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ShoelessFred
06-05-2003, 02:51 AM
this is from ESPN.COM's ramblings section:

"I said prior to opening day that this team is built for the long haul," Williams said. "We're built for more than just a couple of years. So I felt, with all our young guys, it wasn't as imperative for us to start out of the gate fast."

Williams acknowledges that his team is feeling the pressure to turn it around. But his theory is that sooner or later, they'll acknowledge they've hit rock bottom, and that might be "just the point we need to get to."

"We need to say, the heck with it," Williams said. "We've got to wipe the slate clean -- or it's going to be a long summer. But I'm prepared to stick by these guys, because I believe in the talent."

That talent, on paper, still looks good. But one AL scout who has seen a lot of the White Sox calls them "a dysfunctional team."

Nellie_Fox
06-05-2003, 03:07 AM
Originally posted by ShoelessFred
That talent, on paper, still looks good. To whom? This is still a team that cannot play defense. It's made up of first basemen and designated hitters. Pay no attention to the fact that they don't look that bad fielding percentage-wise. If you've been watching lately, there have been a lot of horrible defensive gaffes that didn't get officially recorded as errors.

hold2dibber
06-05-2003, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
To whom? This is still a team that cannot play defense. It's made up of first basemen and designated hitters. Pay no attention to the fact that they don't look that bad fielding percentage-wise. If you've been watching lately, there have been a lot of horrible defensive gaffes that didn't get officially recorded as errors.

I've said it before, I'll say it again -- if Crede, Ordonez, Valentin, Frank and Konerko were producing at the level they produced at last year, those defensive shortcomings would not be nearly as glaring and the team would be at least .500 and in the hunt in a weak AL Central.

Tragg
06-05-2003, 10:18 AM
Longhaul? The best players (on paper) are in their prime: Maggs, Konerko, Lee, Buehrle, Colon, Marte.

It's filled with veteran stiffs past their prime: Gordon, Daubach, Valentin, Alomar.

Then there are a bunch of just average (or below) players.


And the young players with promise make up the minority: Crede, Borchard, Garland, Wright, Olivo

If anything, this team is built to contend today - mostly veterans with a nice mix of youth. Just don't have the talent or whatever to do it.

Paulwny
06-05-2003, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by Tragg
Just don't have the talent

I now believe this is the problem.

hold2dibber
06-05-2003, 10:49 AM
I disagree that this team does not have the talent to contend. Hell, if I thought that I wouldn't be nearly so frustrated and annoyed by their pathetic performance this year. Here is a list of players on the Sox that are, IMHO, performing below their talent level this year:

Buehrle
Crede
Konerko
Ordonez
Thomas
Jimenez (his numbers are good, but if he played with any passion, enthusiasm or concentration, he'd be even better)
Koch
Gordon
White
Glover
Garland
Daubach

Loaiza is in over his head thus far. Colon, Lee, Valentin (unfortunately, I think he's on the down slope of his career and probably no longer much better than he's shown so far this year), Graffy, Rios, Olivo, Alomar, Harris, Wunsch, Marte, and Sanders have all performed at or about their talent level. I don't know what to think about Borchard. That means we've got one guy performing better than expected, 10 guys at or about their expected level, and 12 guys below their talent level (including 6 of the 9 regulars, 2 of whom are playing WAY below their talent level -- i.e., Crede and PK).

This team does not not have the talent to be a WS contender. It certainly has enough talent to win 85+ games, which would put them in the hunt for the division title. They simply aren't getting it done.

TornLabrum
06-05-2003, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by ShoelessFred
this is from ESPN.COM's ramblings section:

"I said prior to opening day that this team is built for the long haul," Williams said. "We're built for more than just a couple of years. So I felt, with all our young guys, it wasn't as imperative for us to start out of the gate fast."

Williams acknowledges that his team is feeling the pressure to turn it around. But his theory is that sooner or later, they'll acknowledge they've hit rock bottom, and that might be "just the point we need to get to."

