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View Full Version : Sox all over Baseball Tonight this evening.


Jurr
06-02-2003, 09:37 PM
Man, they had a loooonng examination of the Sox tonight. They said that Jerry Manuel still isn't being dumped, and that KW and JR are sitting tight. But, they said that everybody's getting restless over the situation and that most people think JM won't survive this trip. Harold Reynolds said that the Sox have had their achilles heel for years---defense. He said that the defense makes pitchers feel like they've gotta K everyone, and that makes them miss spots. (Hence the reason Kip Wells did so well with Pittsburgh).
Then, they said...."if you look at it, they don't have any of the tools to win...." Some pitching, no defense, no speed, no hitting. Bobby Valentine said that Jerry Manuel is a helluva guy and this isn't totally his fault. He put a lot of blame on Frank Thomas, dissing him for bringing in Hriniak, not taking blame for his lack of situational hitting, no hitting with RISP, and many other things. Peter Gammons said that no one is more wired into the franchise than Ken Harrelson, and he was surprised to hear Hawk say today, "The Sox are playing to lose, something needs to be done now."
To finish the thing off, Reynolds says, " This team needs to be blown up, the entire philosophy of the ballclub needs to change to include defense and speed, along with some timely hitting."
Another highlight was talking about how the Indians pitched around everyone this series to get to Konerko, and how fall he's fallen. They made fun of his 1 for 29 slump. Damn....they said that the Sox were in trouble, and they're all wondering when the changes are going to be made.
This is the possibly the worst team in baseball. I mean, they've got some of the best talent in the league, no doubt. Garland, Colon, Buehrle, all of those guys would be great on another ballclub, and will probably soon get that chance. Everybody sits around and just expects things to change instead of doing it themselves, the morale is terrible, and it's all related to the structuring of this team. The team is going to need to acquire some speed guys that can hit for average, no more mashers, and dump the core of this team. They should keep guys like Ordonez, Jimenez, and Marte, guys that have an enormous upside, and get rid of guys like White, Colon, Buehrle, Thomas, Valentin, and others. These are all guys that #1) Don't really want to be on this team #2)Guys that can't get the job done and #3)Guys that could bring in some nice talent with trades. A fiery guy that harps on fundamentals is what this team needs. I'm telling you...it's totally necessary.
For example, I would like to bring up my hometown Basketball team, the Memphis Grizzlies. This year, they had some new talent, alot of hope, and a coach that was laid back and very laid back. They sputtered out the gate to a 0-13 start, and they decided to bring in a fundamentally strong, fiery coach named Hubie Brown. Now, they finished their season with a club record for wins, even despite the 0-13 start, and things look bright.
That's exactly what the Sox need. Someone like Backman that can get this team going, fired up, and can coach the young sharp talent that comes in when this team gets rebuilt. It's gotta happen, and it's gonna happen. Welcome to disappointing year #3.

voodoochile
06-02-2003, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by Jurr
For example, I would like to bring up my hometown Basketball team, the Memphis Grizzlies. This year, they had some new talent, alot of hope, and a coach that was laid back and very laid back. They sputtered out the gate to a 0-13 start, and they decided to bring in a fundamentally strong, fiery coach named Hubie Brown. Now, they finished their season with a club record for wins, even despite the 0-13 start, and things look bright.
That's exactly what the Sox need. Someone like Backman that can get this team going, fired up, and can coach the young sharp talent that comes in when this team gets rebuilt. It's gotta happen, and it's gonna happen. Welcome to disappointing year #3.

Start by getting a GM as good as Jerry West and it will go a long way toward solving the Sox problems...

Jjav829
06-02-2003, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Start by getting a GM as good as Jerry West and it will go a long way toward solving the Sox problems...

If it means trades like Drew Gooden and Gordan Giricek for Mike Miller, no thanks. If it's Kobe for Vlade, then sure.

I watched that little session and for the most part I was nodding in agreement with what they were saying. I think Harold hit it on the head for the most part. At least the Sox get talked about being 1 of only 3 games on the day and the only day game.

Jurr
06-02-2003, 09:54 PM
Ohhh..the Mike Miller thing was pretty smart, if you asked me. We get to drink with Shane Battier at the local Flying Saucer all the time. He said that he talked to West about that trade, and the reason Miller was picked up was to lure his best buddy after next season! And, there is a good chance it will happen!
But, back to the Sox. They do need to be blown apart. They're horrible, point blank. Yes, they're only six under, and they're not too far back. Yes, they still have time to make some miracle turnaround and dominate the Central. It's just not going to happen because the combination of the talents of the players and chemistry of this team sucks.

kermittheefrog
06-02-2003, 09:56 PM
Anyone that says the Sox problem this season is defense is a moron. The offense has been the third worst in baseball. They are much closer to hitting like the Tigers than the Yankees. Thats really the team's problem. The starting pitching as a whole has actually been good even with Buehrle's crazy mad sucking. With Loaiza pitching like Pedro Martinez and Bartolo Colon pitching like Bartolo Colon they more than make up for the mediocrity of the rest of the rotation.

Plus none of the White Sox starters has been absolutely abysmal like last year. Both Gary Glover and Todd Ritchie were among the worst starters in baseball, keeping those types off the mound has been addition by subtraction in the rotation. As for the bullpen, well thats where I really blame Manuel for being clueless. He doesn't use his best reliever enough, that would be Marte. Right now Marte has less IP then games played, Manuel isn't giving Marte enough chance to get righties out, which Marte can do well. And using Rick White about as much as he uses Marte is inexplicable. Jerry Manuel just can't run a bullpen. It doesn't have much if anything to do with bad defense. And you know who wins every year with bad defense? The A's and the Yankees. Because they can hit.

Okay thats the end of my rant.

Kilroy
06-02-2003, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Anyone that says the Sox problem this season is defense is a moron.

The defense has looked 10 times worse than it is because the Sox have not hit the ball like they are capable. They have lost many more games this year because they couldn't produce runs than they have because the defense is weak. Many more.

mack10zie
06-02-2003, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Anyone that says the Sox problem this season is defense is a moron. The offense has been the third worst in baseball. They are much closer to hitting like the Tigers than the Yankees. Thats really the team's problem. The starting pitching as a whole has actually been good even with Buehrle's crazy mad sucking. With Loaiza pitching like Pedro Martinez and Bartolo Colon pitching like Bartolo Colon they more than make up for the mediocrity of the rest of the rotation.

Plus none of the White Sox starters has been absolutely abysmal like last year. Both Gary Glover and Todd Ritchie were among the worst starters in baseball, keeping those types off the mound has been addition by subtraction in the rotation. As for the bullpen, well thats where I really blame Manuel for being clueless. He doesn't use his best reliever enough, that would be Marte. Right now Marte has less IP then games played, Manuel isn't giving Marte enough chance to get righties out, which Marte can do well. And using Rick White about as much as he uses Marte is inexplicable. Jerry Manuel just can't run a bullpen. It doesn't have much if anything to do with bad defense. And you know who wins every year with bad defense? The A's and the Yankees. Because they can hit.

Okay thats the end of my rant.

I second that, at least most of it.

TornLabrum
06-02-2003, 10:03 PM
I think PHG has had it right all along. With this ballclub the stink begins at the top, and it has been festering for 22 years. We have an owner who is enamored with the "Boys of Summer" Dodgers but has no idea of what that club was all about. He remembers Snider, Furillo, Hodges, etc. and forgets Erskine, Newcombe, etc. He forgets Robinson, Reese, Gilliam, etc. on defense.

So for years we've been saddled with clubs that emphasize power hitting and little else. The guy refuses to sign pitchers long term, except for the likes of Jaime Navarro. He allows his GM to load the roster with slow, righthanded 1B/LF/DH types.

Worst of all, he thinks any rookie GM or manager can run a club. The last GM this club had who had any previous experience with the job was Roland Hemond, and he was fired 17 years ago. The last manager we had with any major league managing experience was Jeff Torborg, and he was fired over a decade ago.

Is it any wonder this club stinks?

I heard an interview on The Score last night with Michael Lewis, author of Money Ball. The way the Sox are run seems to be like the Anti-A's. They have a plan and they follow it. We haven't got a clue, but we don't let that stop us.

Life under Reinsdorf has been a succession wanderings in the desert punctuated by the assembly of halfway decent teams that inevitably fail because management doesn't have the guts or the will to add what is really needed.

They wait to pull the trigger and fail to do so. Then they wait until the offseason to add that one key they think they need but really don't. Sometimes they elect to stand pat because they're not sure what they need.

