one of the worst moves this franchise could make. This isn't the way you want to go about running a franchise. Develop your talent just so you can ship them off for more prospects? Uhh no. The Sox should be looking to keep a nucleus intact and build around those players.


Isn't that what the Sox have done since 1999. Frank, Mags, Konerko, Lee, Buehrle, Garland were the Sox nucleus. They've been given 3 years to produce and haven't. It's time to start over, assuming the Sox can get a lot for Mags. He isn't exactly having a monster year either this year. What's his excuse?


Bob

harwar
06-08-2003, 02:25 PM
I say try and trade everyone except Olivo,Crede,& Borchard.A complete and total overhaul is what this team needs.Start at the top with a new GM and let him build a team that can play sound fundamental baseball,great defense & has good pitching.Unlike the team of DHs we now have that uncle jerry wanted so badly.I'm hoping for a bidding war for Colon (and/or) Loaiza.I think Colon will be great for years to come but this is Loaizas' last great year and we have to take advantage of that.

voodoochile
06-08-2003, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by harwar
I say try and trade everyone except Olivo,Crede,& Borchard.A complete and total overhaul is what this team needs.Start at the top with a new GM and let him build a team that can play sound fundamental baseball,great defense & has good pitching.Unlike the team of DHs we now have that uncle jerry wanted so badly.I'm hoping for a bidding war for Colon (and/or) Loaiza.I think Colon will be great for years to come but this is Loaizas' last great year and we have to take advantage of that.

This is what it has come to. Long time fans have listened too long to JR and really assume that rebuilding from the ground up is the only answer every 5 years or so after a run or two at the division or WC.

I realize that this has been a disappointing season and that the Sox have seriously underachieved/been overhyped, but any team that goes back that far might as well be the Tigers. There has to be a middle ground. Maybe Lee and Konerko shouldn't be on the team. Maybe Garland and Wright need to be traded. Yes, the Sox need a new SS, but honestly how does going back to square one do anything but further decimate the fan base, justify JR's requirement to win one on his terms and further solidfy the Sox as a second class team in the city?

It would be a major mistake to totally dismantle this team, IMO.

:reinsy
"New teams every 5 years? Trade anyone being paid more than $5M? Win a World Series on the cheap or not at all? You fans are my kind of people."

:gallas
"I love this. I can break out all of my "Kids Can Play" slogans when we start over. I can work even less than I do now and still get paid."

:KW
"I wanted to trade Frank, Maggs and Buehrle last off season."

:jerry
"I am a great teacher. If we rebuild, I can keep my job, because working with young impressionable minds is what I do best. I have no idea what to do with a veteran squad, so dumping the older players is fine with me."

:reinsy
"Excellent. I won't even have to fire any of my management team is we rebuild. I hate paying anyone who isn't actually working for me."

Don't believe the hype!

:selljerry

Jjav829
06-08-2003, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Isn't that what the Sox have done since 1999. Frank, Mags, Konerko, Lee, Buehrle, Garland were the Sox nucleus. They've been given 3 years to produce and haven't. It's time to start over, assuming the Sox can get a lot for Mags. He isn't exactly having a monster year either this year. What's his excuse?


Bob

Ok, so we're gonna ignore the fact that the he finished last season with 38 HR's, 133 RBI, and a .978 OPS and ship him off because his season through 60 games hasn't hit like his MVP caliber season last year? Say, I have an idea. Let's trade him for Jeff Conine! Thats not how you go about winning. Just because you can get a lot of talent in return for a player, that doesn't mean you trade him. Sure the Sox could go talk to the Mets who could use a right fielder about a trade and get something in return with players like Heilman, or Reyes, or Kazmir, etc. But what does that accomplish? Your trading away your best player for prospects. Nothing guaranteed. I would still like to know who you would feel comfortable with batting #4 in the lineup if Maggs is gone. Who are you basing your offense around? You want Lee gone as well. Do you want the sub-.200 Konerko there? Either of the young, inexperienced and struggling Joe's? Yeah, thats really going to solve our offensive struggles.

gosox41
06-08-2003, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
Ok, so we're gonna ignore the fact that the he finished last season with 38 HR's, 133 RBI, and a .978 OPS and ship him off because his season through 60 games hasn't hit like his MVP caliber season last year? Say, I have an idea. Let's trade him for Jeff Conine! Thats not how you go about winning. Just because you can get a lot of talent in return for a player, that doesn't mean you trade him. Sure the Sox could go talk to the Mets who could use a right fielder about a trade and get something in return with players like Heilman, or Reyes, or Kazmir, etc. But what does that accomplish? Your trading away your best player for prospects. Nothing guaranteed. I would still like to know who you would feel comfortable with batting #4 in the lineup if Maggs is gone. Who are you basing your offense around? You want Lee gone as well. Do you want the sub-.200 Konerko there? Either of the young, inexperienced and struggling Joe's? Yeah, thats really going to solve our offensive struggles.

