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PaleHoseGeorge
05-24-2003, 11:50 PM
...will Jerry Reinsdorf FINALLY give up and sell this ballclub?

It's NEVER going to happen, Jerry. You failed. 23 seasons after promising a "first class organization", you're further from your goal than the day you started.

Leave the keys on your desk. We'll forward your last check. Just go, and be quick about it.

:selljerry

Daver
05-24-2003, 11:52 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
...will Jerry Reinsdorf FINALLY give up and sell this ballclub?

It's NEVER going to happen, Jerry. You failed. 23 seasons after promising a "first class organization", you're further from your goal than the day you started.

Leave the keys on your desk. We'll forward your last check. Just go, and be quick about it.

:selljerry

Pipe dreams are supposed to be in deep pink PHG.

chisox06
05-24-2003, 11:55 PM
This team royally sucks. Theres now way Im going to spend my hard earned money on these underachieving losers.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-25-2003, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by daver
Pipe dreams are supposed to be in deep pink PHG.

I can't remember being this frustrated with any Sox team since the late-80's. Does anybody have a clue what direction this franchise is taking? It's beyond hopeless. We can't even use the old excuse to blame our ballpark for being too old and decrepit for our team's failures.

I'm convinced Reinsdorf could screw up a one-car funeral. Only through personal perseverance (aka "stubbornness") could anyone remain a fan of Jerry Reinsdorf's Chicago White Sox.

The man is a complete cancer on this franchise.

:selljerry

MHOUSE
05-25-2003, 12:13 AM
These last three years that I have been a pretty avid fan of the Sox have been very disappointing. At least the Bulls were good and have turned it around and showed signs of improvement last year. There is just no reason I see this team turning it around this year or ever. It's time to strip it down and backup the truck. All the hype, good moves, signings, this was it. Losing a series to Detroit sums it up.

Viva Magglio
05-25-2003, 12:21 AM
Jerry Reinsdorf is the problem with our franchise. It is his stubborn and stingy ways that have prevented us from getting to what Reinsdorf calls "Point C," or championship. Sure, we have problems with the general manager. Sure, the field manager is a problem. Sure, there are plenty of other problems contributing to the never ending malaise that plagues our franchise. However, all of those problems are mere byproducts of the one real problem: Chairman Reinsdorf.

This malaise will only die if the team is sold to someone that will not ailenate the fan base. As long as Reinsdorf is in charge, the problems will never completely go away.

:selljerry

MHOUSE
05-25-2003, 12:30 AM
Maybe this is all a master plan by the players to get the team so bad that Jerry starts losing a lot of money and gives up and sells and ultimately gives us a chance. Or....maybe not. Jerry reminds me of Castro. He's been around for so long and nobody wants him but he won't leave!

Hangar18
05-25-2003, 12:56 PM
I cant believe im going to LA to watch this pathetic team.
Im gonna take my Reinsdorf Must Sell sign......

Brian26
05-25-2003, 01:13 PM
How in the hell is this Reinsdorf's fault?

You've got to be kidding me. How is it Reinsdorf's fault that a team, assembled this Spring with enough talent to win their division easily, is not producing? PHG's argument just doesn't make sense to me. You're blaming Reinsdorf as if he hasn't spent money on this team or approved moves to bring guys in here. He re-signed Maggs, Konerko, Frank. He approved the Colon deal to bring him here. Are you saying Reinsdorf hasn't spent ENOUGH money on this team? Didn't we all think this team was good enough at the beginning of the year to win something? And even if JR spent more money to bring more guys in here, who's fault would it be if they weren't producing either? Are you saying that Reinsdorf should sell the team because he won't fire Manual, even though he was a plenty-fine manager 3 years ago when this team ran away with the Central.

Please give me a reason why it is Reinsdorf's fault that he's paying these guys money to not pop up into short center and constantly hit into inning-ending groundball double plays.

:angry:

PaleHoseGeorge
05-25-2003, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
How in the hell is this Reinsdorf's fault?


For 23 seasons, he is perfectly content to do just enough NOT to win. Trade for one necessary piece of the puzzle by trading away another necessary piece. Pay handsomely for a ballplayer, then refuse to admit the mistake by getting rid of him before he does anymore damage. Reward loyalty over competence in practically every front office decision. Oh yes, let's not forget blaming and insulting your own paying customers when the entire charade blows up in your face.

Hey, you think Jerry wants to win? I think Jerry wants to win, too. I just don't think Jerry (or you) will ever do what it takes to win. That's the difference between you and me.

After 23 seasons, I say enough is enough. Perhaps you can understand that.

:selljerry

Lip Man 1
05-25-2003, 01:56 PM
Brian:

With respect I didn't think this team was good enough to win the division (look up the pre season picks) and yes it is Uncle Jerry's fault for twenty years of horriffic PR decisions that have driven away most of the fan base he inherited.

Why is that important? Because if he still had his fan base, he and the franchise might have been better equiped to survive the lean/ mediocre years and been in a better position to do what is necessary when the time was right.

This team had holes in the starting rotation, at catcher, in center field and at second base. They had more question marks then any "contender." They were a contender by virture of being in baseball's worst division only.

To put it another way, would you have picked the Sox with this same roster to contend in the A.L. West or East?

Just wondering.

Lip

mrwag
05-25-2003, 02:34 PM
I think the blame has to fall on KW. He's the guy responsible for looking into the trades, filling the holes, not Reinsdorf. Reinsdorf is the guy with the pocket book, not the guy making the deals. KW is why we have so damn many holes and crappy lineups.

I give credit for Colon, but the rest of the acquisitions have been pointless, if not idiotic. The sooner KW is gone, along with JM, the sooner this train wreck gets back on the rails. I have to side if JR on this one, except for the fact he's kept those below him in power as long as he has. That's where the blame falls.

As far as why this team has fallen apart, its not due to lack of talent. We should be kicking butt in this weak division. But it's obvious there's a management problem and the players have quit on them. Serious housecleaning needs to happen. Keep the players - we know their potential.

However, this is a 3rd place team in the West or East divisions.

Viva Magglio
05-25-2003, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by mrwag
I think the blame has to fall on KW...

Who was it that hired KW? Jerry Reinsdorf. Reinsdorf hired KW because KW is a second-rate, on-the-cheap hire. So is Manuel. How do KW and JM's respective salaries compare to those of other more successful teams' general and field managers respectively? Reinsdorf spend the money it takes to lure a first-rate GM. And he won't do the same for a field manager either.

Brian26
05-25-2003, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
For 23 seasons, he is perfectly content to do just enough NOT to win.

Ok, are we talking about what's going on this season or what happened in 1985? Your initial statement is ridiculous. Why would Jerry undermine his own organization by doing just enough not to win? That's crazy. JR's a millionaire many times over, so I know he has more business savvy than you and me combined, PHG. Don't make dumb statements.

Trade for one necessary piece of the puzzle by trading away another necessary piece.

Yeah, because Al Osuna and Jeff Leifer were the final pieces to the puzzle here. Please dont tell me that Biddle was a key piece either. There was never any intention of using him as a closer. Although he had decent stuff at time, he showed nothing more than #4/#5 starter potential here.

Pay handsomely for a ballplayer, then refuse to admit the mistake by getting rid of him before he does anymore damage.

Wrong. See Royce Clayton. Along the same lines, look at a bum they didnt resign like James Baldwin.

Reward loyalty over competence in practically every front office decision.

Are either of us really qualified to assess and critique front office personnel moves? Or are you referring to the obvious, overplayed Danny Evans vs. Kenny Williams debate?

Oh yes, let's not forget blaming and insulting your own paying customers when the entire charade blows up in your face.

I don't feel like the White Sox have blamed ME, as a fan, for the mediocre start to the season.

Hey, you think Jerry wants to win? I think Jerry wants to win, too. I just don't think Jerry (or you) will ever do what it takes to win.

Huh? Me? I don't run the team. What can I do to make this team win other than go to as many damn games as I can and blow lots of money on kosher dogs and lemon chills? Explain yourself.

After 23 seasons, I say enough is enough. Perhaps you can understand that.

Well, since 1981, there have been some other teams who haven't won the World Series too. The Cubs, Rangers, Mariners, Brewers, Red Sox, Indians, Rockies, Devil Rays, Phillies, Pirates, Expos, Padres, Giants, and Astros.

Wow. Of 30 teams, 14 haven't won the World Series since 1981. Let's not include the Rockies or Devil Rays since they are expansion teams. That leaves 12. Let's not include the Phillies (since they won it in 1980) or the Pirates (since they won it in 1979). That leaves 10. Of the 10 left, let's subtract the teams that went to the World Series (Brewers, Red Sox, Indians, Padres, Giants). Except for the Padres, the rest of those teams were within a game of winning the World Series anyway. So, taking those 5 away, that leaves only 5 teams basically since 1979, in addition to the White Sox, that havent really been to the World Series (The Cubs, Rangers, Mariners, Expos and Astros). That's interesting.

One could argue that the 1994 White Sox team would have made the World Series. They may have also lost in the first round of the playoffs.

The last two paragraphs may have helped PHG's argument here. It's interesting though. You can almost disqualify the Expos because of their market. That's a very small group of teams, with the Sox and Cubs being in the largest market.