Rather than being upset about the way Prof. Chaos is treated in Lewis's book, maybe some of these clowns should read the damn thing. Maybe they'd learn something.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-02-2003, 10:05 PM
Would this be a good time for me to note that Harold Reynolds, Bobby Valentine, and Peter Gammons are all clueless freaking *******s?

:)

kermittheefrog
06-02-2003, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum

I heard an interview on The Score last night with Michael Lewis, author of Money Ball. The way the Sox are run seems to be like the Anti-A's. They have a plan and they follow it. We haven't got a clue, but we don't let that stop us.


Most unsuccessful teams are run like the anti-A's. Really winning starts with a plan and it doesn't necessarily have to start with sabermetrics. Pat Gillick runs his team differently than Beane but he's successful because he has a plan. You can say that about a lot of GMs. Although I'd say it helps a lot to be running things as efficiently as Beane and crew.

Daver
06-02-2003, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Although I'd say it helps a lot to be running things as efficiently as Beane and crew.

Yeah and Beane has the WS ring to prove it.

Konerkoholic
06-02-2003, 10:13 PM
Although I want to throw a grenade into the Baseball Tonight studio, the ongoing criticisms of this lousy team are well-deserved. I hate Harold Reynolds, but he was right about the defense costing the Sox games. Just look at Buehrle's game in Toronto. It's so embarassing to see how ESPN views the White Sox. When they win, they get a 10- second highlight at the end of SportsCenter. When they lose, they get made fun of. It's depressing.

TornLabrum
06-02-2003, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by daver
Yeah and Beane has the WS ring to prove it.

On the other hand, they are competitive with a budget that, iirc, is lower than that of the Sox. Just imagine what we could do if we actually had some kind of philosophy of running this club other than "on the cheap."

Jjav829
06-02-2003, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Anyone that says the Sox problem this season is defense is a moron. The offense has been the third worst in baseball. They are much closer to hitting like the Tigers than the Yankees. Thats really the team's problem. The starting pitching as a whole has actually been good even with Buehrle's crazy mad sucking. With Loaiza pitching like Pedro Martinez and Bartolo Colon pitching like Bartolo Colon they more than make up for the mediocrity of the rest of the rotation.

Plus none of the White Sox starters has been absolutely abysmal like last year. Both Gary Glover and Todd Ritchie were among the worst starters in baseball, keeping those types off the mound has been addition by subtraction in the rotation. As for the bullpen, well thats where I really blame Manuel for being clueless. He doesn't use his best reliever enough, that would be Marte. Right now Marte has less IP then games played, Manuel isn't giving Marte enough chance to get righties out, which Marte can do well. And using Rick White about as much as he uses Marte is inexplicable. Jerry Manuel just can't run a bullpen. It doesn't have much if anything to do with bad defense. And you know who wins every year with bad defense? The A's and the Yankees. Because they can hit.

Okay thats the end of my rant.

The defense on this team IS a problem, and while it isn't the reason we're losing this year, it has to be addressed. Every year the defense is ignored, and every year it is bad. So, your basic reasoning is if the Yankees and A's can do it, so can the Sox? That isn't a good philosophy to base your team around. The Yankees are a completely different story. Yes the Yankees do hit. You know what else they do, pitch, make big plays, play fundamental baseball, close games out. And hell, if they're not doing something right they can go find someone who can do it right. As much as I think Derek Jeter is overrated, you know what, Derek Jeter makes that play in the 10th inning yesterday. Jose Valentin doesn't. Big difference.

The bad defense is just the start of things. I couldn't agree more with Harold that this team needs to change it's philosophy. 2000 was a horrible season because it made us believe we were close to being a good team. We need hitters. I remember reading a post on ESPN by a Twins fan during a thread about whether the Sox or Twins had a better offense. His reply was basically saying that the Twins had a better offense because they had better hitters but the Sox had better sluggers . I thought he was wrong at the time but now, I couldn't agree with him more.

RKMeibalane
06-02-2003, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
I think PHG has had it right all along. With this ballclub the stink begins at the top, and it has been festering for 22 years. We have an owner who is enamored with the "Boys of Summer" Dodgers but has no idea of what that club was all about. He remembers Snider, Furillo, Hodges, etc. and forgets Erskine, Newcombe, etc. He forgets Robinson, Reese, Gilliam, etc. on defense.

So for years we've been saddled with clubs that emphasize power hitting and little else. The guy refuses to sign pitchers long term, except for the likes of Jaime Navarro. He allows his GM to load the roster with slow, righthanded 1B/LF/DH types.

Worst of all, he thinks any rookie GM or manager can run a club. The last GM this club had who had any previous experience with the job was Roland Hemond, and he was fired 17 years ago. The last manager we had with any major league managing experience was Jeff Torborg, and he was fired over a decade ago.

Is it any wonder this club stinks?

I heard an interview on The Score last night with Michael Lewis, author of Money Ball. The way the Sox are run seems to be like the Anti-A's. They have a plan and they follow it. We haven't got a clue, but we don't let that stop us.

Life under Reinsdorf has been a succession wanderings in the desert punctuated by the assembly of halfway decent teams that inevitably fail because management doesn't have the guts or the will to add what is really needed.

They wait to pull the trigger and fail to do so. Then they wait until the offseason to add that one key they think they need but really don't. Sometimes they elect to stand pat because they're not sure what they need.

Rather than being upset about the way Prof. Chaos is treated in Lewis's book, maybe some of these clowns should read the damn thing. Maybe they'd learn something.

What I would love to know is this: where exactly is it written that a team must hit with power in order to win? There are several teams that have managed to win games in spite of not having a large collection of homerun hitters in the lineup. Look at the Atlanta Braves. The only legitamate power threats in that lineup are Andruw Jones, Gary Sheffield, and Chipper Jones. Everyone else is more or less a slap hitter. However, all of them are capable of "doing the little things" in order to score runs. The emphasis is on run production, not the distance a ball travels over the left field fence.

The St. Louis Cardinals of the 1980's are an even better example. That team utilized the artificial turf at Busch Stadium perfectly. Jack Clark was the only power hitter in the lineup. Everyone else was capable of stealing bases or hitting for average. Tommy Herr drove in over one hundred runs in 1985, even though he hit only eight homeruns. The Sox don't have anyone on pace to drive in one hundred this season.

TornLabrum
06-02-2003, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
What I would love to know is this: where exactly is it written that a team must hit with power in order to win? There are several teams that have managed to win games in spite of not having a large collection of homerun hitters in the lineup. Look at the Atlanta Braves. The only legitamate power threats in that lineup are Andruw Jones, Gary Sheffield, and Chipper Jones. Everyone else is more or less a slap hitter. However, all of them are capable of "doing the little things" in order to score runs. The emphasis is on run production, not the distance a ball travels over the left field fence.

The St. Louis Cardinals of the 1980's are an even better example. That team utilized the artificial turf at Busch Stadium perfectly. Jack Clark was the only power hitter in the lineup. Everyone else was capable of stealing bases or hitting for average. Tommy Herr drove in over one hundred runs in 1985, even though he hit only eight homeruns. The Sox don't have anyone on pace to drive in one hundred this season.

You're preaching to the choir with me. I grew up watching the Go-Go Sox where power was something other clubs had.

kermittheefrog
06-02-2003, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
What I would love to know is this: where exactly is it written that a team must hit with power in order to win? There are several teams that have managed to win games in spite of not having a large collection of homerun hitters in the lineup. Look at the Atlanta Braves. The only legitamate power threats in that lineup are Andruw Jones, Gary Sheffield, and Chipper Jones. Everyone else is more or less a slap hitter. However, all of them are capable of "doing the little things" in order to score runs. The emphasis is on run production, not the distance a ball travels over the left field fence.


The Braves are leading the NL in home runs and slugging percentage. Not exactly a team that doesn't hit for power.

edit: I would say you don't need to hit for a ton of power but you do need to get on base a ton. You simply can't score runs without people on base. The Sox don't get on base too much. We only have two guys who are getting on base at a better than average clip, Frank Thomas and D'Angelo Jimenez.

DrCrawdad
06-02-2003, 10:59 PM
Originally posted by Konerkoholic
...It's so embarassing to see how ESPN views the White Sox. When they win, they get a 10- second highlight at the end of SportsCenter. When they lose, they get made fun of. It's depressing.

AMEN!

MarkEdward
06-02-2003, 11:04 PM
Team OBP: .315
Team OBP: .315
Team OBP: .315

You want a reason for losing? How 'bout a lack of getting on base? We're actually drawing walks (seventh in the AL), but we're not getting hits (13th in AL).

RKMeibalane
06-02-2003, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
The Braves are leading the NL in home runs and slugging percentage. Not exactly a team that doesn't hit for power.

