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View Full Version : Open Letter to Jerry Reinsdorf: We Dont Like You


Hangar18
05-22-2003, 08:05 PM
Im sitting here, watching another potentially great season waste away, and its a number of things that are bothering me about this season and this Organization. MOST of the things wrong that have Hurt this team, can be traced back to you Jerry. Yeah, youve left your Narrow-Minded Fingerprints all over this teams troubles. Yeah, its not ALL your fault. But think about it. Some of this teams Biggest Blunders, the things that are Hurting us for Years to Come, have come to Fruition because of the Foolishness youve exhibited as the Leader of this organization.
* Strike of 94
* Your brief career dabbling in Urban Planning/Stadium Design
* Your refusal to spend money to Sign Key Players
* Your refusal to spend money to Keep Key Players
* Your putting the Budgetary Handcuffs on your GM's
* Your allowing of the Chicago Media to treat Sox Fans as garbage, and not worthy of any attention

Jerry, do us a favor. Get Out. Were good People. We DESERVE a champion here. Youve had 23 years and really, weve come close 3 times. Jerry, Get Out Of Here. As you read this, take note of the people who will take a moment to write to you now and take note of our Mood. Its not good. We shouldve been Better than this. we squandered everything. We dont even have our Dignity, you let someone take that too away from us.
everyone, Jerrys going to read this. Feel Free to say something Nice to Him.

TheBigHurt
05-22-2003, 09:09 PM
I also dont favor or like JR!!!!! AND thats a fact BE GOOD

Hangar18
05-22-2003, 11:24 PM
I sure hope Hurt and I are the only ones who are going to come out on the Carpet here and tell Jerry we dont like him.
in plain black and white. Jerry, feel free to email me here, I'll give you my Name/address/ph number to prove im real. I dont think you should own this team anymore, and need to leave quickly. I'll say again. Jerry, I dont like you and the job youve done here. sorry. next owner please...

Nellie_Fox
05-22-2003, 11:47 PM
Do you really think he cares? Do you really think that he'll sell the team because some White Sox fans want him to?

He knows that the vast majority of people who go to sports events couldn't care less who owns the team. In fact, most of them don't even know.

WhiteSox = Life
05-23-2003, 12:36 AM
No offense, Hangar, but you're been one of the most outspoken to get rid of Reinsdorf and it hasn't happened yet. What makes you think it's going to happen now because of this thread?

Jerry could care less about what anybody says and will go about things his own way for as long as he wants or can.

In fact, as long as you're trying to get Reinsdorf to leave, why not ask Jerry to solve world hunger and create world peace? JR's chances of stepping down because of your post is about as likely as him solving either of the two above scenarios.

In other words, it's not going to happen anytime soon, barring some very, very unexpected event. Hangar, say what you will and plead as you may, but it's all futile. It truly is.

Mammoo
05-23-2003, 12:57 AM
The cumulative effect of complaints like this thread is what causes change. One man's opinion, one letter to the editor or one phone call won't do it but as time goes on the will of the masses will eventually win out. It just doesn't happen as quickly as we would like.

It sounds cliche or corny, but we're the consumer and if we are unhappy, our voice must be heard. If not then we are nothing more than Cub fans!

AngelLeroy
05-23-2003, 01:02 AM
I don't like Reinsdorf, but if anything things like this will make him dig in his heels and last even longer. And if the Sox finish in first anytime in the next 20 years or so, before the team goes 3 and out, he'll take a shot at WSI posters and ruin the whole thing.

Nellie_Fox
05-23-2003, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by Mammoo
The cumulative effect of complaints like this thread is what causes change. One man's opinion, one letter to the editor or one phone call won't do it but as time goes on the will of the masses will eventually win out. It just doesn't happen as quickly as we would like. You're dreaming. This is private enterprise, not government. You don't have a vote.

What, do you think Jerry is sitting home, reading WSI (not bloody likely) and the letters to the editor, and saying, "gee, some of the Sox fans hate me because I'm not Steinbrenner. I guess I'd better sell the team to some undisclosed billionaire who will spend whatever it takes to become just like the Yankees, regardless of the financial losses that will entail."

Jerry will sell the White Sox when he feels like it, and not a moment before.

captain54
05-23-2003, 01:28 AM
Reinsdorf wants to win just as much as the average Sox fan does, but I think its pretty apparent that after 23 years we can safely say that Jerry is simply not capable of producing a winner on the South side...

we are far too forgiving in Chicago....if Reinsdorf was in New York he would have been forced to sell a long time ago....New York fans simply do not settle for mediocrity like we do here.....Steinbrenner understands this and spends accordingly....

this is the sort of thing that will probably take care of itself here on the South side....3 years after a winning season we still stumble around .500 and the fan base is back to shrinking again, as well as attendance....if this continues, more investors will probably start bailing and Jerry will finally say enough is enough...

WhiteSoxWinner
05-23-2003, 01:55 AM
Originally posted by captain54
this is the sort of thing that will probably take care of itself here on the South side....3 years after a winning season we still stumble around .500 and the fan base is back to shrinking again, as well as attendance....if this continues, more investors will probably start bailing and Jerry will finally say enough is enough...

OK, off the bat, I am not attacking your post, because you may have a point. But, the question I want to raise with your point is this: Does this mean the All-Star game on the Southside is a bad thing? You have to admit, the All-Star game caused a spike in the season ticket sales, so does that give JR another three year lease? We won in 2000, went three and out, and after this season, the three year time limit would be up. However, JR got a big ticket boost from the All-Star game this season.

