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View Full Version : Congrats to the White Sox organization...ESPN now has an official "Sox Stinkometer"


captain54
05-28-2003, 11:48 PM
Attn Jerry Reinsdorf,

Its official....your organization is now officially the laughingstock of baseball....

ESPN this evening ran a "Sox Stinkometer" alongside the highlights of todays game, and the meter jumps with every miscue...

Forget the AllstarGame, forget US Cellular renovations, forget everything....

you have proceeded to take a historic baseball franchise, a proud baseball tradition, and a loyal fan base and run it into the ground...

So its official...the Chicago White Sox are the laughingstock of baseball....and I am offcially disgusted....please get the hell out of the city before you inflict more misery upon those of us who have supported your team for 23 years and longer.....

DonkeyKongerko
05-29-2003, 12:25 AM
Shoeless Joe is rolling in his grave.

Spiff
05-29-2003, 12:43 AM
i thought it was funny. sportscenter gets carried away with things alot but this one wasn't bad. plus it went down on the home run, so there is hope. :)

i dont see how it's reinsdorf's fault that they can't field the ball and run the bases.

jeremyb1
05-29-2003, 01:04 AM
Originally posted by Spiff
i dont see how it's reinsdorf's fault that they can't field the ball and run the bases.

my neither. i don't get it. as i said in another thread, everyone thought kenny really came through with the colon team and that this team would win 90 games this season and now that we're losing the blame immediately falls on reinsdorf?

captain54
05-29-2003, 01:51 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
my neither. i don't get it. as i said in another thread, everyone thought kenny really came through with the colon team and that this team would win 90 games this season and now that we're losing the blame immediately falls on reinsdorf?

The White Sox went 11-6 and then ran into a brickwall....the ballclub has looked lethargic since the end of April...the mental errors and shoddy defense has continued on from the last few seasons....basically, the season looked like it was over May 1...

The Sox collapsed in almost every area imaginable throughout May and now June 1 is around the corner and the manager who presides over this mess continues to stare blankly out of the dugout, and the general manager makes statements in the press that he's pissed off, but that's about it.....

I can see one or two players stinking up the joint....this entire roster has, almost every game, found a way to foul it all up....the field manager and the general manager have no clue how to right the ship, yet, they remain employed and collect a paycheck as if everything was fine....

unbelievable....

jeremyb1
05-29-2003, 03:49 AM
Originally posted by captain54
The White Sox went 11-6 and then ran into a brickwall....the ballclub has looked lethargic since the end of April...the mental errors and shoddy defense has continued on from the last few seasons....basically, the season looked like it was over May 1...

The Sox collapsed in almost every area imaginable throughout May and now June 1 is around the corner and the manager who presides over this mess continues to stare blankly out of the dugout, and the general manager makes statements in the press that he's pissed off, but that's about it.....

I can see one or two players stinking up the joint....this entire roster has, almost every game, found a way to foul it all up....the field manager and the general manager have no clue how to right the ship, yet, they remain employed and collect a paycheck as if everything was fine....

unbelievable....

i think the manager situation is more debatable than you present it. regardless though, i don't see how its entirely reinsdorf's fault. he's not the gm, in the end its not completely his decision. if the manager was fired i doubt that we would have a complete turnaround just because of that change. do you really think we'd be 5 or 10 games over with a different manager?

steff
05-29-2003, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by captain54
Attn Jerry Reinsdorf,

snip...

you have proceeded to take a historic baseball franchise, a proud baseball tradition, and a loyal fan base and run it into the ground...

So its official...the Chicago White Sox are the laughingstock of baseball....and I am offcially disgusted....please get the hell out of the city before you inflict more misery upon those of us who have supported your team for 23 years and longer.....


Yes Jerry.. get out. The horrible play is all your fault. You are the anti-christ. The evil spawn of Satan. You should be strung up by your balls and beaten to a bloody pulp! Unless that is.. if you can play all 9 positions and win the games all by yourself because we all know it can't be the fault of those on the field that we're loosing...


Riiiiiight.

Hangar18
05-29-2003, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
........ do you really think we'd be 5 or 10 games over with a different manager?