Brian26
05-25-2003, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
To put it another way, would you have picked the Sox with this same roster to contend in the A.L. West or East?

Just wondering.

Lip


No way in hell. I would have only picked the Sox in the Central. They have no chance at the wild card either. They'd have to win the AL Central title. With that in mind, anything can happen in the playoffs. Just as the Sox got swept by the M's in 2000, and the wild card teams have been going to the World Series lately...as long as the Sox could squeak into the playoffs, I don't think it's impossible to think they couldnt get hot at the right time and beat the A's or Yankees in a short series. You have to get to the playoffs first though.

captain54
05-26-2003, 12:13 AM
Originally posted by Brian26
How in the hell is this Reinsdorf's fault?

Are you saying that Reinsdorf should sell the team because he won't fire Manual, even though he was a plenty-fine manager 3 years ago when this team ran away with the Central.



I don't care if Reinsdorf has ownership in the team, I just don't want him calling the shots on the day to day operation of the White Sox....this is the same man that approved the hiring of Terry Bevington as the Sox manager to replace Gene Lamont....

Manuel, in my mind, was never "a plenty fine manager".....we had one good half of baseball in 2000, the rest of the year was back to the usual mediocrity, including the playoffs......since then his lackluster attitude and personality have transferred themselves to the demeanor of the players to the point where they look like could care less whether they win or lose....

Keep in mind that not only have we not won a World Series, we have not appeared in one, nor won a playoff home game in the 23 years of the Reinsdorf regime.....if the players don't perform, they should be removed from the team..if the ownership doesnt deliver, the should be held accountable also....

pissonthecubs
05-26-2003, 12:39 AM
Oh Pale Hose, if it was only that easy, we'd have World Series titles to brag about!


___________
"It takes hundreds of nuts to build a motorcycle, and just one in car to wreck it."

MarkEdward
05-26-2003, 01:18 AM
Originally posted by captain54

if the ownership doesnt deliver, the should be held accountable also....

Really though, what hasn't ownership delivered on? Throughout the 90s, the Sox were a high payroll team. He does put money into this club. He's willing to spend money, but his GMs usually spend it on the wrong players.

I guess I'm a Jerry Reinsdorf apologist. We could do much worse as far as owners go. I don't even think he's the worst owner in our division. Ilitch, Glass, and Pohlad are much worse. I find fault in Reinsdorf's loyalty. This problem lead to the hiring of Kenny Williams, who has been one the biggest reasons that we haven't made it back to the playoffs since 2000.

captain54
05-26-2003, 03:04 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Really though, what hasn't ownership delivered on?

How about winning a playoff series?? that seems light years away, I'm afraid...

I wouldn't call Reinsdorf guilty of excessive loyalty, I would find him guilty of loving two rosey red lips planted on his behind...

PaleHoseGeorge
05-26-2003, 08:10 AM
what hasn't ownership delivered on?

Well let's see. Reinsdorf ownership hasn't delivered on:

1. A home game post-season victory-- EVER.

2. A victory in a post-season game in 10 years.

3. A post-season series victory-- EVER.

4. Pennant? World Championship? *****!!! Only in your wet dreams...

All of this has happened since the 1981 promise to build "a first class organization." Strange, but to my way of thinking, Reinsdorf's "organization" looks suspiciously like the same ones that made the Sox the MOST INFEEBLED franchise in the entire league.

Yeah, let's blame Paul Konerko, Jon Garland, Jerry Manuel, et al for this 23-year nightmare. Yeah, that's the ticket...

Dan H
05-26-2003, 08:40 AM
I'm with George on this one. Some fans may be satisfied with a division crown every 10 years or will be happy that the Sox have been better than the Expos or Rangers. All I know is that the Sox have been to only one World Series since 1919, and Jerry Reinsdorf has run the team for 23 of those years.

The simple fact is that Jerry blew it. In 1994, the White Sox were drawing and winning. Then came the strike, disappointing seasons and the White Flag Trade. Interest faded and the Chicago sports media started blaming the fans for the seemingly bleak future of the franchise. All of this fed on itself, and the franchise has truly suffered.

It is either a time for a change of ownership or change in philosophy. No more hiring inexperienced people in key positions. No more cheaping it out. No more inaction as Rome burns. I like Jerry Manuel as a person but not as a manager. Kenny Williams has actually done some good things, but he is not the one to lead the team out of this mess. It is time for someone to do something. And if Jerry Reinsdorf can't see that, turn the club over to someone who does.

TornLabrum
05-26-2003, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by Dan H
I'm with George on this one. Some fans may be satisfied with a division crown every 10 years or will be happy that the Sox have been better than the Expos or Rangers. All I know is that the Sox have been to only one World Series since 1919, and Jerry Reinsdorf has run the team for 23 of those years.

The simple fact is that Jerry blew it. In 1994, the White Sox were drawing and winning. Then came the strike, disappointing seasons and the White Flag Trade. Interest faded and the Chicago sports media started blaming the fans for the seemingly bleak future of the franchise. All of this fed on itself, and the franchise has truly suffered.

It is either a time for a change of ownership or change in philosophy. No more hiring inexperienced people in key positions. No more cheaping it out. No more inaction as Rome burns. I like Jerry Manuel as a person but not as a manager. Kenny Williams has actually done some good things, but he is not the one to lead the team out of this mess. It is time for someone to do something. And if Jerry Reinsdorf can't see that, turn the club over to someone who does.

Unfortunately, Dan, we got a preview of what was to come last week when one of the ownership group said that if the Sox didn't appear to be playoff bound, they would cut salary. Nothing about the GM or manager, just trade players.

You have to admit, this rebuilding program at least lasted 6 years instead of the usual 5. Now it's time to go through the same old crap one more time.

Hangar18
05-26-2003, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by mrwag

I give credit for Colon, but the rest of the acquisitions have been pointless, if not idiotic. The sooner KW is gone, along with JM, the sooner this train wreck gets back on the rails.



I for one DONT give Kenny too much Credit for getting Colon. All we did is do what the Cubs have been doing the last couple of years, that is, Stealing from the "Homeless" and Looking for the "Handout". We got Colon ONLY BECAUSE THE ONLY OTHER TEAM INVOLVED was the dumbass Florida Marlins. Someone Fax the Marlins and let them know its NOT OK to stock other teams with your talent, and get nothing in return. Thats the same team that gave away Alfatseca & then threw in Clement, knowing they needed pitching. How Stupid is that team. Sure, the player they got might be decent after all (willis) But that was only One player, they shouldve gotten a couple more from them. (now theyre talking about getting rid of Lowell 3B, because the Need Pitching BAD. they'll get real close to first place, then realize they need Established Veteran hitting, and then they'll wonder why the traded Lowell to the cubs in the first place) The Marlins are a Stupid Organization who have gotten lucky with some of their pitching draft picks (who are all hurt now) and theyre only getting Dumber once they trade Lowell. The Marlins are the Team you play Poker with. The Marlins are the team you sell the Brooklyn Bridge to. You know what the old saying goes.....Theres One Born Every Minute.

Hangar18
05-26-2003, 11:39 AM
Know this. WE GOT LUCKY to get Colon, because if any other team was in the Sweepstakes, we wouldnt Have gotten him.
We got lucky to get a 1st class pitcher. Now....do you think the Sox are going to be smart and A) Capitalize on this situation? Or are they going to B) Let Colon become a FA next year, because they "dont have the money"?? (then next year, were going to overpay/overtrade because we need Veteran Pitching again. Im so tired of this stupid Cycle this team involves itself in)
Lets see, if im a betting man, and I know that this team likes to go with Choice "B" (even though it hasnt worked for them yet)
I would have to say the Sox will go with Choice "B"

Brian26
05-26-2003, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
I for one DONT give Kenny too much Credit for getting Colon.

Cmon Hangar. You have to give credit to Kenny. Remember how you felt back on that day in January when the trade was made. Giving up Leifer, Osuna, Biddle and some cash for Colon is a steal! Also, you can't use the argument that "no other teams were involved" as an excuse. You have to give Kenny credit for staying on his cell phone day and night getting inside the head of the Expos GM. As Soxfest, Kenny said he was probably talking to the Expos every day for 2 months. The reason that no other teams were in contention for Colon is because KW put the Sox in a good position (the best position) to get him.

KW isn't perfect by any means, but I will be the first to give him credit when it is due. You can rip him for a lot of moves, but not the Colon deal.

Hangar18
05-26-2003, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Cmon Hangar. You have to give credit to Kenny. Remember how you felt back on that day in January when the trade was made. Giving up Leifer, Osuna, Biddle and some cash for Colon is a steal! Also, you can't use the argument that "no other teams were involved" as an excuse. You have to give Kenny credit for staying on his cell phone day and night getting inside the head of the Expos GM. As Soxfest, Kenny said he was probably talking to the Expos every day for 2 months. The reason that no other teams were in contention for Colon is because KW put the Sox in a good position (the best position) to get him.

KW isn't perfect by any means, but I will be the first to give him credit when it is due. You can rip him for a lot of moves, but not the Colon deal.