Following your logic, which I don't think is wrong, we just got at least three more years of JR due to the All-Star game. Great...

Hangar18
05-23-2003, 07:43 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
You're dreaming. This is private enterprise, not government. You don't have a vote.

What, do you think Jerry is sitting home, reading WSI (not bloody likely) and the letters to the editor, and saying, "gee, some of the Sox fans hate me because I'm not Steinbrenner. I guess I'd better sell the team to some undisclosed billionaire who will spend whatever it takes to become just like the Yankees, regardless of the financial losses that will entail."

Jerry will sell the White Sox when he feels like it, and not a moment before.

I suppose your going to tell me theres no Santa Claus either heh heh. We need hope. Reinsdorf CANT live til 100. hes going to move on spiritually sometime............

LuvSox
05-23-2003, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
I suppose your going to tell me theres no Santa Claus either heh heh. We need hope. Reinsdorf CANT live til 100.

Sure he can, Mr. Burns is 104. I just can't figure out how long Smithers (KW) will be around.

Kilroy
05-23-2003, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by captain54
we are far too forgiving in Chicago....if Reinsdorf was in New York he would have been forced to sell a long time ago....New York fans simply do not settle for mediocrity like we do here.....Steinbrenner understands this and spends accordingly....


2 things:

1. How exactly would any NY owner be forced to sell? Gun to his temple? Chinese water torture?

2. What makes you think Reinsdorf wouldn't spend if he had the resources that Steinbrenner has?

Dan H
05-23-2003, 09:27 AM
I have always been a big critic of Reinsdorf, but I think things really started going downhill in 1994. He had a new stadium (worts and all) and a contending team. From 1990-1993, the Sox drew over 10 million. The Cubs were more than pathetic. He had a real chance to turn things around and turn this into a Sox town. Instead he wanted to break the union. He then began blaming fans for everything. He then just wanted prove he was right. The result: No World Series.

I am only interested in the White Flag Trade as a historical event and its devastating effect on the franchise. Bill Veeck was a large part of baseball history, too, but he is gone. It is now time to part with the past and do something special. I don't believe Reinsdorf is capable of doing that. The only reason the Sox have a chance is because they are in a weak division. We have long needed a change at the top. It just isn't happening.

Iwritecode
05-23-2003, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
You're dreaming. This is private enterprise, not government. You don't have a vote.

What, do you think Jerry is sitting home, reading WSI (not bloody likely) and the letters to the editor, and saying, "gee, some of the Sox fans hate me because I'm not Steinbrenner. I guess I'd better sell the team to some undisclosed billionaire who will spend whatever it takes to become just like the Yankees, regardless of the financial losses that will entail."

Jerry will sell the White Sox when he feels like it, and not a moment before.

I agree with most of what Nellie says here but there is one way to get to JR...

Stop going to games, stop watching them on TV and stop buying any Sox memorabilia.

It's not exactly "forcing" him to sell but it's the one thing fans can do to voice their displeasure. Considering that JR seems to care more about the bottom line than anything else, that's the only way to really hurt him is to stop giving him money.

The number of season-ticket holders would make it difficult to do this year. Also considering on good the Sox should be "on paper" makes it difficult to stay away. Although if there should happen to be another fire-sale at the trade deadline this year and the Sox again finish 10 games out, I think that could be the beginning of the end of the JR era. Fans would definitely have a reason to stay away then. Then maybe (that's a big maybe) JR would get the hint and let someone else have a shot a doing something with this team.

Procol Harum
05-23-2003, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
I agree with most of what Nellie says here but there is one way to get to JR...

Stop going to games, stop watching them on TV and stop buying any Sox memorabilia.



I'd say this process has been gaining steam for several years and, barring some miraculous upsurge by our Sox will work its wonders on Reinsdorf eventually. Our attendance is down 12% from last year, which was down from the year before, which...well, you get the picture. I can't imagine that Sox TV broadcasts are going through the roof, and by judging from the repetition of commercials they're hardly a hot advertising buck. And when you go to the stores around here these days the situation has changed from 2000's aftermath--Cub merchandise outnumbers Sox paraphernalia 10 to 1 (if the Sox stuff is even to be seen).

Some of you are right in saying that JR doesn't have to listen to the fans and his stubborn streak really clicks in when he and his management group is criticized. But Jerry does hafta to listen to his investment partners and if things continue to death spiral then he will be forced to unload the team. Won't happen this fall, but.....like a rat in his hole he can be smoked out eventually.

captain54
05-23-2003, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy


1. How exactly would any NY owner be forced to sell? Gun to his temple? Chinese water torture?

I've lived in NYC during the years of mediocre Yankee teams....the media pressure for one was blistering....rather than indifference, (like we have here), the general populace of NYC, from the elite citizens on down, looked down upon Steinbrenner with scorn, his reputation suffered in other areas of business, and basically made it difficult for him to be a citizen of NYC.....


Originally posted by Kilroy

2. What makes you think Reinsdorf wouldn't spend if he had the resources that Steinbrenner has?

What makes you think Reinsdorf doesnt have the resources Steinbrenner has?? Chicago is a baseball/tradition-rich town, third largest metro in the US....at this point however, Reinsdorf has pretty much tainted any possibility of taken advantage of the potential gold mine he has here in Chicago....especially in a town where we have the Cubs, the antithesis of the perennial loser....

