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Daver
06-05-2003, 06:03 PM
CHICAGO–Kris Honel is in a hurry. He had hoped to skip the Carolina League and go directly to Double-A after a strong first season as a pro, but he’s making the most of his time as a Winston-Salem Warthog.

Honel, who will pitch all season at age 20, allowed three runs or less in five of his first seven starts in the high Class A Carolina League. He was 4-3, 3.35 after a loss to Lynchburg, but his career ERA was still an eye-catching 2.89.

With his velocity back in the 92-94 mph range to complement his knuckle-curve, the White Sox couldn’t be happier about Honel. They nabbed him with the 16th pick overall in the 2001 draft from Providence Catholic High in the southwest Chicago suburbs. If everything works out, he could be the rarest of commodities–a future ace with hometown ties.

Honel appears ticketed for a step-by-step development. He had hoped to move quicker in an organization where Jon Garland reached the big leagues only 435 innings removed from high school.

"They compare me a lot to Jon, stuff-wise and in terms of body type," Honel said. "I look at him, and I know he struggled a little bit when he got to the big leagues, but he’s starting to come into his own . . . Do I think I can do like Jon Garland? Of course I think I can. But it’s up to the people above me, the higher-ups. I just have to do my job, pitch well wherever I am."

General manager Ken Williams indicates the organization has decided to slow the track for its best pitching prospects.

"We were very aggressive in moving pitchers during that time," Williams said, referring to Garland’s arrival in 2000. "The results were mixed. I think we are probably more conservative at this point in time."

Honel isn’t the only pitcher receiving good reviews at Winston-Salem. Lefthander Ryan Wing, taken one round after Honel in the 2001 draft, was 3-1, 1.71 in 42 innings. He had used his sharp slider and hard, low-90s sinker to hold hitters to a .191 average.

Wing’s mechanics are a work in progress, causing occasional control problems. But he has as much upside as any lefthander in the organization.

Huisj
06-05-2003, 07:03 PM
We could have lefties wing and ring in a few years. I just read that Royce Ring, the pick from last year, has been dynamite at AA this year.

Daver
06-05-2003, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by Huisj
We could have lefties wing and ring in a few years. I just read that Royce Ring, the pick from last year, has been dynamite at AA this year.

Royce Ring this season.


Southern League » Birmingham Barons 04/03 to 06/03

W L SV ERA G IP H R ER BB KO HR
1 2 13 0.69 25 26.0 18 3 2 9 35 1

MRKARNO
06-05-2003, 07:15 PM
should we promote Ring and demote Sanders?

SoxxoS
06-05-2003, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
should we promote Ring and demote Sanders?

I think that is a strong possibility after the All Star Break. Sanders hasn't shown me anything. Matt Ginter deserves to be up here as well.

Daver
06-05-2003, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
should we promote Ring and demote Sanders?

I don't know that "we" as fans have the capacity to do that.:redneck


If it were up to me I would send down Sanders and bring up Ginter.

NC_sox_fan
06-05-2003, 07:39 PM
There has been a lot of discussion among fans of the White Sox minors about the rushing of young pitching prospects through the organization. Year after year they end up on the DL or in Tucson, rehabbing from surgery. Just this season Jason Stumm, Heath Phillips, Joe Curreri, Brad Murray, and Mitch Wylie were (or are) all rehabbing from arm injuries in Tucson. Last year there were even more. I've heard that the Sox pitching program does not encourage pitchers to ice their arms after an outing. Whether or not this is a problem, I don't know. I DO KNOW that a lot of young pitchers are going down for some reason.

Does anyone else have an opinion on why all these injuries are happening?

Hopefully Royce Ring, Kris Honel, Ryan Wing, and all the good young pitchers will continue to do well and stay healthy.

