PDA

View Full Version : Tom Gordon


mack10zie
06-01-2003, 03:34 PM
Why does Manuel continue to not only throw him out there in important positions, but leave him in there far too long. It seems to me like Gordon has been horrible in almost every appearance when the game has been on the line. It's like he blows a game, then he makes a few meaningless appearances and is great, giving Manuel confidence in him, only to blow it the next time he makes a meaningful appearance. Frustrating to say the least.

joecrede
06-01-2003, 03:41 PM
I think Flash is fine for what he is -- #3 pitcher out of the pen. I agree with you about Manuel using him wrong, he should not be pitching the 8th especially now that Koch has seemingly gotten back on track. It should be, Flash in innings 6-7, Marte in 7-8, Koch in 9.

mack10zie
06-01-2003, 03:47 PM
Exactly, especially with the day off yesterday I don't see the logic in not using Marte coming out for the 8th today, or AT LEAST after Flash gave up two leadoff singles. I think Marte had to be brought in before a run scored, Manuel should never have let Gordon let two runs up before taking him out. Well here's hoping that we can pull this one out today.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-01-2003, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
I think Flash is fine for what he is -- #3 pitcher out of the pen. I agree with you about Manuel using him wrong, he should not be pitching the 8th especially now that Koch has seemingly gotten back on track. It should be, Flash in innings 6-7, Marte in 7-8, Koch in 9.

With all the shortcomings I think most of us agree Manuel has demonstrated the last 3 seasons, his mis-use of his bullpen is the most perplexing.

In '00 I bet I could predict when and who Jerry's call to the 'pen would be for in practically every game situation. Everybody in the bullpen had a role, and everyone--including me--knew exactly what it was.

Ever since then, it has been utter confusion. What happened? Is this another example of Williams sticking his nose into Manuel's managerial duties? Or is the problem even worse? Is Manuel truly clueless and only an ex-pitcher--like Ron Schueler, for example--was able to dictate for Gandhi what moves to make and when?

I dunno. All I know is Manuel has taken major steps BACKWARD since being named Manager of the Year in '00. :angry:

SoxxoS
06-01-2003, 03:59 PM
I am kind of sick of people sticking up for Manuel b/c of KW's alleged influence. KW is not calling the dugout in the 8th inning telling Manuel to leave Flash in. Marte gets guys from both sides of the plate out.
KW didn't call Jerry and tell him to put Rios in to bunt. WHEN JOSH PAUL IS BY FAR THE BEST BUNTER ON THIS TEAM.

This is on Manuel. The players have to take part of the blame, no doubt. But I put a lot on the manager. Do you think Lou Pinella would stand for this crap?

Viva Magglio
06-01-2003, 04:03 PM
:firejerry
:firejerry
:firejerry
:firejerry
:firejerry

MHOUSE
06-01-2003, 04:13 PM
I was SCREAMING at the television "Where's Marte?" when Flash lost it in the 8th inning. He did a great job rolling up the double play to end the threat in the 7th and save Buehrle's two runners. Then I would go to Marte for the 8th and Koch for the 9th with a 3-run lead. But he starts Flash for the 8th. Ok so we'll let him roll on the good job last inning. Then suddenly he gives up a couple hits and runners on to face Bradley, a lefty. At least go to Marte NOW that their best hitter, a lefty, is up. But no he lets Flash give up the two runs and THEN puts in Marte who promptly retires the five men he faces. When you have a great reliever USE HIM! Then Rios can't lay down a bunt? UGH! This team sucks. This manager sucks. This organization sucks.

Mark is the victim in the end. He had win #3 sewn up after a well-pitched game. Now he's stuck with nada. That's the second time Flash has blown a game Buehrle should have won. :angry: :angry: :angry:

jeremyb1
06-01-2003, 04:14 PM
i wouldn't disagree going with marte but i don't see the problem in sticking with gordon. flash posted a 2.19 era this month prior to this start. he had only threw a few pitches in the 7th so he wasn't going to be fatigued by any means. and manuel was more or less right. they didn't hit the ball hard off gordon.

i want an explanation of how anyone blames gordon for giving up a bloop hit and then a seeing eye single or how manuel should've predicted that they would get bloop hits off gordon and pull him for marte. please tell me. if manuel is dead wrong here then it must mean gordon pitched really poorly right? but then why didn' they hit the ball hard?!

everyone wants someone to blame but sometimes there is no one to blame. if you want to place blame you can look to the three guys that failed to get borchard home in the 9th maybe but i don't see how you can blame anyone for the bottom of the 8th. sometimes its just poor luck. i know that's incredibly hard to take but that's how baseball works.

