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View Full Version : Players Responsible For Underachieving Mess Not Upper Management


joecrede
05-24-2003, 10:22 PM
Tell me how JR and Williams are responsible for guys with track records (Konerko, Ordonez, Buehrle, Daubach, Koch) underachieving?

captain54
05-24-2003, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Tell me how JR and Williams are responsible for guys with track records (Konerko, Ordonez, Buehrle, Daubach, Koch) underachieving?

Why have a field manager then??

you could put a chimpanzee in the clubhouse and leave it at that, saying "well, its up to the players to perform, so screw it, this chimp will be just fine"

Manuel and Williams only qualifications are they are suitable lapdogs for Reinsdorf, so give me a break.....

Manuel and Williams have no credibility with the players, and the players have quit playing for them a while ago....it seems like most players are just biding their time until they can get moved elsewhere.....

MHOUSE
05-24-2003, 11:21 PM
This team has quit and that's on the manager. KW brings in crappy players and then forces Jerry's hand to play them. Reinsy won't spend money or put out a good product. It's crap top to bottom.

joecrede
05-25-2003, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by captain54
Why have a field manager then??

you could put a chimpanzee in the clubhouse and leave it at that, saying "well, its up to the players to perform, so screw it, this chimp will be just fine"

Manuel and Williams only qualifications are they are suitable lapdogs for Reinsdorf, so give me a break.....

Manuel and Williams have no credibility with the players, and the players have quit playing for them a while ago....it seems like most players are just biding their time until they can get moved elsewhere.....

If the Sox were hitting as everyone expected them to and were still in this position, then blame Williams. I'm not saying Williams is a great GM or even a very good one, but there is no way he can be blamed for guys who are in the primes of their careers having horrible years.

What would this board have said if before the year KW traded Ordonez, Buehrle, and Konerko to the Cubs for Alou, Estes, and Karros? Yet that sorry Cubs trio is performing at least equally as well as three of the cornerstones of our franchise.

joecrede
05-25-2003, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
This team has quit and that's on the manager. KW brings in crappy players and then forces Jerry's hand to play them. Reinsy won't spend money or put out a good product. It's crap top to bottom.

It's not the crappy players who are the problem. The problem is the good players who are playing like crap.

oldcomiskey
05-25-2003, 10:24 AM
wouldnt you like to know why the cubs are in 1st place with crappy players and we are dead in the water---they have a manager---we dont---Jim Fregosi where are you

joecrede
05-25-2003, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
wouldnt you like to know why the cubs are in 1st place with crappy players and we are dead in the water---they have a manager---we dont---Jim Fregosi where are you

The Cubs are in first because of their pitching and young players like Patterson and Choi are beginning to fufill their potential. Dusty is just along for the ride.

MHOUSE
05-25-2003, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
The Cubs are in first because of their pitching and young players like Patterson and Choi are beginning to fufill their potential. Dusty is just along for the ride.

Dusty is the key. He doesn't put up with that aw shucks we're cute losers cubbie crap. He wants to win and knows how to win. Yeah guys are filling potential, but he has a lot to do with making it click.

oldcomiskey
05-25-2003, 10:46 AM
keep right on believing that BS-----do you think their pitching on paper is better than ours or that Choi is better than Konerko

joecrede
05-25-2003, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
keep right on believing that BS-----do you think their pitching on paper is better than ours or that Choi is better than Konerko

Absolutely. To both questions.

joecrede
05-25-2003, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
Dusty is the key. He doesn't put up with that aw shucks we're cute losers cubbie crap. He wants to win and knows how to win. Yeah guys are filling potential, but he has a lot to do with making it click.

This is not meant to be a criticism of Baker, but like Phil Jackson going to the Lakers with Shaq and Kobe, Baker walked in to Prior, Wood, Patterson, Sosa and Choi. Not a bad core to build around. I just hope he lets Wood and Prior throw as many pitches as they want . . .

captain54
05-25-2003, 11:22 AM
My only argument for NOT firing Jerry Manuel is that the White Sox higher-ups would only look for another lackey to replace him...

We have had ONE solid half year of baseball (first half, 2000) during the regime of Manuel.....he has lost control of this team, alienated the fans, and the players have quit playing for him and it shows....

Hangar18
05-25-2003, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
Dusty is the key. He doesn't put up with that aw shucks we're cute losers cubbie crap. He wants to win and knows how to win. Yeah guys are filling potential, but he has a lot to do with making it click.