"We need to say, the heck with it," Williams said. "We've got to wipe the slate clean -- or it's going to be a long summer. But I'm prepared to stick by these guys, because I believe in the talent."

That talent, on paper, still looks good. But one AL scout who has seen a lot of the White Sox calls them "a dysfunctional team."

Translation: "I can't get rid of these guys, and The Chairman won't let me dump the manager."

dickallen15
06-05-2003, 01:00 PM
Someday the White Sox organization will value production equal to or even more important than "talent"

harwar
06-05-2003, 01:06 PM
I just wish that JR would wake up one morning and be normal and realize that a team made up of DHs and a GM & manager that have no idea what they are doing is the wrong way to run a baseball team.Everyone wants JM fired.I believe that unless Ken Williams is fired also,that we will have nothing but woe on the southside for years to come.

thezeker
06-05-2003, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by harwar
I just wish that JR would wake up one morning and be normal and realize that a team made up of DHs and a GM & manager that have no idea what they are doing is the wrong way to run a baseball team.Everyone wants JM fired.I believe that unless Ken Williams is fired also,that we will have nothing but woe on the southside for years to come.


From what I have seen so far this is the worst team in baseball. Even Milwaukee and Detroit play hard and hustle. The Sox do not do either. If they do not shake this mess up soon they will lose 100 games. Play like this is contaigious. It will soon affect the 1 or 2 players who have been giving it their all.

How did we get to this sad state of affairs. The blame must fall on Kenny Williams and a little bit on us for falling for this teams pathetic efforts for the last 3 years. The last 2 years they would play decently when they were out of it and the games did not matter. This team is not even capable of doing that!

Get rid of Williams, let the new GM pick his own manager and put everyone on the trading block with the exception of Olivo, Marte, and Crede. Yes, I still believe Crede is a ballplayer and eventually will be an all star. See what we can do to get some pitching, defense, and situational hitting. Our best teams featured these attributes and its time we get back to where we belong.

It's time to shatter this team and get headed in a new direction. It will take the likes of Colon, Ordonez, and Buerle to bring us some decent players back here. Come on JR, let's get cutting, give us a glimmer of hope!

Paulwny
06-05-2003, 01:28 PM
I'm sick of hearing about this can't miss kid, that can't miss kid, trading for more can't miss kids.
Increase the damn payroll by $30 mil and get some reliable fa's who know how to win.

thezeker
06-05-2003, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
I'm sick of hearing about this can't miss kid, that can't miss kid, trading for more can't miss kids.
Increase the damn payroll by $30 mil and get some reliable fa's who know how to win.


Yeah! Increase the payroll by 30 million when you can't even draw 2 million fans when you win your division. That makes a hell of a lot of sense.

I'd hate to have you in charge of running my business or ballclub for that matter!

Paulwny
06-05-2003, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by thezeker
Yeah! Increase the payroll by 30 million when you can't even draw 2 million fans when you win your division. That makes a hell of a lot of sense.

I'd hate to have you in charge of running my business or ballclub for that matter!

If you don't win you don't draw. Cleveland hasn't won in a few years, end of sell outs, same with the mets. Nobody likes paying for poor entertainment.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-05-2003, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by thezeker
Yeah! Increase the payroll by 30 million when you can't even draw 2 million fans when you win your division. That makes a hell of a lot of sense.

I'd hate to have you in charge of running my business or ballclub for that matter!

Don't look now Zeke, but the small-market contraction Twins--playing in the worst ballpark in the major leagues--have a larger payroll than Reinsdorf's Sox.

Pick another argument.

Iwritecode
06-05-2003, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by thezeker
Yeah! Increase the payroll by 30 million when you can't even draw 2 million fans when you win your division. That makes a hell of a lot of sense.

I'd hate to have you in charge of running my business or ballclub for that matter!

If increasing the payroll means the team starts winning more, the attendance will go up. This was proven in 2000 and with the increase of season ticket holders in the beginning of 2001.

The problem we have is that JR is thinking ass-backwards because he wants the attendance to go up before he spends the money.

