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View Full Version : Sox are really not out of it. Look to July


MRKARNO
06-06-2003, 12:19 AM
Here's why:

Their June schedule has brutality potential, but if they find a way to get out of the month playing .500 ball, July is REALLY easy.

2 vs. Min
3 @ TB
3@ Det
4@ Cle (This is where they placed the doubleheader
All star break
4 vs. Det
2 vs. Cle
2@ Sarsland (tor)
3 vs. TB
3@ KC

In the middle of the month, 19 of 21 games are against Tampa Bay, Detroit and Cleveland! If the sox show some life and appear ready to compete in any manner, they might be able to come into July on a hot streak and take 17-19 of 26 games.

I think that July will define our season more so than April may and June combined. We have a medium August and a fairly tough september, but if we're a good club by then, hopefully it wont matter who we're playing. I know that there is not much optimism to be found, but you never know until it's over

chisox06
06-06-2003, 12:24 AM
Normally I would agree with you. But the sox went 1-5 against Cleveland and Detroit last time out. I admit its an easy schedule for GOOD teams but the sox will prolly end up playin around 500 ball in July. The glass is officially half empty folks. :gulp:

siugrad25
06-06-2003, 01:12 AM
By looking at that schedule, one would think that the July schedule favors a strong playoff push heading into the final two months of the season. Unfortunately, it's only June 6 and the Sox still have the Dodgers, Giants, Red Sox, Cubs (x2) and Twins (x2) to contend with this month.

If this team can somehow learn how to play baseball and come out of June with a record above .500 -- in this sorry division -- you're right, we'll have a chance.

However, it's going to take a lot more than taking 1-of-3 from the injury-plagued D-Backs to right this ship.

Rocklive99
06-06-2003, 01:20 AM
I'm optimistic, but the Twins July and remainder of the season is preaty easy, barring some games against the AL West. Plus they can beat teams that we can't *cough*Oakland*cough*. You never know though.

doublem23
06-06-2003, 01:27 AM
Mathematically they're not out of it and could gain a couple games on Minnesota, but realistically, what have we seen out of this team the first 9-10 weeks of the season that would really make us get our hopes up?

jeremyb1
06-06-2003, 01:35 AM
from an objective, detatched point of view we're far from out of it. this team has had quite a bit go wrong and if we get a few bats going and buehrle and colon pitching as well as they're capable to, this club could go on a huge run especially with a weak schedule.

the problem is if you look at this from the point of view of a fan who's watched all of these games, we've shown very few signs of turning it around. guys like crede and konerko continue to look worse, not better, and while frank and maggs have had hot streaks, they haven't lasted particularly long.

what's even more frustrating is that i can recall dozen of instances this season where it seemed like we had an oportune time to gain some momentum and snap out of this funk: taking two of three from the twins with garland pegging a twins hitter, sweeping the orioles with colon hitting an o's hitter, our late inning comeback capped by carlos' home run to salvage a split with tornto, or our comeback extra inning win to avoid being swept by the worst team in baseball.

tonight is another prime opportunity, an extra innings win thanks to by some hot hitting from frank. the team has sure seemed intense and driven since last nights game when we rallied late. however, the problem here is that if you look we're still not scoring a lot of runs. we still have three regulars hitting below .240.

if we turn it around that'd be wonderful but our recent play hasn't suggested we will. if we make a huge turnaround any time soon it will have come out of nowhere.

captain54
06-06-2003, 01:38 AM
can we stop this cycle of "we still have a chance, if this...if that...if this...if that" ???

its the same old thing year, after year, after year....this basic group (left over from 2000) shows some flashes of dominance, then goes into a deep slumber, with bad baserunning, shoddy defense, inconsistent hitting and starting pitching.....

I'm desparately in favor of a housecleaning....from the top on down...I'm at the point where I pretty much wouldn't mind if the team tanked totally in order for Reinsdorf to be publicly humiliated and be forced to:

a) make the necessary changes to make this franchise respectable again
b)bow out of the Chicago baseball scene altogether and take his dog and pony show elsewhere

jeremyb1
06-06-2003, 02:09 AM
Originally posted by captain54
its the same old thing year, after year, after year....this basic group (left over from 2000) shows some flashes of dominance, then goes into a deep slumber, with bad baserunning, shoddy defense, inconsistent hitting and starting pitching.....

it feels the same because as fans we had high expectations that were dashed in '01 and '02. however, if you're realistic about it we had no where near the talent we have this season the previous two seasons.