Look how the cubs "signed" him.....He was let go by a World Series Team, and NOONE ELSE was interested in his services.
That should tell you about his skills. Another case of the 46" Flat Screen TV falling off the Truck right in front of your house. Or the old digging thru the Garbage and finding a nice Ham Sandwich

gosox41
05-25-2003, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by captain54
My only argument for NOT firing Jerry Manuel is that the White Sox higher-ups would only look for another lackey to replace him...

We have had ONE solid half year of baseball (first half, 2000) during the regime of Manuel.....he has lost control of this team, alienated the fans, and the players have quit playing for him and it shows....

My friends and I were talking about this theory. If you read Manuel's comments it sounds ek he doesn't even want to be here. He's talking of retiring if hte team wins it all etc. He won't quit becuase he wants his money. I truly think JM is going through the motions hoping he gets fired. I don't think he cares anymore.

And the reason he doesn't care falls to KW. All his interfernece and undermining of KW's job in the clubhouse has sucked the fun out of it for him

I also think KW/JM combo has alienated the players. Does anyone else think it's more then coincidental that a team with proven hitters for the last 3-4 years has all been in a slump at one time? I'm not saying they're not trying, I just think they're playing more selfishly.

The only two everyday players I enjoy watching are Jiminez and Olivo. The rest is crap. It's like an effort to them. How do 5-6 average to great hitters all go in a slump at once and then have that slump extend almost 50 games?

That team ain't right.

Bob

keaddy
05-25-2003, 11:33 AM
joe-when one or two guys are struggling-you accept it.When a whole team is struggling-you have to look at the effects of management.

something is rotten in Denmark here-it's pretty rotten on the southside,too.The past 3 seasons this team has come out of spring training ill prepared and a mess.The roster is a mess,this is a badly organized team.

some hard decisions are gonna have to be made to straighten this mess out.Start with the GM................

K-Y

joecrede
05-25-2003, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by keaddy
joe-when one or two guys are struggling-you accept it.When a whole team is struggling-you have to look at the effects of management.

something is rotten in Denmark here-it's pretty rotten on the southside,too.The past 3 seasons this team has come out of spring training ill prepared and a mess.The roster is a mess,this is a badly organized team.

some hard decisions are gonna have to be made to straighten this mess out.Start with the GM................

K-Y

I refuse to believe that when a hitter steps into the batter's box that management strife is anywhere in the first 1,000 things he's thinking about. Now, if you want to fire someone to attempt to shake things up that's different. Kenny Williams long ago stopped grounding into double plays for this outfit.

The roster is not a mess. The best players on this team are underperforming their career norms. In some cases those underperformances are drastic.

Lip Man 1
05-25-2003, 01:03 PM
Joe:

Just wondering...

Do you think the combo of Rowand / Harris is up to MLB standards for CF?

Do you think the combo of Alomar Jr. and Olivo is up to MLB standards at catching?

Do you think all the pressure of your namesake was right since he had all of about 40 games in the majors?

Do you think Garland / Wright are quality MLB pitchers?

I don't to any of these questions. For not solving those problems you look to management.

Lip

joecrede
05-25-2003, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Joe:

Just wondering...

Do you think the combo of Rowand / Harris is up to MLB standards for CF?

Do you think the combo of Alomar Jr. and Olivo is up to MLB standards at catching?

Do you think all the pressure of your namesake was right since he had all of about 40 games in the majors?

Do you think Garland / Wright are quality MLB pitchers?

I don't to any of these questions. For not solving those problems you look to management.

Lip

Whatever pressure has been put on Crede is the direct result of the team's best hitters all not hitting. Are you suggesting that he should have started the year in Charlotte?

As far as Garland and Wright being quality pitchers, yes I believe they are. Especially considering they were slotted as #3 and #4 at the beginning of the year. Is Buehrle a quality pitcher? He sure hasn't been this year.

As far as center goes, Rowand and Harris were only stopgaps until Borchard arrived. He's here now, his numbers in Charlotte don't give much hope that he'll be any better than those two, but he is one of the better power hitting prospects around. We shall see ...

And the catcher be it Olivo or Alomar has been servicable with Olivo showing flashes of promise both defensively and offensively.

Fridaythe13thJason
05-25-2003, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Joe:

Just wondering...

Do you think the combo of Rowand / Harris is up to MLB standards for CF?

