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THE_HOOTER
05-27-2003, 09:56 PM
After dealing with several years of horrible baseball, post 1993/94, 2000 seemed to be the start of something great.

Career years from seberal players including Valentin, Eldred, Baldwin, Parque, and Sirtoka helped us win the division.

However, the consistent nucleus of thomas, Ordonez, Lee, Durham, Foulke and Konerko along with all of our pitching prospects somewhat assured us of success in the years to come.

Virtually all of our prospects aside from Buehrle have flopped. Unless of course you count the ones we have traded away.

There have been horrible trades, some questionable ones, and a few good ones as well.

The single biggest reason the Sox have underacheived the last few years is all of these pitching wonders have not made the jump-not one aside from Buerhle.

Our core lineup seems to have been overrated, and the pieces that were filled in around Konerko, Maggs, Valentin, Thomas and Lee have not panned out.

Daver says that stats arent a big indicator of someone's play, and I dont always agree with that.

However, in the case of Jimenez that point is true. He is a horrible baseball player who has no clue how to field or run the bases.

I hope Colon is gone next year-he is not worth the money.

The only players I keep are Buerhle, Marte, Maggs, Lee, and Graffy.

The young guys of Crede, Borchard, Olivo, Stewart, Garland, Wright should all stay as well.

The rest I would shed as soon as possible.

There is something really wrong with this team--I CANT BELIEVE MANUEL STARTED RIOS AT DH IN THE 3 HOLE.

If that doesnt put a team clubhouse in disbelief, I donbt know what will.

I will argue to the death that he is trying to get fired-no one is that stupid.

Bad year for the All Star game. Personally, I think Marte should be our rep.

MRKARNO
05-27-2003, 10:01 PM
Have we reached the bottom yet? no, it'll only get worse

THE_HOOTER
05-27-2003, 10:08 PM
I dont think you understood my post completely.

I fully understand the Sox will lose more games this year, but I was referring to the organization as a hole.

After a glimmer of hope in 2000, we are actually in worse shape than the late 90's.

Changes to the park will be nice-I hate the blue seats- but I really think we have hit bottom.

There is no core to build upon. We could be looking at a pro-longed stretch of stop-gap mid level free agents and sub 500 records.

MRKARNO
05-27-2003, 10:12 PM
I do understand your post. KW will stay with the people on long term contracts. Nothing/no one good will want to come to the south side. KW will stay. The bad attendence will get worse. The media will badmouth the sox constantly. Nobody wants the Big Hurt and we're not gonna pay him without playing him. Colon will be gone. Wright and Garland (who have not much potential) will still be in our rotation. Our pitching prospects who aren't that good will prove to be just that. And we'll enter an era much darker than that of strike-2000

Daver
05-27-2003, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Wright and Garland (who have not much potential) will still be in our rotation.

What did you think of Randy Johnson's potential when he was with the Expos?

MRKARNO
05-27-2003, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by daver
What did you think of Randy Johnson's potential when he was with the Expos?

A. He changed teams once or twice before he got to be amazing

B. I wasn't really that into baseball back whenever that was (i'm only 14)

THE_HOOTER
05-27-2003, 10:32 PM
That iswhy I said keep Garland and Wright. Young pitchers are like QB's.

Sometimes it takes a while for them to reach their potential.

I wish I was a fly on the wall, because I think Manuel might be playing around in order to get fired. He wont quit and give up the dough.

If it comes out that he has been just picking names out of a hat in order to get canned, I will die.

Mammoo
05-27-2003, 10:33 PM
Disappointment-wise this is about as bad as the 1984 season after the "Winning Ugly" year of 1983. :(:

If you can figure out what's wrong with this franchise, you're a better man than I, Gunga Din!

Mammoo (Looking forward to Bourbonnais)

hose
05-27-2003, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by Mammoo
Disappointment-wise this is about as bad as the 1984 season after the "Winning Ugly" year of 1983. :(:

If you can figure out what's wrong with this franchise, you're a better man than I, Gunga Din!

