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View Full Version : Crazy trade scheme...


MarkEdward
06-05-2003, 12:55 PM
To the A's: Carlos Lee, Frank Thomas, Joe Crede.

To the Cubs: Jose Valentin.

To the Sox: Bobby Crosby, Mark Bellhorn, Buddy Hernandez.

Explanation: A's get more hitters and a platoon partner for Eric Chavez, Cubs get a third baseman, Sox get future SS and a damn good third baseman (Dusty's not happy with Bellhorn) .

There's no chance in hell of this happening, but discuss anyway :smile:.

MisterB
06-05-2003, 01:01 PM
We should under NO circumstances be encouraging Ken Williams to swing ANY kind of deal with Billy Beane ever again.

Huisj
06-05-2003, 01:04 PM
why would the A's want a platoon partner for chavez?

MHOUSE
06-05-2003, 02:02 PM
Why would we want Bellhorn as our everyday 3rd baseman? He's a younger Tony G. Why would Oakland platoon Chavez? I understand the Cubs getting a "3rd baseman" in Jose, but why settle for that when they could get Lowell or Williams? If i dealt with the Cubs I would want one of Farnsworth, Wellemeyer, or other pitching prospects. NOT Cruz or Bobby Hill tho.

Iwritecode
06-05-2003, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
To the A's: Carlos Lee, Frank Thomas, Joe Crede.

To the Cubs: Jose Valentin.

To the Sox: Bobby Crosby, Mark Bellhorn, Buddy Hernandez.

Explanation: A's get more hitters and a platoon partner for Eric Chavez, Cubs get a third baseman, Sox get future SS and a damn good third baseman (Dusty's not happy with Bellhorn) .

There's no chance in hell of this happening, but discuss anyway :smile:.

Key word here is "crazy".

First of all, I'm not sure the A's would take on the salaries of Thomas and Lee.

Secondly, the Cubs wouldn't be getting a third baseman, they'd be getting a shortstop who plays third even worse than he does short.

Lastly, why would we give up Crede for Bellhorn? There's no way the organization would give him up this early in his career after hyping him up for so many years.

ssang
06-05-2003, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
To the A's: Carlos Lee, Frank Thomas, Joe Crede.

To the Cubs: Jose Valentin.

To the Sox: Bobby Crosby, Mark Bellhorn, Buddy Hernandez.

Explanation: A's get more hitters and a platoon partner for Eric Chavez, Cubs get a third baseman, Sox get future SS and a damn good third baseman (Dusty's not happy with Bellhorn) .

There's no chance in hell of this happening, but discuss anyway :smile:.


I wouldn't use the word crazy to describe this trade. I think the word MORONIC comes to mind more. Not only is this a more unrealistic scenario than the White Sox winning the World Series in the next 100 years, it's a downright awful trade for the Sox. Bellhorn over Crede. I don't care if Crede were batting .180 (he's actually close!). I'd still rather have him than Bellhorn. Don't you think that there's a reason the Cubs are desperatley trying to trade for a third baseman!?!?

hold2dibber
06-05-2003, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
To the A's: Carlos Lee, Frank Thomas, Joe Crede.

To the Cubs: Jose Valentin.

To the Sox: Bobby Crosby, Mark Bellhorn, Buddy Hernandez.

Explanation: A's get more hitters and a platoon partner for Eric Chavez, Cubs get a third baseman, Sox get future SS and a damn good third baseman (Dusty's not happy with Bellhorn) .

There's no chance in hell of this happening, but discuss anyway :smile:.

I don't know enough about Crosby or Hernandez to comment on the merits from the Sox' perspective -- other than to say that they'd have to be damn good for the Sox to move 4/9ths of their starting line-up for them (particularly since Bellhorn isn't any good). I simply can't imagine that those two guys are good enough to justify the deal. Also, if you did that deal, I assume you'd be looking at a 2-3 year rebuilding plan, so you'd also want to trade Colon, Gordon, Alomar, Daubach, Graffinino and Loaiza (I would have added PK to that list, but I don't think you could trade him right now for Jamie Navarro).

RKMeibalane
06-05-2003, 04:18 PM
As a "10/5 player," Frank Thomas has the right to veto any trade. I don't think he would be interested in playing for Oakland. If he goes anywhere after this season, it's to the Dodgers. Oakland would not want Carlos Lee, because they already have a surplus of outfielders.