I don't know who the #4 hitter will be in the short term, and quite frankly I don't think it matters at all. Maybe they'll get something good for Mags to hit #4.

The Sox need to be rebuilding because this team can't win in it's current state. Of course my original idea was not to rebuild, but to fire managment. That's not happening and it's getting late in the season.

It's time to clean house from KW on down (unless you can convince JR to sell). The fact is that based on JR's trends, the Sox are going to cut payroll next season. I don't want it to happen. I'd rather see them fire KW and bring in an experienced GM and spend some money to take advantage of the talent the Sox do have. History tells me not to expect this.

Odds are Magglio will be gone after the 2004 season when he's a free agent anyway. Trade him now with a year left on his contract and the Sox may get more. If they don't get a good deal (ie your Conine example) then hold on and see how the team does next season.

Bob

xil357
06-09-2003, 08:16 AM
Hangar18, where are you in a thread when we need you?

DON'T REBUILD, RELOAD INSTEAD.

Build around your nucleus of young position players... Maggs, Borchard, Olivo, Crede, Jiminez;

your franchise cornerstone at the position where he excels offensively.... Frank;

your strong pichers... Buehrle, Colon, Loaiza, Garland, Wright, Marte and Koch;

your minor-league up-and-comers ... Miles, Ginter, Ring, Stewart;

and trade your limited commodities for either prospects, role players or to free up space to sign quality free agents who can play defense at poitions where you have holes, such as... Miguel Tejada and Carlos Beltran;

and where you still have holes, identify those players currently on your roster that still can produce at positions where they won't hurt you defensively (Lee at DH, for example).

That's how to BUILD a successful team; not blowing it up and taking risks on all young players from other organizations (where the opportunity to be deceived or misled is too great), but trusting your scouts and player development people and RELOADING with quality parts to fill holes on the major league team as needed.

gosox41
06-09-2003, 10:00 AM
Originally posted by xil357
Hangar18, where are you in a thread when we need you?

DON'T REBUILD, RELOAD INSTEAD.

Build around your nucleus of young position players... Maggs, Borchard, Olivo, Crede, Jiminez;

your franchise cornerstone at the position where he excels offensively.... Frank;

your strong pichers... Buehrle, Colon, Loaiza, Garland, Wright, Marte and Koch;

your minor-league up-and-comers ... Miles, Ginter, Ring, Stewart

and trade your limited commodities for either prospects, role players or to free up space to sign quality free agents who can play defense at poitions where you have holes, such as... Miguel Tejada and Carlos Beltran;

and where you still have holes, identify those players currently on your roster that still can produce at positions where they won't hurt you defensively (Lee at DH, for example).

That's how to BUILD a successful team; not blowing it up and taking risks on all young players from other organizations (where the opportunity to be deceived or misled is too great), but trusting your scouts and player development people and RELOADING with quality parts to fill holes on the major league team as needed.

While reloading is great, it's not realistic with this ownership. See my previous post about salaries and how they go up next season.

You named 13 players, or half the team. Not all of them are playing well right now, but surely these 13 guys when playing well are good players and should help this team to a better record then they have now.

I noticed you left Crede off the list, is he not part of the nucleus?Same with Carlos Lee.

It's hard to trade limited role players and get anything in return.

While signing Beltran and Tejada would be nice, the Sox can't afford both.

What do you do with Konerko? Probably not much demand for a .195 hitting 1B makingg $24 mill over the next 3 years.

Bob

lowesox
06-09-2003, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by Jjav829
so we're gonna ignore the fact that the he finished last season with 38 HR's, 133 RBI, and a .978 OPS

Actually, I think that's the entire reason we should consider trading him. Because he has lots of value. To get something good you have to give up something in return. Other teams would pay through the roof with young players for Maggs.

This team is fundamentally flawed. We've got good pitching but I don't think we have the right kind of lineup to match the pitching. We need guys who can manufacture runs - steal, bunt, hit and run. We need to be more like a National League team. And we need more sparkplugs!

