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kermittheefrog
05-29-2003, 09:38 PM
The other Sox got BH Kim for the epitome of mediocrity Shea Hillenbrand. Not fair.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2003/0529/1560537.html

MetalliSox
05-29-2003, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
The other Sox got BH Kim for the epitome of mediocrity Shea Hillenbrand. Not fair.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2003/0529/1560537.html

I'd like to know your definition of mediocrity. Shea was an All Star last year and is batting over .300 now. The only reason BoSox ditched him was because the ex-Cub Mueller is battig .382. Hilly played a decent 1st base for the Sox which is what they needed.

Could actuallyu be a bad move for the future of Boston unless Kim stays healthy.

Hangar18
05-29-2003, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by KonerkosHip
I'd like to know your definition of mediocrity....... Hilly played a decent 1st base for the Sox which is what they needed.


Ummmmm, Hillenbrand never played for the Sox. Konerko was our First Baseman last year

Hangar18
05-29-2003, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
The other Sox got BH Kim for the epitome of mediocrity Shea Hillenbrand. Not fair.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2003/0529/1560537.html

Hey...thats GREAT. Just means Hillenbrand wont be Jacking 30+ homers into the LF "Power" alleys and hitting a bunch of 360 foot homers (yes folks, those signs are Wrong. Take the Sandberg Baskets into consideration, they shorten the trajectory by another 5 to 8 feet) Now They'll have to Dig Very Deep to get their first baseman. They might still get Castillo from the stupid Marlins.....when are they folding that team?

doublem23
05-29-2003, 10:21 PM
Boston steals Kim and we get... Todd Ritchie.

:ohno

:gulp: :gulp: :gulp: :gulp: :gulp: :gulp: :gulp:

lowesox
05-29-2003, 10:23 PM
After how Kim pitched in the playoffs a couple years ago, I would never want him on my playoff team.

I think Arizona won this trade.

Hangar18
05-29-2003, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
After how Kim pitched in the playoffs a couple years ago, I would never want him on my playoff team.

I think Arizona won this trade.

Im not so sure. I think this may be good for both teams. Though I'll bet Arizona is the team that initiated these talks.....

gosox41
05-29-2003, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
The other Sox got BH Kim for the epitome of mediocrity Shea Hillenbrand. Not fair.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2003/0529/1560537.html

I know, it's hard to watch teams pull off good trades when we're stuck with KW.

Bob

:KW
I can't wait until July when I can trade more All Star caliber players for crappy AAA prospects that are injury prone. Wait until you see the 2004 opening day starter once JR gives me the orders to slash payroll: Jon Adkins.

Tragg
05-29-2003, 10:35 PM
Hilldebrand's on-base percentage is woeful (career 284 - ouch!); he's never hit 20 homers in a season and his top rbi season is 83. His decent batting average hides his mediocrity.

Dadawg_77
05-29-2003, 11:03 PM
Zona got screwed in this deal. Epstien is showing you never have to play pro baseball to get the job done as the GM. Hillenbrand has a high avg but OBP to back it up, nor he is patient at the plate with 3.62 P per PA and 7 walks in 200 plate appearances. How he is ever an All Star escapes me as AL has Chavez and Glaus.

MHOUSE
05-30-2003, 12:07 AM
I think the run support at Boston will help Kim. He was 1-5 but had an ERA like 3.80 and I read he wasn't getting much support. Sure he had those two infamous meltdowns, but he was a fill-in closer those 2 seasons and always wanted to start. Now he's the next tool of the pitching staff by committee in Boston. I hope he does well, I always liked BHK.

Is Matt Williams injured again for Zona? Or will Hillenbrand play 1B?

MHOUSE
05-30-2003, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Hey...thats GREAT. Just means Hillenbrand wont be Jacking 30+ homers into the LF "Power" alleys and hitting a bunch of 360 foot homers (yes folks, those signs are Wrong. Take the Sandberg Baskets into consideration, they shorten the trajectory by another 5 to 8 feet) Now They'll have to Dig Very Deep to get their first baseman. They might still get Castillo from the stupid Marlins.....when are they folding that team?