Reinsdorf's attitude has always been "if you come, we'll spend"...
as opposed to Steinbrenner's "I'll do all I can to bring a winner, you have my word" and he's delivered.....for everytime incidence where Reiney HAS spent, (Albert Belle), that are many, many more examples of him trying to go bargain basement....

Funny......Reiney cries poor, yet has the resources to refurbish and "update" a 13 year old stadium....with fan friendly "updates" that should have originally been incorportated into the original design of Comiskey, if he would have heeded the desires of the fans for a more retro, traditional ballpark....scultped more along the lines of old Comiskey....

Despite all the negativity that exists in this town towards Reiney, his modus operandi is to insulate himself with a battalion of yes men and ass smoochers who worship the ground he walks on....and of course, one can always run off to a hideaway in Arizona when the heat gets too hot....

captain54
05-23-2003, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
OK, off the bat, I am not attacking your post, because you may have a point. But, the question I want to raise with your point is this: Does this mean the All-Star game on the Southside is a bad thing? You have to admit, the All-Star game caused a spike in the season ticket sales, so does that give JR another three year lease? We won in 2000, went three and out, and after this season, the three year time limit would be up. However, JR got a big ticket boost from the All-Star game this season.

Following your logic, which I don't think is wrong, we just got at least three more years of JR due to the All-Star game. Great...

If the Sox go ten games or so out after the break. and Jerry Manuel is not fired, any advantage of the All Star game will be quickly evaporated by the end of the the season.....

gosox41
05-23-2003, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by Mammoo
The cumulative effect of complaints like this thread is what causes change. One man's opinion, one letter to the editor or one phone call won't do it but as time goes on the will of the masses will eventually win out. It just doesn't happen as quickly as we would like.

It sounds cliche or corny, but we're the consumer and if we are unhappy, our voice must be heard. If not then we are nothing more than Cub fans!

For what it's worth, I've e-mailed the team directly through Whitesox.com. I have gotten a personal response. I e-mail at the end of last season expressing my disappointment. I kept the e-mail address of the person and e-mailed again this past week expressing even more disappointment. I even made reference to this site as a of knowing what die hard fans like/don't like about the team.

While an ownership change is unlikely any time soon, things like firing JM and KW can change if enough frustration is there. Tell the truth about how you feel. If you're going to go to less games, then put that in the e-mail. Anything to draw the attention of the brass.

The person responded was prompt and courteous. She said she'd send my letter to some committee (I asked for it to be spent to JR). Committees may mean nothing, but if enough fans keep e-mailing the team airing reasonable complaints about the realistic issues, things are bound to change. In my experience, there is power in numbers.

Bob

dwnstatesoxfan
05-23-2003, 11:19 AM
I've spent a lot of time thinking about this over the years, and I have concluded that Reinsdorf wants to win, but just doesn't know quite how to get it done. Absent his Bulls years with MJ, his track record is pretty dismal.

1983 was a special year. In 1990, the Sox had what was probably my favorite teams of all the time I've been a Sox fan. And, 1993 was the fruits of the unappreciated work of Larry Himes rebuiling of the farm system along with some great draft picks. Himes was subsequently fired at the end of the 1990 season.

The only other continuing theme in a Reinsdorf organization seems to be calamity. Reinsdorf is a petty man who has carried on a hostile relationship with his fans. He's an egomaniac who refuses to admit when he's made a mistake until it's too late. Hence, the ridiculous design of Comiskey Park and the U.S. Cellular deal that was necessary to undo his disaster of a stadium design.

Bill Gleason summed it up better than I'd ever heard it two mornings ago on The Score. Jerry Reinsdorf is not a happy man. He's having no fun, and besides running a business, one who owns a sports team has to have fun. It's just simply not profitable enough to be involved, unless you really enjoy it.

Two words that will bring attendance back to the Cell: FOR SALE

Hangar18
05-23-2003, 11:29 AM
SELL JERRY SELL

LuvSox
05-23-2003, 11:47 AM
Sell

Our

Sox

Hangar18
05-23-2003, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSox = Life
No offense, Hangar, but you're been one of the most outspoken to get rid of Reinsdorf and it hasn't happened yet.

In other words, it's not going to happen anytime soon, barring some very, very unexpected event. Hangar, say what you will and plead as you may, but it's all futile. It truly is.

Brother, your probably right. But maybe, just maybe, enough fans just keep saying it. Keep chanting it. Keep Mentioning it.
Crazier things have happened. Look at the team on the northside. they got one of the greatest pitchers of this century, simply by foolish luck. I can only hope against hope. GET OUT JERRY

steff
05-23-2003, 12:08 PM
I've had the pleasure, yes pleasure, of meeting and talking with Jerry at length several times. You guys.. he wants a WS more than you can imagine. And whatever you think you know he is NOT the man with the final word on payroll and personnel issues. There is a board (kind of like the 7 dwarfs in Vanilla Sky :D: ). He is the "public spokesperson". Yes, his thoughts have merit and he does have some weight, but what happens behind closed doors is not ALL his doings. I know it's easy to blame him cause he's the face we see and the name we hear. But he is not the sole owner. The blame needs to be distributed equally.

doogiec
05-23-2003, 12:09 PM
Between 1960 and 2002, the White Sox have drawn a total of 6,334,000 less fans than the league averages.