Maggs is a guy I'd love to build around, but rebuilding takes time. Do you really think Maggs will still be here when we're good again? If not, then why keep him now? What do 38 hrs mean to a team that doesn't stand a chance of making the playoffs? I don't buy tickets to see one player, I buy them to see a good team.

voodoochile
06-09-2003, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by lowesox
This team is fundamentally flawed. We've got good pitching but I don't think we have the right kind of lineup to match the pitching. We need guys who can manufacture runs - steal, bunt, hit and run. We need to be more like a National League team. And we need more sparkplugs!

Maggs is a guy I'd love to build around, but rebuilding takes time. Do you really think Maggs will still be here when we're good again? If not, then why keep him now? What do 38 hrs mean to a team that doesn't stand a chance of making the playoffs? I don't buy tickets to see one player, I buy them to see a good team.

So do most people and your plan would ensure the Sox wouldn't be a good team for at least 3 years and even then there would be no guarantees. This isn't the NBA or even the NFL where a few good young players will practically guarantee you a playoff spot in a couple of years and rebuilding is a regular thing for almost every team. This is baseball and there are NO guarantees that young players will ever develop into players good enough to make your team a winner. You simply don't tear a team down to the ground and start rebuilding very often - especially when your GM is unproven at best. Add in the fact that JR won't spend money to ensure a winner when the window opens but will be happy to unload his more expensive talent when he "can't afford it" (read: when less than 2M fans show up at the park - which will DEFINITELY happen each of the next 3 years under your plan) and you have a recipe for more of the same old same old.

How is your plan different from the White Flag Trade or any of the many other rebuilding projects this team has undergone under JR? How many championships have the Sox won with this plan in place?

JR loves fans like you because when he tears the team apart and trades off a bunch of high priced talent for a bunch of "can't miss" kids, you actually are happy. But the number of fans who are happy with that concept is rapidly dwindling and if he does it again, it will start to grow exponentially. JR needs to stop doing the same thing that hasn't worked so far and find a way to field a winner.

Sign Colon
Sign Tejada (or another SS who can hold down the position for a number of years)
Find a team that will take a chance on Konerko (the way the Flubbies did with Hundley)
Find a leadoff hitter
Find a manager who can actually motivate the team

Or get the heck out of here...

xil357
06-09-2003, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
While reloading is great, it's not realistic with this ownership.

You named 13 players, or half the team. Not all of them are playing well right now, but surely these 13 guys when playing well are good players and should help this team to a better record then they have now.

I noticed you left Crede off the list, is he not part of the nucleus?Same with Carlos Lee.

While signing Beltran and Tejada would be nice, the Sox can't afford both.

What do you do with Konerko? Probably not much demand for a .195 hitting 1B makingg $24 mill over the next 3 years.

Bob

Crede is on the list. He's a keeper who will improve.

Lee is a nice DH who could play LF on a team with a CF who covers lots of territory. Signing / trading for Beltran moves Borchard to LF, improves the OF defense and balances the lineup with another switch-hitter with speed. I also would explore dealing with Cincinnati to put together a Konerko plus prospects for Griffey deal instead of signing Beltran, but Griffey's contract would cost a lot more than Beltran.

I would let Valentin go as a free agent (and get the compensatory draft pick) unless I am blown away with a trade offer from another team. Signing Tejada as a free agent plugs the hole with an slight offensive and significant defensive improvement. Alternatively, I would be interested in Garciaparra at SS, but he would cost more in a trade.

Konerko should be put on the DL until he turns it around. If he returns to 2002 1st half form as a DH, trade him for propsects or trade Lee for prospects. If not, trade Konerko for a bucket of balls.

The money freed up from Konerko (and/or Lee) and Valentin could be used to sign Beltran and Tejada. Tejada is not putting up MVP offensive stats this year, and the free agent market is depressed. He may be available for less than you think. Beltran could be obtained in a trade for pitching prospects and Konerko or Lee or both. KC and Oakland are not going to re-sign Beltran and Tejada, respectively. Signing them would mean an increase in payroll, but they may come cheaper than many think.

Many teams with high payrolls in large markets want to unload fat contracts (LA, Yankees, Mets, Rangers). Lots of small market teams can't afford to sign or re-sign players. There are very few teams that will want to add payroll. This is a buyers' market and bargains can be had. That doesn't mean throw good money after bad, but it does mean prices are decreasing on good players who fit the Sox' needs.

