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View Full Version : So how does the Sox farm system really rank?


gosox41
05-27-2003, 03:49 PM
All this draft talk has me thinking about how good the Sox farm system really is. I know they were ranked #1 after the 2000 season but it seems to me that was a mistake. I just want to see if KW is as incompetent as I think he is or if he can do at least one thing right in the organization.

I think the Sox PR machine does an excellent job overhyping their prospects. Where is all that pitching? Outside of Mark Buehrle, name one pitcher that is still on the Sox that they drafted and is making good contributions.

Looks like the Sox sold us fans another bag of crap. Based on what I've read, the Birmingham AA team has no significant everyday prospect. Borchard hasn't been impressive in the minors at all (or so far in the majors). Honel may be a stud. But what happened to all that great pitching we Sox fans were promised. All these "waves" that was talked about. The only 3 pitchers on the Sox 25 man roster that are 100% homegrown are Wright, Bueherle, and Sanders. Everyone else was gotten through a trade/free agency. We are almost six years into a rebuilding process (the one that started July 31, 1997) where the emphasis was going to be on young pitching and smart, athletic everyday baseball players.

Maybe one day Rauch, Malone, Dennis U., Strumm, Malone, and West will all live up to their hype. We've been hearing about them for 4-5 years now. More then likely they'll be journeymen at best. I do realize how the odds are stacked against an individual making the majors, but the Sox have spent about 70% of their picks in the first 5 rounds the last 5 years on pitching and all we got to show for the success is a 38th round Mark Buehrle and maybe Danny Wright.

Bob

jeremyb1
05-27-2003, 04:20 PM
a lot of times i feel as though peoples' expectations for a strong farm system are out of line. they're aren't too many winning ball clubs populated entirely by their young players. if you look at our starting lineup right now, garland (he started for a ball for us so i consider him to be a product of our system), wright, buehrle, maggs, carlos, olivo, borchard, frank, and sanders are all home grown. our farm system also produced josh fogg, joe valentine, rocky biddle, and kip wells. that's pretty good if you ask me.

as of right now its been a couple years since our farm system was considered to be one of the better ones in the game. our farm system is decent with a number of promising players in rauch, ryan wing, anthony webster, cotts, jeremy reed, royce ring and honel but its no longer one of the top systems in the game.

Randar68
05-27-2003, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
All this draft talk has me thinking about how good the Sox farm system really is. I know they were ranked #1 after the 2000 season but it seems to me that was a mistake. I just want to see if KW is as incompetent as I think he is or if he can do at least one thing right in the organization.

I think the Sox PR machine does an excellent job overhyping their prospects. Where is all that pitching? Outside of Mark Buehrle, name one pitcher that is still on the Sox that they drafted and is making good contributions.


Sox PR Machine??? Where is this machine???

Baseball America and Baseball Prospectus among others all had us at or near the top in the 1999, 2000 timeframe. A lot of the players that were the cause of this have been dealt or promoted to the majors.

Right now we are thin at the AA and AAA level outside of a couple of prospects. However, we have some very good talent in the lower minors right now that just needs time to mature.

There is no team in baseball that year-in, year-out is in the top 5 in minor-league talent. Teams promote/trade prospects in waves, that's just the way it works.

The Sox have had a lot of turnover, but they are not totally barren. Right now the Sox Farm System is somewhere in the middle of the pack.

gosox41
05-27-2003, 09:47 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
a lot of times i feel as though peoples' expectations for a strong farm system are out of line. they're aren't too many winning ball clubs populated entirely by their young players. if you look at our starting lineup right now, garland (he started for a ball for us so i consider him to be a product of our system), wright, buehrle, maggs, carlos, olivo, borchard, frank, and sanders are all home grown. our farm system also produced josh fogg, joe valentine, rocky biddle, and kip wells. that's pretty good if you ask me.

as of right now its been a couple years since our farm system was considered to be one of the better ones in the game. our farm system is decent with a number of promising players in rauch, ryan wing, anthony webster, cotts, jeremy reed, royce ring and honel but its no longer one of the top systems in the game.

It's more the pitching (or lack of it) that has disappointed me the most. All the talk about the Sox farm system has been about the strength of the pitching.

What strength? For the amount of draft picks invested in pitching, I certainly expected more then this 4-5 years later. Maybe if the Sox had drafted less pitching in the early rounds of the draft (maybe 45-50% instead of closer to 70% of players picked) the team would have a decent CF and have some depth at the positions to not put up with these long slumps or keep resgining Sandy Alomar.