This has been consistent throughout several ownership changes and one stadium change. The White Sox were not well supported during the Veeck and Allyn regimes.

Why would anyone want to buy this team anyway? Second class status to the Cubs for years, weak attendance for years?

We need to remember a couple of key points. Reinsdorf owns less than 10% of this team. His selling of that small portion would likely have little effect on the team's operation. If the entire ownership group would choose to sell, why would the new owner keep the team here anyway?

I'd love to see the Sox win sometime in my lifetime too, but lets face it, the idea of a miracle billionaire who is beloved by the masses buying this team is a little far fetched. This team has been seconds away from moving out of town too many times in my lifetime to believe it may not happen again.

steff
05-23-2003, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by gosox41

The person responded was prompt and courteous. She said she'd send my letter to some committee (I asked for it to be spent to JR). Committees may mean nothing, but if enough fans keep e-mailing the team airing reasonable complaints about the realistic issues, things are bound to change. In my experience, there is power in numbers.

Bob


The Sox are run by committee. Not by JR.

Hangar18
05-23-2003, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by steff3603
I've had the pleasure, yes pleasure, of meeting and talking with Jerry at length several times. You guys.. he wants a WS more than you can imagine. And whatever you think you know he is NOT the man with the final word on payroll and personnel issues. There is a board (kind of like the 7 dwarfs in Vanilla Sky :D: ). He is the "public spokesperson". Yes, his thoughts have merit and he does have some weight, but what happens behind closed doors is not ALL his doings. I know it's easy to blame him cause he's the face we see and the name we hear. But he is not the sole owner. The blame needs to be distributed equally.

So the Sox are Beauracratizing themselves into Extinction?
I wish someone on that committee could see the writing on the wall

gosox41
05-23-2003, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by dwnstatesoxfan
I've spent a lot of time thinking about this over the years, and I have concluded that Reinsdorf wants to win, but just doesn't know quite how to get it done. Absent his Bulls years with MJ, his track record is pretty dismal.

1983 was a special year. In 1990, the Sox had what was probably my favorite teams of all the time I've been a Sox fan. And, 1993 was the fruits of the unappreciated work of Larry Himes rebuiling of the farm system along with some great draft picks. Himes was subsequently fired at the end of the 1990 season.

The only other continuing theme in a Reinsdorf organization seems to be calamity. Reinsdorf is a petty man who has carried on a hostile relationship with his fans. He's an egomaniac who refuses to admit when he's made a mistake until it's too late. Hence, the ridiculous design of Comiskey Park and the U.S. Cellular deal that was necessary to undo his disaster of a stadium design.

Bill Gleason summed it up better than I'd ever heard it two mornings ago on The Score. Jerry Reinsdorf is not a happy man. He's having no fun, and besides running a business, one who owns a sports team has to have fun. It's just simply not profitable enough to be involved, unless you really enjoy it.

Two words that will bring attendance back to the Cell: FOR SALE


JR also has this obession with loyalty. It's like once you're on his side, you can do no wrong in his eyes. Rob Gallas is a perfect example. Fans not coming to the ballpark...blame the fans. It's certainly not hte marketing departments fault at all.

JR keeps his cronies around. Maybe they massage his ego. Maybe they have dirt on JR. Look how many years Krause was kept around as the Bulls became the laughingstock of the NBA. You can't live on your past forever, especially in sports. KW has done a lousy job, he's still here. Gallas is an idiot, JM is still around.

The list is endless. Eitiher you're in or you're out with him. Looks to me like JR is turning into a bitter old man.

Bob

pudge
05-23-2003, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by steff3603
I've had the pleasure, yes pleasure, of meeting and talking with Jerry at length several times. You guys.. he wants a WS more than you can imagine. And whatever you think you know he is NOT the man with the final word on payroll and personnel issues. There is a board (kind of like the 7 dwarfs in Vanilla Sky :D: ). He is the "public spokesperson". Yes, his thoughts have merit and he does have some weight, but what happens behind closed doors is not ALL his doings. I know it's easy to blame him cause he's the face we see and the name we hear. But he is not the sole owner. The blame needs to be distributed equally.

Yup, yup. Well said. I like JR. Believe it or not, I really do. I think people are kind of ignorant if they think he runs the entire show.

gosox41
05-23-2003, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by steff3603
I've had the pleasure, yes pleasure, of meeting and talking with Jerry at length several times. You guys.. he wants a WS more than you can imagine. And whatever you think you know he is NOT the man with the final word on payroll and personnel issues. There is a board (kind of like the 7 dwarfs in Vanilla Sky :D: ). He is the "public spokesperson". Yes, his thoughts have merit and he does have some weight, but what happens behind closed doors is not ALL his doings. I know it's easy to blame him cause he's the face we see and the name we hear. But he is not the sole owner. The blame needs to be distributed equally.

Without getting into too much detail (which probably hurts my credibility) the Board of Directors have no power whatsoever. Moves happen, and they're not voted on. JR is controlling partner and he is ultimately the one who calls the shots. He stays out of the day to day operations, but is definitely involed if a lot of money is involved.

Why do you think the Sox aren't firing JM or KW?? Money. JR doesn't want to pay two managerial salaries at this point in the season.

I know he wants to win. However, he wants to do it his way so he can show all us fans who the real genius is. Go back to his comments when the Sox clinched in 2000 about the '97 trade. It had his "I'll show you" ego written all over it. Funny how he only comes out to talk when the team is doing well.