Daver
06-05-2003, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by NC_sox_fan
There has been a lot of discussion among fans of the White Sox minors about the rushing of young pitching prospects through the organization. Year after year they end up on the DL or in Tucson, rehabbing from surgery. Just this season Jason Stumm, Heath Phillips, Joe Curreri, Brad Murray, and Mitch Wylie were (or are) all rehabbing from arm injuries in Tucson. Last year there were even more. I've heard that the Sox pitching program does not encourage pitchers to ice their arms after an outing. Whether or not this is a problem, I don't know. I DO KNOW that a lot of young pitchers are going down for some reason.

Does anyone else have an opinion on why all these injuries are happening?



Yeah,because they do not throw enough,off the mound in measured long toss excersizes,at least 50 of them a day.Not pitching,or going into a windup,just throwing the ball,it helps build good muscle tone and keeps the ligaments from getting day in days they are not pitching.

Iguana775
06-05-2003, 09:47 PM
I have a feeling that Honel will be a LOT better than Judy.

hose
06-05-2003, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by daver
CHICAGO–Kris Honel is in a hurry. He had hoped to skip the Carolina League and go directly to Double-A after a strong first season as a pro, but he’s making the most of his time as a Winston-Salem Warthog.

Honel, who will pitch all season at age 20, allowed three runs or less in five of his first seven starts in the high Class A Carolina League. He was 4-3, 3.35 after a loss to Lynchburg, but his career ERA was still an eye-catching 2.89.

With his velocity back in the 92-94 mph range to complement his knuckle-curve, the White Sox couldn’t be happier about Honel. They nabbed him with the 16th pick overall in the 2001 draft from Providence Catholic High in the southwest Chicago suburbs. If everything works out, he could be the rarest of commodities–a future ace with hometown ties.

Honel appears ticketed for a step-by-step development. He had hoped to move quicker in an organization where Jon Garland reached the big leagues only 435 innings removed from high school.

"They compare me a lot to Jon, stuff-wise and in terms of body type," Honel said. "I look at him, and I know he struggled a little bit when he got to the big leagues, but he’s starting to come into his own . . . Do I think I can do like Jon Garland? Of course I think I can. But it’s up to the people above me, the higher-ups. I just have to do my job, pitch well wherever I am."

General manager Ken Williams indicates the organization has decided to slow the track for its best pitching prospects.

"We were very aggressive in moving pitchers during that time," Williams said, referring to Garland’s arrival in 2000. "The results were mixed. I think we are probably more conservative at this point in time."

Honel isn’t the only pitcher receiving good reviews at Winston-Salem. Lefthander Ryan Wing, taken one round after Honel in the 2001 draft, was 3-1, 1.71 in 42 innings. He had used his sharp slider and hard, low-90s sinker to hold hitters to a .191 average.

Wing’s mechanics are a work in progress, causing occasional control problems. But he has as much upside as any lefthander in the organization.



Good to hear that Honel is progressing .

Neal Cotts has to be given a shot this season, we got nothing to lose.

Wing & Ring.....good thing Terry Bevington isn't around.

"I told Coop to give the phone a ring and that I want Wing, well he thought I said to get Ring. So I go to make the change and Wing is still sitting and Ring is warmed up, but I tell the ump I bringing in Wing. He tells me that I better get Wing in here now, but Ring comes running in from the bull pen....."

Huisj
06-05-2003, 10:44 PM
I guess they could say to warm up royce in the pen, but . . .

:hitless
"what, me pitch? I could win a gold glove there you know. Jason Delaerro did it, why not me? We're practically the same player."

jeremyb1
06-05-2003, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by Iguana775
I have a feeling that Honel will be a LOT better than Judy.

garland was more successful in AAA at 20 than honel has been this season against A ball hitters at age 20 so you may want to rethink that.

kermittheefrog
06-06-2003, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
garland was more successful in AAA at 20 than honel has been this season against A ball hitters at age 20 so you may want to rethink that.