MHOUSE
06-01-2003, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i wouldn't disagree going with marte but i don't see the problem in sticking with gordon. flash posted a 2.19 era this month prior to this start. he had only threw a few pitches in the 7th so he wasn't going to be fatigued by any means. and manuel was more or less right. they didn't hit the ball hard off gordon.

i want an explanation of how anyone blames gordon for giving up a bloop hit and then a seeing eye single or how manuel should've predicted that they would get bloop hits off gordon and pull him for marte. please tell me. if manuel is dead wrong here then it must mean gordon pitched really poorly right? but then why didn' they hit the ball hard?!

everyone wants someone to blame but sometimes there is no one to blame. if you want to place blame you can look to the three guys that failed to get borchard home in the 9th maybe but i don't see how you can blame anyone for the bottom of the 8th. sometimes its just poor luck. i know that's incredibly hard to take but that's how baseball works.

When he's getting behind hitters (his main downfall this season) and then gives up some hits and runners, he's obviously not going to pitch out of it. The reason you have Marte is to put out the fires which he has done AWESOME this season. I can excuse going with Gordon for the 8th, but JM left him in WAY TOO LONG! Why wouldn't you go to Marte? please.

jeremyb1
06-01-2003, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
I was SCREAMING at the television "Where's Marte?" when Flash lost it in the 8th inning. He did a great job rolling up the double play to end the threat in the 7th and save Buehrle's two runners. Then I would go to Marte for the 8th and Koch for the 9th with a 3-run lead. But he starts Flash for the 8th. Ok so we'll let him roll on the good job last inning. Then suddenly he gives up a couple hits and runners on to face Bradley, a lefty. At least go to Marte NOW that their best hitter, a lefty, is up. But no he lets Flash give up the two runs and THEN puts in Marte who promptly retires the five men he faces. When you have a great reliever USE HIM! Then Rios can't lay down a bunt? UGH! This team sucks. This manager sucks. This organization sucks.

Mark is the victim in the end. He had win #3 sewn up after a well-pitched game. Now he's stuck with nada. That's the second time Flash has blown a game Buehrle should have won. :angry: :angry: :angry:

but why is marte a good pitcher because he got a well hit fly ball to maggs while gordon isn't as good because he instead allowed a bloop single that feel inbetween the infield and the outfielders. the ball marte threw was hit harder. sure gordon shouldn't have allowed the leadoff walk, but what else was his fault?

MHOUSE
06-01-2003, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
but why is marte a good pitcher because he got a well hit fly ball to maggs while gordon isn't as good because he instead allowed a bloop single that feel inbetween the infield and the outfielders. the ball marte threw was hit harder. sure gordon shouldn't have allowed the leadoff walk, but what else was his fault?

I'm faulting Manuel for leaving Gordon in too long. He walked the leadoff guy and then gave up some hits. What so far gives you the idea he's going to pitch out of it? Marte is a much better reliever than Flash so go to him. Has Jerry paid attention this season at all to Flash's outings vs. Marte's at all? When Gordon starts losing it then he gets burned. Hello!?

That fly ball gave Maggs a great run-up and a good throw to the plate that should have had the runner, but Olivo couldn't come up with it and the runner had a good slide as well.

TornLabrum
06-01-2003, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
I was SCREAMING at the television "Where's Marte?" when Flash lost it in the 8th inning. He did a great job rolling up the double play to end the threat in the 7th and save Buehrle's two runners. Then I would go to Marte for the 8th and Koch for the 9th with a 3-run lead. But he starts Flash for the 8th. Ok so we'll let him roll on the good job last inning. Then suddenly he gives up a couple hits and runners on to face Bradley, a lefty. At least go to Marte NOW that their best hitter, a lefty, is up. But no he lets Flash give up the two runs and THEN puts in Marte who promptly retires the five men he faces. When you have a great reliever USE HIM! Then Rios can't lay down a bunt? UGH! This team sucks. This manager sucks. This organization sucks.

Mark is the victim in the end. He had win #3 sewn up after a well-pitched game. Now he's stuck with nada. That's the second time Flash has blown a game Buehrle should have won. :angry: :angry: :angry:

You would think that between the two of us, Manuel would have heard one!

As soon as the first baserunner got on against Gordon, I was screaming, "Take him out, Jerry!" With each batter I was screaming louder. And Jerry sat.

mack10zie
06-01-2003, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
but why is marte a good pitcher because he got a well hit fly ball to maggs while gordon isn't as good because he instead allowed a bloop single that feel inbetween the infield and the outfielders. the ball marte threw was hit harder. sure gordon shouldn't have allowed the leadoff walk, but what else was his fault?