This is a guy who stuck with Jerry Krasue and thinks he's a genius for building championship teams. Without getting into too much discussion about basketball, Krause isn't as bright as JR likes to think he is.

So if the White Sox happen to catch lightning in a bottle and win, you'll see JR smug as can be. But that smugness has to wear off because it's taken him 23 years and the team still hasn't won a home playoff game.

But whether he wins or loses, the bottom line is it's going to be JR's way.

Bob

gosox41
05-23-2003, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by doogiec
Between 1960 and 2002, the White Sox have drawn a total of 6,334,000 less fans than the league averages.

This has been consistent throughout several ownership changes and one stadium change. The White Sox were not well supported during the Veeck and Allyn regimes.

Why would anyone want to buy this team anyway? Second class status to the Cubs for years, weak attendance for years?

We need to remember a couple of key points. Reinsdorf owns less than 10% of this team. His selling of that small portion would likely have little effect on the team's operation. If the entire ownership group would choose to sell, why would the new owner keep the team here anyway?

I'd love to see the Sox win sometime in my lifetime too, but lets face it, the idea of a miracle billionaire who is beloved by the masses buying this team is a little far fetched. This team has been seconds away from moving out of town too many times in my lifetime to believe it may not happen again.

JR is managing partner in a Limited Partnership. That means he runs the business. He is solely responsible for any decisions the team makes, either directly or indirectly.

Bob

captain54
05-23-2003, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by steff3603
. And whatever you think you know he is NOT the man with the final word on payroll and personnel issues. There is a board (kind of like the 7 dwarfs in Vanilla Sky :D: ). He is the "public spokesperson". Yes, his thoughts have merit and he does have some weight, but what happens behind closed doors is not ALL his doings. I know it's easy to blame him cause he's the face we see and the name we hear. But he is not the sole owner. The blame needs to be distributed equally.


Well, then if what your saying is true, Reiney is a complete idiot for taking all the heat in this town when he has no final say on payroll and personnel issues....its hard for me to believe he would put himself in that position.....

Reinsdorf is a master at deflecting the blame off of himself.....just surround yourself with minions who will fall on the sword....or distribute the blame between board members.....

I've been following Reinsdorf's reign as Chairman since day one, 1980....no matter what he says, the general consensus is that he is controlling partner, who's responsibilities are day to day decisions concerning all aspects of making the White Sox successful....he answers to the major investors as far as when the franchise is successful and offering a decent return on investment for those involved....

RKMeibalane
05-23-2003, 03:53 PM
Jerry Reinsdorf would have us believe that nothing is his fault. Yet, he is figurehead of the White Sox organization, and as such, has more control over the actions taken by this organization than anyone else. JR may be one of several owners, but he is the one who is most deserving of blame. He has been the owner for twenty three years, and the Sox have three division titles to show for that.

I don't doubt that Reinsdorf wants to win, but he just isn't cut out to be running a professional sports franchise. With him, everything is centered around his being "right" all the time, as opposed to whether the team is actually winning. What JR doesn't realize is that winning should be his primary concern, not something he sets aside whenever it serves his purpose.

It was mentioned elsewhere in this thread that Reinsdorf is big on loyalty. If that's the case, then JR is one of the biggest hypocrites I've ever seen. Case and point: Carlton Fisk, a man who was the Chicago White Sox for more than a decade. What did the Sox do to him? They waited until the team had left for a roadtrip, then they cut him.

Worse, they have done little to make him as though he is welcome in Chicago, and this bothers me. Fisk may have worn his Red Sox cap when entering the HOF, but I think of him as the White Sox catcher before anything else. JR is clueless when it comes to matters such as this. Turning your back on someone who represented your team with pride and dignity is not the right way to treat people. What did Fisk do to deserve any of this?

Robin Ventura is a more recent example. After the 1998 season, the Sox elected not to re-sign him. Again, I can find no reason why Ventura should have been given this treatment, yet he was.

Jerry Reinsdorf lives by double-standards and half-truths. Everything is okay as long as he gets what he wants. What about the fans, Jerry? We are the ones who generate most of the revenue for the franchise every year. Without us, there would be no Chicago White Sox, thus, no money for you.

Jerry Reinsdorf, wake up, or get out!

doogiec
05-23-2003, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
JR is managing partner in a Limited Partnership. That means he runs the business. He is solely responsible for any decisions the team makes, either directly or indirectly.

Bob

You are absolutely correct, on paper. As Managing Partner, he is able to do anything he wants. But he still needs to keep the other partners happy.

Even though he "runs the business", he still has to answer to the owners, just as the president of a corporation answers to shareholders.

A simple example of this is the construction of new Comiskey park. The new park was built for approx $160 million (every penny of public money available). The new "retroparks" cost $260 million and up. Therefore, in order to build a "retropark", he would have needed to either get an addition $100 million from the other partners or sink the team $100 million in debt. No one in their right mind would think he could do either without at least a majority of shareholder support. The same could be said for raising the player payroll $30 or $40 million per year. And if the other 90% of the owners want to cash out and sell the team to out of town interests, there's little he could do about it.

A title is great, but the real power comes from 51% of the partners agreeing with you.

Look at the limited interest in the Expos, the fact that the Angels were on the block for a long time and the difficulty in selling the Marlins. Not too many people want to stick money in baseball teams nowadays, and you have to wonder about the people who do.

The next "Sell Jerry" comment should include the names of local buyers who are interested in the team. Otherwise consider the possibility the next owner will probably move the team.

gosox41
05-23-2003, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by doogiec
You are absolutely correct, on paper. As Managing Partner, he is able to do anything he wants. But he still needs to keep the other partners happy.

Even though he "runs the business", he still has to answer to the owners, just as the president of a corporation answers to shareholders.

A simple example of this is the construction of new Comiskey park. The new park was built for approx $160 million (every penny of public money available). The new "retroparks" cost $260 million and up. Therefore, in order to build a "retropark", he would have needed to either get an addition $100 million from the other partners or sink the team $100 million in debt. No one in their right mind would think he could do either without at least a majority of shareholder support. The same could be said for raising the player payroll $30 or $40 million per year. And if the other 90% of the owners want to cash out and sell the team to out of town interests, there's little he could do about it.

A title is great, but the real power comes from 51% of the partners agreeing with you.

Look at the limited interest in the Expos, the fact that the Angels were on the block for a long time and the difficulty in selling the Marlins. Not too many people want to stick money in baseball teams nowadays, and you have to wonder about the people who do.

The next "Sell Jerry" comment should include the names of local buyers who are interested in the team. Otherwise consider the possibility the next owner will probably move the team.

Let's claify a few things.

1. In a Limited Liability Partnership, a general partner is elected to manage and run the business. Unitl he shows a incompetence for the job, he is the guy running the show. The risk JR takes in order to acheive this power is that if anything major goes wrong with the team financially, JR himself can lose his personal money. The other owners can only lose what they put into the team, hence the "Limited Liability."

As long as JR is the managing partner, it doesn't matter what the other owners think or want (unless they can convince JR to make a move). Legally, they can't do much except for trying to remove him from power, and that entails finding someone to replace him. This is not a democracy where majority rules.

2. This leads me to another point. Who do you think is on the board of this team. This isn't IBM where people like you or me can buy stock and make proposals and try to vote off board members. People on the board are owners in the team. A lot of these board members are personal friends of JR and are very rich as there is a lot of crossover between Bull and White Sox ownership. These guys are very rich, getting to be very old, and aren't about to sell out their buddy JR. I once heard that the dividends the Bulls owners have made have been 5-6 times their initial investment. Do you think after making that kind of money just in dividends that the Bulls owners are going to care about their White Sox investment??

3. I agree with you about baseball teams not being as valuable as they were. The economy has changed both for basbeall and for the country. If I am not mistaken, no baseball team has ever been sold for a loss.

Bob

Nellie_Fox
05-23-2003, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by captain54
....especially in a town where we have the Cubs, the antithesis of the perennial loser.... The "antithesis" is the direct opposite. Ergo, you are saying that the Cubs are the opposite of a perennial loser.

Somehow, the Cubs have been able to play the "loveable loser" angle into success. When they are winning, like now, everybody goes nuts. However, when they are losing, it's cute and cuddly to still support them.

The Sox had taken over Chicago in the fifties. The decisions that were made that killed that advantage are not all Reinsdorf's fault. The Allyns and Veeck let Comiskey deteriorate beyond repair. Veeck traded away young talent for over-the-hill veterans to try to win immediately, leaving the team bereft of personnel afterward.

I don't know how much actual authority he has, but the Sox are a small-market team in a large market. If they were sold, I'd be surprised if it was to anyone who would keep them in Chicago. Why would anyone do the hard work and spend the money it would take to overcome the Cubs' dominance, when they could simply move the team into a market with no competition? I've been through it so many times in my life. Milwaukee, Denver, Seattle, St. Petersburg. The bags have been packed before, and they were never the Cubs' bags.

Daver
05-24-2003, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox


I don't know how much actual authority he has, but the Sox are a small-market team in a large market. If they were sold, I'd be surprised if it was to anyone who would keep them in Chicago.

Any new buyer would almost have to keep the team here,the antitrust exemption would keep them from moving it,there is no way a new owner could get 3/4 of the owners to agree to move the franchise.

Jerry Reinsdorf did a fine job of bluffing the State of Illinois into beleiving he would move the team,with the help of Bud Selig,but the state is guilty of swallowing it hook,line,and sinker.

Nellie_Fox
05-24-2003, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by daver
Any new buyer would almost have to keep the team here,the antitrust exemption would keep them from moving it,there is no way a new owner could get 3/4 of the owners to agree to move the franchise. I'm not at all convinced of that Daver. The owners would look at a move and say "well, it's not like we're abandoning the Chicago market. They will be left with a successful, popular franchise. And, we will be meeting the needs of a new market in the bargain."

What argument is there to be made against moving the Sox?

Daver
05-24-2003, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox


What argument is there to be made against moving the Sox?

Simple economics.The Sox are in the third largest baseball market,there is no way you move this team when you have a team like Montreal that does not even have a TV deal.

Bud Selig is not exacly a choir boy,but he does know how to protect the bottom line,where the hell would bottum feeders like Jeff Loria be without him.

Nellie_Fox
05-24-2003, 01:17 AM
Originally posted by daver
Simple economics.The Sox are in the third largest baseball market,there is no way you move this team when you have a team like Montreal that does not even have a TV deal. If they find a buyer for Montreal who wants to move them, they're gone. And I am afraid that if the Sox were sold to a buyer who wanted to move them, it would be difficult to muster a convincing argument against it. I really don't think there would be much of a fight put up by owners.

Daver
05-24-2003, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
If they find a buyer for Montreal who wants to move them, they're gone. And I am afraid that if the Sox were sold to a buyer who wanted to move them, it would be difficult to muster a convincing argument against it. I really don't think there would be much of a fight put up by owners.

Move them where?


The owners would put up a fight for one simple reason,they would rather collect a franchise fee for a new team opposed to settling for moving a team.This game really needs an automous commisioner.

Nellie_Fox
05-24-2003, 01:38 AM
Originally posted by daver
Move them where?Mexico City? San Juan? Las Vegas? Charlotte?


This game really needs an automous commisioner. It sure does, and it will never see one again.

doogiec
05-24-2003, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
Let's claify a few things.

1. In a Limited Liability Partnership, a general partner is elected to manage and run the business. Unitl he shows a incompetence for the job, he is the guy running the show. The risk JR takes in order to acheive this power is that if anything major goes wrong with the team financially, JR himself can lose his personal money. The other owners can only lose what they put into the team, hence the "Limited Liability."

As long as JR is the managing partner, it doesn't matter what the other owners think or want (unless they can convince JR to make a move). Legally, they can't do much except for trying to remove him from power, and that entails finding someone to replace him. This is not a democracy where majority rules.

2. This leads me to another point. Who do you think is on the board of this team. This isn't IBM where people like you or me can buy stock and make proposals and try to vote off board members. People on the board are owners in the team. A lot of these board members are personal friends of JR and are very rich as there is a lot of crossover between Bull and White Sox ownership. These guys are very rich, getting to be very old, and aren't about to sell out their buddy JR. I once heard that the dividends the Bulls owners have made have been 5-6 times their initial investment. Do you think after making that kind of money just in dividends that the Bulls owners are going to care about their White Sox investment??

3. I agree with you about baseball teams not being as valuable as they were. The economy has changed both for basbeall and for the country. If I am not mistaken, no baseball team has ever been sold for a loss.

Bob

We're really just arguing the difference between the technical legal definition of a limited partnership and the managerial reality that anyone hoping to run a successful business needs to have his fellow owners and employees all rowing the boat in the same direction. That requires compromise and flat out giving in to the wishes of others on a fairly regular basis. That's why its called a limited "partnership", not a limited "dictatorship".

While I agree that no team has really been sold for a loss in recent history, there have been some sales where the owners of the team would have earned a better return putting their money in a simple SP500 index fund. And while Disney got more than they paid for the Angels, you have to consider that they put $100 million of their own money into recent stadium renovations that they did not get back, so bottom line is they probably lost money at the end of the day.

Also, while I know Reinsdorf tends to turn off fans, recognize that the White Sox signed a long lease extension as part of the naming rights deal, and that will make moving the team more difficult and expensive to whoever buys the team. By doing that, this ownership group showed more loyalty to the Chicago market than Veeck or Allyn ever had.

TornLabrum
05-24-2003, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by steff3603
I've had the pleasure, yes pleasure, of meeting and talking with Jerry at length several times. You guys.. he wants a WS more than you can imagine. And whatever you think you know he is NOT the man with the final word on payroll and personnel issues. There is a board (kind of like the 7 dwarfs in Vanilla Sky :D: ). He is the "public spokesperson". Yes, his thoughts have merit and he does have some weight, but what happens behind closed doors is not ALL his doings. I know it's easy to blame him cause he's the face we see and the name we hear. But he is not the sole owner. The blame needs to be distributed equally.

Hence the reports last week that one of the Sox ownership group stated that if it looks like this club is going nowhere by the All-Star break (or sooner, I forget), "payroll will be cut."

TornLabrum
05-24-2003, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
So the Sox are Beauracratizing themselves into Extinction?
I wish someone on that committee could see the writing on the wall

The Sox have always had a board of directors, going back to the days when Grace Comiskey owned them. They are responsible for the actual operations of the club in terms of setting policy, etc. You can bet that when The Chairman says in a few weeks that payroll will have to be slashed, it will be on the directive of the board of directors.

joecrede
05-24-2003, 12:08 PM
Points to consider:

1.) When JR does sell the Sox it will probably be as part of a package that includes the Bulls and his 1/2 of the United Center. I remember a few years ago reading that JR testified in the wrongful death trial of his personal assistant, Sherry Berto against some doctor, that he had been offered 500 million for the package and declined it (JR promised her a percentage of the sale.)

2.) I'd argue that the White Sox in Chicago would be much more attractive to a perspective buyer than the White Sox in one of the cities currently without a baseball team. The Sox get $30M(!)+ from local television. That's a hell of a lot.

All the new owner has to do is solve the issue of getting more people into the park. Don't kid yourself, he'd have to do that too in one of these "new" markets once the novelty of a new team/stadium wore off (Indians come to mind? Speaking of which, I predict it will be a LONG time before we see The Jake packed again now that LeBron has hit town, not too mention if the Browns continue to improve.) -- but he wouldn't have anywhere near the $30M safety blanket the Chicago television market provides.

3.) I don't see the Sox moving with a Daley in office. Richie could probably get a buyer lined up with one phone call.

Lip Man 1
05-24-2003, 12:22 PM
For what it's worth:

Weighing in on the Sox "moving" discussion.

It's ALWAYS possible the Sox will be jerked out of Chicago but I think it also has to be considered how soon it would be before the American League puts an expansion team back in or another team is moved here (i.e. when Charlie Finley was ready to put the A's here as soon as the Sox were moved to Seattle)

The American League, in my opinion, is not just going to hand over the 3rd largest market in the U.S. hook, line and sinker to the National League.

They already made one major mistake allowing the D-backs to go to the N.L. and keeping the soon to be deceased Tampa Bay market, I don't think they'll make the same mistake again. Ditto for letting the N.L. go to the large Denver market.

Personally if current ownership never intends to sell, I'd welcome the chance to start over with new blood.

and I don't apologize if that pisses off Nellie (who I respect because he was a cop and for his baseball knowledge) since I don't seen any real future remaining for this team anyway under current ownership (especially if God help us the Cubs somehow get to the series before the Sox)

Lip

captain54
05-24-2003, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
The "antithesis" is the direct opposite. Ergo, you are saying that the Cubs are the opposite of a perennial loser.

you're right, I stand corrected...thanks for pointing it out

Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
The Sox had taken over Chicago in the fifties. The decisions that were made that killed that advantage are not all Reinsdorf's fault..

from what I recall, the Sox had some pretty damn good teams in the sixties also, while the Cubs sucked waz....we can't blame Reinsdorf for killing that advantage cause he wasnt around, but for me the beginning of the end for this franchise was the hiring of Hawk Harrelson and the firing of Tony LaRussa...Harrelson was Reinsdorf's idea....



Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
I don't know how much actual authority he has, but the Sox are a small-market team in a large market.

and how did that happen?? it clearly wasn't always the case....

the hypocrisy and lies of Reinsdorf & Co. has worn thin with the Chicago fans....hopefully this public relations nightmare will end soon and we will all be put out of our misery....

Dadawg_77
05-24-2003, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by doogiec

While I agree that no team has really been sold for a loss in recent history, there have been some sales where the owners of the team would have earned a better return putting their money in a simple SP500 index fund. And while Disney got more than they paid for the Angels, you have to consider that they put $100 million of their own money into recent stadium renovations that they did not get back, so bottom line is they probably lost money at the end of the day.


You forgetting to take the tax benefit into fact. Owning a pro sport franchise for the first five years is a major tax break, after five you lost it. Thats why Fox, Disney, AOL want out now, their five years are done, the media right for the team are taken care of so it becomes time to move on.

gosox41
05-24-2003, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by doogiec
We're really just arguing the difference between the technical legal definition of a limited partnership and the managerial reality that anyone hoping to run a successful business needs to have his fellow owners and employees all rowing the boat in the same direction. That requires compromise and flat out giving in to the wishes of others on a fairly regular basis. That's why its called a limited "partnership", not a limited "dictatorship".

While I agree that no team has really been sold for a loss in recent history, there have been some sales where the owners of the team would have earned a better return putting their money in a simple SP500 index fund. And while Disney got more than they paid for the Angels, you have to consider that they put $100 million of their own money into recent stadium renovations that they did not get back, so bottom line is they probably lost money at the end of the day.

Also, while I know Reinsdorf tends to turn off fans, recognize that the White Sox signed a long lease extension as part of the naming rights deal, and that will make moving the team more difficult and expensive to whoever buys the team. By doing that, this ownership group showed more loyalty to the Chicago market than Veeck or Allyn ever had.


I've been involved in a couple of limited partnerships. Sure the partners may have goals they want the business to acheive, but ultimately it is the general partner who is calling the shots. When a tough decision is to be made, it's the general partner that has to decide tbe best option. Some limited partnerships want more input from the owners, but ultimately if things go really bad, the general partner is the one who can lose all his personal assets and has the power to do what he wants.

In the Sox case, I'm sure all the owners want to win a World Series. There are many different ways to acheive it, though. From what I hear, JR takes zero input from anyone and does what he thinks is best.

Bob

Hangar18
05-24-2003, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
....... or another team is moved here (i.e. when Charlie Finley was ready to put the A's here as soon as the Sox were moved to Seattle)

The American League, in my opinion, is not just going to hand over the 3rd largest market in the U.S. hook, line and sinker to the National League.

They already made one major mistake allowing the D-backs to go to the N.L. and keeping to soon to be deceased Tampa Bay market, I don't think they'll make the same mistake again. Ditto for letting the N.L. go to the large Denver market.

Personally if current ownership never intends to sell, I'd welcome the chance to start over with new blood.

and I don't apologize if that pisses off Nellie (who I respect because he was a cop and for his baseball knowledge) since I don't seen any real future remaining for this team anyway under current ownership (especially if God help us the Cubs somehow get to the series before the Sox)

Lip
Man, can you see if we wouldve had all those Good A's Teams from the 1990's HERE?? That would mean Billy Beane wouldve been our GM now. Lip, when you say "THEY Made a Mistake" you Probably CLEARLY mean that Buffoon Bud Selig. That was his call, because he was looking for ANY excuse to Martyr his team and move the Brewers to the National League.
as far as the "american" lleague handing over a Market, I dont know that Bud allows that line of thinking anymore. as Daver pointed out to me before, SELIG folded the two Offices of the leagues. Were only American League in name now, and MLB is trying to go for an NBA "Look" now, with "conferences" but thats it. the teams all play each other with some regularity. IF we left if up to BUD, he'd have the MLB divided up by East and West, like the NBA. the Sox and CUbs would be in the same division.