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View Full Version : How much longer can we make excuses for Jose?


FarmerAndy
05-22-2003, 11:23 AM
He almost cost us the game again last night with a bad throw. Thank God Konerko got that tag down.

People cut this guy way too much slack. We get on every other player, but when Jose screws up all I hear is "He makes mistakes because he's trying so hard to help the team." Yeah, that's nice . The guy always goes out of his way to get balls that are way out of range so he can make a rushed throw into the visitors dugout, but then we are suppossed to give him credit for having such great range?

I'm sorry, I know everybody loves Jose. It's hard not to like his attitude, because he's got the best attitude this clubhouse has seen in a long time. But Huey Lewis once said that "sometimes bad is bad", and Jose is just plain bad. He is worse than he has ever been at shortstop, and his bat isn't making up for it either.

Grab some bench Jose.

(P.S. I apologize for quoting Huey Lewis. I didn't mean to, it just happened.

RKMeibalane
05-22-2003, 11:32 AM
I understand and agree with your feelings about Jose; however, the problem the Sox face is this: there is no one else who can play shortstop on a regular basis. Valentin is the best they've got.

Jimenez is a natural shortstop, but moving him over means that Graffanino has to play second base. This doesn't work for the Sox right now, because Crede is struggling. Tony is needed at third, so there's no reason to move anyone else around.

:jerry

"What's that you said about moving D'Angelo to short? I like that idea."

Hangar18
05-22-2003, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
He almost cost us the game again last night with a bad throw. Thank God Konerko got that tag down.

But Huey Lewis once said that "sometimes bad is bad", and Jose is just plain bad. He is worse than he has ever been at shortstop, and his bat isn't making up for it either.

Grab some bench Jose.

(P.S. I apologize for quoting Huey Lewis. I didn't mean to, it just happened.

Maybe we just have to Go Back In Time ....

LuvSox
05-22-2003, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Maybe we just have to Go Back In Time ....

Cone on guys, be good Sports. Maybe Jose just needs a Couple Days Off.

WhiteSoxWinner
05-22-2003, 12:37 PM
Maybe we'll just keep on dreamin', We're livin' in a perfect world.

Iwritecode
05-22-2003, 12:42 PM
The only thing I can say is that at least his throw was there in time. The runner probably would have beat the throw of a few other shortstops...

Hangar18
05-22-2003, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
He almost cost us the game again last night with a bad throw.

(P.S. I apologize for quoting Huey Lewis. I didn't mean to, it just happened.

Jose's got .......Heart & Soul

Hangar18
05-22-2003, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
The only thing I can say is that at least his throw was there in time. The runner probably would have beat the throw of a few other shortstops...

Maybe Valentin needs a new drug

hold2dibber
05-22-2003, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
He almost cost us the game again last night with a bad throw. Thank God Konerko got that tag down.

People cut this guy way too much slack. We get on every other player, but when Jose screws up all I hear is "He makes mistakes because he's trying so hard to help the team." Yeah, that's nice . The guy always goes out of his way to get balls that are way out of range so he can make a rushed throw into the visitors dugout, but then we are suppossed to give him credit for having such great range?

I'm sorry, I know everybody loves Jose. It's hard not to like his attitude, because he's got the best attitude this clubhouse has seen in a long time. But Huey Lewis once said that "sometimes bad is bad", and Jose is just plain bad. He is worse than he has ever been at shortstop, and his bat isn't making up for it either.

Grab some bench Jose.

(P.S. I apologize for quoting Huey Lewis. I didn't mean to, it just happened.

First off, I disagree with your assesment of the play last night. Jose not only had the range to get to that ball pretty quickly, but the arm strength to get it to first in time. The throw was not accurate (and thank goodness PK made the nice play he made), but a LOT of other SSs either don't get to the ball, or don't have the cannon Jose has to get it over to 1st in time to get the guy.

In any event, I don't think Jose will be with the team that much longer. If the Sox are out of it at the trading deadline, I would guess he'd be dealt to a team in need of some left handed pop. Otherwise, he'll likely be let go at the end of the year, with the Sox moving Jimenez to SS and giving Miles and Harris a shot at 2B next year. That would allow the Sox to save money to sign Colon or some other starting pitcher.

Hangar18
05-22-2003, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
First off, I disagree with your assesment of the play last night. Jose not only had the range to get to that ball pretty quickly, but the arm strength to get it to first in time. The throw was not accurate (and thank goodness PK made the nice play he made), but a LOT of other SSs either don't get to the ball, or don't have the cannon Jose has to get it over to 1st in time to get the guy.