I wouldn't say that. Garland never had good strikeout or walk rates in the minors, he was just pushed through the minors quickly and had a nice looking ERA at AAA. Honel is putting up the kind of numbers you look for when evaluating a pitching prospect. It's early to start expecting a lot from him but so far I'm really impressed.

jeremyb1
06-06-2003, 01:47 AM
garland had 52 k's compared to 25 walks in 83.2 ip in charlotte in '00. that's not incredible but its not bad either for a guy who's not a big strike out pitcher. regardless of exactly how dominant garland was at charlotte, he was successful and the difference between two full levels is quite substantial. the ability to get AAA hitters out at 20 even if it is only with decent to above average secondary stats is more than honel has shown.

in retrospect it probably would have been a good idea to take an approach with garland similar to the appraoch we've taken with honel but at the same time if we allowed honel to move up the ladder as garland did, he wouldn't be performing as well as garland did at higher levels at the same age.

hold2dibber
06-06-2003, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by daver
Royce Ring this season.


Southern League » Birmingham Barons 04/03 to 06/03

W L SV ERA G IP H R ER BB KO HR
1 2 13 0.69 25 26.0 18 3 2 9 35 1

Those are truly gaudy stats. In 26 innings, only 18 hits, and almost TWICE as may Ks (35) as hits? Does anyone have a sense for how he is doing it? Does he just have electric stuff or is he more of a "hit his spots" kind of guy?

gosox41
06-06-2003, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by daver
CHICAGO–Kris Honel is in a hurry. He had hoped to skip the Carolina League and go directly to Double-A after a strong first season as a pro, but he’s making the most of his time as a Winston-Salem Warthog.

Honel, who will pitch all season at age 20, allowed three runs or less in five of his first seven starts in the high Class A Carolina League. He was 4-3, 3.35 after a loss to Lynchburg, but his career ERA was still an eye-catching 2.89.

With his velocity back in the 92-94 mph range to complement his knuckle-curve, the White Sox couldn’t be happier about Honel. They nabbed him with the 16th pick overall in the 2001 draft from Providence Catholic High in the southwest Chicago suburbs. If everything works out, he could be the rarest of commodities–a future ace with hometown ties.

Honel appears ticketed for a step-by-step development. He had hoped to move quicker in an organization where Jon Garland reached the big leagues only 435 innings removed from high school.

"They compare me a lot to Jon, stuff-wise and in terms of body type," Honel said. "I look at him, and I know he struggled a little bit when he got to the big leagues, but he’s starting to come into his own . . . Do I think I can do like Jon Garland? Of course I think I can. But it’s up to the people above me, the higher-ups. I just have to do my job, pitch well wherever I am."

General manager Ken Williams indicates the organization has decided to slow the track for its best pitching prospects.

"We were very aggressive in moving pitchers during that time," Williams said, referring to Garland’s arrival in 2000. "The results were mixed. I think we are probably more conservative at this point in time."

Honel isn’t the only pitcher receiving good reviews at Winston-Salem. Lefthander Ryan Wing, taken one round after Honel in the 2001 draft, was 3-1, 1.71 in 42 innings. He had used his sharp slider and hard, low-90s sinker to hold hitters to a .191 average.

Wing’s mechanics are a work in progress, causing occasional control problems. But he has as much upside as any lefthander in the organization.

I hope Honel doesn't "do like Jon Garland" or else Sox fans are going to be frustrated with another overyhyped pitching prospect.

Bob

Iguana775
06-06-2003, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
garland was more successful in AAA at 20 than honel has been this season against A ball hitters at age 20 so you may want to rethink that.

No, i dont.

SoxxoS
06-06-2003, 11:54 AM
Exactly what Kermit said. Honel has the type of numbers one looks for in evaluating a true "ace."