Dont get me wrong, Im not necessarily ripping this move as much as IM saying we Got Lucky. I was ecstatic to get Colon, but the more this season wastes away, I can see the writing on the wall that we arent going to Take Advantage of this stroke of luck, and KEEP THE GUY. We did the same foolish thing with David Wells. The guy Flat Out says, he felt bad he didnt give the Fans what they wanted from him, and he was Willing to come back at the MINIMUM (Reinsdorfs ears just perked up). Why the heck didnt we take advantage of that? Just because the MEDIA called him a fat slob and a clubhouse cancer? The same MEDIA that tells us a Certain Basball Park is a "shrine" and the best in the world? (funny how they didnt say this in the 70's) If we dont Keep a David Wells, then we sure as hell better get someone else like him. Kenny gets credit from me, sure. But thats like Me patting a guy on the back for walking across the street and finding a $100 bill.
Or me Giving the SF GIants "credit" for signing Ray Durham. Or me "Praising" the cubs farm system for "drafting" mark 10million prior.

soxtalker
05-26-2003, 12:28 PM
I'm certainly willing to give KW credit for making the Colon deal. It doesn't appear to have been easy -- there were lots of competitors, and it was fairly complex. However, on the whole, I don't think that KW has done very well. He's made some absolutely awful trades, he's got a lineup with several holes (e.g., all right-hand batters, continually poor defense, ...), and he now has a farm system that is probably below average.

Maybe we can hope that KW is learning from his mistakes. Having said all that, I think that the Sox could do much better if KW were to leave. I doubt that JR will force him to do so, and it would surprise me if KW did this on his own -- though he did mention the possibility a couple of weeks back. That they "could" do much better, of course, doesn't mean that they "will" do much better. While JR seems to take great pride in the loyalty he shows his top management, I'm not sure that he's been particulary adept at making great choices in these positions. Of course, I don't know how "adept" other owners have been; they may have just been lucky.

captain54
05-26-2003, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Im so tired of this stupid Cycle this team involves itself in



the most idiotic cycle this franchise is guilty of and the one that continually shows that Reinsdorf and Co. have no business in baseball is the practice of letting qualified people go who have actually done something for you, because of some"personality conflict"....

I'm not saying Larry Himes was the greatest GM in history, but he did put together the groundwork for some pretty good teams in the 90's....for some reason, he was rewarded with being let go in place of Ron Scheuler, who managed to milk Himes's draft picks until the late 90's....

I always found it interesting that during Reinsdorf's search for a manager over the last 15 years or so, he always came back to LaRussa (who was let go by the Sox), and Jim Leyland....both of whom politely have turned Reinsdorf down a number of times....

So now Sox fans have the luxury of checking their morning paper sport sections, and seeing a Dan Evans led (another Reinsdorf reject) LA Dodgers spin off 10 in a row .....

there is no rationality to giving KWilliams any credit at all for anything postive that have come the Sox way as far as deals...for any move that looks half way decent, there are two, maybe three that have blown up in his face....

Finally, don't you love how Reinsdorf is famous for being loyal to his employees, but when it comes to the fans, many of whom have been loyal to the Sox since the 50's, we are told that if you want a winner, you better damn well get to the park and spend, spend, spend, spend....

MarkEdward
05-26-2003, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Well let's see. Reinsdorf ownership hasn't delivered on:

1. A home game post-season victory-- EVER.
2. A victory in a post-season game in 10 years.
3. A post-season series victory-- EVER.
4. Pennant? World Championship? *****!!! Only in your wet dreams...

Why aren't any of these examples the fault of the players? If Reinsdorf is putting money and resources into the team, then he's doing his job.

Yeah, let's blame Paul Konerko, Jon Garland, Jerry Manuel, et al for this 23-year nightmare. Yeah, that's the ticket...

I'm curious: when Joe Crede strikes out or Paul Konerko commits an error, do you say "damn that JR!"?

PaleHoseGeorge
05-26-2003, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Why aren't any of these examples the fault of the players? If Reinsdorf is putting money and resources into the team, then he's doing his job.



I'm curious: when Joe Crede strikes out or Paul Konerko commits an error, do you say "damn that JR!"?

You're right. Success is just around the corner. JR needs to roll the dice just one more time. Surely it won't come up snake eyes again.

He's unlucky--23 years straight.

Go learn some history.

TornLabrum
05-26-2003, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
You're right. Success is just around the corner. JR needs to roll the dice just one more time. Surely it won't come up snake eyes again.

He's unlucky--23 years straight.

Go learn some history.

And while you're at it, look up this year's payroll and tell me if The Chairman wasn't trying to win on the cheap.

MarkEdward
05-26-2003, 11:52 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
And while you're at it, look up this year's payroll and tell me if The Chairman wasn't trying to win on the cheap.

Yeah, we didn't acquire Bartolo Colon in the offseason or anything like that...

MarkEdward
05-26-2003, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
You're right. Success is just around the corner. JR needs to roll the dice just one more time. Surely it won't come up snake eyes again.

He's unlucky--23 years straight.

Go learn some history.

Did we or did we not have high payroll teams through most of the 90s?

Hangar18
05-27-2003, 12:30 PM
THIS OWNERSHIP SURELY HASNT DELIVERED ON ITS PROMISE.
Sure there were a couple times we had very good teams, teams that were only a couple players short of Accomplishing Some Very Special Things, Including GETTING TO A WORLD SERIES. but instead, they tried to CHEAP theyre way in, tried to the old Get-In-Thru-The-Backdoor method (which clearly doesnt work)

Brian26
05-27-2003, 12:49 PM
There are some incredibly dumb arguments in this thread on the part of some people I really respect.

According to PHG, money buys championships. I could give you numerous examples on how that isn't correct. The Yankees got lucky in the late 90's with their huge payroll. Where were the World Titles for them between 1979 and 1994? Steinbrenner spent all kinds of money. Money doesn't necessarily guarantee championships. The late 90's team had a good nucleus of young guys from the Yankees organization mixed with some free agent acquired talent.

I like the loyalty Reinsdorf has shown the city over the course of the past 23 years. Do we want a guy like the old Marlins owner (Wayne Heinzinga (sp)?) to come in here and buy a world title, and then completely dismantle and gut the organization from top to bottom so it is in shambles for the next 20 years. Can anyone who is a Marlins fan take joy in that '97 Championship? I'd take Reinsdorf in a heartbeat.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-27-2003, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
....According to PHG, money buys championships. I could give you numerous examples on how that isn't correct. The Yankees got lucky in the late 90's with their huge payroll. Where were the World Titles for them between 1979 and 1994? Steinbrenner spent all kinds of money. Money doesn't necessarily guarantee championships. The late 90's team had a good nucleus of young guys from the Yankees organization mixed with some free agent acquired talent....

I never said ANYTHING of the sort, Brian. The small-market contraction candidates from Minnesota have not only won playoff games and pennants--but world championships, too-- playing in a ballpark universally recognized as the worst in the majors for players and fans alike. They've done it--and plenty of other have-not franchises, too--in the 23 years Reinsdorf apparently earns an excuse from you.

Sorry. I ain't buying that load of crap. We're on the verge of at least the third dump and rebuild project of JR's ownership. It's time for the owner to make for the exit, too.

:selljerry

DustyIsOverated1
05-27-2003, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
...will Jerry Reinsdorf FINALLY give up and sell this ballclub?

It's NEVER going to happen, Jerry. You failed. 23 seasons after promising a "first class organization", you're further from your goal than the day you started.

Leave the keys on your desk. We'll forward your last check. Just go, and be quick about it.

:selljerry


I'm sorry, but this statement is purely idiotic. If you can tell me 5 mistakes that haved just downright DOOMED the sox because of JR's presence.....I'll buy you a Coke.

Just because this team is losing doesn't mean it's the owners fault. Thats the biggest cop out I've ever heard. JR should sell the team to who????? Your forget that NOT A SINGLE PERSON WITH FIVE BRAIN CELLS WOULD BUY THIS HORRIBLE, UNDERACHIEVING, WORTHLESS TEAM!

I love this team very much, and it really pisses me off to see them jerk me around once again this year......but for god sakes....leave the owner out of it. He has given Jerry manuel good pitching, and good hitting......yet we still have players out there who can't ****ing catch the ball????????

It's the other Jerry Sox Fans, he must leave right now!!!!! :angry:

If this team had Lou Pinella coaching, or LaRussa---we would not be so damn angry right now, BOTTOM LINE!

Stop blaming Reinsdorf and the investors....Thats just not intelligent

Hangar18
05-27-2003, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by DustyIsOverated1
I'm sorry, but this statement is purely idiotic. If you can tell me 5 mistakes that haved just downright DOOMED the sox because of JR's presence.....I'll buy you a Coke.


It's the other Jerry Sox Fans, he must leave right now!!!!! :angry:

If this team had Lou Pinella coaching, or LaRussa---we would not be so damn angry right now, BOTTOM LINE!