In any event, I don't think Jose will be with the team that much longer. If the Sox are out of it at the trading deadline, I would guess he'd be dealt to a team in need of some left handed pop. Otherwise, he'll likely be let go at the end of the year, with the Sox moving Jimenez to SS and giving Miles and Harris a shot at 2B next year. That would allow the Sox to save money to sign Colon or some other starting pitcher.

Hmmm, maybe the White Sox think out of the "box" for once, and try to sign him for a little less money. Too bad they didnt apply this with Ray Durham, who I, and this teams offense miss More and MOre as each day passes. Makes me mad when I hear ESPN praising the SF GIANTS for an "Excellent move picking up an all star caliber second baseman with pop in his bat and speed to burn. Those kinds of guys are rare these days" Nice job KW
for the Record: IT IS THE SOX STUPIDITY THAT DURHAM IS A GIANT, AND NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY KIND OF BRAINS ON THE GIANTS IN ACQUIRING HIM. ANyone can sign a check.

moochpuppy
05-22-2003, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Maybe Valentin needs a new drug

At least Jose is workin for a livin.

WhiteSoxWinner
05-22-2003, 01:13 PM
Awwwww, Jose, I'm Just Happy to be Stuck With You.

moochpuppy
05-22-2003, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
Awwwww, Jose, I'm Just Happy to be Stuck With You.

Maybe Jose needs to spend more time with Manuel since he knows it's hip to be square.

Foulke You
05-22-2003, 01:34 PM
Valentin's arm is erratic but strong and he has more range than Royce. No way Royce makes that play last year. First, Royce would have been playing up the middle and secondly, while the throw wouldn't have pulled Paulie off the bag, it wouldn't have gotten there in time to nail the runner. Jose is a gamer and a great guy to have on the team. The positives still outweigh the negatives in my opinion.

34 Inch Stick
05-22-2003, 02:13 PM
You are all a bunch of American Psychos (not a HL song but he got a lot of mention).

Procol Harum
05-22-2003, 02:29 PM
:manos
"If this is it, please let me know..."

FarmerAndy
05-22-2003, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
Valentin's arm is erratic but strong and he has more range than Royce. The positives still outweigh the negatives in my opinion.

Good range and a strong arm don't amount to much if you can't hit the target.

Man, Jose has really put spell on people. I can't think of any other player that could hit .235 with an on-base % barely over .300, have a miserable .951 fielding %, and still have people say that the positives outweigh the negatives. It must be something in his mustache.


The Royce comparisons aren't valid anymore either. Royce is long gone. Jose needs to be held accountable for his own bad play. There is no Royce. There is just Jose, and Jose isn't good enough.

I wish Jose would've left town with Royce, they'd be "Cruisin' Together."

RKMeibalane
05-22-2003, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
I wish Jose would've left town with Royce, they'd be "Cruisin' Together."

:hitless

(singing) "I love it when we're cruisin' together."

:hurt

"Royce, for the last time, shut up!"

MHOUSE
05-22-2003, 02:55 PM
Royce would not have gotten to that ball or gotten the throw into the vicinity of first base in time. I wish we had a better shortstop from a defensive standpoint and could DH Jose for his LH bat, but Jose is the best we have. I hate having to wince everytime I see him rear back to gun one and I can see it starting to sale out of his hand. He's not going to be around much long and plus he's got heart and leads this team.

Foulke You
05-22-2003, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
Good range and a strong arm don't amount to much if you can't hit the target.

Man, Jose has really put spell on people. I can't think of any other player that could hit .235 with an on-base % barely over .300, have a miserable .951 fielding %, and still have people say that the positives outweigh the negatives. It must be something in his mustache.


The Royce comparisons aren't valid anymore either. Royce is long gone. Jose needs to be held accountable for his own bad play. There is no Royce. There is just Jose, and Jose isn't good enough.

I wish Jose would've left town with Royce, they'd be "Cruisin' Together."

It has nothing to do with a "spell" put over me. I've seen almost every Sox game Jose has played in since he arrived in 2000. The one thing that I can definitely say about Jose is that he has won more games for us than he ever lost for us. The guy is flat out clutch with the bat. Jose rarely gets meaningless HRs or RBIs. He is there when you need the big hit which is something our team struggles with mightily. I think his recent fielding gaffe in Minnesota has clouded your memory on how important this guy was to the 2000 Division Title and how important he still is to the team. I also wouldn't call last night's play a routine grounder like you seem to be making it out to be. That was a tough play in the hole that a lot of shortstops would have had trouble making. Jose's only play was at first so he turned, pivoted, and fired as hard as he could at 1B to nail the runner. With a nice tag by Paulie, the play was made. so stop your complaining! We won! I've never seen a player get ripped on so much for his poor defense costing the team but at the same time not getting any credit for 3 years of clutch hitting and a huge list of intangibles that he brings to the table.