I certainly don't expect miracles, or for every player the Sox draft to be a stud. But the fact is the Sox have a couple of handicaps working for them: 1. Limited budget and 2. KW's inability to make trades.

The Sox need to rely on their farm system as much as Oakland does. It seems they always something good waiting in the wings. And they managed to draft 3 #1 starters in a few drafts. The Sox probably commit more money on their farm system in player development, scouting, etc. then the A's and they have a lot less to show for it. Unless the team figures out a way to become a player in the free agent market or gets a GM who can make a good trade more then once every blue moon, the farm system is the key reason this team is going to win anything.

Bob

Dadawg_77
05-27-2003, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
It's more the pitching (or lack of it) that has disappointed me the most. All the talk about the Sox farm system has been about the strength of the pitching.

What strength? For the amount of draft picks invested in pitching, I certainly expected more then this 4-5 years later. Maybe if the Sox had drafted less pitching in the early rounds of the draft (maybe 45-50% instead of closer to 70% of players picked) the team would have a decent CF and have some depth at the positions to not put up with these long slumps or keep resgining Sandy Alomar.

I certainly don't expect miracles, or for every player the Sox draft to be a stud. But the fact is the Sox have a couple of handicaps working for them: 1. Limited budget and 2. KW's inability to make trades.

The Sox need to rely on their farm system as much as Oakland does. It seems they always something good waiting in the wings. And they managed to draft 3 #1 starters in a few drafts. The Sox probably commit more money on their farm system in player development, scouting, etc. then the A's and they have a lot less to show for it. Unless the team figures out a way to become a player in the free agent market or gets a GM who can make a good trade more then once every blue moon, the farm system is the key reason this team is going to win anything.

Bob

hey ask yourself how many high school players Oakland drafted vs how many college players the Sox have drafted?

MRKARNO
05-27-2003, 09:55 PM
Is Neil Cotts the only organizational talent with Mark Buerhle Potential?

Daver
05-27-2003, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
It's more the pitching (or lack of it) that has disappointed me the most. All the talk about the Sox farm system has been about the strength of the pitching.

What strength? For the amount of draft picks invested in pitching, I certainly expected more then this 4-5 years later. Maybe if the Sox had drafted less pitching in the early rounds of the draft (maybe 45-50% instead of closer to 70% of players picked) the team would have a decent CF and have some depth at the positions to not put up with these long slumps or keep resgining Sandy Alomar.

I certainly don't expect miracles, or for every player the Sox draft to be a stud. But the fact is the Sox have a couple of handicaps working for them: 1. Limited budget and 2. KW's inability to make trades.

The Sox need to rely on their farm system as much as Oakland does. It seems they always something good waiting in the wings. And they managed to draft 3 #1 starters in a few drafts. The Sox probably commit more money on their farm system in player development, scouting, etc. then the A's and they have a lot less to show for it. Unless the team figures out a way to become a player in the free agent market or gets a GM who can make a good trade more then once every blue moon, the farm system is the key reason this team is going to win anything.

Bob

I'm gonna bring up a couple points here and I am done on this topic.

If you want to blame anyone for the current state of the Sox farm system blame Ron Schueler,that fool thought he was smarter than the scouts for years,and now they are paying the price for it.He was told straight out,by his scouting director that Mark Johnson would be available in the third round,Ron took him in the first round anyway,because he was signable.He was told straight out that Jason Delearo was not a first round pick,he drafted him anyway.Ron Schueler is responsible for the lack of talent at the upper levels of this system.Kenny Williams has actually improved this system more than he has done anything else.

The Sox do not even come close to the A's as far as scouting goes,the A's scout everything because they know they are not going to re-sign anyone that is arbitration eligible,and the A's do a better job of it because they target their scouting well.

Find a new scapegoat for this,the one you have ain't working.

hose
05-27-2003, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Is Neil Cotts the only organizational talent with Mark Buerhle Potential?


Cotts has put up awesome numbers at all levels he has pitched at.

His walk total is high but his strike outs are exceptional and he also doesn't give up hits. Right now he is at AA and might get moved up to AAA before this year is up.

Royce Ring is doing real good and should make the bigs in the future.

All the other prospects are a crap shoot. A player might dominate at high A ball and then make a succesfull move to AA but then peter out.

No player from A ball, no matter how good he is doing, is going to be rushed into MLB by the Sox.