Stop blaming Reinsdorf and the investors....Thats just not intelligent

1. Jerry Reinsdorfs ill advised Foray in Sports Stadium Design
2. Jerry Reinsdorfs ill advised Foray into Urban Planning
3. Jerrys continually setting a "budget" (though they always claim to have a high budget
4. Jerrys Alienation of the Sox Fan Base
5. Jerrys RingLeadership in the 1994 Strike which cost the WHITE SOX A WORLD SERIES / CHAMPIONSHIP

Hangar18
05-27-2003, 02:15 PM
I'll be at the Game Tuesday VS Giants. I'll take a Beer Instead...

captain54
05-27-2003, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by DustyIsOverated1
NOT A SINGLE PERSON WITH FIVE BRAIN CELLS WOULD BUY THIS HORRIBLE, UNDERACHIEVING, WORTHLESS TEAM!

It's the other Jerry Sox Fans, he must leave right now!!!!! :angry:

If this team had Lou Pinella coaching, or LaRussa---we would not be so damn angry right now, BOTTOM LINE!

Stop blaming Reinsdorf and the investors....Thats just not intelligent

We had LaRussa as a manager, but Hawk Harrelson (Reinsdorf's choice of GM in 1985) fired him.....

Who is responsible for hiring the current general manager??? who is responsible for approving a contract extension for the current manager you claim should be removed?? C'mon.....

When 90% of the lineup underachieves, there is something seriously wrong with the entire makeup of the team, the organization, from the top on down....

the high expectations for 2003 were mostly media hype, bottom line....there were a ton of question marks going into the season, none of which were really addressed by the organization...so yes, I blame Reinsdorf 1000%...

Foulke You
05-27-2003, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Did we or did we not have high payroll teams through most of the 90s?

You are correct Mark that we did have high payroll teams in the early and mid '90s. The reason we had this high payroll is because we were averaging about 35,000 fans a game, White Sox merchandise (hats, shirts) were selling like hot cakes because of the new logo, Bo Jackson and Frank Thomas were high profile and nationally recognized players, the diamond suites were full, and our ballpark was highly regarded.

Now, flash forward to the late '90s and the early '00s and you'll see that our attendance now averages around 19,000 a game, our ballpark is lowly regarded, merchandise sales are down as is local and national interest in the team, so the Reinsdorf regime payroll has been adjusted accordingly.

Reinsdorf doesn't believe in the philosophy of spend money to make money. If he makes money, THEN he spends it. This sort of short sighted thinking is one of the main reasons why the team is in the boat that it is in now. So you'll forgive me if I don't give kudos to JR for spending in the '90s. Any owner can spend when tons of people are streaming in to your tax payer built diamond suite filled baseball stadium. Good ownership would recognize that the AL Central was ripe for the taking and the team needed a huge shot in the arm. In addition to Colon being brought in, other high profile free agents should have been targeted. Colon shouldn't be used as an example as JR's "will to spend". We brought in Colon and Koch and LOWERED our payroll from '02. We didn't sign him as a free agent. I also assure you Bartolo will be long gone when he does become a free agent because JR will cry poor again. Also, don't use the "hey! we signed Albert Belle" as evidence that JR likes to spend money. He did it more as a shot at his fellow owners after the strike and quickly rushed to dump Albert and his huge salary on Baltimore as soon as he saw the red ink from the low attendance. I'm with PHG and Dan H on this one completely. I never thought I'd see the day where Sox fans were rushing to Reinsdorf's defense!! :?:

Dadawg_77
05-27-2003, 04:07 PM
Look it isn't about spending money or not spending money. You can't win by spending money because you can't outspend New York. So given that, you need to find way to win. White Sox are not the benchmark here, so who is? Oakland, anyone? They have a smaller payroll then the Sox, they are a team that loses its FA every year, and yet only the Braves have won more games over the past four years. Hmmmm...... What the Sox organization has failed to do is spend wisely. Look at this, the ideas is Doug Papas's:
The least a team can spend to field a team last year was about 7 million in pay roll. The least amount of games a team could expect to win is 54, or a third of the teams games. So you figure out how much more then the min did a team spend for a victories over 54.

The worst team was the Tigers with 55 wins so they spent over 47 million for one marginal win. MLB avg was 5.4 but take the Tigers, TB (27 million per Marg Win) and the Brewers (21 million per mar win) and the avg becomes 2.2 million dollars per mar win.
The Sox spent 1.7 per mar win while the Twins spend 857K and Oakland spent 713K per win. The Champs spent 1.2, the Giants spent 1.7, Yankees spent 2.2 million the Braves 1.8 million, Cards 1.6, Zona 2.1. While the Sox are not unwisest team out there, they are slightly above average, which can be good enough to get in the playoffs.

Hangar18
05-27-2003, 04:12 PM
I think I remember this Economic Theory from college.......correct me if Im wroing. Someone feel free to pass this on to Jerry Reinsdorf and him minions. KEYNESIAN ECONOMICS (or, how to spend money to make money)

PaleHoseGeorge
05-27-2003, 06:36 PM
Let's not forget that every last one of the teams dawg mentioned in his analysis (save 6 y.o. Tampa Bay) have won at least one pennant--if not several championships--in the time since Jerry Reinsdorf took control of the Chicago White Sox. The relevant universe isn't just the results of the 2002 season, but every season going back to 1981 when (presumably) the unimpeachable "first class organization" was first acknowledged as the new owner's goal.

I'm more willing than anybody to absolve ALL responsible parties for the abortion that has become the 2003 White Sox season. What I will not excuse--nor should any Sox Fan with any sense of history--what a joke of an organization the White Sox have become over the past 23 years. I don't blame Gary Knotts, Bobby Kielty, Joe Mays, Jose Guillen, Pat Borders, Tito Landrum--or any of the other countless major league mediocrities who have taken this ballclub to school in the past--for the unmitigated disaster that Jerry Reinsdorf presides over today.

I blame Jerry Reinsdorf. Period.

:selljerry

MarkEdward
05-27-2003, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Look it isn't about spending money or not spending money. You can't win by spending money because you can't outspend New York. So given that, you need to find way to win. White Sox are not the benchmark here, so who is? Oakland, anyone?

For what it's worth, I'm not arguing that we need to spend huge amounts of money in order to win. Others have argued that JR doesn't spend money. I have replied that the Sox did (and continue to) spend money. Now, is throwing money every which way the key to a successful franchise? Heck no. The A's and Twins have great teams with small payrolls. This is why I continue to call for the hiring of Paul Depodesta.

It seems like some want an owner who will throw money at any free agent like Tom Hicks or Peter Angelos. We don't need that. We can win with a frugal owner. We just need the right management put in place (cue Depodesta).

Irishlawyer
05-27-2003, 06:50 PM
Jerry claims he would trade all his basketball championships for one baseball title. What a joke. He is in this for the money. Plain and simple. We have all wasted two decades on this ballclub with JR at the helm. We would have been better off if he would have taken the team to St. Pete. Then we could devote all our time to hating the Cubs.

Daver
05-27-2003, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by Irishlawyer
Jerry claims he would trade all his basketball championships for one baseball title. What a joke. He is in this for the money. Plain and simple. We have all wasted two decades on this ballclub with JR at the helm. We would have been better off if he would have taken the team to St. Pete. Then we could devote all our time to hating the Cubs.

Hey welcome aboard! :redneck

Foulke You
05-27-2003, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
For what it's worth, I'm not arguing that we need to spend huge amounts of money in order to win. Others have argued that JR doesn't spend money. I have replied that the Sox did (and continue to) spend money. Now, is throwing money every which way the key to a successful franchise? Heck no. The A's and Twins have great teams with small payrolls. This is why I continue to call for the hiring of Paul Depodesta.

It seems like some want an owner who will throw money at any free agent like Tom Hicks or Peter Angelos. We don't need that. We can win with a frugal owner. We just need the right management put in place (cue Depodesta).

You can win to an extent with a smaller payroll but look at the teams that are consistently there every year. Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, Braves, Mariners, Cardinals. Those are all teams in large markets with payrolls much larger than us. I think the Twins and A's are the exception rather than the rule. It would be much easier to buy better players than try to duplicate the success of small market teams by hoping and praying our young talent delivers.

Reinsdorf spends like he is in Milwaukee or Mineapolis. This is CHICAGO!! JR even lets the Cubs outspend us every year by a pretty good margin. The Mets ownership doesn't sit on its hands in the offseason and let the Yankees steal the back page of the NY Post and they are the second team in town. They went out and got a "win now" player in Tom Glavine and a respected manager in Art Howe. I don't want a Hicks or Angelos throwing insane money around but you have to admit that increasing the payroll would offer a young GM like Kenny Williams some leeway to improve the team and not have to put all of his hopes in one token deal (see David Wells, Todd Richie, Bartolo Colon) I'm not asking for JR to spend Yankee money but at least spend more than the teams in your division! Have a payroll respectable for a Chicago market! Our payroll is in the mid 50,000,000 range (less than the '02 payroll by the way) when it should be in the 75-80,000,000 range. Think of who Kenny Williams could have signed with $30,000,000 more in the payroll?

They never would have had to let Durham go, Kenny Lofton could still be our leadoff man and center fielder, Glavine was out there, Maddux was out there, ditto Millwood. A real field general like Lou Pinella or Jim Leyland could have been brought in to lead the clubhouse. Think of what kind of statement that makes to the rest of the division, your fans, and your city. Instead, we'll be treated to another round of "the kids can play" as our good players will go and win with other teams. I'm just tired of it and frustrated as a fan. :(: I want to see an organization spend money, create some excitement, and make a statement that you are dedicated to winning in the city of Chicago. Hey, Mark Cuban, wanna buy a baseball team in Chicago?