He doesn't believe in the old saying "You have to spend money to make money".

Dan H
06-05-2003, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
I'm sick of hearing about this can't miss kid, that can't miss kid, trading for more can't miss kids.
Increase the damn payroll by $30 mil and get some reliable fa's who know how to win.

Increasing the payroll will help, but the Sox also need to spend wisely. Merely throwing money at the problem is no answer, even though I like the sentiment of this post.

What I really don't like about the Williams quote is this nonsense about the "long haul." The White Flag Trade happened almost six years ago. The Sox haven't appeared in a Series in over 40 years and haven't won one in over 80. Just what kind of long haul is he talking about here? "The Kids Can Play" won't work as a slogan anymore.

To the critics of Sox fans and attendance: It is true the 2000 team drew the least out of the division winners. But that is more a reflection on the organization than the fans. This Kenny Williams quote is just another indication of how truly out of touch this organization is.

captain54
06-05-2003, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by thezeker
Yeah! Increase the payroll by 30 million when you can't even draw 2 million fans when you win your division. That makes a hell of a lot of sense.

I'd hate to have you in charge of running my business or ballclub for that matter!

Your hero Reinsdorf has kept the Sox payroll in the lower half of maybe even the lower third amongst MLB teams for the last few years....

now look at the mess we have on our hands....looks like that smart business sense really paid off....

I am SO sick of the argument that spending $$$ doesnt insure a winner, or automatically draw fans to a ball park.....

If Reinsdorf had top notch baseball people in the organization that new how to develop young talent in all areas of the game, and stock the roster with all around solid baseball players, not necessarily marquee players, your argument about not having to spend $$$ to win holds water....

hold2dibber
06-05-2003, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by thezeker
From what I have seen so far this is the worst team in baseball. Even Milwaukee and Detroit play hard and hustle. The Sox do not do either. If they do not shake this mess up soon they will lose 100 games. Play like this is contaigious. It will soon affect the 1 or 2 players who have been giving it their all.

Amen.

How did we get to this sad state of affairs. The blame must fall on Kenny Williams and a little bit on us for falling for this teams pathetic efforts for the last 3 years. The last 2 years they would play decently when they were out of it and the games did not matter. This team is not even capable of doing that!

Ultimately the blame rests with KW, I suppose, but I still think this team has the talent to win. I blame Manuel, the coaches and the players. They simply haven't played up to their potential, and KW isn't to blame for that.

Get rid of Williams, let the new GM pick his own manager and put everyone on the trading block with the exception of Olivo, Marte, and Crede. Yes, I still believe Crede is a ballplayer and eventually will be an all star. See what we can do to get some pitching, defense, and situational hitting. Our best teams featured these attributes and its time we get back to where we belong.

I would add Maggs and Buehrle to the (almost) untouchable list.

It's time to shatter this team and get headed in a new direction. It will take the likes of Colon, Ordonez, and Buerle to bring us some decent players back here. Come on JR, let's get cutting, give us a glimmer of hope!

Ordonez and Buehrle are all-stars; it would be very difficult to get equal value for them. I'd rather sign Colon than trade him. I think that this team still has a solid core to build around. But I think they need to do some serious re-tooling.

RKMeibalane
06-05-2003, 04:39 PM
I don't see how Ken Williams thinks this team is going to "turn it around." The Sox are incapable of coming from behind to win games. They can't hit, field, run the bases, or shut down the opposing team's hitters. The last time I checked, it was necessary to do each of those things in order to win at the Major League level. If Williams honestly believes this team is going to win, he's out of his mind.

The Sox have four games left on their roadtrip. If they can't manage to win three of those games, then Jerry Manuel should be fired as soon as the plane touches down in Chicago. The Sox are made fun of nightly by ESPN. No one shows up for home games. What does Reinsdorf intend to do about this? Nothing.