in '01 we lost d wells, thomas, parque, wunsch, and eldred to injuries. on top of that howry and baldwin had off season surgery and haven't pitched well since.

last season the offense was one of the best in baseball and that was good enough to get us to .500 but the pitching just wasn't there. additionally thomas had a down year and has proven that by performing much better this season.

think about this rationally: we won 81 games last season and added a 20 game winner in colon as well as a guy who's pitching as though he'll win 20 games in loaiza. almost as important, we subtracted one the worst starter in baseball last season from our roster.

look at it this way. we've allowed 270 runs in 58 games so far this season. that puts us on pace to allow 754 runs this season that's 50 runs fewer than we allowed last season despite the fact that buehrle should have an era significantly better than 4.73 and colon could probably produce an era better than a 3.96.

valposoxfan
06-06-2003, 02:28 AM
Please don't get your hopes up because it just leads to all of us on WSI being pissed off when they continue to play heartless, just like the entire year so far...

hose
06-06-2003, 05:44 AM
Fans at TB and Detroit are looking at the schedule and counting these games as wins for their team.

Brian26
06-06-2003, 09:14 AM
Before anyone gets hopeful about our chances, ask yourself this question:

How many times since September of 2000 has this team won a must-win game or a must-win series?

This is the same story that was played out in 2001 and 2002. The Sox got in a tremendous hole, and fans were forced to rest their hopes on possibly sweeping a couple of series against the Twins or Cleveland and playing .800 baseball against Detroit and KC.

Mathematically it can happen. Based on what has happened so far this year, you'd have to be crazy to believe it would happen. Yes, the Sox, mathematically, could be right back in it with a series sweep (or two) of the Twins and KC, but can you rest your laurels on that? We'd be in a much better situation if we were one game out or maybe had a one game lead going into those series.

Winning 8 games in a row against the Twins isn't going to happen. If you win 6 out of 8, you only gain 4 games in the standings, and even 6 wins seems extraordinary.

The only thing constant about the Sox is that they never play well when they are expected to, and they generally don't play well when they aren't supposed to.

1951Campbell
06-06-2003, 10:58 AM
So we manage to eke out a first palce finish in baseball's worst division. Then what? Swept in first round. It's better than nothing but still not much to look forward to. And that's the best-case scenario.

lowesox
06-06-2003, 11:14 AM
Maybe its bitterness speaking, but I think this team is a bunch of cowards. We don't win big games. We don't win easy games. Why? Because those are the ones that get talked about the most. We do well against teams like Baltimore and Toronto, because there are no expectations whatsoever. This team (and especially Jerry Manuel) have proven that they are unable to manage expectations.

gosox41
06-06-2003, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by 1951Campbell
So we manage to eke out a first palce finish in baseball's worst division. Then what? Swept in first round. It's better than nothing but still not much to look forward to. And that's the best-case scenario.

I don't think the Sox have a chance to eke out a first place finish...maybe a third place one though.

If they did somehow manager to win the division this season, I would take my chances on the Sox in a short series. Of course I'm assuming if they win the divisionm, that means the offense has turned it around. I feel comfortable having Colon, Loiaza, and Buehrle go in a shorten series.

But it doesn't matter. It's all a pipedream. The 2003 Sox are not winning anything unless there's an award for 'Most Disappointing Team.'

Bob

pudge
06-06-2003, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
it feels the same because as fans we had high expectations that were dashed in '01 and '02. however, if you're realistic about it we had no where near the talent we have this season the previous two seasons.

in '01 we lost d wells, thomas, parque, wunsch, and eldred to injuries. on top of that howry and baldwin had off season surgery and haven't pitched well since.

last season the offense was one of the best in baseball and that was good enough to get us to .500 but the pitching just wasn't there. additionally thomas had a down year and has proven that by performing much better this season.

think about this rationally: we won 81 games last season and added a 20 game winner in colon as well as a guy who's pitching as though he'll win 20 games in loaiza. almost as important, we subtracted one the worst starter in baseball last season from our roster.

look at it this way. we've allowed 270 runs in 58 games so far this season. that puts us on pace to allow 754 runs this season that's 50 runs fewer than we allowed last season despite the fact that buehrle should have an era significantly better than 4.73 and colon could probably produce an era better than a 3.96.

jeremy, I still think you're a little blinded by how good you think this team should be. You gotta remember, we have some huge holes based on the players we lost: Durham was our leading OBP man and always had his head in the game. Okay, Jimenez has played fine, but he cannot be compared to what Durham did the past several seasons. Also, we started last year with a CF who was on-fire. Lofton eventually crapped out, but during those first two months, Lofton was a machine, playing defense, stealing bases, and being a clutch lead-off man. Then there's the whole Koch vs. Foulke debate, and as mediocre as Foulke was last year, Koch has been horrible, so we've lost a lot in that position so far.