Why YES, as a matter of fact I do. Manuel is responsible for at least FOUR losses this year. Five is a possibility.

steff
05-29-2003, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Why YES, as a matter of fact I do. Manuel is responsible for at least FOUR losses this year. Five is a possibility.


Oh Henry get a grip. If the DEFENSE does it's job and doesn't make errors balls get caught and runs don't score. If the OFFENSE gets their heads out of their butts and remembers how to hit we score runs.
Until Jerry - either of them - is on the field I don't see how they can be responsible.

Hangar18
05-29-2003, 08:05 AM
....as I said earlier, its possible his decisions have cost us 4-5 games....the UMPIRES have cost us at least 3 games also. I personally, if im in the dugout, dont bring in Rick White in close situations. That alone has cost us 4 to 5 more games also.
As you can see, 2 of these situations you can control, the Umpires you cant. These things start adding up, and I dont know why Jerry M doesnt realize this. Then, some of these guys started quitting on him in a few games.....I WOULDNT HAVE TOLERATED THAT

UnderpantsGnome
05-29-2003, 08:27 AM
I was really pissed after watching SportsCenter's wrapup of Wednesday's game. Garland pitches an absolute GEM, and the only pitch they showed from him on the highlights resulted in a ground ball booted by Jose (more fodder for the "STINKOMETER"). :angry:

I guarantee if Barry Zito or Roger Clemens had done what Jon did last night, they'd be focusing on their achievement instead of some boneheaded plays by a lackluster defense.

:jon
"I gots alottamo where that came from."

Hangar18
05-29-2003, 08:44 AM
Originally posted by steff3603
Oh Henry get a grip. If the DEFENSE does it's job and doesn't make errors balls get caught and runs don't score. If the OFFENSE gets their heads out of their butts and remembers how to hit we score runs.
Until Jerry - either of them - is on the field I don't see how they can be responsible.

Steff, when I refer to the 4 games Manuel Lost for us, im referring to his decisions late innings/bullpen...not the games where the defense boots the ball, hitters cant hit (I believe he should be benching certain guys, thats his job)

anewman35
05-29-2003, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Steff, when I refer to the 4 games Manuel Lost for us, im referring to his decisions late innings/bullpen...not the games where the defense boots the ball, hitters cant hit (I believe he should be benching certain guys, thats his job)

Here's where your logic is faulty, though - You have no way of knowing we'd have won those 4 games if you'd been managing. With the ****ty way we've been playing even when he makes the correct decisions, I find it hard to believe we'd win all 4, maybe we'd be lucky to win one.

It's not Manuel's fault when the closer blows games, or every hitter we have is hitting under .300 - bad teams have a tendancy to make their manager look like a moron, good teams make the manager look like a genius. In almost all cases, the truth is somewhere in the middle...

PaleHoseGeorge
05-29-2003, 10:07 AM
If you honestly don't understand why Jerry Reinsdorf is ultimately responsibile for why the Sox suck today, sucked in the past, and will continue to suck in the future, you owe it to yourself to read the "For the Love of God" thread.

Nobody is arguing that JR is (nearly) blameless for the 2003 mess he now presides over. However you can't wash away his sins for the past 23 years that led to this mess quite so easily.

Those who are ignorant of Sox history are doomed to repeat it.

captain54
05-29-2003, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by steff3603
Yes Jerry.. get out. The horrible play is all your fault. You are the anti-christ. The evil spawn of Satan. You should be strung up by your balls and beaten to a bloody pulp! Unless that is.. if you can play all 9 positions and win the games all by yourself because we all know it can't be the fault of those on the field that we're loosing...


Riiiiiight.


the shoddy defense, mental errors, and inconsistent offense has been going on for a while now....this is really nothing new....the infestation has merely grown, and found its way to infect every area of this team, while the ownership says nothing publicly, and the Gm and field manager remain clueless as the season goes further and further in the tank.....

According to your argument, Reinsdorf could put 9 high school all stars on the field every night, and when they stink up the joint exclaim..."hey, I can't play all 9 postions and win games by myself, the players have to take SOME responsibility"....