I realize that it is possible that JR won't let Williams fire Manuel. If KW did such a thing, he would probably be fired. However, I think that might actually help him in the future. Why? I believe that Williams would gain a lot of respect around baseball if he stood up to Reinsdorf, even if meant losing his job. Every other owner in baseball knows what jerk Reinsdorf is, and if KW can find it in him to defy the Chairman, he will have proven that he has a set of testicles.

NewyorkSoxFan
06-05-2003, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
I'm sick of hearing about this can't miss kid, that can't miss kid, trading for more can't miss kids.
Increase the damn payroll by $30 mil and get some reliable fa's who know how to win.


DING DING DING We have a Winner.....

I came to the conclusion yesterday that the WS will never win unless we have a payroll of at least 70 to 75 million dollars. We are trying to catch lightning in a bottle, and the odds are sorely against us.

I won't say you can't compete, but it is difficult to compete consistently without spending for guys with proven production track records as opposed to hoping to ressurrect guys off of scrap heaps hoping they have career years or years they have had in the past.

So we keep the same cycle-Sign middle of the road FA's or bring up kids and hope like hell they produce. When they don't trade them at the deadline and bring in a new batch. Well JR it won't work.

NYSF

jeremyb1
06-05-2003, 05:04 PM
anyone who tries to deny this team's ability on paper is insane. i don't care if we have some defensive shortcommings, we have a team that scored the third most runs in all of baseball last season, has a 19 game winner, a 20 game winner, and the best starter in baseball this season in its rotation and a solid pen.

RKMeibalane
06-05-2003, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
anyone who tries to deny this team's ability on paper is insane. i don't care if we have some defensive shortcommings, we have a team that scored the third most runs in all of baseball last season, has a 19 game winner, a 20 game winner, and the best starter in baseball this season in its rotation and a solid pen.

I agree, but baseball games aren't won on paper. Otherwise, the Sox would have nothing to worry about. This team needs to start producing. Having marquee names (Colon, Thomas) is nice, but it doesn't mean anything unless the team wins. Right now, the Sox are one of the worst teams in baseball. They can't do anything right, and nobody seems to be willing to do something to improve the team. I would much rather watch a collection of no-names who play smart, fundamental baseball, as opposed to this clueless group of players.

NewyorkSoxFan
06-05-2003, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
anyone who tries to deny this team's ability on paper is insane. i don't care if we have some defensive shortcommings, we have a team that scored the third most runs in all of baseball last season, has a 19 game winner, a 20 game winner, and the best starter in baseball this season in its rotation and a solid pen.

I agree Jeremy but we have no CF'er, a marginal SS, and a two future DH's in Left and first. We have no team speed, and our middle relief is suspect. That means you better score some runs every nite to win. But I don't consider that as a team built to win in oct when its cold, you face better pitching and you have to manufacture runs, and hold leads late in games.

NYSF

fquaye149
06-05-2003, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
Longhaul? The best players (on paper) are in their prime: Maggs, Konerko, Lee, Buehrle, Colon, Marte.

It's filled with veteran stiffs past their prime: Gordon, Daubach, Valentin, Alomar.

Then there are a bunch of just average (or below) players.


And the young players with promise make up the minority: Crede, Borchard, Garland, Wright, Olivo

If anything, this team is built to contend today - mostly veterans with a nice mix of youth. Just don't have the talent or whatever to do it.


come on man...this could not be further from the truth.

colon and magglio may be in their prime, but mark buehrle? the man's 24, the same age as miguel o. Carlos Lee is 26.
the veteran stiffs you mentioned are in the minority, not the young players with promise.

dave sanders, billy koch, damaso, gary glover, jon garland...all pitchers in their 20's.

lest we forget our 2 aces are also in their 20's. almost our entire infield is under the age of 30. d'angelo and crede are the same age. magglio may be playing as good as he'll ever play, but he's still only 29.

this team could field a team with members they currently have for the next 5 or 6 years. sure we need a shortstop and a centerfielder...along with some better middle relief, but how can you say we're not built for the long haul?

TornLabrum
06-05-2003, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
anyone who tries to deny this team's ability on paper is insane.

Only problem is they don't play on paper.