I know that ownership doesn't have the brains / nads to re-load, but if I am going to succumb to a defeatist attitude I might as well just stop following baseball and rooting for the Sox because, like it or not, Jerry ain't selling and if he does, it probably will be to an out-of-town owner who just might consider moving the team. That's too bad because the Sox could, with a winning team and good marketing and PR, claim a large share of the third-largest market in the U.S.

hold2dibber
06-09-2003, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
Actually, I think that's the entire reason we should consider trading him. Because he has lots of value. To get something good you have to give up something in return. Other teams would pay through the roof with young players for Maggs.

Yeah! Maybe the Sox could get some can't miss prospects, you know, like Lorenzo Barcelo, Mike Caruso, Ken Vining and Bobby Howry! Prospects are a chancey proposition. And trading a superstar player in his prime -- it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to get equal value. Trading Ordonez would be absolutely absurd.

This team is fundamentally flawed. We've got good pitching but I don't think we have the right kind of lineup to match the pitching. We need guys who can manufacture runs - steal, bunt, hit and run. We need to be more like a National League team. And we need more sparkplugs!.

Why? The Sox are NOT a national league team -- doesn't make much sense to me to put them together like a national league team. What they need, is for Paul Konerko, Joe Crede, Joe Borchard, Brian Daubach and Jose Valentin to not suck. What they need is for Maggs, Frank and CLee to play up to their talent. You might argue that the Sox should replace some of those guys (e.g., CLee for J.D. Drew), but I don't see any reason why bunting, stealing and running for 5 runs a game is any better than walking, doubling and homering for 5 runs a game.

Maggs is a guy I'd love to build around, but rebuilding takes time. Do you really think Maggs will still be here when we're good again? If not, then why keep him now? What do 38 hrs mean to a team that doesn't stand a chance of making the playoffs? I don't buy tickets to see one player, I buy them to see a good team.

The fundamental flaw with your "tear it all down approach" is your apparent belief that this team, as currently constituted, cannot be re-built to contend. And that, in my opinion, is a knee-jerk reaction to lousy performance over the first 57 games of this year, but isn't well-reasoned. KW has cobbled together a damn good starting rotation. The bullpen is decent. And with maggs, D'Ang, Big Hurt, CLee, PK, Jose, Daubach, etc., this offense should be much better than they've been so far. This team is not that far away from being good. I don't have any problem with dealing players - even good, productive players -- to improve the team, but to trade absolutely anyone of value for young prospects, is a recipe for disaster, both in the short term and the long term.

harwar
06-09-2003, 01:07 PM
Maybe a total overhaul is a bit extreme.Its a lot of frustration & aggravation.I just don't see how the ownership can pay for a MLB team when the park is empty all year.Everyone i know is so angry and is ready to give up going.I live in wisconsin and still manage a fair share of games every year,but its getting more difficult.That being said,after the dodger series things look a little brighter.If the Sox can take 2 out of 3 from the giants,then 2 out of 3 from the padres,we may get on a roll just in time to play the cubs.For the first time in years i'm not looking forward to the White Sox - cubs series.My nreves are all but shot this year.I may just have to listen on the radio and hope that we play well.

gosox41
06-09-2003, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
So do most people and your plan would ensure the Sox wouldn't be a good team for at least 3 years and even then there would be no guarantees. This isn't the NBA or even the NFL where a few good young players will practically guarantee you a playoff spot in a couple of years and rebuilding is a regular thing for almost every team. This is baseball and there are NO guarantees that young players will ever develop into players good enough to make your team a winner. You simply don't tear a team down to the ground and start rebuilding very often - especially when your GM is unproven at best. Add in the fact that JR won't spend money to ensure a winner when the window opens but will be happy to unload his more expensive talent when he "can't afford it" (read: when less than 2M fans show up at the park - which will DEFINITELY happen each of the next 3 years under your plan) and you have a recipe for more of the same old same old.

How is your plan different from the White Flag Trade or any of the many other rebuilding projects this team has undergone under JR? How many championships have the Sox won with this plan in place?

JR loves fans like you because when he tears the team apart and trades off a bunch of high priced talent for a bunch of "can't miss" kids, you actually are happy. But the number of fans who are happy with that concept is rapidly dwindling and if he does it again, it will start to grow exponentially. JR needs to stop doing the same thing that hasn't worked so far and find a way to field a winner.