Mammoo (Looking forward to Bourbonnais)


Joe Borchard could always qb for the Bears :cool:

Daver
05-27-2003, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
A. He changed teams once or twice before he got to be amazing

B. I wasn't really that into baseball back whenever that was (i'm only 14)

You might want to learn how pitching works before you make any statements about a pitchers potential,it cannot be based on his numbers,some of the best pitcher's in the game were slow to evolve.Patience and understanding the difference between good mechanics and bad mechanics are a good way to judge young pitchers.

Jurr
05-27-2003, 10:39 PM
Wait....didn't the post 94 White Sox maintain around a .500 average? I don't consider that terrible. I don't see that as "horrible baseball".
Yes, our main desire is for the Sox to be champions, but we also like to see, in the course of a season, wins. Around 81 wins in a 162 game season isn't that bad a thing. You need to hang around up in Pittsburgh sometime. I am with you in saying that we have been snakebitten in the championship pursuit, but I personally, being a big baseball fan, like to see good baseball played by my team that leads to wins.
Yes, sports are 10 times more fun to watch when your team is in the middle of a bunch of "important" games. But, remember, if you approach a season hoping for the best and expecting the worst, no matter how good the team is, you don't freak out and you can actually enjoy the sport.

jeremyb1
05-27-2003, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by THE_HOOTER
After dealing with several years of horrible baseball, post 1993/94, 2000 seemed to be the start of something great.

Career years from seberal players including Valentin, Eldred, Baldwin, Parque, and Sirtoka helped us win the division.

However, the consistent nucleus of thomas, Ordonez, Lee, Durham, Foulke and Konerko along with all of our pitching prospects somewhat assured us of success in the years to come.

Virtually all of our prospects aside from Buehrle have flopped. Unless of course you count the ones we have traded away.

There have been horrible trades, some questionable ones, and a few good ones as well.

The single biggest reason the Sox have underacheived the last few years is all of these pitching wonders have not made the jump-not one aside from Buerhle.

Our core lineup seems to have been overrated, and the pieces that were filled in around Konerko, Maggs, Valentin, Thomas and Lee have not panned out.

Daver says that stats arent a big indicator of someone's play, and I dont always agree with that.

However, in the case of Jimenez that point is true. He is a horrible baseball player who has no clue how to field or run the bases.

I hope Colon is gone next year-he is not worth the money.

The only players I keep are Buerhle, Marte, Maggs, Lee, and Graffy.

The young guys of Crede, Borchard, Olivo, Stewart, Garland, Wright should all stay as well.

The rest I would shed as soon as possible.

There is something really wrong with this team--I CANT BELIEVE MANUEL STARTED RIOS AT DH IN THE 3 HOLE.

If that doesnt put a team clubhouse in disbelief, I donbt know what will.

I will argue to the death that he is trying to get fired-no one is that stupid.

Bad year for the All Star game. Personally, I think Marte should be our rep.

we're certainly at a low point here but i disagree with almost all of your analysis. the starting pitching has not been the problem this year. we're fifth in the al in era right now. considering the fact that wright missed the first month of the season, the abomination that is rick white, and that our defense has frequently played terribly behind the pitching, our pitching has been more than solid.

in retrospect, 2001 wasn't all that much of a failure. we won 83 games despite losing our best hitter in '00, our three best starting pitchers, and nearly half of our bullpen. once you take that into consideration 83 wins isn't much of an underachievement.

when we look back at last season if you ask me the problem was largely offense too. at first that seems ridiculous since we scored the third most runs in the majors compared to this season which has truly demonstrated terrible offensive production. however, our offense is bound to straighten out this season. the problem will be that we most likely dug ourself into too large of a hole with our terrible start.

if you look back at last season, as good as our offense was, its inconsistency hurt us big time last season. we were in first place last season when our offense completely shut down for two weeks. paully went something like 2 for 25, and everyone else followed him. we couldn't score for two weeks and therefore dug ourselves a huge hole just like we have this season (although its been much worse than two weeks.