Look at the Cubs pitchers compared to us...In the minors, what do they do that our pitchers don't? Strike people out. Prior, Zambrano and Wood are all examples of that. Juan Cruz has yet to harness his stuff, but if he is on he has electric stuff. He can make hitters look silly. Strikeouts, to me, are extremely important barometer to guage the probability of a pitcher suceeding in the major leagues. I would much rather have a guy like Honel opposed to a guy like Garland. Look at the big time pitching prospects year after year...The Josh Beckett's, the Mark Prior's, the Brett Myers, all those guys have outstanding K/9 ratios.

I am not saying that is the be all end all, but striking out guys really, really helps.

kermittheefrog
06-06-2003, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
garland had 52 k's compared to 25 walks in 83.2 ip in charlotte in '00. that's not incredible but its not bad either for a guy who's not a big strike out pitcher. regardless of exactly how dominant garland was at charlotte, he was successful and the difference between two full levels is quite substantial. the ability to get AAA hitters out at 20 even if it is only with decent to above average secondary stats is more than honel has shown.

in retrospect it probably would have been a good idea to take an approach with garland similar to the appraoch we've taken with honel but at the same time if we allowed honel to move up the ladder as garland did, he wouldn't be performing as well as garland did at higher levels at the same age.

Garland needed A LOT more time in he minors. In a starting pitching prospect you are looking for a K:IP ratio of 1:1. Garland wasn't close. Some people have found that strikeouts are the single most important factor in evaluating the long term prospects of a pitcher. Garland STILL can't strike anyone out.

spanishwhite
06-06-2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by daver
CHICAGO–He was 4-3, 3.35 after a loss to Lynchburg,

His era is down to 2.74 with 66 k's in 62 inn.

To Soxxos, Buerhle didnt have high k rates in the minors, but Sanders had a ridiculous 15 k per 9 inning rate.

It really isnt too indicative of who is going to succeed in the majors.

I believe Wright had a good k rate for Birmingham as well.

I think that some clubs groom strikeout pitchers and others dont.

Foulke You
06-06-2003, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by daver
I don't know that "we" as fans have the capacity to do that.:redneck


If it were up to me I would send down Sanders and bring up Ginter.

How about releasing Rick White and bringing up Matt Ginter? One less "gas can" for Manuel to call on in that pen.

jeremyb1
06-06-2003, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Garland needed A LOT more time in he minors. In a starting pitching prospect you are looking for a K:IP ratio of 1:1. Garland wasn't close. Some people have found that strikeouts are the single most important factor in evaluating the long term prospects of a pitcher. Garland STILL can't strike anyone out.

i disagree with the notion that you have to strike guys out to truly succeed. its true that you should be missing some bats if you're a top prospect but some pitchers rely more than others on having a batter put a ball into play. in my opinion garland is one such pitcher.

quick what has been garland's best major league start? his start against boston last season where he gave up 1 hit through the first three innings, right? how many guys did he strike out? 4. despite the fact that on paper it would appear than he didn't dominate hitters, anyone who watched that game could tell you if garland was anything he was dominant.

one could make the same argument for buehrle. again you need to miss some bats as buehrle does. arguing that k's are completely irrelevant in his case would be inaccurate. at the same time however, strikeouts are not a huge key to his success because he thrives on fooling the batter allowing him to weakly hit the ball in play.

Randar68
06-06-2003, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
strikeouts are not a huge key to his success because he thrives on fooling the batter allowing him to weakly hit the ball in play.


Which is exactly why it is important to the Sox. Have you seen the Sox defense lately? Pitchers like Buehrle and Garland who let the hitters put the ball in play need to have a solid defense behind them.

gosox41
06-07-2003, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by spanishwhite
His era is down to 2.74 with 66 k's in 62 inn.

To Soxxos, Buerhle didnt have high k rates in the minors, but Sanders had a ridiculous 15 k per 9 inning rate.

It really isnt too indicative of who is going to succeed in the majors.

I believe Wright had a good k rate for Birmingham as well.

I think that some clubs groom strikeout pitchers and others dont.

Guess we know which category the Sox fall into.

Bob