My mistake. I wasn't aware they had been hitting for more power this season. That team is not designed for power hitting, though. I know Furcal has eight homers, which is more than I would have expected from him. His primary function as their leadoff hitter is to get on base.

Originally posted by kermittheefrogt
edit: I would say you don't need to hit for a ton of power but you do need to get on base a ton. You simply can't score runs without people on base. The Sox don't get on base too much. We only have two guys who are getting on base at a better than average clip, Frank Thomas and D'Angelo Jimenez.

All the more reason for the Sox to find players who either hit for average or take a lot of walks. KW needs to pay closer attention to what other teams are doing. He might learn something.

Tragg
06-03-2003, 12:00 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Look at the Atlanta Braves. The only legitamate power threats in that lineup are Andruw Jones, Gary Sheffield, and Chipper Jones. Everyone else is more or less a slap hitter.

Three good power hitters is certainly sufficient power.
Three is all we really have ( at their best): Konerko, Lee and Ordonez; throw in Thomas if you want, but Atl doesn't use a DH. The complete lack of hitting at the two corner infield positions is kiling us.

I think our main problem is hitting, no question.

I know defense can't be measured statistically (or very accurately anyway) but I think it's important. The Yankees get to a lot of balls up the middle; anyway, they have other attributes no one can match. Defense also energizes a team - and the crowd.

Minnesota is a small market/budget team that excels defensively when they are good. I've seen Minny win 2 rings with their defensive clubs - Billy Beane hasn't been to a WS. I also saw Minny tatoo Billy Beane in last year's playoffs.

MarkEdward
06-03-2003, 12:57 AM
Originally posted by Tragg

I know defense can't be measured statistically (or very accurately anyway) but I think it's important. The Yankees get to a lot of balls up the middle; anyway, they have other attributes no one can match.

Really? I've always thought that the Yankees have one of the worst up-the-middle defenses in the league. Posada has never been considered a defensive wiz (although his hitting more than makes up for that); Jeter looks like he's treading water when getting balls hit to the right or left of him; Soriano's range factor is below average for a second baseman; Bernie Williams is getting old and doesn't allow him the range that he used to have.

Aside from this, the 2003 Yankees rank 12th in the AL in defensive efficiency. Last year, they ranked ninth.

Minnesota is a small market/budget team that excels defensively when they are good. I've seen Minny win 2 rings with their defensive clubs - Billy Beane hasn't been to a WS. I also saw Minny tatoo Billy Beane in last year's playoffs.

If it weren't for Koch's blow up in game five, then the A's make the ALCS.

Dan H
06-03-2003, 06:25 AM
Defense is still very important in baseball. Yes, the 2003 Sox are losing mostly because of their season long slump, but they may have won some close games with good pitching and defense. The simple fact is teams don't slug their way to the Series because they eventually will face tough pitching in the playoffs. Besides, in this day and age, you have a lot of good hitting teams. You give a good team extra outs, you will lose.

One way to win is to not make excuses. Hawk and DJ made excuses for Valentin on a ball Valentin should have caught. The organization blames the Players Union, the fans and the media for all its troubles. When does someone look in the mirror? Probably never, and that is as big a problem as the defense.

DrCrawdad
06-03-2003, 06:42 AM
IIRC Phil Rogers stated in his WSI Chat that the way players move up thru the Sox system is by slugging, not by defense.

hold2dibber
06-03-2003, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by Dan H
Defense is still very important in baseball. Yes, the 2003 Sox are losing mostly because of their season long slump, but they may have won some close games with good pitching and defense. The simple fact is teams don't slug their way to the Series because they eventually will face tough pitching in the playoffs. Besides, in this day and age, you have a lot of good hitting teams. You give a good team extra outs, you will lose.

One way to win is to not make excuses. Hawk and DJ made excuses for Valentin on a ball Valentin should have caught. The organization blames the Players Union, the fans and the media for all its troubles. When does someone look in the mirror? Probably never, and that is as big a problem as the defense.

There is no question that defense is important, but the Sox defense isn't THAT bad. If they were scoring runs at anywhere near last year's clip, they'd be at least .500 and right in the hunt for the division lead, regardless of their defensive shortcomings. There is no question that the Sox defense leaves something to be desired. But the team, as constituted this off season, was built to win by scoring a lot of runs and having good (but not great) pitching. The pitching has been about as good as expected (although one would have thought Buehrle would be putting up the Loaiza numbers and vice versa). The defense is about what we could have expected (a bit below average). The offense, OTOH, has been an abomination. .315 OBP and .206 avg w/RISP. That's all you need to know.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-03-2003, 09:01 AM
Look, there isn't a Sox Fan here that loves more than me the good pitching & tight defense of the Go-Go era Sox. But pining for those days isn't going to make the Sox of the future into winners. Look at the league stats and quietly give up the ghost of those warm memories. We ought to be thinking of ways to WIN championships, not relive our childhood.

In 1968 the American League averaged 3.41 runs per game. In 2002 the average was 4.81 runs per game. That's actually DOWN from 2000 when the average was 5.30. In other words, the league's hitters are scoring an extra 1.4 runs per game over what they did 35 years ago. That's a whopping 41% increase from the days of Go-Go baseball.

There are a million reasons why teams score more runs today than they did back then, and I'm not about to list them (again) on this board. We all know them.

The '03 Sox aren't scoring runs and no amount of better pitching or tighter defense can make up the difference. Going back to Go-Go baseball is a prescription for disaster.

rmusacch
06-03-2003, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by Jurr
Ohhh..the Mike Miller thing was pretty smart, if you asked me. We get to drink with Shane Battier at the local Flying Saucer all the time. He said that he talked to West about that trade, and the reason Miller was picked up was to lure his best buddy after next season! And, there is a good chance it will happen!
But, back to the Sox. They do need to be blown apart. They're horrible, point blank. Yes, they're only six under, and they're not too far back. Yes, they still have time to make some miracle turnaround and dominate the Central. It's just not going to happen because the combination of the talents of the players and chemistry of this team sucks.

Who is Mike Miller's best buddy? What part of Memphis do you live in?

Dadawg_77
06-03-2003, 09:12 AM
While not the greatest stat in the world, well no defenive stat is, the Sox are fourth in the AL in defensive efficiency under the Baseball Prospectus formula. (.7183). It is a measure of how many balls hit into play a teams makes outs on. The Yankees are in the lower end of the pack, 12th, with .6888. The White Sox are fifth in MLB with Zone rating of .866. Zone rating is judge by keeping score, every ball hit into play in enter into sheet by which zone it landed into, and what type of hit it was (Grounder, Pop up, line drive). Each fielder is given certain zones they have to field (changes on which type of hit), and the ZR represents how many playable balls a team gets to (I think). You can find more about this by searching for Scoresheet score keeping. The Sox are 25 in range factor (PO+A)/9 and are 13th in errors.

The difference between avg player and web gem artist is greatly smaller then your difference between your avg player and Ruthian hitter, thus you need to judge players by offence abilites.

Dadawg_77
06-03-2003, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by rmusacch
Who is Mike Miller's best buddy? What part of Memphis do you live in?

T-Mac?

harwar
06-03-2003, 09:37 AM
JR has exactly the kind of team he wanted to build.Its a team of DHs'.Any player who showed any signs of power was on the fast track to the bigs.There is a slight problem with this plan,WHAT DO YOU DO IF THEY DON,T HIT!!Scoring a lot of runs per game will cover bad defense,bad pitching,& even bad managing.I think the reason why nothing has been done yet,is that they have NO IDEA what to do.All i know is that i was really pumped for this season and i can't believe that its OVER ALLREADY.What a big f#cking bummer this year turned out to be.This was supposed to our year,what with the off-season moves,the improvements to the park,and the all star game.- BUMMER,BUMMER,BUMMER - .

ma-gaga
06-03-2003, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by Tragg
I also saw Minny tatoo Billy Beane in last year's playoffs.

um yeah... They didn't "tatoo" the A's. It was about as even a series as you can get. One blowout for each team, 3 close games. The Twins won because of defense and "luck" more than anything else.

Koch and Guardado's 3 run home runs equaled out. End of story.

The Sox should address their defense. I know offense wins games, and their defense isn't the MAIN problem, but there have been 3-4 games so far this year, that the defense lost the game for them. That and horrible "luck". Whatever, it's an organizational flaw, and it's NOT going to be corrected until they blow up the team.

Get rid of F.Thomas, get rid of Konerko, get rid of Valentine and plug in a speed defensive type SS that can't hit (take a loss at one position and don't worry about it). Get Borchard some AB's in CF. Move C.Lee to first base. Find a defensive left fielder that can hit/mash. Get Olivo some more AB's. Let Crede be.