Well this means that the Cubs won't be able to make the stupid move for Hillenbrand, but will probably trade for Lowell if/when they move for a third baseman. If the Marlins lose Castillo and Lowell then they've got nothing left. It's sad that an entire franchise was created, built, juiced with money/payroll to win a series, and then torn apart and now they just give away their good players. Fold 'em up they're a joke!

kermittheefrog
05-30-2003, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by KonerkosHip
I'd like to know your definition of mediocrity. Shea was an All Star last year and is batting over .300 now. The only reason BoSox ditched him was because the ex-Cub Mueller is battig .382. Hilly played a decent 1st base for the Sox which is what they needed.

Could actuallyu be a bad move for the future of Boston unless Kim stays healthy.

I think other people have handled why Hillenbrand isn't more than a mediocrity. He doesn't walk much and he doesn't have power. So he's missing two of the three basic offensive skills. His defense isn't anything special either.

Hangar18
05-30-2003, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I think other people have handled why Hillenbrand isn't more than a mediocrity. He doesn't walk much and he doesn't have power. So he's missing two of the three basic offensive skills. His defense isn't anything special either.

Now that you mention it ........

Spiff
05-30-2003, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I think other people have handled why Hillenbrand isn't more than a mediocrity. He doesn't walk much and he doesn't have power. So he's missing two of the three basic offensive skills. His defense isn't anything special either.

His defense is fine. He can play first and third more than adequately.

MetalliSox
05-30-2003, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Ummmmm, Hillenbrand never played for the Sox. Konerko was our First Baseman last year

Ummmmm, not sure if you know there is a team in Boston called the Red SOX, which is whom I was speaking of.

Sad
05-30-2003, 08:43 AM
speaking of highway robbery, how 'bout that Esteban Loaiza ! :smile:

Hangar18
05-30-2003, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by KonerkosHip
Ummmmm, not sure if you know there is a team in Boston called the Red SOX, which is whom I was speaking of.

those other "Sox" of which you speak, are known as the Red Sox, and have no business being called simply the "sox". Thats reserved for our team. In fact, our uniforms and Caps simply say
'SOX' We are the original SOX...the other guys are red sox.

A.T. Money
05-30-2003, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
those other "Sox" of which you speak, are known as the Red Sox, and have no business being called simply the "sox". Thats reserved for our team. In fact, our uniforms and Caps simply say
'SOX' We are the original SOX...the other guys are red sox.

That's another concept ESPN has failed to grasp. I've been correcting people with this for many moons. Preach on Hangar18.

Spiff
05-30-2003, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
those other "Sox" of which you speak, are known as the Red Sox, and have no business being called simply the "sox". Thats reserved for our team. In fact, our uniforms and Caps simply say
'SOX' We are the original SOX...the other guys are red sox.

It depends which area of the country you are in.

However it was fairly obvious to everyone that KonerkosHip was talking about the Red Sox. And considering his name has Konerko in it, I'm pretty sure he knows who played first base for the White Sox last year.

A.T. Money
05-30-2003, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by Spiff
It depends which area of the country you are in.

However it was fairly obvious to everyone that KonerkosHip was talking about the Red Sox. And considering his name has Konerko in it, I'm pretty sure he knows who played first base for the White Sox last year.

You missed the point.

It's not a question of whether or not KonerkosHip knew who played 1B for the White Sox. The point is that the "Sox" are the Chicago White Sox. The rude, arrogant fans in Boston often use the same moniker for their team, the "Red Sox". They own no merchandise with "Sox" on it. Everything has "Red Sox".

Also, since our team because the White Sox, while Boston was still known as the Pilgrims, we are considered the original "Sox".

doublem23
05-30-2003, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by SoxDemon
You missed the point.

It's not a question of whether or not KonerkosHip knew who played 1B for the White Sox. The point is that the "Sox" are the Chicago White Sox. The rude, arrogant fans in Boston often use the same moniker for their team, the "Red Sox". They own no merchandise with "Sox" on it. Everything has "Red Sox".

Also, since our team because the White Sox, while Boston was still known as the Pilgrims, we are considered the original "Sox".

Much ado about nothing.