MisterB
05-27-2003, 08:34 PM
Here's some numbers for those who want them.
From USA Today (http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/default.aspx)
All amounts in millions of dollars.

Year - Sox Salary - ML Rank - Highest Salary
90 - 9.5 - 26 (of 26) - ROYALS 23.9
91 - 16.8 - 23 - ATHLETICS 33.6
92 - 28.4 - 17 - METS 44.4
93 - 34.6 - 13 (of 28) - BLUE JAYS 45.7
94 - 38.4 - 8 - YANKEES 44.8
95 - 39.6 - 5 - BLUE JAYS 49.8
96 - 41.9 - 5 - YANKEES 52.2
97 - 54.4 - 3 - YANKEES 59.1
98 - 36.8 - 18 (of 30) - ORIOLES 70.4
99 - 24.6 - 24 - YANKEES 88.1
00 - 31.2 - 26 - YANKEES 92.9
01 - 65.6 - 14 - YANKEES 112.3
02 - 57.1 - 18 - YANKEES 125.9
03 - 51.0 - 22 - YANKEES 152.7

Lip Man 1
05-27-2003, 09:44 PM
The Sox should have a payroll in the area of 75 million which would be a better representation of the 3rd largest city in the U.S.

Also the fact is a larger payroll gives you room to manuver when a player or players don't pan out or get hurt.

Where's the margin for error on a payroll SMALLER then the Twins?

This is why I agree with Hal's statement about Uncle Jerry trying to win "on the cheap..."

Yes he allowed the Sox to get Colon but at what price? The club STILL had holes in the rotation, at catcher, center field and at 2nd base. Where were those solutions?

It's always been this way with this organization. Even the fine Sox teams of 1993 and 2000 had issues which were never addressed. Why? Because payroll considerations prevented then from getting additional or final pieces needed to take the step to the series.

With this organization it's always "we hope to win..", not 'we're GOING to win."

Just my opinion.

Lip

captain54
05-28-2003, 01:33 AM
Originally posted by Foulke You
Instead, we'll be treated to another round of "the kids can play" as our good players will go and win with other teams. I'm just tired of it and frustrated as a fan. :(:

Reinsdorf's Master Plan with "the Kids Can Play" was to be able to churn out, year after year, hot prospects who would be able to create enough excitement to hopefully be competitve, and bring a respectable amount of fans in the stands...of course it wouldnt matter cause most would be making major league minimum or near it....and then be gone when they priced themselves out of the market....

Kenny Williams was supposed to be the ringleader of this plan, and the gatekeeper between triple a or double a and the parent club....he was never hired to be able to pick the pockets of other more experienced GM's around the league....

Reinsdorf was painted in a corner with the surprise success of the Sox in early 2000....he was put on the spot by the fans and the media to bring the club to the next level....this was not the way the plan was supposed to go....

the reason this whole thing is falling apart is because there are not enough qualified people in the Sox organization to consistently evaluate and develop young talent year after year....

nevertheless, .I forsee this organization returning to the original "kids can play" campaign,....where fans will be expected pay major league ticket prices for minor league talent.....

MarkEdward
05-28-2003, 01:34 AM
Originally posted by Foulke You
You can win to an extent with a smaller payroll but look at the teams that are consistently there every year. Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, Braves, Mariners, Cardinals. Those are all teams in large markets with payrolls much larger than us.

Since when have Seattle, Atlanta, and St. Louis been considered large markets?

I think the Twins and A's are the exception rather than the rule.

The A's have been strong since 1999. The Twins have been strong since 2001. The Angels, a middle of the road payroll team, won the World Series last year. These teams aren't aberrations.

Reinsdorf spends like he is in Milwaukee or Mineapolis. This is CHICAGO!! JR even lets the Cubs outspend us every year by a pretty good margin. The Mets ownership doesn't sit on its hands in the offseason and let the Yankees steal the back page of the NY Post and they are the second team in town. They went out and got a "win now" player in Tom Glavine and a respected manager in Art Howe.

And look at how well the Mets are doing...

I don't want a Hicks or Angelos throwing insane money around but you have to admit that increasing the payroll would offer a young GM like Kenny Williams some leeway to improve the team and not have to put all of his hopes in one token deal (see David Wells, Todd Richie, Bartolo Colon)

Or, if Williams is given a higher payroll, he'll go out and continue to make stupid deals.

I'm not asking for JR to spend Yankee money but at least spend more than the teams in your division! Have a payroll respectable for a Chicago market! Our payroll is in the mid 50,000,000 range (less than the '02 payroll by the way) when it should be in the 75-80,000,000 range. Think of who Kenny Williams could have signed with $30,000,000 more in the payroll?

Or, instead of signing Paul Konerko to a huge contract, he could use that money to sign other useful players. He can make cheap moves like getting Brad Wilkerson or Ramon Castro. He can refrain from making stupid trades, like dumping Ray Durham for a 26 year old AAA pitcher.

They never would have had to let Durham go, Kenny Lofton could still be our leadoff man and center fielder,

Lofton could have been acquired this past off season on the cheap, but Williams believed that Aaron Rowand could handle CF.

Glavine was out there, Maddux was out there, ditto Millwood. A real field general like Lou Pinella or Jim Leyland could have been brought in to lead the clubhouse.

Glavine was signed for way too much money for way too many years. I give him a year before the bottom falls out. Maddux wasn't really on the market, was he? As for Millwood, there was a whole story behind that trade that we'll never really know about.

As for Lou Pinella, well, he sure is working his magic down in Tampa.

I want to see an organization spend money, create some excitement, and make a statement that you are dedicated to winning in the city of Chicago.

I just want to see the Sox win, money or no money. I believe that if we follow the A's philosophy, then we can start winning a lot more games than we're winning now (for a lot less money too).

Foulke You
05-28-2003, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Since when have Seattle, Atlanta, and St. Louis been considered large markets?



And look at how well the Mets are doing...



Or, if Williams is given a higher payroll, he'll go out and continue to make stupid deals.



Or, instead of signing Paul Konerko to a huge contract, he could use that money to sign other useful players. He can make cheap moves like getting Brad Wilkerson or Ramon Castro. He can refrain from making stupid trades, like dumping Ray Durham for a 26 year old AAA pitcher.



Lofton could have been acquired this past off season on the cheap, but Williams believed that Aaron Rowand could handle CF.



Glavine was signed for way too much money for way too many years. I give him a year before the bottom falls out. Maddux wasn't really on the market, was he? As for Millwood, there was a whole story behind that trade that we'll never really know about.

As for Lou Pinella, well, he sure is working his magic down in Tampa.



I just want to see the Sox win, money or no money. I believe that if we follow the A's philosophy, then we can start winning a lot more games than we're winning now (for a lot less money too).


On the Mets:

The bottom line is the Mets want to win and they don't sit around and wait for things to get better. They don't rebuild every 5 years. They are always aggresive on the free agent market. The Mets GM made some bone headed trades that make KW look smart. That isn't the Mets ownership fault that their GM couldn't make a winner out of a $100 million payroll. Given the Mets payroll, I don't think KW would have gotten Mo Vaughn, Jeremy Burnitz, and Jeff D'amico with all of that money. Even he isn't that dumb. In fact, I tend to think with $100 million, KW could look every bit the "genius" Brian Cashman of the Yankees is.

On Glavine:

People said the same thing about Clemens being washed up. I think the Yankees are getting the last laugh out of that one. Kenny Rogers also could have been had to shore up the rotation as Hangar pointed out in another thread. But alas, we are fiscally responsible.

On Lofton:

Lofton is currently making about $1,000,000 base salary + $475,000 in performance incentives with the Pirates. Aaron Rowand is making $325,000 with no incentives. Do the math and tell me now why KW "thought" Rowand was ready for Center Field?

On Wilkerson, Castro, and Konerko:

Brad Wilkerson and Ramon Castro. Castro, a career .230 hitter with an arm not as strong as Miguel Olivo's and Wilkerson, a career .260 hitter albeit with impressive stats this year. Sorry, but I don't think these are the pieces that will take us to the promised land. As far as Konerko's salary goes...I suppose you knew that Konerko was going to fall apart this year after having an all star year last year and that is how you can justify saying we shouldn't have re-signed him? If Paulie was having his usual .300 avg. + huge power numbers would you be upset that we resigned him. Don't do the 20/20 hindsight routine.

On Pinella:

Lou Pinella already has the D-Rays playing better baseball than they were last year with the same mopes they had a year ago. The D-Rays are BAD but Pinella has those players ready to run through a wall for him and they are at least competitive this year. Parque is in their starting rotation for crissakes!! You can't compare Pinella's tenure with the M's and compare it to the D-Rays and say "See! I told you he wasn't a good manager!" That's apples and oranges. Bottom line, the D-Rays will be a better team with Lou at the helm. If you think Pinella could have no influence on our Sox than you're nuts. There is no corpse ball played under a Pinella guided team.