Sign Colon
Sign Tejada (or another SS who can hold down the position for a number of years)
Find a team that will take a chance on Konerko (the way the Flubbies did with Hundley)
Find a leadoff hitter
Find a manager who can actually motivate the team

Or get the heck out of here...


Like I said, I like your overall strategy, it's just not going to happen. I'd like Colon back. And while we're at it, get Beltran and Millwood. But it's not realistic.

While there are no guarantees about young players, as they move higher and higher in the minors, GM"s have a much better idea of what they can or can't do.

I also believes JR wants to win, but bases his payroll on how well the team draws. The 2001 payroll went to $64 mill, then $57 mill in 2002 and $52 in 2003. He did spend after the Sox won in 2000. When attendence falls, the payroll falls. It's a reality. One thing proven here is that money doesn't necessarily equate to playoff appearances.

The Sox are on a limited budget. The only thing wrong with the rebuilding idea is JR hasn't had a good GM running this team since Himes. If he hired a proven winner (ie GIllick or Beane) and a good manager we wouldn't be going through as many rebuilding processes.

As for attendence being below 2 mill the next 3 years if they rebuild, I can guarantee it. I can also guarantee that Mags alone isn't going to draw 2 mill. fans. In fact, do you think Mags is such a drawing card that he pays for his $14 mill. salary on increased attendence.

The only way this team draws 2 mill. is to win. If they have no chance of doing that, it's dumb to throw good money after bad.

Bob

gosox41
06-09-2003, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Yeah! Maybe the Sox could get some can't miss prospects, you know, like Lorenzo Barcelo, Mike Caruso, Ken Vining and Bobby Howry! Prospects are a chancey proposition. And trading a superstar player in his prime -- it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to get equal value. Trading Ordonez would be absolutely absurd.



Why? The Sox are NOT a national league team -- doesn't make much sense to me to put them together like a national league team. What they need, is for Paul Konerko, Joe Crede, Joe Borchard, Brian Daubach and Jose Valentin to not suck. What they need is for Maggs, Frank and CLee to play up to their talent. You might argue that the Sox should replace some of those guys (e.g., CLee for J.D. Drew), but I don't see any reason why bunting, stealing and running for 5 runs a game is any better than walking, doubling and homering for 5 runs a game.



The fundamental flaw with your "tear it all down approach" is your apparent belief that this team, as currently constituted, cannot be re-built to contend. And that, in my opinion, is a knee-jerk reaction to lousy performance over the first 57 games of this year, but isn't well-reasoned. KW has cobbled together a damn good starting rotation. The bullpen is decent. And with maggs, D'Ang, Big Hurt, CLee, PK, Jose, Daubach, etc., this offense should be much better than they've been so far. This team is not that far away from being good. I don't have any problem with dealing players - even good, productive players -- to improve the team, but to trade absolutely anyone of value for young prospects, is a recipe for disaster, both in the short term and the long term.

I think it was Sandy Koufax or Maury Wills who said something about speed not having slumps.

The problem is that as much as I love Frank, Mags, and CLee the last 3 years the Sox have experienced 3 extended offensive slumps. This year was by far the longest. They all may be good to great hitters, but that doesn't mean they make a good fit for a team. Add the slow footed Konerko and you're talking station to station baseball.

The Sox need a mix of speed (guys to steal bases, bunt for hits) and power. Right now they don't have it.

I don't think it's impossible to get fair value for a superstar in his prime. Maybe impossible if KW is GM. Randy Johnson was traded in his prime and I didn't see the Mariners suffer at all from that move.

Bob

voodoochile
06-09-2003, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Like I said, I like your overall strategy, it's just not going to happen. I'd like Colon back. And while we're at it, get Beltran and Millwood. But it's not realistic.

While there are no guarantees about young players, as they move higher and higher in the minors, GM"s have a much better idea of what they can or can't do.

I also believes JR wants to win, but bases his payroll on how well the team draws. The 2001 payroll went to $64 mill, then $57 mill in 2002 and $52 in 2003. He did spend after the Sox won in 2000. When attendence falls, the payroll falls. It's a reality. One thing proven here is that money doesn't necessarily equate to playoff appearances.

The Sox are on a limited budget. The only thing wrong with the rebuilding idea is JR hasn't had a good GM running this team since Himes. If he hired a proven winner (ie GIllick or Beane) and a good manager we wouldn't be going through as many rebuilding processes.