FarmerAndy
05-22-2003, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
It has nothing to do with a "spell" put over me. I've seen almost every Sox game Jose has played in since he arrived in 2000. The one thing that I can definitely say about Jose is that he has won more games for us than he ever lost for us. The guy is flat out clutch with the bat. Jose rarely gets meaningless HRs or RBIs. He is there when you need the big hit which is something our team struggles with mightily. I think his recent fielding gaffe in Minnesota has clouded your memory on how important this guy was to the 2000 Division Title and how important he still is to the team. I also wouldn't call last night's play a routine grounder like you seem to be making it out to be. That was a tough play in the hole that a lot of shortstops would have had trouble making. Jose's only play was at first so he turned, pivoted, and fired as hard as he could at 1B to nail the runner. With a nice tag by Paulie, the play was made. so stop your complaining! We won! I've never seen a player get ripped on so much for his poor defense costing the team but at the same time not getting any credit for 3 years of clutch hitting and a huge list of intangibles that he brings to the table.

1. My memory of how much he meant to the 2000 team isn't clouded. My memory of 2000 is just that, it's a MEMORY. 2000 is gone, it's 2003.

2. I never said that last night's play was routine. And my complaints go way deeper than last night. Last night doesn't bother me too much, we won. What bothers me is that Jose keeps getting worse out there.

3. I've always given him credit in the past for his clutch hitting. I even said when I started this thread that Jose has the best attitude on the team. I always give credit where it is due. But just because you really like a player doesn't mean you can just put the blinders on. This years Jose is as bad as ever at shortstop, and unlike the past few years, his bat isn't making up for it. His cheerleading skills just aren't enough for me right now. His fielding may be a lost cause, but he needs to get his bat going again.

4. I like Jose. I just think that everybody needs to be held acountable for their own bad play, and it irks me a little that Jose seems to always have a free pass. Every time he screws up, all I hear is "It's o.k. because Jose is the leader. It's o.k. because Jose's errors don't hurt because he has heart. It's o.k. that he threw the ball away because some other shortstops might not have even made it to that ball."

Bad is bad, Jose would probably be the first to tell you that. I don't hear him making excuses, so I doubt he needs everybody else doing it for him.

P.S. You need to end posts with H.L. quotes, I think it's a rule on this thread now.

WhiteSox = Life
05-22-2003, 04:59 PM
All I have to say is that I think Jose brings the right attitude to the team, but his positive attitude and team leadership has not done very much good for the team. Therefore, he needs to pick it up in other aspects of his game.

Jose is going to make errors, some because of mechanics and some because of aggressive plays. Those can be overlooked (to an extent), so to speak, if he can pick up his game offensively. He hasn't done that consistently so far this season, however.

Jose is a fiery player and I hope he starts playing like we have seen him able to do.

Originally posted by FarmerAndy
P.S. You need to end posts with H.L. quotes, I think it's a rule on this thread now.

Uh, okay...

"Great balls of fire!" ... Wait, that's Jerry Lee Lewis.

Um...

"This diamond ring doesn't shine for me anymore!" ... No, that's Gary Lewis and the Playboys.

Er...

"Share Our Wealth" ... Oh, that's Huey Long.

Ah, whatever.

FarmerAndy
05-22-2003, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSox = Life
All I have to say is that I think Jose brings the right attitude to the team, but his positive attitude and team leadership has not done very much good for the team. Therefore, he needs to pick it up in other aspects of his game.

Jose is going to make errors, some because of mechanics and some because of aggressive plays. Those can be overlooked (to an extent), so to speak, if he can pick up his game offensively. He hasn't done that consistently so far this season, however.

Jose is a fiery player and I hope he starts playing like we have seen him able to do.



Good post. I agree 100%

My only point had been that I'm tired of all of the excuses for Jose. I think some folks take it personally. Jose's leadership is great, he just needs to start doing things in the game that he's done for us in the past. I hope he does. You can only cut a guy so much slack before he needs to start putting up.

Foulke You
05-22-2003, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
Good post. I agree 100%

My only point had been that I'm tired of all of the excuses for Jose. I think some folks take it personally. Jose's leadership is great, he just needs to start doing things in the game that he's done for us in the past. I hope he does. You can only cut a guy so much slack before he needs to start putting up.