On the A's "winning philosophy":

The A's "philosophy" consisted of finding Hudson, Zito, and Mulder and plugging them into the rotation and telling them to pitch 3 of every 5 games. The A's are fighting it out with the Rangers for 4th without those three players. It isn't rocket science. They have some good scouts who picked up on 3 great arms and they lucked out and all 3 turned out to be quality major leaguers. It isn't a magic formula, it's called getting good pitching which can be done on the free agent market with an organization that is willing to spend a little to complement your young pitchers. Sox fans shouldn't have to settle for budgetary constraints and fiscal responsiblilty. We shouldn't have to endure more rebuilding and hope we stumble upon pitching gems like the A's did. We need to win now. We haven't won a championship since the Woodrow Wilson administration! Time to open the coffers and complement young talent with proven MLB big time talent. I'm not saying you are completely wrong, I just think as an organization this team could turn itself around quicker with a payroll worthy of Chicago's market.

joecrede
05-28-2003, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
As far as Konerko's salary goes...I suppose you knew that Konerko was going to fall apart this year after having an all star year last year and that is how you can justify saying we shouldn't have re-signed him? If Paulie was having his usual .300 avg. + huge power numbers would you be upset that we resigned him. Don't do the 20/20 hindsight routine.

Wait a second, the Sox spent a lot of money on Konerko therefore he must be good, right? If the Sox had 25 Konerko's we'd have a much bigger payroll and be a helluva lot closer to first place using your logic of payroll=victories.

Foulke You
05-28-2003, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Wait a second, the Sox spent a lot of money on Konerko therefore he must be good, right? If the Sox had 25 Konerko's we'd have a much bigger payroll and be a helluva lot closer to first place using your logic of payroll=victories.

When did I say that ONLY payroll equals victories? Where did I say that we spent a lot on Konerko therfore he must be good? When we spent a lot on him, he was playing great. I'm not exactly sure what point you are trying to make here. Try teading what I wrote a little closer instead of skimming.

MarkEdward
05-28-2003, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
On the Mets:
The bottom line is the Mets want to win and they don't sit around and wait for things to get better. They don't rebuild every 5 years.

You're right. They don't rebuild. They consistently lose with overpriced veterans.

They are always aggresive on the free agent market.

And that's led to some great signings, such as Mo Vaughn, Steve Trachsal, and Jeromy Burnitz.

Given the Mets payroll, I don't think KW would have gotten Mo Vaughn, Jeremy Burnitz, and Jeff D'amico with all of that money. Even he isn't that dumb. In fact, I tend to think with $100 million, KW could look every bit the "genius" Brian Cashman of the Yankees is.

I disagree. Kenny Williams, if given more money to spend, has a propensity for making stupid trades. Royce Clayton, David Wells, and Todd Ritchie all prove this.

Also, you underestimate Brian Cashman. The man believes in the importance of OBP and a deep farm system. The Yankees don't just win because of money.

On Glavine:
People said the same thing about Clemens being washed up. I think the Yankees are getting the last laugh out of that one. Kenny Rogers also could have been had to shore up the rotation as Hangar pointed out in another thread. But alas, we are fiscally responsible.

Clemens has maintained a high K rate throughout these past few years. Glavine's K rate is beginning to wain. That's not a good sign. Clemens, from age 36 to 40, had two average years to go along with two above average years. Glavine will be very lucky to have those kinds of years.

Signing Kenny Rogers would've been frivolous. We already have the fourth best rotation in the AL. Starting pitching is not our problem.

On Lofton:
Lofton is currently making about $1,000,000 base salary + $475,000 in performance incentives with the Pirates. Aaron Rowand is making $325,000 with no incentives. Do the math and tell me now why KW "thought" Rowand was ready for Center Field?

There was no indication that Rowand/Harris would be this bad. If Williams thought there would be a problem in center, than he might have signed Lofton.

You're not really saying that we didn't sign Lofton because of financial constraints, right? I just can't buy that.


On Wilkerson, Castro, and Konerko:
Brad Wilkerson and Ramon Castro. Castro, a career .230 hitter with an arm not as strong as Miguel Olivo's and Wilkerson, a career .260 hitter albeit with impressive stats this year. Sorry, but I don't think these are the pieces that will take us to the promised land.

Ramon Castro has put up terrific numbers in the minor leagues. Through 22 at bats in the majors this year, he has an OPS of .855. He's no Piazza, but he's a much better option than Sandy Alomar.

Wilkerson also put up great minor league numbers, and has a .903 OPS so far this year. He's cheaper, younger, and better than Lofton.

As far as Konerko's salary goes...I suppose you knew that Konerko was going to fall apart this year after having an all star year last year and that is how you can justify saying we shouldn't have re-signed him? If Paulie was having his usual .300 avg. + huge power numbers would you be upset that we resigned him. Don't do the 20/20 hindsight routine.

I wouldn't have shed a tear if we didn't re-sign Paul Konerko. He was an average first baseman last year. And unlike a player like J.T. Snow, he doesn't have the glove to go along with his crappy numbers. It's not about hindsight; it's about evaluating a player's past, and predicting what he'll do in the future. Konerko, judging by his past, didn't deserve that six million/year contract.

Instead of overpaying for Konerko, we could've pursued Kevin Millar, signed him for one-third of Konerko's salary, and use the rest of that money to upgrade other parts of our ball club.

On Pinella:
Lou Pinella already has the D-Rays playing better baseball than they were last year with the same mopes they had a year ago. The D-Rays are BAD but Pinella has those players ready to run through a wall for him and they are at least competitive this year. Parque is in their starting rotation for crissakes!! You can't compare Pinella's tenure with the M's and compare it to the D-Rays and say "See! I told you he wasn't a good manager!" That's apples and oranges. Bottom line, the D-Rays will be a better team with Lou at the helm. If you think Pinella could have no influence on our Sox than you're nuts. There is no corpse ball played under a Pinella guided team.

The only thing Pinella is good for is throwing tantrums. The continued success of Mariners shows that Lou had little to do with the Mariners' past winning seasons. The Rays are better because they have Carl Crawford, Rocco Baldelli, Aubrey Huff, and Ben Grieve playing instead of Greg Vaughn, Brent Abernathy, and Jason Tyner.

Look at Art Howe. He had many winning seasons with the A's. By your standards, the Mets should be dominating.

On the A's "winning philosophy":
The A's "philosophy" consisted of finding Hudson, Zito, and Mulder and plugging them into the rotation and telling them to pitch 3 of every 5 games. The A's are fighting it out with the Rangers for 4th without those three players.

Ramon Hernandez, Erubial Durazo, Miguel Tejada, Eric Chavez, Scott Hatteberg, Mark Ellis, and a dominating bullpen all say hi.

It isn't rocket science. They have some good scouts who picked up on 3 great arms and they lucked out and all 3 turned out to be quality major leaguers.

Read "Moneyball." Beane's scouts were ardently against drafting Barry Zito. And Zito, Mulder, and Hudson didn't just fall into the A's lap. They were drafted after other teams had given up on them because they were too small or too old or didn't have enough heat. Billy Beane and his staff fought past all these common misconceptions. They knew what they were doing when they drafted Zito, Mulder, and Hudson; there was little luck involved.

It isn't a magic formula, it's called getting good pitching which can be done on the free agent market with an organization that is willing to spend a little to complement your young pitchers.

I'd take Zito, Hudson, or Mulder over any free agent pitcher that was on the market this past year.

I'm not saying you are completely wrong, I just think as an organization this team could turn itself around quicker with a payroll worthy of Chicago's market.

And I think we'd benefit from using a sabermetric philosophy instead of wildly spending money. It seems to be working for the Red Sox, A's, Angels, Twins, and Expos.

Dadawg_77
05-28-2003, 07:31 PM
Not sure how many people here follow the markets but talent pool in baseball is one great example of totally inefficient market place. People are over paying for things that have marginal effect on a teams ability to win games over the long haul. Billy Beane and co hort realize this and saw the opportunity they had. So they go after the guys who have skills that other major league team under value like the ability to judge strikes and balls. The A's don't care how fast you are, don't care about your body build, don't care how fast you can throw. What they look for is college players who know a strike or ball when they see one and college pitchers who get people out. Your traditional scouts see tools, and develop a mental pitcher of what a guy can become not what they are. Beane is right more then the traditional guys.

The Oakland A's are practicing baseball arbitrage to perfection. In most markets you never see this type of situation other then neophyte systems in Third world countries and Eastern Europe back in the 90s'. When the rest of baseball catches up to them, they will fall into the pack and use of sabermetrics will become a less powerful tool relative to the rest of baseball. Until that day the A's will be among the leaders in baseball standings.

Oh don't let the record fool you the A's usually have bad first months but over the past three years tear it up in the second half. Their are a few reasons for this but it has happen in the past and I would bet it will happen again this year.

What this means for the Sox is that they have to spend money or find another market inefficiency since the window on OBP will probably have closed before the Sox can get in. So the Sox have two choice a complete overhaul of management in order to jump on the OBP bandwagon (A good idea), spend tons of money to compete (a not so good idea) or three do one but also be on the look out for the next market inefficiency (probably the best course of action). It it funny that running a baseball team will become very similar to running a stock portfolio.