Do you think the combo of Alomar Jr. and Olivo is up to MLB standards at catching?

Do you think all the pressure of your namesake was right since he had all of about 40 games in the majors?

Do you think Garland / Wright are quality MLB pitchers?

I don't to any of these questions. For not solving those problems you look to management.

Lip

Rowand/Harris is not up to MLB standards.

Alomar/Olivo is far above MLB standards for catching.

Joe Crede needs to be here at some point. He played well last year...every other team does this. Joe Crede should have been a nice 8 hitter not having to worry about his contribution...too bad the rest of the team sucks.

Garland/Wright are decent quality MLB pitchers. I'm not sure what else you want from your 4&5.

WhiteSoxWinner
05-25-2003, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by SoCalUIC
Garland/Wright are decent quality MLB pitchers. I'm not sure what else you want from your 4&5.

Garland was your number 3 pitcher coming in. Loaiza was the number five. The fact that Loaiza is doing so well does not make up for the fact that Garland is doing so poorly. The book is still out on Danny Wright.

WhiteSoxWinner
05-25-2003, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Tell me how JR and Williams are responsible for guys with track records (Konerko, Ordonez, Buehrle, Daubach, Koch) underachieving?

I actually don't blame KW as much as Manual. You have to move up the chain of command. JM has had 8 coasches fired duing his tenure. At some point, you have to pin the blame on JM.

Originally posted by joecrede
This is not meant to be a criticism of Baker, but like Phil Jackson going to the Lakers with Shaq and Kobe, Baker walked in to Prior, Wood, Patterson, Sosa and Choi. Not a bad core to build around. I just hope he lets Wood and Prior throw as many pitches as they want . . .

The Phil Jackson comparison is interesting. As I have said, the manager is there to guide and motivate. Kobe and Shaq never won a title until Phil Jackson is coach because he motivates and guides. He convinced Kobe and Shaq to put aside the egos and go for the title. He was able to point the Lakers in the right direction.

JM has proven he can't point this team in the right direction. The teams plays too erratically. Good for a few games, absolute crap for the next few. The team has tuned him out. Time to move up the chain of command.

Originally posted by keaddy
joe-when one or two guys are struggling-you accept it.When a whole team is struggling-you have to look at the effects of management.

Yep. You can't fire the 25 man roster. I think the roster is good. We just need a change in the manager to get through to these guys because JM has lost them.

Fridaythe13thJason
05-25-2003, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
Garland was your number 3 pitcher coming in. Loaiza was the number five. The fact that Loaiza is doing so well does not make up for the fact that Garland is doing so poorly. The book is still out on Danny Wright.

I'm looking at this team at the moment...at this moment, you can't blame pitchers...this is all about offense.

DonkeyKongerko
05-25-2003, 04:41 PM
How good do we really think Konerko is compared to Choi?

Konerko always had speed problems but made up for it with the long ball. Choi has shown the ability to take an extra base on a gapper or even a short bloop single.

Defensively Choi has shown some range and Konerko is basically adequate so I say it's a wash.

Here is the thing: last season Konerko walked 44 times. He is on pace for similar numbers this year. Choi has already walked 25 times this year and is on pace for over 80 walks. If Choi goes into a slump (like now) at least he is getting on base once in a while. When PK goes in a slump he becomes a dead spot in the lineup.

oldcomiskey
05-26-2003, 11:23 AM
before we annoit chop suey as the next God of Chicago lets see if he can match whjat Konerko has done the last 3 years

Hangar18
05-26-2003, 11:52 AM
Yes, these Players need to Look in "the mirror". When you go into a season, with "Playoff Hopes" on the mind, you can only REALISTICALLY have 1 or 2 question marks in your Roster. By Question Marks, those are players that you are HOPING will do very well, and step it up a Notch at the MLB level. The Sox (just like in 2001 and 2002, went into the season with Question Marks to fill a Dictionary. For an example on How To Win at Baseball, one need only look to the Yankees/Braves. Any Holes you have, You FILL THEM. You dont Ignore them. Can you see if KW/Reinsy owned Property? Hey theres a bad leak in the roof. Just leave it alone, Hopefully it wont rain this summer too much. You lose a Pitcher, you ADD ANOTHER ONE OF THE SAME CALIBER. You dont just elevate everyone up in the Rotation. Thats Plain Foolishness. Even if our hitting were there, my biggest concern was we STILL NEEDED ANOTHER FRONTLINE STARTING PITCHER, I figured the team would just use up our 2 QUESTION MARK LIMIT on the Pitching Staff/Rotation. We lucked out with Loiaza playing so well and really being our ACE. Colon has stepped up like the Veteran Presence he is and has done nicely. After that, all Buehrle is doing is merely playing subpar. And the other two
Wright and Garland have been AWFUL. (save one or two quality starts, nothing consistent) Thats the season right there. Now sprinkle in some Terrible Hitting from the starters, some Bad MGRIAL Decisions, a dash of bad baserunning, a pinch of no speed, lack of a leadoff hitter, SIMMER for a couple of months, and youve got a RECIPE FOR "LOST SEASON-Chicago Style. Server Chilled.