my theory on why our offense struggles so poorly? we slump because with the exception of a few guys our team lacks plate discipline. if you press too much and chase bad pitches you're going to hit poorly. if you can't take a walk, you won't be able to put runners on base when you're in a slump.

so far this season we rank 9 out of 14 in the al in walks with 156. that doesn't sound terrible until you realize that frank thomas and d'angelo jimenez have combined for half of our walks with 60. no other team has more than 16 walks. no player on our team other than jimenez and thomas has an obp better than .340 and that belongs to maggs, the player with next highest batting average on the team after jimenez.

if you look at our numbers maggs sees on average 3.61 pitches per plate appearance, 3.31 for crede, 3.89 for konerko, 3.71 for jose, and 3.74 (compared to 4.02 last season) for carlos. by comparison the two guys on our team that do walk, frank and jimenez, see 4.28 and 4.02 pitches per appearence. its not a coincidence that those two are of our three or four most productive hitters. its also not a coincidence that the top five teams in the league in walks are the yankees, seattle, boston, and oakland or that the team that is sixth, baltimore, has a better record than us despite possessing much less talent.

hose
05-27-2003, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by daver
You might want to learn how pitching works before you make any statements about a pitchers potential,it cannot be based on his numbers,some of the best pitcher's in the game were slow to evolve.Patience and understanding the difference between good mechanics and bad mechanics are a good way to judge young pitchers.


Randy Johnson is probably the greatest example of a late bloomer.

I believe Bob Lemon was a converted outfielder and turned into a HoF pitcher.

Lemon was also pretty good with the bat.

Wasn't Bobby Thigpen also converted from the outfield in college?

We need some late bloomers Daver :smile:

THE_HOOTER
05-27-2003, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
we're certainly at a low point here but i disagree with almost all of your analysis. the starting pitching has not been the problem this year. we're fifth in the al in era right now. considering the fact that wright missed the first month of the season, the abomination that is rick white, and that our defense has frequently played terribly behind the pitching, our pitching has been more than solid.

in retrospect, 2001 wasn't all that much of a failure. we won 83 games despite losing our best hitter in '00, our three best starting pitchers, and nearly half of our bullpen. once you take that into consideration 83 wins isn't much of an underachievement.

when we look back at last season if you ask me the problem was largely offense too. at first that seems ridiculous since we scored the third most runs in the majors compared to this season which has truly demonstrated terrible offensive production. however, our offense is bound to straighten out this season. the problem will be that we most likely dug ourself into too large of a hole with our terrible start.

if you look back at last season, as good as our offense was, its inconsistency hurt us big time last season. we were in first place last season when our offense completely shut down for two weeks. paully went something like 2 for 25, and everyone else followed him. we couldn't score for two weeks and therefore dug ourselves a huge hole just like we have this season (although its been much worse than two weeks.

my theory on why our offense struggles so poorly? we slump because with the exception of a few guys our team lacks plate discipline. if you press too much and chase bad pitches you're going to hit poorly. if you can't take a walk, you won't be able to put runners on base when you're in a slump.

so far this season we rank 9 out of 14 in the al in walks with 156. that doesn't sound terrible until you realize that frank thomas and d'angelo jimenez have combined for half of our walks with 60. no other team has more than 16 walks. no player on our team other than jimenez and thomas has an obp better than .340 and that belongs to maggs, the player with next highest batting average on the team after jimenez.

if you look at our numbers maggs sees on average 3.61 pitches per plate appearance, 3.31 for crede, 3.89 for konerko, 3.71 for jose, and 3.74 (compared to 4.02 last season) for carlos. by comparison the two guys on our team that do walk, frank and jimenez, see 4.28 and 4.02 pitches per appearence. its not a coincidence that those two are of our three or four most productive hitters. its also not a coincidence that the top five teams in the league in walks are the yankees, seattle, boston, and oakland or that the team that is sixth, baltimore, has a better record than us despite possessing much less talent.


I said none of our young prospects have amounted to anything aside from Buerhle. This was the hope we had for the future.