Foulke You
05-28-2003, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
You're right. They don't rebuild. They consistently lose with overpriced veterans.



And that's led to some great signings, such as Mo Vaughn, Steve Trachsal, and Jeromy Burnitz.



I disagree. Kenny Williams, if given more money to spend, has a propensity for making stupid trades. Royce Clayton, David Wells, and Todd Ritchie all prove this.

Also, you underestimate Brian Cashman. The man believes in the importance of OBP and a deep farm system. The Yankees don't just win because of money.



Clemens has maintained a high K rate throughout these past few years. Glavine's K rate is beginning to wain. That's not a good sign. Clemens, from age 36 to 40, had two average years to go along with two above average years. Glavine will be very lucky to have those kinds of years.

Signing Kenny Rogers would've been frivolous. We already have the fourth best rotation in the AL. Starting pitching is not our problem.



There was no indication that Rowand/Harris would be this bad. If Williams thought there would be a problem in center, than he might have signed Lofton.

You're not really saying that we didn't sign Lofton because of financial constraints, right? I just can't buy that.




Ramon Castro has put up terrific numbers in the minor leagues. Through 22 at bats in the majors this year, he has an OPS of .855. He's no Piazza, but he's a much better option than Sandy Alomar.

Wilkerson also put up great minor league numbers, and has a .903 OPS so far this year. He's cheaper, younger, and better than Lofton.



I wouldn't have shed a tear if we didn't re-sign Paul Konerko. He was an average first baseman last year. And unlike a player like J.T. Snow, he doesn't have the glove to go along with his crappy numbers. It's not about hindsight; it's about evaluating a player's past, and predicting what he'll do in the future. Konerko, judging by his past, didn't deserve that six million/year contract.

Instead of overpaying for Konerko, we could've pursued Kevin Millar, signed him for one-third of Konerko's salary, and use the rest of that money to upgrade other parts of our ball club.



The only thing Pinella is good for is throwing tantrums. The continued success of Mariners shows that Lou had little to do with the Mariners' past winning seasons. The Rays are better because they have Carl Crawford, Rocco Baldelli, Aubrey Huff, and Ben Grieve playing instead of Greg Vaughn, Brent Abernathy, and Jason Tyner.

Look at Art Howe. He had many winning seasons with the A's. By your standards, the Mets should be dominating.



Ramon Hernandez, Erubial Durazo, Miguel Tejada, Eric Chavez, Scott Hatteberg, Mark Ellis, and a dominating bullpen all say hi.



Read "Moneyball." Beane's scouts were ardently against drafting Barry Zito. And Zito, Mulder, and Hudson didn't just fall into the A's lap. They were drafted after other teams had given up on them because they were too small or too old or didn't have enough heat. Billy Beane and his staff fought past all these common misconceptions. They knew what they were doing when they drafted Zito, Mulder, and Hudson; there was little luck involved.



I'd take Zito, Hudson, or Mulder over any free agent pitcher that was on the market this past year.



And I think we'd benefit from using a sabermetric philosophy instead of wildly spending money. It seems to be working for the Red Sox, A's, Angels, Twins, and Expos.

The Mets:

I'll tell you what the Mets got being aggressive on the free agent market. An NL Pennant in 2000 and an NLCS appearance in '99. You make it sound like the Mets have never won anything. I don't know about you but I don't know what a World Series is like. I think my Grand Pappy told me about the Sox playing in a World Series back in '59.

Lofton:

You're damn right I think that was all about the money. KW saved himself about $700,000 in base salary and a possible $1.3 million in incentives. If KW truly believed we were all set at CF, why did he pursue Lofton last year? Why didn't he hand it over to Rowand back in '02? No...he cheaped out because of budgetary reasons.

Pinella:

I guess everything I've read and heard about him is wrong? He is one of the most respected managers in the game. How does he get to that point by only throwing tantrums? Terry Bevington was only good at throwing tantrums and you don't see teams lining up for his services. Pinella is good at tantrums AND is a good manager. Managers are only part of the equation and ultimately the players make the team. but a grand army without a good general to lead them is a worthless army.

Konerko:

1999 .294 avg .511 slg% 24HR 81RBI
2000 .298 avg .481 slg% 21HR 97RBI
2001 .282 avg .507 slg% 32HR 99RBI
2002 .304 avg .498 slg% 27HR 107RBI

I don't know about you but I'd feel pretty secure paying Konerko $6 million to get the above production. Konerko's glove isn't J.D. Drew by any means but Paulie is an average fielder. So by your logic, Kenny Williams should have looked at the above numbers and say to himself that Paulie wasn't worth it for that kind of "average" power production? Nobody could've have known Paulie's offense would decline in '03 and hopefully it is just a big slump and he'll come out of it.

On Cashman:

Give Cashman our $50,000,000 and if he assembles an annual pennant contender then I'll agree. But as long as has the unlimited means to pursue guys like Clemens, Weaver, Matsui, Mussina, and Giambi, I won't heap lots of praise on him. Let's face it, their home grown players like Jeter and Williams makes them competitive but it is the aforementioned players that put them over the top. A lot of GMs can assemble an annual contender with $150,000,000.

On Beane and "Moneyball":

I've never read the book but I have read some comments in the newspapers that say that Beane is egotistical and took some of the credit for others work (scouts) which unfortunately happens quite frequently in the corporate world. I can't officially comment because I haven't read the book. If he is responsible than good for him. Do I think the Sox can duplicate that under the current ownership's philosophies? No.

I'd also like to point out that I'm not advocating crazy Yankees or Rangers like spending. All I want is for JR to put our payroll up there in the top 10 ($75,000,000-$80,000,000 range) and give our GM (Schueler, KW, or whoever it may be) some reasonable room to work with in a large market like Chi-town so that one trade doesn't make or break the team.

MarkEdward
05-29-2003, 02:16 AM
Originally posted by Foulke You
The Mets:
I'll tell you what the Mets got being aggressive on the free agent market. An NL Pennant in 2000 and an NLCS appearance in '99. You make it sound like the Mets have never won anything. I don't know about you but I don't know what a World Series is like. I think my Grand Pappy told me about the Sox playing in a World Series back in '59.

The '99 Mets are a great example of how to run a high payroll team. Olerud, Ventura, Piazza, Cedeno, Henderson, and Benitez were all great acquisitions.

I'd say the 2000 Mets' run was based on a ton of luck. While their record was 94-68, their pythagorean record was 88-74. Zeile, Agbayani, Payton, Hampton, and Rusch all had career years.

The Mets continue to sign high priced veterans, and look where they are now. Albatross contracts and a horrid farm system. They won't see another 90 win team for five or six years.

Lofton:
You're damn right I think that was all about the money. KW saved himself about $700,000 in base salary and a possible $1.3 million in incentives. If KW truly believed we were all set at CF, why did he pursue Lofton last year? Why didn't he hand it over to Rowand back in '02? No...he cheaped out because of budgetary reasons.

For what it's worth, Lofton made 1.025 million last year, the same amount that he's making this year. Anyway, my answer: Williams didn't believe that Rowand was able to handle full center field duties for the 2002 season. Therefore, he brought in a stopgap in Lofton. Enter 2003. Williams believed that Rowand/Harris/Rios/Borchard would outplay Lofton. I would buy that argument. Lofton, going into 2003, was turning 36 and losing speed and defensive range. Rowand was supposedly entering his prime and Borchard would be getting significant playing time in center.

Nobody believed that Lofton would continue to play this well. If, at the beginning of the 2003 season, you asked me if I would rather have a Rowand/Borchard platoon or Lofton, I'd still take Borchard/Rowand.

Pinella:
I guess everything I've read and heard about him is wrong? He is one of the most respected managers in the game. How does he get to that point by only throwing tantrums? Terry Bevington was only good at throwing tantrums and you don't see teams lining up for his services. Pinella is good at tantrums AND is a good manager. Managers are only part of the equation and ultimately the players make the team. but a grand army without a good general to lead them is a worthless army.

I don't really think that Lou Pinella is a bad manager. I think that managers, as a whole, tend to be overrated. Seriously, do you think that Bob Brenly and Mike Scioscia are great managers? My perfect manager is one who doesn't overuse "small ball," keeps the club house in harmony, and doesn't overwork young pitchers.

To sum it up: a good manager won't make a bad team good, but a good team can make a bad manager look good.

Konerko:
1999 .294 avg .511 slg% 24HR 81RBI
2000 .298 avg .481 slg% 21HR 97RBI
2001 .282 avg .507 slg% 32HR 99RBI
2002 .304 avg .498 slg% 27HR 107RBI
I don't know about you but I'd feel pretty secure paying Konerko $6 million to get the above production. Konerko's glove isn't J.D. Drew by any means but Paulie is an average fielder. So by your logic, Kenny Williams should have looked at the above numbers and say to himself that Paulie wasn't worth it for that kind of "average" power production? Nobody could've have known Paulie's offense would decline in '03 and hopefully it is just a big slump and he'll come out of it.

You and I must have different definitions of "good production." Paulie doesn't have enough power for a first baseman, and his lack of getting on base hurts his OPS even more. No, I don't think a .498 SLG% for a first baseman is anything special.