They have some pieces, but defensively, it's a mess. And I am seeing the team quit in games. ugh, it's sickening to me. :angry: Hey Kenny, "get a better plan".

Lip Man 1
06-03-2003, 10:03 AM
The Sox have tried since 2000 to slug their way to a title....it hasn't worked has it?

Three out of the four seasons the hitting coupled with persistent problems in defense, pitching and situtational play have doomed this club.

Like it or not, it's time to try something different.

But remember it cost millions to buy the best pitchers and it takes a few years to develop a minor league system that preaches base running, execution and fundamentals (a la' "the Orioles way...") even if the Sox tomorrow decide to go "back to the future" (i.e. play like they did in the 50's and 60's) it'll be four years before we see any results.

Like I said in another thread I can't recall ever feeling this hopeless about the Sox situation as today. I don't know what the hell they can do.

And give Reynolds credit...in the spring training finale of Baseball Tonight he said he couldn't pick the Sox to win the division. He said they had to many holes especially on defense.

Lip

voodoochile
06-03-2003, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by ma-gaga
The Sox should address their defense. I know offense wins games, and their defense isn't the MAIN problem, but there have been 3-4 games so far this year, that the defense lost the game for them. That and horrible "luck". Whatever, it's an organizational flaw, and it's NOT going to be corrected until they blow up the team.

Get rid of F.Thomas, get rid of Konerko, get rid of Valentine and plug in a speed defensive type SS that can't hit (take a loss at one position and don't worry about it). Get Borchard some AB's in CF. Move C.Lee to first base. Find a defensive left fielder that can hit/mash. Get Olivo some more AB's. Let Crede be.

They have some pieces, but defensively, it's a mess. And I am seeing the team quit in games. ugh, it's sickening to me. :angry: Hey Kenny, "get a better plan".

Hey give them credit, some days they quit before the game...

gosox41
06-03-2003, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by Jurr
Man, they had a loooonng examination of the Sox tonight. They said that Jerry Manuel still isn't being dumped, and that KW and JR are sitting tight. But, they said that everybody's getting restless over the situation and that most people think JM won't survive this trip. Harold Reynolds said that the Sox have had their achilles heel for years---defense. He said that the defense makes pitchers feel like they've gotta K everyone, and that makes them miss spots. (Hence the reason Kip Wells did so well with Pittsburgh).
Then, they said...."if you look at it, they don't have any of the tools to win...." Some pitching, no defense, no speed, no hitting. Bobby Valentine said that Jerry Manuel is a helluva guy and this isn't totally his fault. He put a lot of blame on Frank Thomas, dissing him for bringing in Hriniak, not taking blame for his lack of situational hitting, no hitting with RISP, and many other things. Peter Gammons said that no one is more wired into the franchise than Ken Harrelson, and he was surprised to hear Hawk say today, "The Sox are playing to lose, something needs to be done now."
To finish the thing off, Reynolds says, " This team needs to be blown up, the entire philosophy of the ballclub needs to change to include defense and speed, along with some timely hitting."
Another highlight was talking about how the Indians pitched around everyone this series to get to Konerko, and how fall he's fallen. They made fun of his 1 for 29 slump. Damn....they said that the Sox were in trouble, and they're all wondering when the changes are going to be made.
This is the possibly the worst team in baseball. I mean, they've got some of the best talent in the league, no doubt. Garland, Colon, Buehrle, all of those guys would be great on another ballclub, and will probably soon get that chance. Everybody sits around and just expects things to change instead of doing it themselves, the morale is terrible, and it's all related to the structuring of this team. The team is going to need to acquire some speed guys that can hit for average, no more mashers, and dump the core of this team. They should keep guys like Ordonez, Jimenez, and Marte, guys that have an enormous upside, and get rid of guys like White, Colon, Buehrle, Thomas, Valentin, and others. These are all guys that #1) Don't really want to be on this team #2)Guys that can't get the job done and #3)Guys that could bring in some nice talent with trades. A fiery guy that harps on fundamentals is what this team needs. I'm telling you...it's totally necessary.
For example, I would like to bring up my hometown Basketball team, the Memphis Grizzlies. This year, they had some new talent, alot of hope, and a coach that was laid back and very laid back. They sputtered out the gate to a 0-13 start, and they decided to bring in a fundamentally strong, fiery coach named Hubie Brown. Now, they finished their season with a club record for wins, even despite the 0-13 start, and things look bright.
That's exactly what the Sox need. Someone like Backman that can get this team going, fired up, and can coach the young sharp talent that comes in when this team gets rebuilt. It's gotta happen, and it's gonna happen. Welcome to disappointing year #3.

It's good to see that I'm not the only one who thinks this team pretty much needs to be blown up and start over ASAP.

Bob

gosox41
06-03-2003, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Start by getting a GM as good as Jerry West and it will go a long way toward solving the Sox problems...


Do you mean Kenny Williams is not going to lead this team to a World Series???

gosox41
06-03-2003, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Most unsuccessful teams are run like the anti-A's. Really winning starts with a plan and it doesn't necessarily have to start with sabermetrics. Pat Gillick runs his team differently than Beane but he's successful because he has a plan. You can say that about a lot of GMs. Although I'd say it helps a lot to be running things as efficiently as Beane and crew.


:KW
I have a plan. It's to give up to much and get to little in return in trades. Also, I must sign the cheapest first round picks I can get my hands on. Lastly, my goal is to alienate the players as well as the manager by my constant hovering around the clubhouse and second guessing of everything.

nixsox
06-03-2003, 10:46 AM
I agree with you but don't you think that Valentin would be one of the guys you would want to keep? He seems like the only one that wants to win.

joecrede
06-03-2003, 10:48 AM
People who say defense is the problem are being let off easy. Tell us which players should be replaced because of their (lack of) defensive prowess.

dickallen15
06-03-2003, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
People who say defense is the problem are being let off easy. Tell us which players should be replaced because of their (lack of) defensive prowess.

Valentin, Jimenez, whoever plays 1B, Borchard should be in LF so a new CF is very much needed. The only position players who are defensively accectable are Crede (is he going to hit) , Ordonez and Olivo.

ChiSoxBobette
06-03-2003, 11:16 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Anyone that says the Sox problem this season is defense is a moron. The offense has been the third worst in baseball. They are much closer to hitting like the Tigers than the Yankees. Thats really the team's problem. The starting pitching as a whole has actually been good even with Buehrle's crazy mad sucking. With Loaiza pitching like Pedro Martinez and Bartolo Colon pitching like Bartolo Colon they more than make up for the mediocrity of the rest of the rotation.

Plus none of the White Sox starters has been absolutely abysmal like last year. Both Gary Glover and Todd Ritchie were among the worst starters in baseball, keeping those types off the mound has been addition by subtraction in the rotation. As for the bullpen, well thats where I really blame Manuel for being clueless. He doesn't use his best reliever enough, that would be Marte. Right now Marte has less IP then games played, Manuel isn't giving Marte enough chance to get righties out, which Marte can do well. And using Rick White about as much as he uses Marte is inexplicable. Jerry Manuel just can't run a bullpen. It doesn't have much if anything to do with bad defense. And you know who wins every year with bad defense? The A's and the Yankees. Because they can hit.

Okay thats the end of my rant. [/QUOTE

I could'nt agree with you more. At the beginning of the year Ed Farmer said that he thought we had one of the best bullpens in the AL but it all depended on in how Manuel uses it and as we've seen he does'nt know how to use it. As far as Marte he should be in there if the Sox are winning in the 6th,7th or 8th and then we give the ball to Koch. Those are the only 2 relief pitchers we have right now in the bullpen. Glover,White, Gordon - Trade,Dump,Trade, Sanders, Wunsch - keep both of them.
This team in the off season needed to get strong up the middle and right now the weakest part of those 4 players is Valentin he just looks like he does'nt want to be here. Take for instant the Sunday game where Koch looked like he was going to get out of an inning without getting scored on with a little popup behind 2nd base and what does Valentin do when he gets his glove on it drop the ball and we loose does anyone think a real ss would have dropped that ball - NO WAY, A-rod, Jeter, Garciapara(sorry I don't know how to spell his name)would have grabbed that ball easy.
:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

PaleHoseGeorge
06-03-2003, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by dickallen15
Originally posted by joecrede
People who say defense is the problem are being let off easy. Tell us which players should be replaced because of their (lack of) defensive prowess.

Valentin, Jimenez, whoever plays 1B, Borchard should be in LF so a new CF is very much needed. The only position players who are defensively accectable are Crede (is he going to hit) , Ordonez and Olivo.