Hullett_Fan
05-26-2003, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
before we annoit chop suey as the next God of Chicago lets see if he can match whjat Konerko has done the last 3 years


I don't think the bigoted 'chop suey' remark is necessary...but you do make a point. That said, I predict Hee Seop will have a much better career and I'd love to have him on this team in place of Konerko. Choi is a LH bat and in the next year or two will average 40 HR at a power position (compared to Konerko's paltry 25-30 HR).


Like it or not (I assume you wouldn't), but the Cubs have put / are putting a interesting, entertaining and winning ballclub together. That's not happening on the South Side unfortunately.

keaddy
05-26-2003, 12:23 PM
joe-the roster is a mess.We're carrying 12 pitchers.Two,(White,Sanders)who we don't want to see in a game.A closer who we can't use to close,3 first basemen.Centerfield is a choice between a AAA second baseman or a guy who isn't ready for primetime.We have no bench,with the exception of Graffinino and we came out of spring training with 3 catchers-who we may need if Alomor is hurting.This is not how championship teams are structured.

No,our hitters aren't thinking about KW when they go to bat.But management creates the whole atmosphere that these guy's play in.Like I said,if it was just Konerko or Maggs,we could write it off.But when a whole team of talented players are underachieving-there has to be a reason.Personally,I think it's the GM and the Manager.This team is a mess and has been since '00.I can only think of one thing that's different since '00.


K-Y

p.s-Joe-good to talk to you again!

oldcomiskey
05-27-2003, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by Hullett_Fan
I don't think the bigoted 'chop suey' remark is necessary...but you do make a point. That said, I predict Hee Seop will have a much better career and I'd love to have him on this team in place of Konerko. Choi is a LH bat and in the next year or two will average 40 HR at a power position (compared to Konerko's paltry 25-30 HR).


Like it or not (I assume you wouldn't), but the Cubs have put / are putting a interesting, entertaining and winning ballclub together. That's not happening on the South Side unfortunately.

I wont argue with you on the Cubs being more entertaining---its just heartbreaking to see the Sox go thru the motions---of course its also heartbreaking to Me to see Johnny Cash getting old

guillen4life13
05-27-2003, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by keaddy
joe-the roster is a mess.We're carrying 12 pitchers.Two,(White,Sanders)who we don't want to see in a game.A closer who we can't use to close,3 first basemen.Centerfield is a choice between a AAA second baseman or a guy who isn't ready for primetime.We have no bench,with the exception of Graffinino and we came out of spring training with 3 catchers-who we may need if Alomor is hurting.This is not how championship teams are structured.

No,our hitters aren't thinking about KW when they go to bat.But management creates the whole atmosphere that these guy's play in.Like I said,if it was just Konerko or Maggs,we could write it off.But when a whole team of talented players are underachieving-there has to be a reason.Personally,I think it's the GM and the Manager.This team is a mess and has been since '00.I can only think of one thing that's different since '00.


K-Y

p.s-Joe-good to talk to you again!

K-Y?

Sorry, I haven't posted in some time. What does that mean?

keaddy
05-28-2003, 01:28 AM
It's my nickname............


K-Y

UnderpantsGnome
05-28-2003, 02:54 PM
[QUOTE Does anyone else think it's more then coincidental that a team with proven hitters for the last 3-4 years has all been in a slump at one time? I'm not saying they're not trying, I just think they're playing more selfishly.[/QUOTE]

I think you nailed it.

These guys are probably anticipating a fire sale and want to pad their own numbers instead of contributing as a team.

In 2000, they were having fun out there. Everybody seemed more relaxed because they knew their teammates would pick them up. Not now! I've seen two or three hits strung together only a few times this season... :(: