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34 Inch Stick
05-31-2003, 11:02 AM
Is it better to trade him early in the season and get a guy that we truly want or to wait until later, get a market started, and trade for the highest value?

Just a thread starter that should be the topic of discussion for the next two months.

voodoochile
05-31-2003, 01:05 PM
2 reasons to wait...

1)It's too early for even JR to call it a season. Give him another month or two.

2)Value will be higher when the trading deadline gets closer. Teams will be both trying to improve their team and prevent their opponents from doing so. So there is more potential for a bidding war, IMO. Timing is crucial. Too early and not enough interest. Too late and you are forced to take whatever is offered. KW will surely screw it up, so what's the rush?

MRKARNO
05-31-2003, 01:31 PM
If we traded Colon, he would be a perfect fit in Houston

Lip Man 1
05-31-2003, 01:39 PM
I think Colon isn't the only player the Sox are going to unload in a few months.

Lip

Hullett_Fan
05-31-2003, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
If we traded Colon, he would be a perfect fit in Houston

And Lance Berkman would fit perfectly here...

:)

Hullett_Fan
05-31-2003, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I think Colon isn't the only player the Sox are going to unload in a few months.

Lip

I don't know who else they could trade. I know it'd be nice to get rid of White, Valentin, Thomas and Konerko...but no takers.

Lee? - Probably

Buerhle - Probably Not We have him locked in for 2 more years

Garland - Possible...but he's one of the few decent arms left (and rotation is already weak...especially if Colon is gone)

Gordon - If someone wants him they can have him, probably won't get anything in return

Jjav829
05-31-2003, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by Hullett_Fan
And Lance Berkman would fit perfectly here...

:)

Yeah, and when he started off with no RBI for the first 2 weeks, Sox fans would have been calling for him to be traded.

MRKARNO
05-31-2003, 02:04 PM
But seriously, if we traded Bartolo to Houston, got a lowered in value Bermkan in return along with Lidge and then traded Lidge and Gordon to St. Louis for Renteria?

Note: If the game were going on I wouldnt be making posts like this

MHOUSE
05-31-2003, 02:10 PM
I don't think there is anyone (save Maggs I hope) on this roster that is considered by the Sox to be untradeable. I'd like to keep Crede, Olivo, Borchard, Maggs, and Marte as a core group. But in general it's the veterans that will be gone so I am thinking:

Colon
Lee
Thomas
Wunsch
Gordon
Garland
Buehrle
Konerko/Daubach
Jose

These guys have all been around at least a few years and would have some value. I don't know about Konerko and Daubach but someone might take a chance.

I think you wait on Colon for the bidding war. We could net some good prospects and/or a good MLB player.

duke of dorwood
05-31-2003, 02:23 PM
Konerko's contract makes him very hard to trade

Paulwny
05-31-2003, 02:42 PM
The sox should wait till their phonre rings.
Looking at the al east the longer Boston and Toronto stay in the hunt the more they'll give for a starting pitcher.
If Boston feels they have a good shot they may be willing to let go of their highly touted minor league ss.

Hangar18
05-31-2003, 03:24 PM
The Sox would be TREMENDOUSLY STUPID to trade COLON and/or LOIAZA. these are pitchers you BUILD your team around so that you can start WINNING again Next Year. This Move is very Florida Marlin-ish and basically, just Puts Off....and Puts Off.....and Puts Off WINNING NOW. Then...next year, when the SOX are hovering barely above .500, and they suddenly realize they could use a couple of Pitchers...we'll remember how Dumb this trade is/was. I really think, if they decide to "Rebuild" again this year, and trade the only good guys we have left here (instead of ADDING players to Complement them) Im going to have to SERIOUSLY reconsider being a Fan of this Team. Im not going to wait another 23 years....so that we can say we only won our division another 3 times ? thats bull****. Sox can save it. I'll just be a Yankees Fan, I know they will do Whatever It Takes to WIN. Theres a reason they Won 26 World Championships....

mrwag
05-31-2003, 04:30 PM
I agree, unloading Colon is crap. He's definately done the job this year. Let's get rid of the "dead" weight and get stronger, not weaker. I just don't understand that philosophy, especially when we're so close to a balanced team. We have a stock-pile of DH types - let's trade for some strenght up the middle and speed. I don't think we should throw in the towel for the next 3 seasons already.

Keep Frank too - he's gonna bust out soon. He's the only consistent hitter now. Keep him at 1st, trade Paulie/Lee/Valentin/White/Gordon.

DonkeyKongerko
05-31-2003, 05:05 PM
Then again some people can't afford Colon and everyone would want Loaiza at his cheap pricetag and having a career year.

You are supposed to buy low and sell high. I can't see E-Lo dominating the league for years to come but the Sox are out of it by July and E-Lo is still leading the league in ERA i say we have to trade him.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-31-2003, 05:20 PM
This entire thread reminds of a conversation 3-4 or Indians fans might have had about their long-term-truly-pathetic-no-hope-whatsoever Cleveland Indians of the early-1980's. I wonder if their team owner had once promised to build a "first-class organization" too?

Obviously they didn't have the internet back then, but you get my point. :smile:

MRKARNO
05-31-2003, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
The Sox would be TREMENDOUSLY STUPID to trade COLON and/or LOIAZA. these are pitchers you BUILD your team around so that you can start WINNING again Next Year. This Move is very Florida Marlin-ish and basically, just Puts Off....and Puts Off.....and Puts Off WINNING NOW. Then...next year, when the SOX are hovering barely above .500, and they suddenly realize they could use a couple of Pitchers...we'll remember how Dumb this trade is/was. I really think, if they decide to "Rebuild" again this year, and trade the only good guys we have left here (instead of ADDING players to Complement them) Im going to have to SERIOUSLY reconsider being a Fan of this Team. Im not going to wait another 23 years....so that we can say we only won our division another 3 times ? thats bull****. Sox can save it. I'll just be a Yankees Fan, I know they will do Whatever It Takes to WIN. Theres a reason they Won 26 World Championships....

In my opinion, the sox would be smart to trade Colon. The boss is pissed in NY and there's no way we'd outbid steinbrenner. He'd offer Colon 15 million per year on a long term contract. When was the last time the yanks didnt get their guy? With Clemens and Wells both possibly retiring and Weaver not up to par, it might be a good idea to trade Colon to a non-yankees team, but then again, he'd probably end up with the yankees anyways via free agency, so maybe we should just deal him to Steinbrenner and Company anyways.

The point is that we won't have the money to resign him so we might as well get something in return.

BTW, there are supposed to be a TON of free agents next year, so we could always rebuild based on the FA pool

Edit: Here's a list of potential 03-04 FA's from WSI's Best Friend Peter Gammons (note: it was written on 11/27/02):

Kevin Milwood, Atl., RHP, 29*
Sidney Ponson, Bal., RHP, 27*
Bartolo Colon, Mon., RHP, 29*
Livan Hernandez, S.F., RHP, 29*
Kirk Rueter, S.F., LHP, 33*
Andy Pettitte, NYY, LHP, 32*
Pedro Astacio, NYM, RHP, 34*
Randy Johnson, Ari., LHP, 41*
Danny Graves, Cin., RHP, 31*
Keith Foulke, CWS, RHP, 31*
Kelvim Escobar, Tor., RHP, 28*
Scott Sullivan, Cin., RHP, 33*
Armando Benitez, NYM, RHP, 31*
Eddie Guardado, Min., LHP, 34*
Mike Williams, Pit., RHP, 34*
Javy Lopez, Atl., C, 33*
Luis Castillo, Fla., 2B, 29*
Fernando Vina, St. L., 2B, 35*
Craig Biggio, Hou., 2B, 38*
Miguel Tejada, Oak., SS, 28*
Rich Aurilia, S.F., SS, 33*
Roberto Alomar, NYM, 2B, 38*
Jose Cruz, Tor., 0F, 30*
Vladimir Guerrero, Mon., OF, 28*
Shannon Stewart, Tor., OF, 30*
Mike Cameron, Sea., 0F, 31*
* Opening Day age in 2004

Does anyone else see the sox affording Tejada if Colon's gone?

Paulwny
05-31-2003, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
In my opinion, the sox would be smart to trade Colon. The boss is pissed in NY and there's no way we'd outbid steinbrenner. He'd offer Colon 15 million per year on a long term contract.


Agree, unless JR has a change of heart Colon is gone at the end of the year. We don't sign pitchers to long term contracts.

idseer
05-31-2003, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
The Sox would be TREMENDOUSLY STUPID to trade COLON and/or LOIAZA. these are pitchers you BUILD your team around so that you can start WINNING again Next Year. This Move is very Florida Marlin-ish and basically, just Puts Off....and Puts Off.....and Puts Off WINNING NOW. Then...next year, when the SOX are hovering barely above .500, and they suddenly realize they could use a couple of Pitchers...we'll remember how Dumb this trade is/was. I really think, if they decide to "Rebuild" again this year, and trade the only good guys we have left here (instead of ADDING players to Complement them) Im going to have to SERIOUSLY reconsider being a Fan of this Team. Im not going to wait another 23 years....so that we can say we only won our division another 3 times ? thats bull****. Sox can save it. I'll just be a Yankees Fan, I know they will do Whatever It Takes to WIN. Theres a reason they Won 26 World Championships....

hanger, i believe your logic is sound ... however, jr will not resign colon.

i don't believe they should trade him anyway tho. he's a rental and will not bring much of anything on the market imo. that's why the sox got him so cheap in the first place and now he doesn't even have a year to go till he's free! why should anyone give up much for someone they either won't sign themselves, or will cost a bundle anyway? they'll wait till he's available and get him for just the money.

in the meantime, the sox are still not out of the race yet despite the way things appear to be headed.

KEEP HIM!

MRKARNO
05-31-2003, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Agree, unless JR has a change of heart Colon is gone at the end of the year. We don't sign pitchers to long term contracts.