Well thanks for making space for Mr. Short Legs in RF on your Super-D version of the Sox. For the record, Borchard will never play LF on any Sox team that also has Mr. Short Legs; Borchard has the better arm. :smile:

Are you certain Crede is going to hit major league pitching or was that just a Freudian slip on your part above? :D:

maurice
06-03-2003, 12:01 PM
SS is, without question, our biggest need position. Valentin seems like a good guy and might make a good coach some day. OTOH, he never could field, and didn't get on base or steal much over his career. His only redeeming features statistically were his solid HR totals and his ability to hit with RISP against RHPs. At this stage of his career, he can't hit and still can't field. He represents a huge hole at one of the most important positions, and we have no one to replace him.

All I'm asking for is a young SS with good defensive ability, good speed, and an OBP > .320. Heck, at this point, I'd be happy with a stopgap equivalent to Omar Vizquel + a decent minor league prospect.

captain54
06-03-2003, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by Konerkoholic
It's so embarassing to see how ESPN views the White Sox. When they win, they get a 10- second highlight at the end of SportsCenter. When they lose, they get made fun of. It's depressing.

If Sox fans have an chance in hell of seriously thinking about a World Series on the South side, this seems to be the only possible way anything is going to change with this organization....

Reinsdorf & Co. can ignore the fans and the local media, but a public ridiculing from the national media and a growing reputation as a crappy organization is something Reiney cannot run from....

this is not a championship caliber ballclub and even if by some stretch of the imagination we won the Central it would be another three and out in the playoffs.....

there's a sudden spotlight on the ineptitude of the Sox organization now, but we Sox fans have been dealing with it for a long time now.....

dickallen15
06-03-2003, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Valentin, Jimenez, whoever plays 1B, Borchard should be in LF so a new CF is very much needed. The only position players who are defensively accectable are Crede (is he going to hit) , Ordonez and Olivo.

Well thanks for making space for Mr. Short Legs in RF on your Super-D version of the Sox. For the record, Borchard will never play LF on any Sox team that also has Mr. Short Legs; Borchard has the better arm. :smile:

Are you certain Crede is going to hit major league pitching or was that just a Freudian slip on your part above? :D: [/QUOTE]

It actually was a question, because he looks like he couldn't hit .250 for an American Legion team right now. I doubt they would move Ordonez to left to make room for Borchard, that's why I said Borchard in LF. I do think Ordonez will be traded in the next year, with the amount he's getting paid and his contract being up. Borchard will probably move to RF then. There are going to be a lot of tumbleweeds in the seats of US Cellular Field the next few seasons.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-03-2003, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
It actually was a question, because he looks like he couldn't hit .250 for an American Legion team right now. I doubt they would move Ordonez to left to make room for Borchard, that's why I said Borchard in LF. I do think Ordonez will be traded in the next year, with the amount he's getting paid and his contract being up. Borchard will probably move to RF then. There are going to be a lot of tumbleweeds in the seats of US Cellular Field the next few seasons.

Very well. For the record, I'm all in favor of building a team with better defense, too. However I'm with Froggie on this one. The real upside for the Sox is building an offense that values getting on base over one that mashes the ball. Defense is a peripheral issue.

dickallen15
06-03-2003, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Very well. For the record, I'm all in favor of building a team with better defense, too. However I'm with Froggie on this one. The real upside for the Sox is building an offense that values getting on base over one that mashes the ball. Defense is a peripheral issue.



I agree, but it would be nice if they would have adequate defenders at every position. This Valentin experiment or whatever you want to call it has gone on long enough.

SoxxoS
06-03-2003, 01:00 PM
I think we should bring back Greg Norton. :D:

dickallen15
06-03-2003, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
I think we should bring back Greg Norton.


:D:



With Slappy Caruso to his left

chosk8
06-03-2003, 01:12 PM
Oakland just selected Omar Quintanilla as the 3rd pick in the ROUND 1 SUPPLEMENTAL. Beane got Williams again. That was basically our pick for Durham. Instead we get Jon Adkins.

chosk8
06-03-2003, 01:20 PM
wrong thread, sorry

NewyorkSoxFan
06-03-2003, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
There is no question that defense is important, but the Sox defense isn't THAT bad. If they were scoring runs at anywhere near last year's clip, they'd be at least .500 and right in the hunt for the division lead, regardless of their defensive shortcomings. There is no question that the Sox defense leaves something to be desired. But the team, as constituted this off season, was built to win by scoring a lot of runs and having good (but not great) pitching. The pitching has been about as good as expected (although one would have thought Buehrle would be putting up the Loaiza numbers and vice versa). The defense is about what we could have expected (a bit below average). The offense, OTOH, has been an abomination. .315 OBP and .206 avg w/RISP. That's all you need to know.

Well if we look at the last two years we were scoring runs and we still failed to win. Defense is a MAJOR problem along with absolutely no TEAM SPEED. Why do you think JM keeps shoving Harris down our throat, b/c he at least has some speed.

I agree with Harold Reynolds, this defense has been bad since '00 and other than "Choice" they have failed to address it. We have one-dimensional players who all will end up as DH's in this league at some point.

Valentine was right as well Frank blows, he hardly ever drives in the big runs, and of course never blames himself, even if it isn't his fault if he was a true leader. However I don't think you need to blow this team up, I think making some choices, PK or Carlos, or Frank as your DH, get a defensive first baseman who hits for avg, and a CF who is fast and also hits for avg. Put Borchard in left which makes you solid at the corners. Trade Valentine, and get a ss who is younger faster, and KEEP our pitching.

If history has taught us anything- Just ask the Diamonbacks-Pitching and Defense wins championships, not good sluggers.

NYSF.


What a rant. :D:

hold2dibber
06-03-2003, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Well if we look at the last two years we were scoring runs and we still failed to win. Defense is a MAJOR problem along with absolutely no TEAM SPEED. Why do you think JM keeps shoving Harris down our throat, b/c he at least has some speed.

I agree with Harold Reynolds, this defense has been bad since '00 and other than "Choice" they have failed to address it. We have one-dimensional players who all will end up as DH's in this league at some point.

Valentine was right as well Frank blows, he hardly ever drives in the big runs, and of course never blames himself, even if it isn't his fault if he was a true leader. However I don't think you need to blow this team up, I think making some choices, PK or Carlos, or Frank as your DH, get a defensive first baseman who hits for avg, and a CF who is fast and also hits for avg. Put Borchard in left which makes you solid at the corners. Trade Valentine, and get a ss who is younger faster, and KEEP our pitching.

If history has taught us anything- Just ask the Diamonbacks-Pitching and Defense wins championships, not good sluggers.

NYSF.


What a rant. :D:

I would argue that while defense has been somewhat of a problem the last two years, the biggest problem has been starting pitching. The starting pitching this year is good enough to compete in the AL Central. And so is the defense -- assuming that the offense produces anywhere near where you'd expect it (based upon historical performance) to produce. It is the lack of offense that has doomed this team this year, plain and simple. If PK, Crede, Valentin Frank, Maggs and Lee were hitting like they hit last year, this team would be right in the thick of things, despite the team's defensive shortcomings.

With that said, I'm all in favor of a better defense and a more balanced team certainly would be a good idea. Unfortunately, it is easy to say "we should get a fast CF who gets on base" than to actually get one. Do you have any specific suggestions for which players you would target (e.g., a fast CF that hits for average, a good defensive 1B that hits for average, and a SS that is younger and faster than Valentin)?

NewyorkSoxFan
06-03-2003, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I would argue that while defense has been somewhat of a problem the last two years, the biggest problem has been starting pitching. The starting pitching this year is good enough to compete in the AL Central. And so is the defense -- assuming that the offense produces anywhere near where you'd expect it (based upon historical performance) to produce. It is the lack of offense that has doomed this team this year, plain and simple. If PK, Crede, Valentin Frank, Maggs and Lee were hitting like they hit last year, this team would be right in the thick of things, despite the team's defensive shortcomings.

With that said, I'm all in favor of a better defense and a more balanced team certainly would be a good idea. Unfortunately, it is easy to say "we should get a fast CF who gets on base" than to actually get one. Do you have any specific suggestions for which players you would target (e.g., a fast CF that hits for average, a good defensive 1B that hits for average, and a SS that is younger and faster than Valentin)?



You made the statement that the defense has been "good enough". That is the problem I have with the philosophy of how this team is built. Against teams like Oakland, or the Yankees or even the Twins, you aren't going to go in there and mash against those teams. You have to execute offensively and defensively, and we can't. How many times have we not fielded a bunt properly or thrown to the wrong base, its things like that, that get you beat against good teams. It's not just the errors that show whether a team is good defensively, but its the mental errors as well that kill the Sox. I'll just use the example of MB in Toronto with a tailor made DP ball to Tony G. He boots it they score 5 runs, good teams get there pitchers out of jams when they can defensively.