Of course, Reinsdorf and Co, eventually will take action, and based on past seasons, that action again predictably will be to cut payroll yet again....again continually the cycle of more marginal players playing major league baseball, and when fans balk at paying major league prices to view this debacle, putting the onus all back on the long suffering fan...

anewman35
05-29-2003, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
If you honestly don't understand why Jerry Reinsdorf is ultimately responsibile for why the Sox suck today, sucked in the past, and will continue to suck in the future, you owe it to yourself to read the "For the Love of God" thread.

Nobody is arguing that JR is (nearly) blameless for the 2003 mess he now presides over. However you can't wash away his sins for the past 23 years that led to this mess quite so easily.

Those who are ignorant of Sox history are doomed to repeat it.


I know my Sox history. I know that numerous times, the team was about to move, but now it's 2003, the team is in Chicago, and the team is still here, apparently for good. I know that the team hasn't won a championship since 1917 and hasn't been to the Series since 1959, and that JR has only owned the team for the past 23 years. So, I ask, if the entire state of the franchise is JR's fault, why couldn't any previous owners get us a championship in the previous 63 years? I know some of you see Bill Veeck as a savior of the franchise. Well, if you're just going by championships, how is he any better than the current ownership?

Or maybe JR really is just a horrible owner who doesn't know how to win championships. Just look at those Bulls!

gosox41
05-29-2003, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
my neither. i don't get it. as i said in another thread, everyone thought kenny really came through with the colon team and that this team would win 90 games this season and now that we're losing the blame immediately falls on reinsdorf?

I blame JR for not doing anything to save the team. They'r practically out of it right now. This is the third year in a row the team has had high expectations. It's the third year in a row where the Sox offense went into an extended slump and put the team way out fo first place. It's the third year in a row the Sox are playing without any heart or intensity.

When does something become a trend? The Sox offense has a history of sputtering for extended periods of time in each of the last 3 seasons. Firing the hitting coach has little effect on improving the hitting.. It goes much deeper then that.

JR needs to step up and shake up this team. He is just sitting there biting the pillow while his team becomes worse and worse. After reading today's Trib. it doesn't look good that Manuel will get canned this season.

Bob

anewman35
05-29-2003, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
I blame JR for not doing anything to save the team. They'r practically out of it right now. This is the third year in a row the team has had high expectations. It's the third year in a row where the Sox offense went into an extended slump and put the team way out fo first place. It's the third year in a row the Sox are playing without any heart or intensity.

When does something become a trend? The Sox offense has a history of sputtering for extended periods of time in each of the last 3 seasons. Firing the hitting coach has little effect on improving the hitting.. It goes much deeper then that.

JR needs to step up and shake up this team. He is just sitting there biting the pillow while his team becomes worse and worse. After reading today's Trib. it doesn't look good that Manuel will get canned this season.

Bob

So the assumption here is that if we had, say, Wally Backman or Bobby Valentine managing, Buehrle would suddenly be dominate again, Frank, Mags, Konerko and Crede would all hit about .320, and Rick White and Tom Gordon would be untouchable? If you think one man can make that big a difference, you're dreaming. But let's say he can, and all the players are playing badly because they aren't motivated enough by JM, or whatever. In that case, I don't want a single one of them on my team. If a player can't be motiviated by his salary or his own pride, then he's just worthless to me. A grown man shouldn't need somebody to make him care about his work.

gosox41
05-29-2003, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i think the manager situation is more debatable than you present it. regardless though, i don't see how its entirely reinsdorf's fault. he's not the gm, in the end its not completely his decision. if the manager was fired i doubt that we would have a complete turnaround just because of that change. do you really think we'd be 5 or 10 games over with a different manager?

JR can do something. He can fire the GM for a start.

I think a new manager cna make a difference. It's been said that good managers find ways to limit a teams slumps. I'm not talking strategic moves, but other ways to shake up a clubhouse. How come Minnesota bouned back so strong after a weak start, while the Sox have done nothing but struggle.

For those who don't think a manager needs to deal with the human side of players and their problems and that they have no effect on winning and losing is mistaken.