Iwritecode
05-30-2003, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Much ado about nothing.

Geez, and I thought Sox fans only got this riled up when someone calls Ivan Rodriquez "Pudge"...

A.T. Money
05-30-2003, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Geez, and I thought Sox fans only got this riled up when someone calls Ivan Rodriquez "Pudge"...

It just adds to the frustration of being in the "background". Whether it's ESPN neglecting our Sox in favor of the Boston, or the local media hyping the Scrubs.

Is having our own identity too much to ask?

Irishsox1
05-30-2003, 02:41 PM
Of course the boston friendly media considers this a steal of a trade. However, Kim is damaged goods. His total meltdowns in the world series are right up there with Donnie Moore and Calvin Sharaldi (The real goat of the '86 Red Sox). I think Arizona got the better of this deal. Of course the Red Sox had to make this trade because Bob Howry was so bad for the Red Sox.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-30-2003, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by Irishsox1
....Of course the Red Sox had to make this trade because Bob Howry was so bad for the Red Sox.

Did you mean Bobby "Centerpiece of the '97 White Flag Trade" Howry? Of course who wasn't named the "centerpiece" of that trade at one time or another.

Everybody from Foulke and Howry all the way through to "Zero" Caruso and "Ow, my elbow!"Barcelo were given the title by the Sox front office at one time or another. They've spent most of the last six years trying to convince everyone how right they were to flush the '97 team down the toilet.

Who can forget this famous quote by our champagne-soaked chairman inside the division champion clubhouse in September, 2000:

:reinsy
"I'm sure Sox fans are glad to be WRONG about the White Flag Trade!"

He really knows how to be magnanimous, doesn't he? Is it any wonder he runs such a "first-class organization"?

Now that we're within ten weeks from dumping and rebuilding all over again--and haven't a thing to show for the six years spent from the latest dump and rebuild project-- would it be too much for Reinsdorf to get in front of a microphone and declare, "I'm sure Sox fans are PISSED they were RIGHT about me and my 'first-class organization!'"

:selljerry

xil357
05-30-2003, 03:16 PM
but where, exactly, are Wilson Alvarez, Danny Darwin and Roberto Hernandez now? The way the trade has worked out, and including the Foulke trade to Oakland, we basically gave up Hernandez to get Billy Koch.

Also, with Alvarez, Darwin and Hernandez, would we have given Cleveland a run for their division in 97? I know the Sox were only about 3 or 4 games back but would they have remained competitive?

PaleHoseGeorge
05-30-2003, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by xil357
but where, exactly, are Wilson Alvarez, Danny Darwin and Roberto Hernandez now? The way the trade has worked out, and including the Foulke trade to Oakland, we basically gave up Hernandez to get Billy Koch.

Also, with Alvarez, Darwin and Hernandez, would we have given Cleveland a run for their division in 97? I know the Sox were only about 3 or 4 games back but would they have remained competitive?

How did you like those '97 playoffs? Did foregoing a shot at them add even one single victory to our '00 postseason total? How about any other playoff games post-White Flag?

Yeah, we Sox Fans were sure "wrong" about White Flag. And look how the fans have returned in droves since '97, too!!!

LuvSox
05-30-2003, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
How did you like those '97 playoffs? Did foregoing a shot at them add even one single victory to our '00 postseason total? How about any other playoff games post-White Flag?

Yeah, we Sox Fans were sure "wrong" about White Flag. And look how the fans have returned in droves since '97, too!!!

You're driving my blood pressure up PHG! :angry: I HATE that jackass Reinsdorf!

xil357
05-30-2003, 03:48 PM
In fact, I wish he'd sell the team. And I don't think White Sox fans were wrong. I do think we were deprived a shot at the playoffs, altough the team wasn't exactly stellar that year and I at least can recognize the reasoning for the trade at the time, even if I think it was wrong. But my anger comes out of the lost 94 season. 94 would have been our year if not for the strike. 97 was not our year; we didn't have near the team in 97 that we had in 94.