As far as replacements, well I don't remember every player that was available this winter, but I think David Segui has been a guy that I have liked since he was in Seattle and he is a very good firstbaseman and a decent hitter. They tried getting Erstad ly to play center which would have been a good move, but I would have been happy keeping Chris, he is no worst than Rowand.

You look at Seattle, that's how you build a team, not a ton of sluggers or all-stars but very good defensively, and timely hitting and adequate pitching at best. We shouldn't look at the A's they, its the Mariners who have built some great teams despite losing all-stars.

NYSF

ma-gaga
06-03-2003, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
You look at Seattle, that's how you build a team, not a ton of sluggers or all-stars but very good defensively, and timely hitting and adequate pitching at best. We shouldn't look at the A's they, its the Mariners who have built some great teams despite losing all-stars.

NYSF

Yeah, but the Mariners have a team payroll of $88MM. There's no way Reinsy will spring for that. That's why the A's model is amazing, it works for half that.

That's what the Twins are going to run into in the next two years, the choice between their current team for $60+MM payroll or trading away their overpaid guys.

Either way, the W.Sox organization needs a plan and to have the gumption to stick to it. Look more at what Theo Epstein's done in Boston (ok, I just completely ignored my budget argument from above. REGARDLESS, follow me here...) . He's ignored the media jackals whom WERE ROASTING him for letting Urbina go. He's had a plan, a budget and enough nuts to stick to it and to ignore the fans whom think they know better. The whole Kim for Hillenbrand trade is a prime example of how to make your team better on the cheap. Theo will make that team better and cheaper, if he can just get Pedro to quit whining about his precious contract extension.

The W.Sox have pieces to put together a team, but they don't have a cohesive plan. Despite what KW says.

It's sickening. :angry: It's maddening, and it pisses me off.

Dadawg_77
06-03-2003, 02:54 PM
Jason Gaimbi vs Mark Grace? Who do you want? If you answer Grace you are either a Cub fan who is a ****ing moron or a ****ing moron. If you asking what the point is, Gaimbi is a horrible firstbase man defensively, but you wouldn't replace him with better first baseman who couldn't hit.

dickallen15
06-03-2003, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Jason Gaimbi vs Mark Grace? Who do you want? If you answer Grace you are either a Cub fan who is a ****ing moron or a ****ing moron. If you asking what the point is, Gaimbi is a horrible firstbase man defensively, but you wouldn't replace him with better first baseman who couldn't hit.

Yes, but the Yankees with potential HOF'ers everywhere, with a rotation so good Weaver, who would have been a #2 on the Sox, couldn't break into, didn't make the world series . Their major weakness last year was defense. The outfield range was weak, Jeter is overrated defensively, although still 10 times better than Valentin, Giambi is a stiff a first

NewyorkSoxFan
06-03-2003, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Jason Gaimbi vs Mark Grace? Who do you want? If you answer Grace you are either a Cub fan who is a ****ing moron or a ****ing moron. If you asking what the point is, Gaimbi is a horrible firstbase man defensively, but you wouldn't replace him with better first baseman who couldn't hit.

That's not the point, or were they compared. Every team needs different things, and if you think you can plug a player anywhere you would be a moron. The Yankees needed hitting coming off of the 98 season. They struggled to score runs. But if you remember correctly they won WS titles with a guy named Tito Martinez who wasn't a great slugger but a very good defender and a cluthch hitter with some power. I don't seem to remember teams killing themselves to sign Tito, or Broscious but they were good players. So I don't understand your point.

NYSF

maurice
06-03-2003, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber (replying to NewyorkSoxFan)
Do you have any specific suggestions for which players you would target?

It's very hard to say, which is why my similar comments were in hot pink. It seems that KW agrees with our assessment, but (Royce Clayton excluded) KW hasn't been able to identify replacements either.

Originally posted by dickallen15
I doubt they would move Ordonez to left to make room for Borchard.

It would be daft to play Borchard in LF while Ordonez plays RF. Then again, I don't doubt for a minute the JM is daft enough to do it. We'd still need a CF to plug between them. Fortunately, as of this afternoon, we're up to three solid, young candidates.

hold2dibber
06-03-2003, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by ma-gaga
Either way, the W.Sox organization needs a plan and to have the gumption to stick to it. Look more at what Theo Epstein's done in Boston (ok, I just completely ignored my budget argument from above. REGARDLESS, follow me here...) . He's ignored the media jackals whom WERE ROASTING him for letting Urbina go. He's had a plan, a budget and enough nuts to stick to it and to ignore the fans whom think they know better. The whole Kim for Hillenbrand trade is a prime example of how to make your team better on the cheap.

Actually, according to Jayson Stark (http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/stark_jayson/1560757.html), Kim will cost the Red Sox about $5 million more than Hillenbrand over the next 2 years.

NewyorkSoxFan
06-03-2003, 03:11 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ma-gaga
[B]Yeah, but the Mariners have a team payroll of $88MM. There's no way Reinsy will spring for that. That's why the A's model is amazing, it works for half that.

That's what the Twins are going to run into in the next two years, the choice between their current team for $60+MM payroll or trading away their overpaid guys.

Either way, the W.Sox organization needs a plan and to have the gumption to stick to it. Look more at what Theo Epstein's done in Boston (ok, I just completely ignored my budget argument from above. REGARDLESS, follow me here...) . He's ignored the media jackals whom WERE ROASTING him for letting Urbina go. He's had a plan, a budget and enough nuts to stick to it and to ignore the fans whom think they know better. The whole Kim for Hillenbrand trade is a prime example of how to make your team better on the cheap. Theo will make that team better and cheaper, if he can just get Pedro to quit whining about his precious contract extension.


I agree with you about the payroll, and I feel we honestly won't come close to seeing a WS until he commits to at least 75 million dollars. Of course having some brains would help as well.

However as far as KW's plan goes, nobody was complaining about his plan in Feb and March. And you can all come out now and say you did, but the overwhelming majority of fans on this board thought this team was built to win a WS. He had a plan it didn't work so its time for a new one. This has really been a plan thats failed for the last 3 years, so I guess we shouldn't be surprised.

Although we are all depressed about the season so far, and it is unlikely we will win this division, we can't overreact and say "blow it up". This team has some pieces, but we need someone who can make some smart moves, and a different direction.

NYSF

hold2dibber
06-03-2003, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by maurice
It very hard to say, which is why my similar comments were in hot pink. It seems that KW agrees with our assessment, but (Royce Clayton excluded) KW hasn't been able to identify replacements either.

And this is my point. It is easy to sit here and say what this team needs. It is much harder to get it. In my opinion, KW did a damn fine job this past offseason putting together a team that has the talent to contend for the AL Central title with the budget he was given. Moreover, with Colon and Buehrle at the top of the rotation, the team would have a chance to beat just about anybody in a short playoff series. The problem is, the hitters simply have not performed anywhere close to the level that we reasonably could have expected them to perform at. Maybe it is time to blow up this team and start from scratch with a different philosophy, I don't know. But it sure as hell wasn't time to do it last off season, so I don't criticize for not going out and getting a fast CF (Lofton? Grissom? Who else was out there?) or a better defensive SS (Clayton? Bordick?), etc. This team, with all its warts, has the talent to contend. That they are sucking up the joint (and have a worse record than the Blue Jays, the Orioles, and several other teams with much less talent) is an indictment of the players, the coaches and Jerry Manuel. I for one don't blame KW.

Dadawg_77
06-03-2003, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
That's not the point, or were they compared. Every team needs different things, and if you think you can plug a player anywhere you would be a moron. The Yankees needed hitting coming off of the 98 season. They struggled to score runs. But if you remember correctly they won WS titles with a guy named Tito Martinez who wasn't a great slugger but a very good defender and a cluthch hitter with some power. I don't seem to remember teams killing themselves to sign Tito, or Broscious but they were good players. So I don't understand your point.

NYSF

First off where did 98 come from? Secondly the Yankee led the AL in runs scored in 1998, second in 1997, third in 99, 6th in 2000 (5.41 a game), 5th in 2001 (4.99) and first last year (Jason's first year). Not sure where the they needed help scoring runs after 98 statement came from. The Angels were fourth last year at 5.25.
Oh in last years playoff the Angles lead all playoff teams with 6.35 runs a game. Second was the Yankees at 6.25. San Fran was third with 5.2. The Yankees don't meet up with the lighting hot Angles in the divisional round, they beat any team in that first round. So Lip no the White Sox didn't out slug teams to win the WS but the Angles did.

This team needs to hit more then anything else. If you don't realize it then your not seeing it, confined to what you hear people talk about in the paper or on TV. Look at the truth. This team is avg defensively but pis poor offensively so let hurt the offensive to improve our d, that just saving your nose in spite your face.

Dadawg_77
06-03-2003, 03:39 PM
Here my team, tried to get guys who play bad defense. Make your all defensive team and this team will smoke you, given equal pitching.

1B - Jason Giambi
2B - Soriano
SS - Jeter
3B - Mike Sweeney
C - Mike Piazza
OF - Manny Ramirez
OF - Bernie Williams
OF - Pujols

So can you name me a team that plays great D that can beat this one given equal pitching? I really don't think so. Point is offense wins, defense wins was a moniker made by people who couldn't score.

SouthSideHitman
06-03-2003, 04:09 PM
The thing is, the Sox don't need to be stellar defensivly or score 15 runs a game with the way our staff has been going, they just need to tighten up in the field and loosen up at the plate. If they could avoid atrocious defensive plays like that 8-run innning in Toronto with Bueherle on the mound that would save them a two or three games a month. Also, if they could hit say, .260 or .270 (heck, now I'd be ecstatic with .250) with RISP and come back in a few games and not make all the wins squekers, they'd also pick up a few games.

I've been pleasantly surprised by the staff and I think that the bullpen is OK and would be better with some defense and the occasional lead which makes me think that even though this team was built for slugging, if they were just OK offensively and defensively, they'd be about six or seven games over break-even.

maurice
06-03-2003, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
This team is avg defensively but pis poor offensively so let hurt the offensive to improve our d, that just saving your nose in spite your face.

The Sox can upgrade the defense without hurting the offense. For example, Valentin is killing us on both sides. If KW can get a defensive upgrade at SS, it shouldn't hurt the team offensively, since Valentin isn't giving us much offense anyway. Similarly, a better defense CF wouldn't hurt the team offensively, since we haven't been getting any offense from that position anyway.

The offense will be fine if we start getting something other than doubleplays from the Konerko / Daubauch platoon, and if Crede, Borchard, and Olivo improve like talented young hitters should.

Ol Aches & Pains
06-03-2003, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by ma-gaga
Get rid of F.Thomas, get rid of Konerko, get rid of Valentine and plug in a speed defensive type SS that can't hit (take a loss at one position and don't worry about it).

Good idea! I wonder who the Brewers would want for Royce Clayton. :?:

ma-gaga
06-04-2003, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
However as far as KW's plan goes, nobody was complaining about his plan in Feb and March. And you can all come out now and say you did, but the overwhelming majority of fans on this board thought this team was built to win a WS.

Maybe, but I can guarentee, that I said that I didn't think the W.Sox had made up enough to beat the Twins all offseason. I said there were too many holes in the offense because of too many rookies and unprovens and I laughed at Phil Rogers arbitrary 30/190 stat.

Despite that, I severely underestimated the team. I never EVER thought that Konerko/Valentine would be this bad. I had no clue that the pitching would be this good.

Good idea! I wonder who the Brewers would want for Royce Clayton

I know he did "nothing" for the W.Sox. But with a decent surrounding cast you should be able to live with a defensive specialist. Who the hell cares if you carry a guy with a 0.242 average if your team can score 850 runs. Give up that one spot to a defensive guy. This is american league baseball, there's no pitcher to worry about. I cringe at the thought of Luis Rivas followed by Joe Mays here in interleague play. There's 6 outs a game. If the Twins are lucky they'll get a successful bunt out of that hole.

The W.Sox are going to live and die depending on their success of their rookie players. Olivo, D'Angelo, Crede, Borchard are keys. If they can play, they'll be unstoppable. Right now, it's ugly, absolutely ugly.

Dadawg_77
06-04-2003, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by maurice
The Sox can upgrade the defense without hurting the offense. For example, Valentin is killing us on both sides. If KW can get a defensive upgrade at SS, it shouldn't hurt the team offensively, since Valentin isn't giving us much offense anyway. Similarly, a better defense CF wouldn't hurt the team offensively, since we haven't been getting any offense from that position anyway.

The offense will be fine if we start getting something other than doubleplays from the Konerko / Daubauch platoon, and if Crede, Borchard, and Olivo improve like talented young hitters should.


No, that is foolish. You upgrade your offense. Don't look for a player who is good at pickin it, get a guy who can get on base and if he can pick it that's icing on the cake.

maurice
06-04-2003, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
No, that is foolish. You upgrade your offense. Don't look for a player who is good at pickin it, get a guy who can get on base and if he can pick it that's icing on the cake.

What's "foolish"? The specific point of my post (that pretty much any major league SS KW could acquire would be better defensely than Jose), or the general point (that the defensive ability of a SS is at least marginally relevant)?

Even a merely average SS has both a better OBP and a better glove than Valentin. Even if you live in pipedream land and think KW can get an elite offensive SS, the elite offensive SSs also play better D than Valentin. It's not an either-or proposition. To think otherwise is truly "foolish."

Since D is irrelevant, let's find a good hitting LF and play him at SS.

Dadawg_77
06-04-2003, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by maurice
What's "foolish"? The specific point of my post (that pretty much any major league SS KW could acquire would be better defensely than Jose), or the general point (that the defensive ability of a SS is at least marginally relevant)?

Even a merely average SS has both a better OBP and a better glove than Valentin. Even if you live in pipedream land and think KW can get an elite offensive SS, the elite offensive SSs also play better D than Valentin. It's not an either-or proposition. To think otherwise is truly "foolish."

Since D is irrelevant, let's find a good hitting LF and play him at SS.

The difference between Jose and best defensive SS is not marginally relevant. The difference between A Rod and Jose with a bat is. Thus if you are looking to replace hitters find the better bats and think of defensive secondary concern. Don't just look for a better glove. Defensive specialist just waste space on your 40 man and hurt you if you play them everyday.

Do I think the Sox are going to get A Rod, no and coming into this year there were very few SS I would rather have then Jose that were on the market. Name a better SS who was on the market this off season then Jose. Jose is a middle of the pack SS, defensivly and offencivly and I don't think the Sox could have gotten the SS a head of him.

maurice
06-04-2003, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
The difference between Jose and best defensive SS is not marginally relevant. The difference between A Rod and Jose with a bat is.

I won't bother to argue this point, as others have made the case against it already. Since the Sox have no chance of getting ARod (as you acknowledge), your point is irrelevant (though, incidentally, it supports my point that a better offensive SS is likely to be a defensive upgrade as well).

Thus if you are looking to replace hitters find the better bats and think of defensive secondary concern. Don't just look for a better glove. Defensive specialist just waste space on your 40 man and hurt you if you play them everyday.

Again, you're looking at it as an either-or proposition. It's not. I'm only asking for an average major league SS. That would represent both a significant defensive upgrade AND an offensive upgrade. Valentin's OBP is around .300 this year, which is a bit lower than his (bad) career OBP and not likely to improve at this stage of his career. ESPN lists 20 SSs with a higher OBP and more than 100 ABs as a major league SS this season. Several of these players were available this offseason and some probably are available right now. The majority of these players are better defensive SSs than Valentin, who has committed between 19 and 37 official errors (and untold unofficial errors) every year since 1996.

I'm not a KW hater, but this is a hole he needs to fill fast. Judging by some of his past moves, I don't think he disagrees.

dickallen15
06-04-2003, 12:54 PM
The problem with Valentin is his offense doesn't make up for his defense, and his defense doesn' t make up for his offense. He sucks.

Dadawg_77
06-04-2003, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by maurice
I won't bother to argue this point, as others have made the case against it already. Since the Sox have no chance of getting ARod (as you acknowledge), your point is irrelevant (though, incidentally, it supports my point that a better offensive SS is likely to be a defensive upgrade as well).


No one has made a strong case the defense matters more then offense since there isn't one. Time and time again any proper study will show you that a team's offensive measures will have a higher correlation with a team's then any defensive measure. To win baseball games and championships you need offense and pitching. The team with the best winning %in the majors, Seattle has the highest OBP. Atlanta has the fifth highest OBP and is tied with Seattle for the most wins. LA doesn't follow the pattern but their pitching have been great and has made up for thier lack of hitting. St Louis is another team off the norm but they have been just unlucky, should be able to turn it around and win the NL central. On the D side of things, Seattle is first in Zone rating, but Angels are second but only 15th (28)in wins, Twins third (6th in wins), Philly fourth(11th in Wins), The beloved fifth (24th in wins). In last is Yankees who are fourth with 33 in wins. Oakland fifth in wins is 20th in ZR.