Keep an eye on Wing and Honel . Both these guys are very talented and are up and comers.

Daver
05-27-2003, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by hose


Keep an eye on Wing and Honel . Both these guys are very talented and are up and comers.

You may also want to keep an eye on Ryan Meaux,Wyatt Allen,Jeremy Reed,and Anthony Webster,as well as Ruddy Yan,all of them may be moving up to the next level soon.

Vsahajpal
05-27-2003, 10:37 PM
Limited budget hurts, so hopefully my guy LTP makes it big.

Sox scouts really do a wonderful job finding talent, and they've had luck with DF&E recently. Unfortunately this is offset by their inablity to slot and superslot guys like Zeringue, Mattox, Richie, and a few others.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but the Sox haven't mined talent from Latin America as well as other teams have (recently). Is Munoz their only 'standout' guy? Diaz and Yan were acquired via trade, can't think of many others.

Hummel's slide has really caught me by suprise. Hope he gets his act together.


Draft in 7 days, I wonder if the Sox will re-draft Tom Gorzelanny, big lefty from Orland Park whom they grabbed in 2000 late in the draft. He has really increased his stock, some 3 years later, potential 2-5 round pick.

jeremyb1
05-27-2003, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
It's more the pitching (or lack of it) that has disappointed me the most. All the talk about the Sox farm system has been about the strength of the pitching.

What strength? For the amount of draft picks invested in pitching, I certainly expected more then this 4-5 years later. Maybe if the Sox had drafted less pitching in the early rounds of the draft (maybe 45-50% instead of closer to 70% of players picked) the team would have a decent CF and have some depth at the positions to not put up with these long slumps or keep resgining Sandy Alomar.

I certainly don't expect miracles, or for every player the Sox draft to be a stud. But the fact is the Sox have a couple of handicaps working for them: 1. Limited budget and 2. KW's inability to make trades.

The Sox need to rely on their farm system as much as Oakland does. It seems they always something good waiting in the wings. And they managed to draft 3 #1 starters in a few drafts. The Sox probably commit more money on their farm system in player development, scouting, etc. then the A's and they have a lot less to show for it. Unless the team figures out a way to become a player in the free agent market or gets a GM who can make a good trade more then once every blue moon, the farm system is the key reason this team is going to win anything.

pitchers are always a crapshoot to a certain extent while they're in the minors. pitchers are ussually rated on their upside more than the chance they'll come close to reaching their potential because even with the best prospects like rick ankiel its easy for their careers' to be derailed.

i will maintain that we had three homegrown starters in our rotation for the entire season last year that combined for 45 victories. that may fall short of some peoples' expectations but outside of oakland you won't find many stellar rotations populated almost entirely by young, home grown pitchers.

if you look around the league the only teams with a good deal of strong home grown pitching are the cubs, the a's, and the phillies. the astros have oswalt and miller but miller has struggles this season, the mariners have pineiro and meche but garcia has struggled the last two season, and the expos acquired ohka and day in trades with armas (who's currently hurt) and vazquez as their home grown starters.

it'd be a stretch to say all the pitchers we had in '00 lived up to expectations. ginter, myette, and west haven't lived up to expectations, barcelo was injured, and the jury is still out on rauch. however, as i said in my previous post buehrle, wright, garland, wells, biddle, and fogg are all at least decent major leaguers right now and they're all still rather young. that's a pretty reasonable success rate as far as pitching prospects go. the blame for the fact that some of those pitchers are no longer in our organization must be directed elsewhere.

Vsahajpal
05-28-2003, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
pitchers are always a crapshoot to a certain extent while they're in the minors. pitchers are ussually rated on their upside more than the chance they'll come close to reaching their potential because even with the best prospects like rick ankiel its easy for their careers' to be derailed.

i will maintain that we had three homegrown starters in our rotation for the entire season last year that combined for 45 victories. that may fall short of some peoples' expectations but outside of oakland you won't find many stellar rotations populated almost entirely by young, home grown pitchers.

if you look around the league the only teams with a good deal of strong home grown pitching are the cubs, the a's, and the phillies. the astros have oswalt and miller but miller has struggles this season, the mariners have pineiro and meche but garcia has struggled the last two season, and the expos acquired ohka and day in trades with armas (who's currently hurt) and vazquez as their home grown starters.

it'd be a stretch to say all the pitchers we had in '00 lived up to expectations. ginter, myette, and west haven't lived up to expectations, barcelo was injured, and the jury is still out on rauch. however, as i said in my previous post buehrle, wright, garland, wells, biddle, and fogg are all at least decent major leaguers right now and they're all still rather young. that's a pretty reasonable success rate as far as pitching prospects go. the blame for the fact that some of those pitchers are no longer in our organization must be directed elsewhere.