I don't disagree with the points you've made about Valentin. He hasn't played up to his level so far this year but then again, not many on this '03 squad has. I wanted to strangle him on that throw in Minnesota on Sunday but of course, if it wasn't for his 2 run dinger earlier in the game we wouldn't have been in position to win anyways. I'd also like to point out that Jose wasn't a 1 year wonder. He put up great numbers in '01 and '02 despite being moved all over the field and dealing with nagging injuries that most players would prefer to sit out with. So while those are indeed memories you have to remember that players that have a history of success, particularly with the Sox should be cut a little slack. Same thing goes for guys like Konerko, Lee, and Thomas. I only took a little exception to some of the comments because there was a mention in this thread that someone would be pleased if Valentin left town along with Royce. To me, that sounded like he was being compared to that bag of garbage named Royce Clayton so yeah, I had to defend Jose Valentin since he is one of my favorites. We need Jose to win and if we do, you can guarantee that he will be a big part of that. I think he'll come around this season. He's done nothing in his previous 3 years here to prove to me otherwise.

FarmerAndy
05-22-2003, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
I only took a little exception to some of the comments because there was a mention in this thread that someone would be pleased if Valentin left town along with Royce.


Yeah, but I had to set up the "Cruisin' Together" quote somehow. :D:

wassagstdu
05-22-2003, 07:55 PM
I didn't see last night's final play, but it sounded on the radio like a game SAVER. Valentin is the only player on this team that I would pay to watch and would hate to see go.

soxruleEP
05-23-2003, 03:44 PM
Enjoying the cleavor Lewis comments--

However, this Valentin defense stuff drives me insane.

No he is not Garciaparra or A-Rod [obviously] but the crap I heard talked on the radio about how he "costs the team 15 games a year with his defense" is nuts.

Bill james did a study a few years ago to establish what a great shortstop does for his team to quiet the crap atalked about Ozzie Smith "saving his team a 100 runs a year." james showed that Ozzie Smith--one of the greatest fielding shortstops ever--made a difference of under 15 RUNS a year.

Does Valentin drive us nuts in the field? Yes, but he gets to balls and can make throws that al ot of shortstops can't.

What are our alternatives? We really have none. Does that mean we shouldn't kvetch about his misplays? No, but I wish people would actually think about the truth of what they are saying. Our defense in the outfield has killed us this year--Daubach has cost us three games all by himself. But that's not his fault--he is forced to play out of position by Manuel, who himself doesn't have a lot of options.

Maybe Brochard being called up will help. He has to be better than Rios was Wednesday night.

BTW--will someone please tell the idiots on the SCR that the boos were for Rios's failing to catch another bloop hit, not Buerhle.

WhiteSox = Life
05-23-2003, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by soxruleEP
... kvetch...

Word of the Day!

:D:

Seriously, though, the Sox are kind of limited in their options. You have Tony Graffanino, super-utility man for the infield, but you don't have somebody for the outfield. Rios is barely competent (some would say he's not even that) and Daubach is brutal. Maybe Borchard will give Manuel a better opportunity for substituting.

Even then, though, with an outfield of (pick three) Ordonez, Borchard, Rios, Lee, Daubach, you don't have a very good territory-covering team. A couple pretty good arms and some with good speed, but none close to the OF defense of say, an Ichiro or a Hunter.

In fact, you know how there's so much specialization in baseball now? For lefty-lefty matchups, righty-righty matchups for both pinch-hitting and relief pitching, and, not to mention, mop-up, middle relief, set-up and closer? Well, why doesn't somebody, a coach or farm system developer, cultivate kids that can play any OF or IF position?

Sure, the player may not be as great in one position as he is in another, but if he can play each position competently, he's always going to have playing time and would be an ultra-utility man.

In my opinion, this is a brilliant stroke of genius. In reality, it's probably infeasible. Just a thought, though.

:)

PaleHoseGeorge
05-23-2003, 06:55 PM
We're definitely weak at shortstop, and we're definitely weak in the #2 hole, too. However I don't see where complaining about either of these problems ought to take precedent over the anemic middle of the order, the horrible situation in CF, the underachieving rotation (and bullpen), or the focus on the bottom line--rather than the W-L record--of team ownership.

Valentin batting lefty is clearly superior to Graffanino batting right. He is superior to Graffy with the glove, too. Either of them gets the job done better than Clayton would have last year, and are doing it without making bald-faced lies to the media about how "lots of guys" would get released for not wearing the necessary footwear during baseball games.

So sure, pile on Valentin all you want. Most of us have bigger fish to fry.