Another take the Giants have the highest fld% at .989 and the Reds have the lowest at .973. The difference of .016 means 16 more errors over 1000 chances. .016 isn't marginal. Now I know I haven't used the greatest sample size but when you do the point still remains. There isn't much of a difference between clubs when it comes to D.


Again, you're looking at it as an either-or proposition. It's not. I'm only asking for an average major league SS. That would represent both a significant defensive upgrade AND an offensive upgrade. Valentin's OBP is around .300 this year, which is a bit lower than his (bad) career OBP and not likely to improve at this stage of his career. ESPN lists 20 SSs with a higher OBP and more than 100 ABs as a major league SS this season. Several of these players were available this offseason and some probably are available right now. The majority of these players are better defensive SSs than Valentin, who has committed between 19 and 37 official errors (and untold unofficial errors) every year since 1996.

I'm not a KW hater, but this is a hole he needs to fill fast. Judging by some of his past moves, I don't think he disagrees.

The way people were talking it was either or. Royce Clayton, who was mention, is good with a glove but couldn't AA pitching let alone major league pitching.

The SS with a better OBP then Jose
Uribe - Mile High effect so leery of getting him
Furcal - NA
Renteria - Major upswing so far this year, probably won't continue. Might have been able to get him but probably would have overpaid. Career numbers similar to Jose's
Larkin - Major Contract issues and being on the DL, makes him someone you don't want
Counsell - We already have Graf
A Rod - NA
A Gon FLA - Never would have seen this year coming, could be a fluke for first month
Guillen - NA
Graf - not a every day player
Cabera - provably could have landed him from the right price, but the price could have been to high after they gave us Colon
Vazquez - NA
Vizquel - Could have gotten him for Clev but why? No reason to give up talent to get him.
Nomar - NA
Eckstien - NA
Almonte - Minor Leaguer, and not sure if the Yankees would have dealt him. probably saving for mid season deal
Lugo - was trade so the sox could have landed him
Jeter - NA
Ray Ordonez - Clayton with a little better bat. Will head south, players tend to that with a .316 avg and .328 obp.
Woodward - probably could have gotten him but why. FA in a year if you really want him
Bordick - I thought he was going to retire, probably should
Aurilla - NA
Jimmy Rollins - NA
Jose Hernandez - Why?
A Gon Cubs - Why?
Feilpe Lopez - Why?

As you can see the list of players better right now the Jose that was available is rather thin. I tried not to include major league SS prospects since the Sox were going after division and trading for a prospect wouldn't be a good path to that goal.

Joel Perez
06-07-2003, 09:46 PM
You know, the misses and I were planning on going to visit Chicago, since I hadn't been at my hometown in 5 years....one of the things I wanted my wife to see was the White Sox play some ball, during a Fireworks night game.

Now I'm seriously thinking otherwise.

This has to be one of the worst Sox teams since the Bevo days of the late 90s. Someone said it right, this team is a bunch of DHs who want to slug there ways to beat their teams into submission.

My God, we have just turned into the Texas Rangers.

Always trying to wait for the three run homer to win games.

It makes me yearn for the days of Ozzie Guillen and Harold Baines all over again!!! Well, maybe not.........

Anyway, I've had enough. Fire the GM and Manager. Hire some baseball savvy guys. Tear up the team. It'll be like 1989/1990 all over again soon enough....hope springs eternal.

lowesox
06-07-2003, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by Joel Perez
Always trying to wait for the three run homer to win games.


This is so true. But how many 3-run shots has this team hit?

Joel Perez
06-07-2003, 10:03 PM
The key word in that setence, is "trying".
First of all, you gotta get on base. :D:

It's amazing that this team cannot accomplish this small aspect. Greg Walker must be pulling the rest of his hairs out of his head.

maurice
06-09-2003, 12:10 PM
Sorry for the late reply, but I've been out of town since last Wednesday.

Originally posted by Dadawg_77
No one has made a strong case the defense matters more then offense since there isn't one.

I'm not sure whether anyone argued that "defense matters more than offense," but I certainly haven't even tried to make that case. My point is that defense is not irrelevant. Otherwise teams (other than the Sox) would field all DHs.

Particularly, defense is not irrelevant for a SS. Even if defense is only 5% of the game (a pretty radical opinion shared by few and, IMHO, impossible to prove), that doesn't mean it's worth only 5% for each and every position. To cite two rather obvious examples, it's more important to have a good defensive SS and C than it is to have a good defensive LF, since the SS and C have much greater defensive responsibilities.

Originally posted by Dadawg_77
As you can see the list of players better right now the Jose that was available is rather thin. I tried not to include major league SS prospects since the Sox were going after division and trading for a prospect wouldn't be a good path to that goal.

But a prospect would be very nice to have at this point. You also dismiss a number of productive SSs on the grounds that the Sox would have them for only one year. How does that distinguish them from Valentin . . . or even Colon for that matter?

I agree that the list of players is "thin." My only point is that it's possible to get a major-league-average or better starting SS. By definition, most teams have one. The Sox should go out and get one also.

This is a hole that KW himself has recognized for years. He tried once to fill it but failed. I'd be very surpriised if he's not still trying.

JohnnyGoFast
06-11-2003, 05:03 AM
Originally posted by Jjav829
The defense on this team IS a problem, and while it isn't the reason we're losing this year, it has to be addressed. Every year the defense is ignored, and every year it is bad. So, your basic reasoning is if the Yankees and A's can do it, so can the Sox? That isn't a good philosophy to base your team around. The Yankees are a completely different story. Yes the Yankees do hit. You know what else they do, pitch, make big plays, play fundamental baseball, close games out. And hell, if they're not doing something right they can go find someone who can do it right. As much as I think Derek Jeter is overrated, you know what, Derek Jeter makes that play in the 10th inning yesterday. Jose Valentin doesn't. Big difference.

The bad defense is just the start of things. I couldn't agree more with Harold that this team needs to change it's philosophy. 2000 was a horrible season because it made us believe we were close to being a good team. We need hitters. I remember reading a post on ESPN by a Twins fan during a thread about whether the Sox or Twins had a better offense. His reply was basically saying that the Twins had a better offense because they had better hitters but the Sox had better sluggers . I thought he was wrong at the time but now, I couldn't agree with him more.

I agree completely with this message...

Daver
06-11-2003, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by JohnnyGoFast
I agree completely with this message...

Hey welcome aboard! :redneck

Dadawg_77
06-11-2003, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by maurice

I'm not sure whether anyone argued that "defense matters more than offense," but I certainly haven't even tried to make that case. My point is that defense is not irrelevant. Otherwise teams (other than the Sox) would field all DHs.

Particularly, defense is not irrelevant for a SS. Even if defense is only 5% of the game (a pretty radical opinion shared by few and, IMHO, impossible to prove), that doesn't mean it's worth only 5% for each and every position. To cite two rather obvious examples, it's more important to have a good defensive SS and C than it is to have a good defensive LF, since the SS and C have much greater defensive responsibilities.

Lets try this for the third time, my browser keeps going down when I try to reply.

Maybe I am not being clear with my point on defense. First no you can't have a team of all DH because it wouldn't work defensively. What I am saying is the variance between players capable of playing a certain position in major league baseball is small enough that it isn't marginal when compared to the variance between offensive contribution. Given this the variance between players' offensive capabilities has a greater effect on a team. Who would rather have Jeter, avg to below avg fielder, abut great hitter or Cesar Izturis one of best SS defensive SS in the game and AAA bat?

Assuming offense contribution is equal a great defensive LF might have a bigger marginal impact then a great defensive SS. Since managers tend not to play all bat no glove players SS but in LF, the variance between your avg fielder in LF and the best is greater then the variance between your avg SS and the best.


But a prospect would be very nice to have at this point. You also dismiss a number of productive SSs on the grounds that the Sox would have them for only one year. How does that distinguish them from Valentin . . . or even Colon for that matter?

I agree that the list of players is "thin." My only point is that it's possible to get a major-league-average or better starting SS. By definition, most teams have one. The Sox should go out and get one also.

This is a hole that KW himself has recognized for years. He tried once to fill it but failed. I'd be very surpriised if he's not still trying.

KW got Royce Clayton, which was one of the worst moves ever but serves as a good lesson on what not to do. Make sure your solution to fill a hole doesn't create a bigger hole.

Most of the players would have cost the Sox to much in terms of talent and/or money to acquire. Jose coming into this year was an avg SS or slightly above avg SS. While as he ages his greatest asset in the field will decline, not sure range has shrunk to much as of now. I dismissed a majority of the names on the list because coming into this season I saw them as equivalents or lesser players then Jose (whys?). Without the benefit of hindsight, since the Sox weren't going to get an elite SS so they were better off standing pat coming into this year.