For what it's worth, here are the players making between six and seven million dollars: Tony Womack, Javy Lopez, David Segui, Tony Batista, Kerry Wood, Matt Lawton, Bob Wickman, Preston Wilson, Charles Johnson, Dmitri Young, Carlos Beltran, Todd Hundley, Eric Milton, Fernando Tatis, Javier Vasquez, Pedro Astacio, Armando Benitez, Cliff Floyd, Sterling Hitchcock, Hideki Matsui, Keith Foulke, Kevin Young, J.T. Snow, Rich Aurilia, Freddy Garcia, Jeff Cirillo, Woody Williams, Edgar Renteria, Rey Ordonez, Rusty Greer, and Shannon Stewart.

In terms of talent, I'd place Konerko on the lower end of that list, near Dmitri Young and Jeff Cirillo. My point is that we're on a budget and can't afford to spend big bucks on average players like Konerko.

On Cashman:
Give Cashman our $50,000,000 and if he assembles an annual pennant contender then I'll agree. But as long as has the unlimited means to pursue guys like Clemens, Weaver, Matsui, Mussina, and Giambi, I won't heap lots of praise on him. Let's face it, their home grown players like Jeter and Williams makes them competitive but it is the aforementioned players that put them over the top. A lot of GMs can assemble an annual contender with $150,000,000.

You forgot to add that Jorge Posada, Mariano Rivera, Nick Johnson, Andy Pettite, Alfonso Soriano, and Juan Rivera are also homegrown talent. Add Bernie Williams and Derek Jeter, and a nucleus like that could win you a few titles, with or with Giambi, Matsui etc.

On Beane and "Moneyball":
Do I think the Sox can duplicate that under the current ownership's philosophies? No.

If the Sox fired Kenny Williams and hired Paul Depodesta, then we can certainly win under JR's budget. Billy Beane continues to win, and he's under *much* tighter financial constraints.

All I want is for JR to put our payroll up there in the top 10 ($75,000,000-$80,000,000 range) and give our GM (Schueler, KW, or whoever it may be) some reasonable room to work with in a large market like Chi-town so that one trade doesn't make or break the team.

Remember, we are fighting for market position along with the Cubs. According to Mike Jones, (http://home.nycap.rr.com/nickandaj/marketsize.html) we're actually the 15th largest market in baseball.

If we don't re-sign Ordonez or Crede or Borchard because of financial reasons, then I'll start getting really mad at JR.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-29-2003, 09:32 AM
I'm only going to make one small point to illustrate the larger issue of why Reinsdorf's Sox sucked before, suck now, and will continue sucking until he sells the team.

Nobody believed that Lofton would continue to play this well. If, at the beginning of the 2003 season, you asked me if I would rather have a Rowand/Borchard platoon or Lofton, I'd still take Borchard/Rowand.

We know today that counting on Rowand to fill the everyday CF role was a lousy bet. Some of us thought it was a lousy bet last winter, too, but that's beside the point.

The point is, by dealing away (and not re-signing) Kenny Lofton, the Sox had no options to fill the CF role, besides rushing Borchard up to the majors 8 weeks into the season--a desperate move no team with championship aspirations would normally make--because the team is sucking so bad. That's not a team with championship aspirations anymore, is it?

Furthermore, the problem the Sox tried to paper over in CF in 2003 has been a glaring hole for years now. We got Lofton for cheap in '02 after NOBODY else wanted him. Singleton was a complete bust after a decent '99 rookie year. We traded Cameron for being a strikeout machine. Darren Lewis was trash.

The fact is the Sox haven't had a solid centerfielder since the hey-day of Lance Johnson in the early-90's. That was TEN YEARS ago.

So, would the extra $1 million paid to Lofton have broken Reinsdorf's bank? Would fixing the gaping hole in CF any time in the last TEN YEARS have made the Sox more competitive, perhaps even (GASP!) win a playoff game????

I don't know the answers to those questions. But I do know ignoring a long-term problem (or doing the bare minimum to address it) is what makes Jerry Reinsdorf's Sox perrennial losers.

It's just one example, but illustrates the larger issues afflicting this ballclub, and it won't change until Reinsdorf is forced to sell.

:selljerry

Dadawg_77
05-29-2003, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
[quote]
I'd say the 2000 Mets' run was based on a ton of luck. While their record was 94-68, their pythagorean record was 88-74. Zeile, Agbayani, Payton, Hampton, and Rusch all had career years.

The Mets continue to sign high priced veterans, and look where they are now. Albatross contracts and a horrid farm system. They won't see another 90 win team for five or six years.

Look how well Mo Vaughn, Burnitz, Alomar have done for them. The problem with spending big money of FA is you usually pick up the start of the downward trend of a players career.


You and I must have different definitions of "good production." Paulie doesn't have enough power for a first baseman, and his lack of getting on base hurts his OPS even more. No, I don't think a .498 SLG% for a first baseman is anything special.

Two players.
_______OBP_________SLG_________VORP_________EQA
_____1_____2______1____2______1_____2______1____2
00___340__367____558__481____42.9__32.8____293__28 5
01___326__352____444__507____25.5__46.7____268__29 3
02___357__363____531__498____40.8__49.0____305__29 6


A few facts about the above players, both can play 1B even though Player 1 was used as mostly as a DH last year. Player one is a year older. Player One was a UFA during the off season and resigned with his team. Player Two make roughly 5 million per season more the Player One. While Player Two is the better player is he worth 5 million more dollars then Player One.


For what it's worth, here are the players making between six and seven million dollars: Tony Womack, Javy Lopez, David Segui, Tony Batista, Kerry Wood, Matt Lawton, Bob Wickman, Preston Wilson, Charles Johnson, Dmitri Young, Carlos Beltran, Todd Hundley, Eric Milton, Fernando Tatis, Javier Vasquez, Pedro Astacio, Armando Benitez, Cliff Floyd, Sterling Hitchcock, Hideki Matsui, Keith Foulke, Kevin Young, J.T. Snow, Rich Aurilia, Freddy Garcia, Jeff Cirillo, Woody Williams, Edgar Renteria, Rey Ordonez, Rusty Greer, and Shannon Stewart

In terms of talent, I'd place Konerko on the lower end of that list, near Dmitri Young and Jeff Cirillo. My point is that we're on a budget and can't afford to spend big bucks on average players like Konerko.

I would value Pauly above Young and Cirillo but that doesn't mean either of them should make more the three million.


You forgot to add that Jorge Posada, Mariano Rivera, Nick Johnson, Andy Pettite, Alfonso Soriano, and Juan Rivera are also homegrown talent. Add Bernie Williams and Derek Jeter, and a nucleus like that could win you a few titles, with or with Giambi, Matsui etc.

Soriano is a quasi FA with the Yankees out bidding every one to sign him as a FA.


If the Sox fired Kenny Williams and hired Paul Depodesta, then we can certainly win under JR's budget. Billy Beane continues to win, and he's under *much* tighter financial constraints.

If we don't re-sign Ordonez or Crede or Borchard because of financial reasons, then I'll start getting really mad at JR. [/b]

While I would love to Paul get the GM job, that would probably mean Mags would be gone. Since he would price himself out of the Sox. Even though I wonder how the A's would be ran with a bigger payroll. Would they have resigned Jason Giambi? That would be key, run a tight payroll but when you find a truly special player you pony up the bucks to keep them. That might be the best way to run a team.

From above Player one is Brad Fullmer who cost one million and Player Two is Konerko.

maurice
05-29-2003, 12:24 PM
The gripes about Konerko's contract are NOT 20/20 hindsight. A number of posters here took significant heat for suggesting that the contract was way too large AT THE TIME IT WAS ANNOUNCED. The position of these posters thus was not a result of Konerko's current sucky stats.

Regarding Lofton, there's a reason he has played for four different teams in the past three years. He's playing well early in the season (as he did in 2002), but probably will drop off as the season wears on (as he did in 2002). His defense isn't very good any more, and his age makes him prone to nagging injuries which affect his speed. IMHO, it was perfectly reasonable for KW to think that Borchard and Rowand would combine to produce more than Lofton in 2003. They still may, as Borchard will continue to improve and Rowand finally appears to have recovered from his accident (see this week's AAA boxscores). (Harris, OTOH, is not a major league OF and may not be a major league 2B either.)

Originally posted by Dadawg_77
While I would love to Paul get the GM job, that would probably mean Mags would be gone. Since he would price himself out of the Sox. Even though I wonder how the A's would be ran with a bigger payroll. Would they have resigned Jason Giambi? That would be key, run a tight payroll but when you find a truly special player you pony up the bucks to keep them. That might be the best way to run a team.

IIRC, Oakland tried to re-sign Giambi and offered enough cash, but the A's ownership balked at including a no-trade clause, causing Giambi to test the market.

Dadawg_77
05-29-2003, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by maurice

IIRC, Oakland tried to re-sign Giambi and offered enough cash, but the A's ownership balked at including a no-trade clause, causing Giambi to test the market.

They balked because they didn't want to get tied to big salary. That is why the ownership wouldn't agree to the no trade clause.