If that were the case why are teams paying millions to guys to lead a team. And it's not just a question of strategic moves. If manager's had no effect on a team's performance, then the Sox should just spend $3K on a state of the art laptop and prop it in the dugout. They can design a program to use whatever variables they want to make strategic decisions and so forth. It would save teams millions of dollars a year.


Bob

gosox41
05-29-2003, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by anewman35
So the assumption here is that if we had, say, Wally Backman or Bobby Valentine managing, Buehrle would suddenly be dominate again, Frank, Mags, Konerko and Crede would all hit about .320, and Rick White and Tom Gordon would be untouchable? If you think one man can make that big a difference, you're dreaming. But let's say he can, and all the players are playing badly because they aren't motivated enough by JM, or whatever. In that case, I don't want a single one of them on my team. If a player can't be motiviated by his salary or his own pride, then he's just worthless to me. A grown man shouldn't need somebody to make him care about his work.


It wouldn't be the first time a player wasn't motivated. There's a ton of players like that, as sad as it is. There are ways to keep the players focused or interested and limit slumps. Good managers do this. Obviously not everyone is going to turn their seasons around all at once, but do you think that if Piniella, Torre, or Baker were managing the Sox we'd have the exact same record?

If so, you should be campaiging for the laptop idea i had in an earlier post. Why pay anyone to manage when a computer can be programmed to make strategic moves and batting orders. I'm not saying with Backman the team would be in first place, but I think if he were here all year the team would be playing with mroe focus and intensity instead of taking on the care free attitude of JM.



Bob

anewman35
05-29-2003, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
It wouldn't be the first time a player wasn't motivated. There's a ton of players like that, as sad as it is. There are ways to keep the players focused or interested and limit slumps. Good managers do this. Obviously not everyone is going to turn their seasons around all at once, but do you think that if Piniella, Torre, or Baker were managing the Sox we'd have the exact same record?

Bob

No, I don't. A good manager can be a big help, and can be just enough to make a good team into a great team. When you're starting with a very mediocre team, though, what's the point? Unless you're starting with a team that's already pretty good (and I see no evidence that we are), it's the difference between third place and second (in other words, no difference at all). Look at Piniella - are the Rays better with him? Sure. Are they good? Far from it.

captain54
05-29-2003, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by anewman35
I know my Sox history. I know that numerous times, the team was about to move, but now it's 2003, the team is in Chicago, and the team is still here, apparently for good. I know that the team hasn't won a championship since 1917 and hasn't been to the Series since 1959, and that JR has only owned the team for the past 23 years. So, I ask, if the entire state of the franchise is JR's fault, why couldn't any previous owners get us a championship in the previous 63 years? I know some of you see Bill Veeck as a savior of the franchise. Well, if you're just going by championships, how is he any better than the current ownership?

Or maybe JR really is just a horrible owner who doesn't know how to win championships. Just look at those Bulls!

If you know your Sox history, you'll know that the Sox had some pretty damn good teams in the 50's and 60's.....those were the days when they were no playoffs, mind you, it was World Series or nothing...whose to say what would have happened in those two decades if there had been expanded playoffs like there are now...

Reinsdorf took over the team when the playoff structure was in place, and as a matter of fact, it'll be almost 10 years since the wild card system was in place, to give even more teams a chance, and the Sox still have very, very little to show for it......

As for the Bulls, it is beyond comprehension that anyone could give Reinsdorf credit for that championship run.....thru Reinsdorf's Maxwell Street mentality, he picked up a basketball franchise off the scrap heap in the mid 80's that just so happened to have a young potential star named MJ on the roster......Reinsdorf is not that basketball savvy to be able to predict the future, the future being that MJ personally commandeered the Bulls into a championship machine....

PaleHoseGeorge
05-29-2003, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by anewman35
....Or maybe JR really is just a horrible owner who doesn't know how to win championships. Just look at those Bulls!

Indeed, look at those Bulls! Reinsdorf inherited Jordan when he bought the franchise, and he never won jack without Jordan. In fact, he played the key role in running Jordan out of town prematurely, taking sides with his loyal GM over the best basketball player of our generation.