Mark Bellhorn sucks. Last season was fluke. He won't approach those numbers again. Ken Williams should not be making anymore trades, at least not until this season is over. I don't think I could stand it if the team actually got worse.

MarkEdward
06-05-2003, 04:34 PM
I'll try to answer some of my critics here...

Originally posted by Huisj
why would the A's want a platoon partner for chavez?

Splits from 2000-2002: Chavez vs. LHP: .644 OPS; vs. RHP: .949 OPS.

2003 stats: Chavez vs. LHP: .444 OPS(!); vs. RHP: .941 OPS.


Originally posted by Iwritecode

First of all, I'm not sure the A's would take on the salaries of Thomas and Lee.

If we could nab Crosby, I'd happily pay Thomas' and Lee's salaries.

Secondly, the Cubs wouldn't be getting a third baseman, they'd be getting a shortstop who plays third even worse than he does short.

Checking out his stats, Valentin looks to be about league average for a third baseman, defensively speaking.

Lastly, why would we give up Crede for Bellhorn? There's no way the organization would give him up this early in his career after hyping him up for so many years.

We're not *just* getting Bellhorn, we're also getting Crosby, one of the best SS prospects in baseball.


Originally posted by ssang

Don't you think that there's a reason the Cubs are desperatley trying to trade for a third baseman!?!?

Uh, maybe because Dusty's an idiot and doesn't understand Bellhorn's value?

fquaye149
06-05-2003, 05:32 PM
so you think it is worth it to trade away a clubhouse leader(valentin)... one of the few clutch hitters on our team(lee)...a franchise player who is leading the team in obp(thomas)...and a young player who is well above average with the glove and potential for a lot of pop with the bat(crede)

in order to get in return:

a shortstop prospect who at best would take 2 or 3 years to pan out

a third baseman who is pretty much as good as crede right now, albeit not slumping.

and i don't know about hernandez, but unless he's mark prior's evil twin....

COME ON!

(not to say the above players are not worth trading away/trading for... but i am placing the appropriate values upon them(i.e. valentin's supposed charisma)

Vsahajpal
06-05-2003, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
Why would we want Bellhorn as our everyday 3rd baseman? He's a younger Tony G. Why would Oakland platoon Chavez? I understand the Cubs getting a "3rd baseman" in Jose, but why settle for that when they could get Lowell or Williams? If i dealt with the Cubs I would want one of Farnsworth, Wellemeyer, or other pitching prospects. NOT Cruz or Bobby Hill tho.

Farnsworth or Wellemeyer for Jose Valentin? lol!

MarkEdward
06-05-2003, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
[B]so you think it is worth it to trade away a clubhouse leader(valentin)... one of the few clutch hitters on our team(lee)...a franchise player who is leading the team in obp(thomas)...and a young player who is well above average with the glove and potential for a lot of pop with the bat(crede)

To solidify the left side of our infield for years? Yes.

in order to get in return:
a shortstop prospect who at best would take 2 or 3 years to pan out

He'd be our starting SS by next April.

a third baseman who is pretty much as good as crede right now, albeit not slumping.

Bellhorn is a better OBP threat, while Crede will probably be a better power hitter. I'd say they're even, with a small advantage going to Crede because he's a bit younger.

and i don't know about hernandez, but unless he's mark prior's evil twin....


Relief pitcher with a nice K rate in the minors.

kermittheefrog
06-05-2003, 07:47 PM
I don't think Beane would give up Crosby. He needs someone to play short next year when Tejada is gone.

MisterB
06-05-2003, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I don't think Beane would give up Crosby. He needs someone to play short next year when Tejada is gone.

Exactly what I was thinking. And also, Buddy Hernandez was returned to the Braves organization before the end of spring training.

fquaye149
06-05-2003, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward

He'd be our starting SS by next April.




just because someone can be a starting shortstop for the white sox doesn't make him worth trading thomas, lee, and valentin for. is gonzalez such an outstanding shortstop that this "superstar" in crosby just can't get in? we wouldn't trade these players for gonzalez, why trade them for crosby?