I agree that overall I think the 2003 Sox should be better than last year's team, but not that much better. I was thinking 86 wins before the season, and they probably won't even get that.

SoxxoS
06-06-2003, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Then there's the whole Koch vs. Foulke debate, and as mediocre as Foulke was last year, Koch has been horrible, so we've lost a lot in that position so far.

Koch hasn't been horrible. He has blown 2 saves. He isn't pitching to his capability, no doubt, but he hasn't been horrible. I am confident in Koch the rest of the season.

For us to make a significant run, this is common sense stuff. We need Konerko and/or Crede to start hitting. Crede is a very important part. If we can get him hitting like he did at the end of last year, we could be allright. We also need to demote Rick White to get cut and Matt Ginter to come up. Thomas is starting to come around, and Maggs needs to start going the opposite way (when was the last time he did that?) . Borchard needs to at least hit .250 and Daubach needs to get more PT. When we get back to the AL, Daubach needs to DH until he proves otherwise. His stroke is coming around, and he can carry a team on a hotstreak. I would also love to get Glover back pitching like he should and for Flash Gordon ONLY to come in when we are behind. He is brutal in a tie game or when we have the lead.

If all that happens look out! :D:

lowesox
06-06-2003, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
But it doesn't matter. It's all a pipedream. The 2003 Sox are not winning anything unless there's an award for 'Most Disappointing Team.'


I don't think there has been a truer post all season.

harwar
06-06-2003, 12:53 PM
I keep telling people,"thats it i quit".."i'm not watching the White Sox anymore".But i'm continually pulled back in front of the tv like a zombie searching for human flesh.Way down in the depths of my miserable White Sox soul i still see a wee,tiny glimmer of hope.

Kilroy
06-06-2003, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by harwar
I keep telling people,"thats it i quit".."i'm not watching the White Sox anymore".But i'm continually pulled back in front of the tv like a zombie searching for human flesh.Way down in the depths of my miserable White Sox soul i still see a wee,tiny glimmer of hope.

Well, you have to remember 1983...

Sox won the division by 20 games, but after 58 games, they were in 5th place at 27-31.

It aint over, it just feels like it...

RKMeibalane
06-06-2003, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Well, you have to remember 1983...

Sox won the division by 20 games, but after 58 games, they were in 5th place at 27-31.

It aint over, it just feels like it...

That team found ways to win games, though. The 2003 Sox find ways to lose games.

MRKARNO
06-06-2003, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
That team found ways to win games, though. The 2003 Sox find ways to lose games.

I'm sure that these teams found ways to lose games earlier in the year and then found ways to win games. I think the sox found a new way to win a game last night. Hopefully, they can find a few more ways.

Looking ahead, the Sox face kaz Ishii tonight and send out Buerhle. Kaz scares me more than a bit. Then the sox send out Bartolo against Andy Ashby on saturday, which SHOULD be a win for the sox as Ashby's ERA is 6.59. Sunday is Loaiza vs. Odalis Perez. This one's a tossup but how could I predict a loss?
We miss Brown and Nomo, which is the best we could have hoped for.

Further ahead, the sox face from the giants: Some no name rookie, then Foppert and then Kirk Rueter

If we go all the way to the Padres, their pitching is pitiful

gosox3072
06-06-2003, 03:24 PM
Who knows, maybe just like last night we actually find ways to win instead. I like the way our player are actually are starting to care. Ive seen a few shots of the sox dugout in the past 2 games and can hear them talking; "Lets win this thing" "We gotta get a win" "(JM) Com'on daubach get a hit!" these are things taht we didnt see a few weeks ago. maybe we can start to find ways to win

MRKARNO
06-06-2003, 04:00 PM
Looking at the dugout right after the game, the players looked very encouraged. All they need is to feel self-encouraged and then they will play him IMHO

Dan H
06-06-2003, 07:03 PM
The Sox had a soft schedule last July and didn't produce. This is a slight glimmer of hope but you can't count on a soft schedule. They are still playing major league teams, and they still have to execute. Let's get to .500 first and then we can talk about contending. Besides didn't they just lose five of six to Detroit and Cleveland?

jeremyb1
06-06-2003, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by pudge
jeremy, I still think you're a little blinded by how good you think this team should be. You gotta remember, we have some huge holes based on the players we lost: Durham was our leading OBP man and always had his head in the game. Okay, Jimenez has played fine, but he cannot be compared to what Durham did the past several seasons. Also, we started last year with a CF who was on-fire. Lofton eventually crapped out, but during those first two months, Lofton was a machine, playing defense, stealing bases, and being a clutch lead-off man. Then there's the whole Koch vs. Foulke debate, and as mediocre as Foulke was last year, Koch has been horrible, so we've lost a lot in that position so far.

I agree that overall I think the 2003 Sox should be better than last year's team, but not that much better. I was thinking 86 wins before the season, and they probably won't even get that.

the highest ops durham ever posted for us was the .836 he posted last season. d'angelo has topped that production this season with an .850 ops. his obp in the leadoff spot is as good as any durham posted with the exception of his obp for us in his time with us last season. you can argue ray was as good as dj has been thus far but i have a hard time buying that he was that much better.

you're correct that we haven't had nearly as much production from cf as we did last season in lofton's absense. however, just as much as lofton carried the team at times he killed it at others as he posted a .527 ops in june last season, batting only .136. additionally our overall record with lofton was quite poor as he only played around 100 games for us last season and we played our best baseball at the end of the year.

in addition to these areas there is at least one area where we clearly should've improved. royce clayton was one of the worst hitters in baseball last season. while it is unfathomable, crede has hit much worse this season than clayton did last season (a .660 ops for clayton in '02 vs. .553 for crede this season). no one could have called that a reasonable expectation coming into this season. no one could expect crede to struggle this much.

additionally we are as good or better at catcher where olivo has hit about as well as alomar and mj combined and played better defense.

MRKARNO
06-06-2003, 08:50 PM
I know it's really hard to be optimistic now, but I still think the sox have a good chance at making the playoffs via winning the division

lowesox
06-07-2003, 10:26 AM
The sox lost again last night. Whenever they win their odds of losing the next game skyrockets. This team has no courage. And they're not willing to fight for wins. I remember how the 2000 team fought every night. If they were down they were never out. And that team had far less talent than this years team does. Sorry to be the one to point this out, but other teams look at games against us as a "soft schedule.' Right now we're worse than Detroit, and worse than Cleveland. We have absolutely no chance of making the playoffs.

34 Inch Stick
06-07-2003, 11:27 AM
Away with all of this false hope! Fools gold I tells ya.

Lip Man 1
06-07-2003, 12:28 PM
Stick a fork in em...they are DONE. When the best they could do was be around the .500 mark despite a soft schedule the first month you knew they were in trouble.

I thought it was interesting that according to Joe Cowley in the Southtown a source from the Sox told him that even if the Sox were to lose EVERY game on the road trip Manuel would not be fired.

What a state of affairs where Uncle Jerry continues to do nothing just to save a few lousy bucks on a contract (unless he is deliberately trying to get Manuel to resign, which means the Sox don't owe him a dime...)

Lip

gosox41
06-07-2003, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Stick a fork in em...they are DONE. When the best they could do was be around the .500 mark despite a soft schedule the first month you knew they were in trouble.

I thought it was interesting that according to Joe Cowley in the Southtown a source from the Sox told him that even if the Sox were to lose EVERY game on the road trip Manuel would not be fired.

What a state of affairs where Uncle Jerry continues to do nothing just to save a few lousy bucks on a contract (unless he is deliberately trying to get Manuel to resign, which means the Sox don't owe him a dime...)

Lip

I missed that Joe Cowley quote, though am not surprised by it. The one person I know on 'the inside' told me the same thing (which I posted here) about a month ago.

Bob

lowesox
06-07-2003, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
According to Joe Cowley in the Southtown a source from the Sox told him that even if the Sox were to lose EVERY game on the road trip Manuel would not be fired.

How insulting is that to their fans? Why should we support these losers? Nobody should be buying tickets.

chisoxt
06-07-2003, 08:09 PM
Sox are really not out of it. Look to July

The Sox are REALLY out of it.... Look to AUGUST!!!!!