I'm not sure what point you were trying to make, but I'm certain you failed to make it.

:selljerry

A.T. Money
05-29-2003, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Indeed, look at those Bulls! Reinsdorf inherited Jordan when he bought the franchise, and he never won jack without Jordan. In fact, he played the key role in running Jordan out of town prematurely, taking sides with his loyal GM over the best basketball player of our generation.

I'm not sure what point you were trying to make, but I'm certain you failed to make it.

:selljerry

That's a fine point Georgie. How can you call the Reinsy a good specimen for success when he's ultimately responsible for the demise of arguably the greatest team in NBA history. They probably would have won 10 straight if it weren't for that biiotch.

anewman35
05-29-2003, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by captain54
If you know your Sox history, you'll know that the Sox had some pretty damn good teams in the 50's and 60's.....those were the days when they were no playoffs, mind you, it was World Series or nothing...whose to say what would have happened in those two decades if there had been expanded playoffs like there are now...

Reinsdorf took over the team when the playoff structure was in place, and as a matter of fact, it'll be almost 10 years since the wild card system was in place, to give even more teams a chance, and the Sox still have very, very little to show for it......

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying JR is the world's best owner or anything. It just seems like you all hate him so much that you can't realize that things could be so much worse. I'd like to get a list from some of you of all the best baseball owners, and all the worst, and what makes them so good and so bad.

The Sox have been in the playoffs 3 times in the last 23 years. Not great, mind you, but not horrible. (The Twins have been in the playoffs 3 times in the same span, too. They've won two championships. The Royals have been in the playoffs twice. They won the series one of the times.) Any one of those 3 times could have been the long awaited championship for the Sox, but the teams just couldn't do what they had to do when it counted. It's not JR's fault when we go have the best record in the league and then go get swept in the first round. Say things had turned out differently, we'd scored a few more runs, we didn't get hurt, and we won the 2000 World Series. What would you all think of JR then?

As for the Bulls, it is beyond comprehension that anyone could give Reinsdorf credit for that championship run.....

I don't, at least not fully. But he deserves some, doesn't he? He kept MJ and let Krause bring in the supporting players that were needed. If he'd been as cheap and horrible as some say, there would not have been championships, because MJ could not do it alone. My entire point is that there is not one person, or two people, or three, who are entirely responsable for the fate of a team - it's the sum of all the people in the organization, from top to bottom, plus a lot of luck. If JR sold tomorrow, do you think it would ultimitly change a thing? If so, you're dreaming.

Dadawg_77
05-29-2003, 11:27 AM
Top Three owners in baseball

Evil Emperor Stienbrener(sp?) - He wins

The guy who owns Oakland - While lacky the capital NYY have he made one hell of a choice in his GM. Then got the hell out of the way.

Chicagoan just to bad he wanted a NL team Jerry Callanglo (sp?) - He uses his resources to try and win.

Worst Three Owners in baseball

Pooland (sp? the jerkoff doesn't even deserve to have his name spelled right) - Anyone who make thier money buy kicking people out of houses during Great Depression isn't good guy.

Marlins Owner - Hmmmm.... I wonder if he can destroy two franchise during his time as an owner.

Tom Hicks - Out bids himself to spend 250 million on A Rod then says there needs to be controls placed on players salaries.