You misunderstood me. I was referring to Mr. Steinbrenner

Also, I think we should keep him until at least the deadline, where his value will go up. If we're in the hunt, we keep him. If it's painfully clear that we're out of it, trade him.

jeremyb1
05-31-2003, 09:07 PM
if we're out of contention around the deadline i'd love to see us consider keeping colon until the end of the season and getting draft picks in return for him as a serious alternative to dealing him.
the problem with this is its pretty unlikely considering how stingy reinsdorf is. we'd have to pay colon's salary for the duration of the season (probably a million or two), pay to signing bonuses to the two extra players we'd draft in the first round and the supplemental round, and risk colon accepting arbitration.

as far as talent goes though, we'd probably acquire the most talent by ending up with a total of 3 of the first 40 picks in next season's draft unless we're lucky enough to start a bidding war amongst several teams interested in colon's services down the stretch.

MHOUSE
06-01-2003, 01:08 AM
Go for the bidding war at the deadline. His value will be high then. Why have him win 15 games and then get a couple of draft picks with a coin toss chance of panning out? I'd like a more established prospect and chance of success than a draft pick. Colon for Weaver and a prospect or two? He's going to be a Yankee next year anyways with Clemens and Wells likely retired. I like Colon as much as the next guy, but he was supposed to put us over the top and we're no where near the top so it's basically the same as trading for Wells after 2000 only with a little less to go on (.500 season to WS was unlikely). Why would he stick around for our rebuilding project while in his prime? Face it, keeping Loaiza and Colon won't make us contenders next year. A LOT more has to be done and I just don't trust JR and KW to do it.

gosox41
06-01-2003, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Is it better to trade him early in the season and get a guy that we truly want or to wait until later, get a market started, and trade for the highest value?

Just a thread starter that should be the topic of discussion for the next two months.

Remeber we have the KW handicap. He's dumb enough to try to create a market for Colon (whihc to KW means bad mouthing him) unti July 31. On the last day of the trade deadline he'll trade him for jack s***. Everyone in the world knows the the Sox are going to dump payroll. It would be a good time to start crating a market now and if someone offers something good today, take it and not wait.

Bob

gosox41
06-01-2003, 08:39 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
2 reasons to wait...

1)It's too early for even JR to call it a season. Give him another month or two.

2)Value will be higher when the trading deadline gets closer. Teams will be both trying to improve their team and prevent their opponents from doing so. So there is more potential for a bidding war, IMO. Timing is crucial. Too early and not enough interest. Too late and you are forced to take whatever is offered. KW will surely screw it up, so what's the rush?

You mean the way the Sox traded Durham at the trade deadline for hot prosptect Jon Adkins.

Bob

guillen4life13
06-01-2003, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
Go for the bidding war at the deadline. His value will be high then. Why have him win 15 games and then get a couple of draft picks with a coin toss chance of panning out? I'd like a more established prospect and chance of success than a draft pick. Colon for Weaver and a prospect or two? He's going to be a Yankee next year anyways with Clemens and Wells likely retired. I like Colon as much as the next guy, but he was supposed to put us over the top and we're no where near the top so it's basically the same as trading for Wells after 2000 only with a little less to go on (.500 season to WS was unlikely). Why would he stick around for our rebuilding project while in his prime? Face it, keeping Loaiza and Colon won't make us contenders next year. A LOT more has to be done and I just don't trust JR and KW to do it.

Whoa! Not a good comparison man. The reason we flopped in 2001 is because of David Wells' injury and poor play, Frank's injury, Eldred, Baldwin, Howry, and Parque were injured, and the offense sputtered because of the great talent we had (Klayton, Singleton, etc.). Colon has done his job this year. The offense has not.

Tragg
06-02-2003, 12:23 AM
Why does everyone want to trade Garland? We don't have that many young pitchers left and the only way we'll ever win is to develop young pitchers into effective pitchers.
We need a SS and a CF and Konerko needs to start hitting (right now we have no production at two power positions - 1st and 3rd - and I'm willing to give young Crede a pass for a while). I'd also clean out some of the stench from our middle relief and go with some younger pitchers (white, glover and gordon are not helping this baseball team).

MHOUSE
06-02-2003, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
Whoa! Not a good comparison man. The reason we flopped in 2001 is because of David Wells' injury and poor play, Frank's injury, Eldred, Baldwin, Howry, and Parque were injured, and the offense sputtered because of the great talent we had (Klayton, Singleton, etc.). Colon has done his job this year. The offense has not.

I meant it in the way that we went out and traded for a veteran to put us over the top and it didn't pan out. Obviously Wells got hurt and a lot of the team did too while this year Colon has pitched well. Either way the team hasn't been greatly improved overall for whatever the reason.

MHOUSE
06-02-2003, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by Tragg
Why does everyone want to trade Garland? We don't have that many young pitchers left and the only way we'll ever win is to develop young pitchers into effective pitchers.
We need a SS and a CF and Konerko needs to start hitting (right now we have no production at two power positions - 1st and 3rd - and I'm willing to give young Crede a pass for a while). I'd also clean out some of the stench from our middle relief and go with some younger pitchers (white, glover and gordon are not helping this baseball team).

I would actually say I've cooled on the idea of trading him. He's shown up his last three starts or so and pitched well. Hopefully he can keep it up all season and win some ball games.