Pitching wins championships, not hitting.

I agree with your assessment our offense-the inability to get on base and work counts makes our team rely on three run homers and big innings. We really dont manufacture any runs at all.

However, if you look at the stats since 2000, our cant miss prospects have been our downfall.

Mammoo
05-27-2003, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by hose
Joe Borchard could always qb for the Bears :cool:

YIKES! :o: The last California schooled QB we had didn't work out, as I remember. :whiner:

TornLabrum
05-27-2003, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by hose
Randy Johnson is probably the greatest example of a late bloomer.

I believe Bob Lemon was a converted outfielder and turned into a HoF pitcher.

Lemon was also pretty good with the bat.

Wasn't Bobby Thigpen also converted from the outfield in college?

We need some late bloomers Daver :smile:

Don't forget the Sox own Gary Peters.

jeremyb1
05-27-2003, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by THE_HOOTER
I said none of our young prospects have amounted to anything aside from Buerhle. This was the hope we had for the future.

Pitching wins championships, not hitting.

I agree with your assessment our offense-the inability to get on base and work counts makes our team rely on three run homers and big innings. We really dont manufacture any runs at all.

However, if you look at the stats since 2000, our cant miss prospects have been our downfall.

that depends on a number of things. first of all, your definition of "can't miss" is pretty important. i would consider can't miss prospects to have been at least amongst the top ten prospects in baseball at one point. that immediately removes all of our prospects from the running with the exception of rauch who's been derailed by his health, kip wells who's been phenominal for the pirates over the last season and a half, and garland.

with the exception of those three players, our minor league depth was always a product of our depth more than anything else. that depth has produced solid players such as wright, buehrle, fogg and biddle and should be viewed as a success for that reason.

in my opinion ending up with and ace and two league average pitchers in our rotation all of whom are still 25 or younger should not be looked at as a failure on the part of our farm system. a lot of teams would kill for that kind of development.

i still fail to see how pitching has been our downfall this season when we're one of the bottom four teams in the al in hitting and runs scored. i agree pitching wins championships but you have to get to the playoffs first and no team can do that without offense which we've had none of recently.

THE_HOOTER
05-27-2003, 11:26 PM
I have to agree with you; You would need five aces to support this lineup to be competative.

As far as our cant miss prospects, if Wells and Garland had turned out to be as good as Buerhle, who I consider a great #2, we probably could have saved the Colon money to sign a CF, and improve our up-the-middle situation.

There have been many opportunities- Damon, Beltran, Jermain Dye, to name a few.

Every off season we search for pitching and hope for the best with our lineup.

If we had a Rotation of Wells, Garland, Rauch, Buerhle, and whoever, our payroll would be primarily in the lineup.

We could have kept Foulke, and re-signed him. We could have kept durham as well.

I know a lot of folks here were glad Durham left, but we sure could use his 100 runs/year now.

Viva Magglio
05-27-2003, 11:35 PM
The low point will be if, God forbid, we lose a series to the Cubs. That will enrage the fan base so much that I don't see Manuel surviving the fallout.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-27-2003, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
The low point will be if, God forbid, we lose a series to the Cubs. That will enrage the fan base so much that I don't see Manuel surviving the fallout.

Losing 3-straight to the Flubbies will be the equivalent to nuclear winter for Sox fandom. After the all-star break you'll be able to roll bowling balls through the main concourse and not hit a single person.

siugrad25
05-27-2003, 11:46 PM
I think Maggs summed up the whole season with this one quote from tonight's drubbing:

"We stink," Magglio Ordonez said.


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=230527114

Viva Magglio
05-28-2003, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Losing 3-straight to the Flubbies will be the equivalent to nuclear winter for Sox fandom. After the all-star break you'll be able to roll bowling balls through the main concourse and not hit a single person.

You could also have a coyote stampede along the main councourse too as well, and nobody would notice.

THE_HOOTER
05-28-2003, 11:57 AM
I sn't it already like that for the most part?