Jerko
05-29-2003, 11:56 AM
I can't believe after one win I see all these posts and shouts and stuff like "quit whining, go to France, Manuel is not the problem, why is Reinsdorf to blame, what did Williams do so wrong, he got Colon... etc. etc. The same TEAM is making the same mistakes for the 3rd year now! Not all the same PLAYERS. I can't believe the Sox were a stupid/bad fielding/bad baserunning team since 2001, the center field, third base, shortstop, second base and catcher positions have all changed many times since then, a bevy of DIFFERENT players are still making the same mistakes, but it's nobody's fault? Who signed these one dimensional sots? Who puts them out on the field in positions they don't belong in? Who is the boss of the 2 mentioned above? Who moved Valentin, a guy who can't play his natural position well, to center? To third? Who got rid of 3 center fielders who are all better than what we have now? Who signed Royce Clayton for his glove, only to move the guy whose glove he replaced over to 3rd to make even more errors than usual? Who got rid of and re-signed Sandy Alomar, called up and sent down Josh Paul for 3 seasons, while losing Charles Johnson? Isn't the manager supposed to TEACH fundamentals? We have a DH who can't play first, a first baseman who can't hit, a left fielder who can't judge the ball (even though I like Lee), a shortstop, who can't play short, was moved to center, then third, now back to short, who can't bat right handed so he sits out and watches his replacement make errors. His replacement, Graffy, who hits lights out off the bench, but make him a starter and it's Mendoza line here we come. Wo signed the guy at 2nd that can't catch? Why can't anybody on the roster since 2000 bunt? I bet the guys who left here know how to bunt now. Who kept trotting out lineups with both Julio Ramirez AND Harold Baines in it? Willie Harris? You know, these players just didn't show up at the park and say, "we're the White Sox, let's play". Somebody brought them here, somebody paid the person who brought them here, and somebody keeps putting them in positions where they have glaring weaknesses for 2 and a half years in a row. That's not whining, that's facts.

LuvSox
05-29-2003, 12:07 PM
Pardon me if I repeat anything, I just skimmed through the posts. Why do the top players in MLB refuse to play here? JR. Why does the GM still have a job when he is obviously incompetent? JR. Who makes the media and the people of Chicago & suburbs absolutely hate him & the Sox because of his actions & words over the past 23 years? JR. It all boils down to him, face it.

Brian26
05-29-2003, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
my neither. i don't get it. as i said in another thread, everyone thought kenny really came through with the colon team and that this team would win 90 games this season and now that we're losing the blame immediately falls on reinsdorf?

It's not Reinsdorf's fault. These comments are pure ignorance. Was it Reinsdorf's fault that PK was tearing up the league for the first half last year? How can it be his fault that PK can't hit the ball out of the infield now? It's not. This team was assembled with enough talent on April 1 to win the division. The team is not performing to it's capabilities, and it IS NOT REINSDORF's fault. Period.

Brian26
05-29-2003, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by Jerko
Isn't the manager supposed to TEACH fundamentals?


I am so sick of this STUPID argument.

This is the major leagues! This isn't frickin' little league, for crying out loud. If guys don't know how to get down on a groundball or how to catch a flyball with two hands or how to take a correct lead from first base by the time they are here, then we've got bigger problems than the manager.

It's not the manager's job to teach major league ball players fundamentals at this level. These guys have to know how to do it by the time they are at this stage of their career.

fhqwhgads
05-29-2003, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by captain54
ESPN this evening ran a "Sox Stinkometer"...

On the bright side, at least the White Sox are being called the "Sox" as opposed to those Beantown boys... :D:

GO TWINS!

doublem23
05-29-2003, 12:38 PM
The Stink-o-Meter was in reference to Magglio Ordonez's quote, "We stink," in the Southtown a couple days ago.

JUGGERNAUT
05-29-2003, 01:03 PM
GO WHITESOX!

Laying a turd on ESPN's BT to really set their stinkometer off! :angry:

voodoochile
05-29-2003, 01:08 PM
(except for the color choice) Originally posted by steff3603
Yes Jerry.. get out. The horrible play is all your fault. You are the anti-christ. The evil spawn of Satan. You should be strung up by your balls and beaten to a bloody pulp! Unless that is.. if you can play all 9 positions and win the games all by yourself because we all know it can't be the fault of those on the field that we're loosing...

Much better...

:)

TornLabrum
05-29-2003, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
my neither. i don't get it. as i said in another thread, everyone thought kenny really came through with the colon team and that this team would win 90 games this season and now that we're losing the blame immediately falls on reinsdorf?

This team looks as if it emerged from Kenny's colon.

LuvSox
05-29-2003, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
This team looks as if it emerged from Kenny's colon.

He needs more fiber, tighten things up a bit.

voodoochile
05-29-2003, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Or maybe JR really is just a horrible owner who doesn't know how to win championships. Just look at those Bulls!

The untimely demise of the 6 time champions during the strike shortened 1999 season is fodder enough for ripping on his philosophy regarding the Bulls. He inherited MJ and that led to everything that followed. His track record since that time is certainly less than spectacular regardless of the life the team showed last season.

Finally forcing Crumbs out was a good decision maybe the Sox should take a page from that book...

TornLabrum
05-29-2003, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by captain54
the shoddy defense, mental errors, and inconsistent offense has been going on for a while now....this is really nothing new....the infestation has merely grown, and found its way to infect every area of this team, while the ownership says nothing publicly, and the Gm and field manager remain clueless as the season goes further and further in the tank.....

According to your argument, Reinsdorf could put 9 high school all stars on the field every night, and when they stink up the joint exclaim..."hey, I can't play all 9 postions and win games by myself, the players have to take SOME responsibility"....

Of course, Reinsdorf and Co, eventually will take action, and based on past seasons, that action again predictably will be to cut payroll yet again....again continually the cycle of more marginal players playing major league baseball, and when fans balk at paying major league prices to view this debacle, putting the onus all back on the long suffering fan...

You forgot to include the fact that there will be no price rollbacks when this happens either.

voodoochile
05-29-2003, 01:23 PM
As fans we should be happy this is happening. Not because we want the Sox to stink, but because it starts the process of highlighting the problems that confront this franchise. We need more national press, more Leno jokes, more Letterman shots, more stink-o-meters, because it is the only thing that will prove to JR that the team needs to be sold or the management team needs to be rebuilt.

Negative press from the Trib or ST gets poo-pooed as the same old same old, but this has the power to really bring the problems of the franchise to the nations attention and hence the other members of the board who ultimately decide if the team stays under JR's control. Hard to claim that ESPN has an axe to grind with the White Sox, No?

I still have hope that the team will turn the season around, but if this is our destiny, then bring on the negative publicity. Then and only then will we fans stand a chance to see JR go away...

:selljerry

Daver
05-29-2003, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
As fans we should be happy this is happening. Not because we want the Sox to stink, but because it starts the process of highlighting the problems that confront this franchise. We need more national press,

You want negative national press,you got it. (http://www.sportingnews.com/voices/ken_rosenthal/20030527a.html)

TornLabrum
05-29-2003, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
I am so sick of this STUPID argument.

This is the major leagues! This isn't frickin' little league, for crying out loud. If guys don't know how to get down on a groundball or how to catch a flyball with two hands or how to take a correct lead from first base by the time they are here, then we've got bigger problems than the manager.

It's not the manager's job to teach major league ball players fundamentals at this level. These guys have to know how to do it by the time they are at this stage of their career.

And if they can't play the fundamentals, that says something about the system going all the way down to rookie league.

gosox41
05-29-2003, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
No, I don't. A good manager can be a big help, and can be just enough to make a good team into a great team. When you're starting with a very mediocre team, though, what's the point? Unless you're starting with a team that's already pretty good (and I see no evidence that we are), it's the difference between third place and second (in other words, no difference at all). Look at Piniella - are the Rays better with him? Sure. Are they good? Far from it.


By the end of the year, the Sox will be a second place team if JM stays on. By your logic, they would be in first place if someone else were manager. Sonds good to me.

Bob

maurice
05-29-2003, 03:05 PM
Why are so many here opposed to management accepting responsibility for poor performance? It's true that teams lose because the players are not performing, but the responsibility for the poor performance always relates to management. If the cause of the players' poor performance is a bad field manager, it is the fault of the field manager and the fellow who hired the bad field manager. If the cause of the players' poor performance is poor players, it is the fault of the GM who acquired them and the fellow who hired the bad GM. In this case, while he may share credit / blame with the players, manager, and GM, the buck always stops with JR. It's no different for any other Chaiman or CEO.

A corporation's persistent failure to perform = time for a new Chairman / CEO, not time to hire all new employees and to build a prettier factory.

WhiteSoxWinner
05-29-2003, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying JR is the world's best owner or anything. It just seems like you all hate him so much that you can't realize that things could be so much worse. I'd like to get a list from some of you of all the best baseball owners, and all the worst, and what makes them so good and so bad.