Hangar18
05-30-2003, 04:02 PM
we''ll never know what 97 couldve held for us. Who knows, maybe we add a pitcher to that team and another hitter and we catch Cleveland. we'll never know because WE GAVE UP.
Dont get me started about 1994. It was only this year that some of the anger began to wear off. At this rate.....It would take me 40 years to completely forgive him for that year, taken away from us. IN baseball, every team has a Window of Opportunity. for some, it closes quickly. for others, it stays open for long periods of time. The Braves have, Almost every time the Window is open, jump thru it. THe sox on the other hand, have only had a "window" probably 4 times in the last 23 years......and each time, We DIDNT TAKE THE TIME TO JUMP THRU IT. instead choosing to Rebuild

PaleHoseGeorge
05-30-2003, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by xil357
In fact, I wish he'd sell the team. And I don't think White Sox fans were wrong. I do think we were deprived a shot at the playoffs, altough the team wasn't exactly stellar that year and I at least can recognize the reasoning for the trade at the time, even if I think it was wrong. But my anger comes out of the lost 94 season. 94 would have been our year if not for the strike. 97 was not our year; we didn't have near the team in 97 that we had in 94.

No argument here. As stupid as the '97 White Flag trade was, I think the most lasting effect wasn't the team's lack of post-season success. The real damage was the credibility the Sox franchise suffered with its fan base. Coming on the heels of Reinsdorf's aforementioned '94 union-busting priorities, the franchise has never recovered.

Now that we've (nearly) come full circle from the last dump and rebuild project--started with the '97 White Flag Trade--the full truth can finally be revealed. Reinsdorf mortally wounded his own franchise--and no amount of his stonewalling or denials will ever change the facts.

Get out, Jerry. Get the **** out!

:selljerry

xil357
05-30-2003, 04:13 PM
Hangar, I totally agree with you about reload vs. rebuild, and I do think that with the right moves they could have made a run in 97. And, they didn't exactly get the best players in return for what they gave up over the long haul. That being said, I agree with the philosophy of "better to trade a player a year early than a year late" and I at least understand the rationale for the White Flag even if it pisses me off, too, whereas I do not understand 94 or Reinsdorf's penchant for always trying to prove that he is right and pissing off the fans.

However, if Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones (much more of an egotistical meglomaniac than JR) can swallow his pride enough to admit that he can't be an effective GM for the Cowboys and therefore hires Bill Parcells, the best coach available on the market, (Jones even once flat-out said something to the effect of, "The average Cowboy fan is an idiot."), then I hold out some hope that one day Reinsdorf will wake up and smell the coffee that he is hurting his business.

Dadawg_77
05-30-2003, 04:48 PM
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/attend.shtml

Look at the numbers 1994 the Sox avg 32K per game, 1995 the Sox avg 22K, the highest amount since 1995 was 2000 at 25K. Yeah Jerry how many more times are you going to spew that BS that You and STrike didn't kill the Sox.

kermittheefrog
05-30-2003, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by Irishsox1
Of course the boston friendly media considers this a steal of a trade. However, Kim is damaged goods. His total meltdowns in the world series are right up there with Donnie Moore and Calvin Sharaldi (The real goat of the '86 Red Sox). I think Arizona got the better of this deal. Of course the Red Sox had to make this trade because Bob Howry was so bad for the Red Sox.

He's so damaged that the year after that world series he cut his ERA nearly a full run and saved 36 games!

MHOUSE
05-30-2003, 11:40 PM
Trade everyone. I am more in this team for the players than this POS organization. If Maggs is traded I'll go root for his new team unless it's the NYY.

Spiff
05-31-2003, 12:42 AM
Originally posted by xil357
but where, exactly, are Wilson Alvarez, Danny Darwin and Roberto Hernandez now? The way the trade has worked out, and including the Foulke trade to Oakland, we basically gave up Hernandez to get Billy Koch.

Also, with Alvarez, Darwin and Hernandez, would we have given Cleveland a run for their division in 97? I know the Sox were only about 3 or 4 games back but would they have remained competitive?

Alvarez is dominating for the Dodgers AAA team.

5-0 1.13 ERA. 40 IP 26H 5 ER 30 K and 5 BB.

Dan Evans might have a Loaiza of his own if the Dodgers' rotation wasn't already so stacked.