As for attendence being below 2 mill the next 3 years if they rebuild, I can guarantee it. I can also guarantee that Mags alone isn't going to draw 2 mill. fans. In fact, do you think Mags is such a drawing card that he pays for his $14 mill. salary on increased attendence.

The only way this team draws 2 mill. is to win. If they have no chance of doing that, it's dumb to throw good money after bad.

Bob

Again, you are putting the cart before the horse. JR has it backwards. Build a winner and the fans will come out and see it. That much has been proven. The fact is he keeps with these half ass attempts that rely far too much on too many players having career years (Valentin, Ritchie, Alomar, etc.) Find a way to put a winner on the field. Stop treating the Sox like a small market club. Put $80M into the team on the field for a couple of years (Cancel his salary for starters if necessary, borrow off the capital increase, whatever it takes), and see what happens.

Crying poor and hoping for the best while paying lip service to winning has proven to be a crappy way to build a winner and bring the fans out to Comiskey. This team doesn't need a whole bunch of new players, they need a paradiagm shift at the highest level.

Stop believing JR's lies. It is time to stop hoping he can do this on the cheap according to his own outmoded methods and put his money where his mouth is. Otherwise he should...

:selljerry

SoxOnTop
06-09-2003, 01:39 PM
Find a leadoff hitter

Why do I continually hear people on this site call for a lead-off hitter when our most consistant hitter this season has been our lead-off hitter w/ a .370 OBP!!!

I'm all for reloading. Why blow up a team with 3 premier pitchers? Colon will be Colon, Buhrle is returning to form and Loaiza has been lights out! Resign Colon with the money that will be saved on Valentine and Lee.

Do you scrap an entire engine just because a few spark plugs aren't firing? We just need a retooling....

voodoochile
06-09-2003, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by SoxOnTop
Why do I continually hear people on this site call for a lead-off hitter when our most consistant hitter this season has been our lead-off hitter w/ a .370 OBP!!!


I would liike to see Jimenez batting second. That's just my opinion.

Randar68
06-09-2003, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I would liike to see Jimenez batting second. That's just my opinion.

Me too, but I want someone with speed and a .370+ OBP to be in that lead-off role. Unfortunately, we don't have one. We would have to find one at SS or CF. Good luck in that regards.

MHOUSE
06-09-2003, 01:58 PM
Ok why would we trade Maggs? He's a franchise player and if he were gone then nobody would go to the ballpark. He's in his prime and he need a #4 hitter to build around. This team is full of slow DH/1B/LF types. Thomas, Lee, Konerko, Daubach, we need speed and we need defense. Keep Crede, Borchard, Olivo, Jimenez, Maggs. Colon needs to be traded because his value is going to be sky-high come the deadline. Loaiza's option makes him more valuable to a contender or someone who wants to contend next 2 years. He's older and not going to help us rebuild. Get a bidding war going and a good GM can nab something good. Why would Colon resign? Would they pay him the money if he wanted to even? NO and NO. Jimenez is bad defensively so DH him and bring up Miles for 2nd. We need young players who will go all out and play defense and do the little things. Lee, Konerko, Jose, Buehrle, Garland all have to go. Keep Marte, Wunsch, trade Koch and Gordon if you can get something good. Just jettison and rebuild.

Olivo C
Thomas 1B
Miles 2B
new SS
Crede 3B
Maggs LF
new CF
Borchard RF
Jimenez DH

Marte
Wunsch
Glover
Ginter
Sanders?
Wright

gosox41
06-09-2003, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Again, you are putting the cart before the horse. JR has it backwards. Build a winner and the fans will come out and see it. That much has been proven. The fact is he keeps with these half ass attempts that rely far too much on too many players having career years (Valentin, Ritchie, Alomar, etc.) Find a way to put a winner on the field. Stop treating the Sox like a small market club. Put $80M into the team on the field for a couple of years (Cancel his salary for starters if necessary, borrow off the capital increase, whatever it takes), and see what happens.

Crying poor and hoping for the best while paying lip service to winning has proven to be a crappy way to build a winner and bring the fans out to Comiskey. This team doesn't need a whole bunch of new players, they need a paradiagm shift at the highest level.

Stop believing JR's lies. It is time to stop hoping he can do this on the cheap according to his own outmoded methods and put his money where his mouth is. Otherwise he should...

:selljerry


We agree about the same things. The fact is JR won't put his money where his mouth is. It's unfortunate, but a reality.

Bob