Jjav829
06-05-2003, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
just because someone can be a starting shortstop for the white sox doesn't make him worth trading thomas, lee, and valentin for. is gonzalez such an outstanding shortstop that this "superstar" in crosby just can't get in? we wouldn't trade these players for gonzalez, why trade them for crosby?

I think your mistaken. Crosby is a prospect for the A's who is part of the reason why the A's are willing to let Tejada walk.

MarkEdward
06-06-2003, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by fquaye149
just because someone can be a starting shortstop for the white sox doesn't make him worth trading thomas, lee, and valentin for. is gonzalez such an outstanding shortstop that this "superstar" in crosby just can't get in? we wouldn't trade these players for gonzalez, why trade them for crosby?

Um, who's Gonzalez? Andy Gonzalez? Alex Gonzalez? Juan Gonzalez?

MarkEdward
06-06-2003, 01:23 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I don't think Beane would give up Crosby. He needs someone to play short next year when Tejada is gone.

I know. That's probably the biggest flaw in the whole scheme.

On the other hand, maybe Beane wants to "go for broke" this year? Adding Lee and Thomas would probably make the A's favorites in the West, maybe even in the entire AL.

How about this: Carlos Lee for Mike Rouse and someone like Mike Frick?

kermittheefrog
06-06-2003, 01:59 AM
After really taking a look at this trade we'd be giving up Thomas, Lee and Crede for just one valuable player in Crosby. Thats really silly. It'd be a huge setback. Thomas and Jimenez are our only good hitters right now. You seem like you're overreacting to our lack of a shortstop.

MarkEdward
06-06-2003, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
After really taking a look at this trade we'd be giving up Thomas, Lee and Crede for just one valuable player in Crosby. Thats really silly.

Mark Bellhorn isn't valuable? He's not directly part of the deal, but he would be coming to our team.

It'd be a huge setback. Thomas and Jimenez are our only good hitters right now. You seem like you're overreacting to our lack of a shortstop.

I mat be overreacting a bit. I'm still on the fence with Andy Gonzalez, so that's probably why I really want another SS in the organization.

How about this: if we're out of first place by 25+ games heading into July 31st, then would you do the trade?

Iwritecode
06-06-2003, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Mark Bellhorn isn't valuable? He's not directly part of the deal, but he would be coming to our team.

According to today's trib, he lost his job as the Cubs starting thirdbaseman. He's now riding the pine.

I'd rather keep Crede.

voodoochile
06-06-2003, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
According to today's trib, he lost his job as the Cubs starting thirdbaseman. He's now riding the pine.

I'd rather keep Crede.

This is the part of this trade I least like. No one has even mentioned that this kid looks like the future winner of multiple gold gloves. Yeah, his hitting needs to come around, but it is WAY to early to give up on him.

Also, Frank won't necessarily agree to this trade. Probably, but not definitely...

kermittheefrog
06-06-2003, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Mark Bellhorn isn't valuable? He's not directly part of the deal, but he would be coming to our team.

I mat be overreacting a bit. I'm still on the fence with Andy Gonzalez, so that's probably why I really want another SS in the organization.

How about this: if we're out of first place by 25+ games heading into July 31st, then would you do the trade?

Bellhorn is hitting .214/.348/.325 this season. I happen to think thats closer to his real value than his seson last year was. He has a lot more value as a stop gap or a bench player than as a long term solution. You seem interested in him as a long term solution.

And it's too vague for you to ask if I'll do the deal if we're 25 games out. It depends on why we're 25 games out.

MarkEdward
06-06-2003, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
[B]Bellhorn is hitting .214/.348/.325 this season. I happen to think thats closer to his real value than his seson last year was. He has a lot more value as a stop gap or a bench player than as a long term solution. You seem interested in him as a long term solution.

Well, I'll take Bellhorn's minor league and 2002 numbers as a better reflection of his play over a pithy 126 at-bats this year. You know, sample size and everything.

fquaye149
06-07-2003, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Um, who's Gonzalez? Andy Gonzalez? Alex Gonzalez? Juan Gonzalez?


i'm a moron...i was under the impression he was a prospect for the cubs. regardless, he's not getting any p.t. even during a season that saw tejada hitting sub-mendoza thru april. i just dont' like the idea of trading people who can perform and still have a few years ahead of them(lee and crede) for a crapshoot at such a demanding position at ss...where if he didn't pan out, we would be no better off, if not much worse.