It's not necessarily good pitcher vs. bad pitcher. The situation called for Marte. I don't have a problem with Gordon starting the 8th, although I don't think it's what I would have done, but once he got himself into trouble it was OBVIOUS that Manuel should have gone to Marte. It doesn't matter how you get into trouble, and it is not necessarily Gordon's fault, because Manuel should not have had Gordon in the position that he was in. After he got into trouble he needed to come out, after he have up a run he needed to come out, but Manuel waiting until the tying run was on third with one out..... how can you wait that long?!? I just don't get it I guess.

As for blaming the guys who couldn't get Borchard home, yeah, that was tough, but some of that blame falls on Manuel as well. Choosing Rios over Paul in the bunting situation was NOT a smart move. That being said, a mojor leaguer should be able to get a bunt down in that situation.

Obviously there is plenty of blame to go around for this loss, but I'd say the majority of it falls directly on Jerry, not Gordon, and not Rios. He has to know his team better than he does, and know when to make moves, which he seemingly has no clue how to do.

MHOUSE
06-01-2003, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by mack10zie
It's not necessarily good pitcher vs. bad pitcher. The situation called for Marte. I don't have a problem with Gordon starting the 8th, although I don't think it's what I would have done, but once he got himself into trouble it was OBVIOUS that Manuel should have gone to Marte. It doesn't matter how you get into trouble, and it is not necessarily Gordon's fault, because Manuel should not have had Gordon in the position that he was in. After he got into trouble he needed to come out, after he have up a run he needed to come out, but Manuel waiting until the tying run was on third with one out..... how can you wait that long?!? I just don't get it I guess.

As for blaming the guys who couldn't get Borchard home, yeah, that was tough, but some of that blame falls on Manuel as well. Choosing Rios over Paul in the bunting situation was NOT a smart move. That being said, a mojor leaguer should be able to get a bunt down in that situation.

Obviously there is plenty of blame to go around for this loss, but I'd say the majority of it falls directly on Jerry, not Gordon, and not Rios. He has to know his team better than he does, and know when to make moves, which he seemingly has no clue how to do.

Great post Mack. That's what I was trying to say as well!

Thanks TornLabrum, I'm glad I wasn't alone in yelling at Jerry. It's getting more and more difficult to watch this team. I thought we had it sewn up..... :whiner:

jeremyb1
06-01-2003, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
When he's getting behind hitters (his main downfall this season) and then gives up some hits and runners, he's obviously not going to pitch out of it. The reason you have Marte is to put out the fires which he has done AWESOME this season. I can excuse going with Gordon for the 8th, but JM left him in WAY TOO LONG! Why wouldn't you go to Marte? please.

gordon got in front of the first hitter 1-2 before lawton got a hit. he did fall behind vizquel 3-0 so you could have pulled him after that at bat except for the fact tha the came back and struck him out. so it didn't appear he was still struggling with his control.

the next batter is burks, marte got ahead 1-2 before a bloop single. how do you pull gordon for getting ahead 1-2 and then giving up a bloop single? how is the bloop single a signal to manuel that gordon can't get the following batters. why does the lucky placement of the ball reflect upon gordon's ability to retire the remaining hitters?

the following batter is bradley who goes 2-1 before getting a hit. if there's any point manuel might want to pull gordon its right here. however, spencer does not have a hit lifetime against gordon. gordon gets a double play grounder. the placement just happens to be wrong for the sox. so if manuel was correct that gordon could induce a weak ground ball against spencer, why is he incorrect to leave gordon in to face spencer? even if manuel should've pulled gordon one batter earlier how is it such a cut and dry situation that beyond a shadow of a doubt he should've pulled him, that beyond a shadow of a doubt, marte would have avoided any kind of a bloop hit, and most importantly that that one decision is the main reason we lose the game?!

mack10zie
06-01-2003, 04:46 PM
It's cut and dry because Marte is the set-up man, when the guy ahead of him gets into trouble it is his job to go in there and out of trouble. You don't wait until the trouble is so bad that a fly ball will tie the game. Once the game is in the 8th the ball should be Marte's if there is ANY sign of trouble. It doesn't matter HOW the trouble came about.

jeremyb1
06-01-2003, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by mack10zie
It's cut and dry because Marte is the set-up man, when the guy ahead of him gets into trouble it is his job to go in there and out of trouble. You don't wait until the trouble is so bad that a fly ball will tie the game. Once the game is in the 8th the ball should be Marte's if there is ANY sign of trouble. It doesn't matter HOW the trouble came about.

i've never heard marte referred to as the lone set up man. ever since gordon was signed he was referred to as the right handed component of a lefty-righty setup team. he was supposed to fill the role as the righthanded setup man that osuna filled last season. manuel has used gordon in the 8th inning with the lead a number of times. pitching the 8th inning has never solely belonged to marte.

gordon threw in the 8th inning as recently as the last game we pitched against toronto. where's the thread from that day talking about how manuel made a mistake to pitch him in the 8th because marte is our setup man dealing with that game? or is it only a mistake when gordon gives up bloop singles?

LuvSox
06-01-2003, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
You would think that between the two of us, Manuel would have heard one!

As soon as the first baserunner got on against Gordon, I was screaming, "Take him out, Jerry!" With each batter I was screaming louder. And Jerry sat.

There was a whole choir of us. I was screaming too. :angry:

oldcomiskey
06-01-2003, 05:55 PM
mayeb it wasnt Manuels fault--TODAY------but how bout those other games---the cryptkeeper is alive--and he is in Chicago

MHOUSE
06-01-2003, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by mack10zie
It's cut and dry because Marte is the set-up man, when the guy ahead of him gets into trouble it is his job to go in there and out of trouble. You don't wait until the trouble is so bad that a fly ball will tie the game. Once the game is in the 8th the ball should be Marte's if there is ANY sign of trouble. It doesn't matter HOW the trouble came about.

Exactly!

Paulwny
06-01-2003, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS

KW didn't call Jerry and tell him to put Rios in to bunt. WHEN JOSH PAUL IS BY FAR THE BEST BUNTER ON THIS TEAM.



JM didn't use Paul because, who catches if Olivo is injured ?
Managers will never allow themselves to be caught in this type of situation. Check out who didn't play in the yank/tiger extra inning game today.

Daver
06-01-2003, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
JM didn't use Paul because, who catches if Olivo is injured ?


Brian Daubach.

Paulwny
06-01-2003, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by daver
Brian Daubach.

When's the last time he was behind the plate?
Then again he's probably better then Mr. Versatile.

mack10zie
06-01-2003, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i've never heard marte referred to as the lone set up man. ever since gordon was signed he was referred to as the right handed component of a lefty-righty setup team. he was supposed to fill the role as the righthanded setup man that osuna filled last season. manuel has used gordon in the 8th inning with the lead a number of times. pitching the 8th inning has never solely belonged to marte.

gordon threw in the 8th inning as recently as the last game we pitched against toronto. where's the thread from that day talking about how manuel made a mistake to pitch him in the 8th because marte is our setup man dealing with that game? or is it only a mistake when gordon gives up bloop singles?

He never has been referred to as the lone set-up man, but Marte has earned that role by his performance. In his last 5 outings Gordon has blown the lead 4 times, including today. He did have a solid outing against the Jays, and he did pitch inb the 8th, BUT Marte had pitched the previous night against the Tigers so he probably felt he should give Marte a bit of a rest, and Manuel played is properly in that game, bringing in Marte once Gordon got into trouble by walking a batter even though there was already two outs. Today SHOULD have played out like that outing. It is fine to bring Gordon in to start the 8th, but once there is even a sniff of trouble, Marte should be brought in. Maybe he gets a little more leeway in a 3 run game than he would in the 1 run Jays game, but you DO NOT let him let up two runs, period. Yes, Gordon had some tough luck, and that was not Manuel's fault necessarily, but he put Gordon in that situation where the bad luck was something that could have happened, and that's where he is at fault IMO.

Daver
06-01-2003, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
When's the last time he was behind the plate?
Then again he's probably better then Mr. Versatile.

Daubach hasn't worn the tools since he was in the minors.

On of those nets that springs the ball back to the pitcher would be better than Josh Paul.

duke of dorwood
06-01-2003, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by daver
Daubach hasn't worn the tools since he was in the minors.

On of those nets that springs the ball back to the pitcher would be better than Josh Paul.

*****

Forgot about those things

MHOUSE
06-01-2003, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by daver
Daubach hasn't worn the tools since he was in the minors.

On of those nets that springs the ball back to the pitcher would be better than Josh Paul.

LMAO :)

Tragg
06-02-2003, 12:17 AM
A month ago, after he had 2 straight good appearances, I said we should put him on the block.
Gordon's terrible and he's never been that great. I wish the Sox would use the pen a bit more to develop young pitchers.
Lidge, for example, will be in the Astros rotation next year; he's a set-up man this year.