The Sox have been in the playoffs 3 times in the last 23 years. Not great, mind you, but not horrible. (The Twins have been in the playoffs 3 times in the same span, too. They've won two championships. The Royals have been in the playoffs twice. They won the series one of the times.) Any one of those 3 times could have been the long awaited championship for the Sox, but the teams just couldn't do what they had to do when it counted. It's not JR's fault when we go have the best record in the league and then go get swept in the first round. Say things had turned out differently, we'd scored a few more runs, we didn't get hurt, and we won the 2000 World Series. What would you all think of JR then?

OK, I don't know what in the world you're driving at here. We have been to the play-offs three times in 23 years and gotten bounced every time. Compare that to other teams who have been there just as often but who win, and I should give JR a pass?

It was JR's payroll restraints that did not let us win in 2000. All we kept hearing about was, "Whoa! We're a year ahead of schedule. Just wait until next year." No, JR you dumbie, you go all out to win when you have a chance to do so. The Sox came out after the break and played lousy, but did you see a deal for an impact, rent-a-player in a year we were going to playoffs?



Originally posted by anewman35
I don't, at least not fully. But he deserves some, doesn't he? He kept MJ and let Krause bring in the supporting players that were needed. If he'd been as cheap and horrible as some say, there would not have been championships, because MJ could not do it alone. My entire point is that there is not one person, or two people, or three, who are entirely responsable for the fate of a team - it's the sum of all the people in the organization, from top to bottom, plus a lot of luck. If JR sold tomorrow, do you think it would ultimitly change a thing? If so, you're dreaming.

No, basketball has a salary cap and the Larry Bird exemption. JR let Krause spend to the cap. The Bulls were the only team that could pay Jordan. Besides that, JR was lucky that Jordan got all the endorsement money and could take a paltry salary from the Bulls. Who would Chicagoans hate if Jordan had decided to sit out for a while or worse demand a trade in protest of a crumby salary? I can tell you it wouldn't have been Jordan in most of the cases. Jordan got a crumby deal, but stuck to it because he could make way more money from the endorsement deals. I also think that Jordan is just a tenacious competitor who could bear to sit out. JR got lucky on that one. How much was JR collecting when the Bulls were the hottest ticket in town, had the best player in the world in his prime, but wouldn't share the wealth with Jordan? Yeah, that JR is a class act. A real players' owner during the Bulls' run.

Jerko
05-29-2003, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
I am so sick of this STUPID argument.

This is the major leagues! This isn't frickin' little league, for crying out loud. If guys don't know how to get down on a groundball or how to catch a flyball with two hands or how to take a correct lead from first base by the time they are here, then we've got bigger problems than the manager.

It's not the manager's job to teach major league ball players fundamentals at this level. These guys have to know how to do it by the time they are at this stage of their career.



Whose job is it, the bag boy at Jewel? I guess we don't need spring training next year since everybody knows everything and the White Sox NEVER make mental errors because they're SOOOO fundamentally sound.................Jeesh. They don't even know how to call each other off the right way.

I'm sure teams like the Braves, Cardinals, Yankees, Mariners, Twins, and other good defensive and successful teams don't have to practice anything or be told what to do by THEIR managers. That damned Joe Torre! He told Jeter to hit the ball behind the runner in motion from first to avoid a double play, how dare he! I also remember the year that "The Kids Can Play" team did well; all I heard was what a great "TEACHER" Manuel was. Why is that not important anymore after 3 years of watching the same mistakes!!!!!!!! Rowand, Crede, Borchard, Harris; they don't need advice? They don't need to be taught things? I agree, Brian26, to a point; Konerko, Thomas, and Mags SHOULD know by now not to hit a 2 hopper to the shortstop every time they're up with a man on first. But they continue to do it. Maybe if Manuel beat it into their heads and spent a week of spring training having everybody that has a history of grounding into DP's doing nothing but shooting the ball to the right side all day, they might be better off. Why can't ANYBODY on this team bunt? No practice, no teaching, that's why. Excuse me for thinking that the manager of a major league baseball team should actually have a role.