Ankiel's a bad example, but your point is well taken.

Armas was also acquired in a trade, so was Freddy Garcia.

jeremyb1
05-28-2003, 03:45 AM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
Ankiel's a bad example, but your point is well taken.

Armas was also acquired in a trade, so was Freddy Garcia.

yeah you're right i forgot about armas and garcia. as for ankiel my only point is that absolutely anything can happen. no one would have expected personal problems and mental problems to derail his career but pitchers are a funny breed like that. probably even more significantly, ankiel has had arm problems over the last few years which are typical of young pitchers who fizzle out.

NC_sox_fan
05-28-2003, 09:53 AM
Seeing is believing....right? Last year the Warthogs were 50 - 90. The WORST team we've ever had. We had decent pitching, but absolutely no hitting. So....this year there was nothing great to send to Birmingham.

This year we have the best team we've had since 1998 when we went to the Carolina League Championship. With pitchers Ryan Wing, Kris Honel, Byeong An, Frank Francisco and Wyatt Allen we have the most solid pitching line-up in the league. Then, add our position talent: Ruddy Yan, Jeremy Reed, Casey Rogowski, Tommy Nicholson, and Daylan Holt. Finally add in the best closer in the league: Ryan Meaux.

I can't speak for Kannapolis (haven't seen them yet), but I think from Winston-Salem on up, the Sox have managed to strengthen their minor league teams a lot this year.

Have any of you ever seen any of the Sox farm teams?

Randar68
05-28-2003, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by daver
You may also want to keep an eye on Ryan Meaux,Wyatt Allen,Jeremy Reed,and Anthony Webster,as well as Ruddy Yan,all of them may be moving up to the next level soon.

Wyatt Allen may move up, but the Sox have still been unable to get his control and inconsistent arm angles under control.

Randar68
05-28-2003, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
And correct me if I'm wrong, but the Sox haven't mined talent from Latin America as well as other teams have (recently). Is Munoz their only 'standout' guy? Diaz and Yan were acquired via trade, can't think of many others.

All of those are correct. The Sox have some developmental scouts and facility in the Dominican IIRC, but the last contributors they signed out of Latin America were Carlos Lee from Panama and Ordonez from Venezuela. Munoz too. They don't spend the time and $$$ needed for international scouting. They have little to no Asian scouting presense, despite having Man Soo Lee as an ambassador to the region, they don't utilize that to it's fullest potential.

Originally posted by Vsahajpal
Hummel's slide has really caught me by suprise. Hope he gets his act together.


Amen for that. I really think the positional instability has hampered his development as a hitter. They change their mind every year what position he plays and it detracts from his time and mental focus on his hitting. JMHO.

Randar68
05-28-2003, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Is Neil Cotts the only organizational talent with Mark Buerhle Potential?

That's going way too far. He is not a future top of the rotation pitcher.

gosox41
05-28-2003, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by daver
I'm gonna bring up a couple points here and I am done on this topic.

If you want to blame anyone for the current state of the Sox farm system blame Ron Schueler,that fool thought he was smarter than the scouts for years,and now they are paying the price for it.He was told straight out,by his scouting director that Mark Johnson would be available in the third round,Ron took him in the first round anyway,because he was signable.He was told straight out that Jason Delearo was not a first round pick,he drafted him anyway.Ron Schueler is responsible for the lack of talent at the upper levels of this system.Kenny Williams has actually improved this system more than he has done anything else.

The Sox do not even come close to the A's as far as scouting goes,the A's scout everything because they know they are not going to re-sign anyone that is arbitration eligible,and the A's do a better job of it because they target their scouting well.

Find a new scapegoat for this,the one you have ain't working.

I thought KW was running the drafts in 1999 and 2000. Or so it's been reported. If that's the case, that's 4 drafts KW has been in charge of. Most of Schu's picks (and they were stupid) are long gone. I doubt the 1994 pick being a flop is as much of a negative as that player would most likely be a 26 year old bust as watching tese current picks flop.

Sure Sch was lousy. But how has KW proved himself any better.

Was it Schu or KW who digned Ordonez and drafted Buehrle? Who gets the credit?

Bob