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MHOUSE
05-22-2003, 12:30 AM
Jerry Manuel gave Rick White a vote of confidence in the "Sox Notes" section on whitesox.com. Hopefully this is a dreaded vote and he is released, but otherwise there is no reason to think this guy will be good.

14 games 19 IP 19ER 29 hits 6HR 10BB 16 K OBA .341 WHIP 2.05

Why is he still on this team? Matt Ginter CANNOT do worse than this guy. Just because he was 3-1 and had a 0.82 ERA in 20 GAMES for the Cardinals last year, doesn't make him a good reliever now. If he's so good then why didn't St. Louie resign him and why did all the other teams pass? At least Flash has a few good outings between meltdowns and a decent ERA. White flat cannot get batters out. What's he doing on the mound for a "contender"? Stop saying he's going to get dialed in and be a strength. Our bullpen has turned it around, but he hasn't. Period.

Writer: "Rick White’s season-long troubles continued Monday night, when the White Sox reliever was touched for five runs on five hits in 1 2/3 innings pitched. White threw 56 pitches and went to a three-ball count on six different batters -- with four reaching base."

Wow that is just awful. 1.2 IP and you throw 56 pitches? Jesus. 5 earned? How can we stay in the game when not only our starter gets rocked, but then the next guy just adds fuel to the fire. We're giving away possibly winnable games because of this chump.

Jerry: "It appears very bad right now," Manuel said of White. "Every time we go to him, not only are we behind but they extend the lead and it looks a lot worse."

Hmmm...we got to him and they extend the lead. Wouldn't you say the fact he gives up the runs could be a prime reason this happens? I think so. One of the reasons Buehrle has amassed 7 losses is that often it's White's turn out of the 'pen to mop-up and he piles 2-3 (or even 5!) more runs on what could be a surmountable 3-4 run deficit. He puts games out of reach. He has a 9.00 ERA for chrissakes! You're guartanteed a run if you go to him for an inning. Over his career he has a 27-39 record and a 4.15 ERA. Nothing spectacular, but not terrible. Aside from his 20 games with St. Louis, this guy was a very average reliever and last year had a 6.20 ERA with Colorado and a 4.31 ERA elsewhere. Why stick with him after this showing at the late (and plump) ol' age of 34?

Just cut his butt and call up Matt Ginter. Is it really that difficult?

Sox Notes (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20030520&content_id=329661&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp)

Stats (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=5186&context=pitching)

jeremyb1
05-22-2003, 01:19 AM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
Jerry Manuel gave Rick White a vote of confidence in the "Sox Notes" section on whitesox.com. Hopefully this is a dreaded vote and he is released, but otherwise there is no reason to think this guy will be good.

14 games 19 IP 19ER 29 hits 6HR 10BB 16 K OBA .341 WHIP 2.05

Why is he still on this team? Matt Ginter CANNOT do worse than this guy. Just because he was 3-1 and had a 0.82 ERA in 20 GAMES for the Cardinals last year, doesn't make him a good reliever now. If he's so good then why didn't St. Louie resign him and why did all the other teams pass? At least Flash has a few good outings between meltdowns and a decent ERA. White flat cannot get batters out. What's he doing on the mound for a "contender"? Stop saying he's going to get dialed in and be a strength. Our bullpen has turned it around, but he hasn't. Period.

Writer: "Rick White’s season-long troubles continued Monday night, when the White Sox reliever was touched for five runs on five hits in 1 2/3 innings pitched. White threw 56 pitches and went to a three-ball count on six different batters -- with four reaching base."

Wow that is just awful. 1.2 IP and you throw 56 pitches? Jesus. 5 earned? How can we stay in the game when not only our starter gets rocked, but then the next guy just adds fuel to the fire. We're giving away possibly winnable games because of this chump.

Jerry: "It appears very bad right now," Manuel said of White. "Every time we go to him, not only are we behind but they extend the lead and it looks a lot worse."

Hmmm...we got to him and they extend the lead. Wouldn't you say the fact he gives up the runs could be a prime reason this happens? I think so. One of the reasons Buehrle has amassed 7 losses is that often it's White's turn out of the 'pen to mop-up and he piles 2-3 (or even 5!) more runs on what could be a surmountable 3-4 run deficit. He puts games out of reach. He has a 9.00 ERA for chrissakes! You're guartanteed a run if you go to him for an inning. Over his career he has a 27-39 record and a 4.15 ERA. Nothing spectacular, but not terrible. Aside from his 20 games with St. Louis, this guy was a very average reliever and last year had a 6.20 ERA with Colorado and a 4.31 ERA elsewhere. Why stick with him after this showing at the late (and plump) ol' age of 34?

Just cut his butt and call up Matt Ginter. Is it really that difficult?

Sox Notes (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20030520&content_id=329661&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp)

Stats (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=5186&context=pitching)

releasing a pitching making 750,000 when jerry reinsdorf is your boss is very difficult i would imagine.

Tragg
05-22-2003, 08:24 AM
If I didn't know better, the insistence on using rick white smells of Kenny Williams interference - sort of like we saw when manuel stuck in parque off of a 1+ year layoff into a game in Anaheim last year in an incredibly pressure situation (which he blew and we lost); or the insistence of sticking clayton out there for 2 years game after game and rarely pinch hitting for him, UNTIL apparently kenny gave the word and then he was on the bench virtually for the rest of the season.

The investment in this guy in a monetary sense is minimal and to suggest that the stats are deceptive because he doesn't squander leads - he only allows opponents' leads to get worse - is completely ridiculous. That is the job of the middle reliever - to keep you in the game so that if the offense gets going you can still win it.

MHOUSE
05-22-2003, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
If I didn't know better, the insistence on using rick white smells of Kenny Williams interference - sort of like we saw when manuel stuck in parque off of a 1+ year layoff into a game in Anaheim last year in an incredibly pressure situation (which he blew and we lost); or the insistence of sticking clayton out there for 2 years game after game and rarely pinch hitting for him, UNTIL apparently kenny gave the word and then he was on the bench virtually for the rest of the season.

The investment in this guy in a monetary sense is minimal and to suggest that the stats are deceptive because he doesn't squander leads - he only allows opponents' leads to get worse - is completely ridiculous. That is the job of the middle reliever - to keep you in the game so that if the offense gets going you can still win it.

Very good insight. With all the rumours of KW trying to run the team, maybe he is forcing JM to use the guys he has acquired to make them look good or worthwhile. That's bogus and this guy needs to grow up and accept that he makes mistakes. What type of manager would Jerry be if KW had no influence?

lowesox
05-22-2003, 08:55 PM
You know what, I'm still not ready to give up on White. It wasn't just last season with the Cards that he was good. He's been very dependable for most of his career. He's really the only guy in the pen who's really off right now, so he's a good candidate for mop-up situations.

Flash has really turned it around, maybe White will two. Lets let him have two more outings and see what he does with them before we start calling for his release. Apparently, he's working really hard to get out of this slump, and as a fan I appreciate that.

fquaye149
05-22-2003, 09:19 PM
gosh i wouldn't like to play on a ballclub that you guys coached...not much room for error here. come on...it's a 162 game season. we're about a quarter of the way through the season, and the guy hasn't even appeared in 15 games yet...jumping all over him and screaming for his throat is like betting the farm that loaiza wins the cy young...

RKMeibalane
05-22-2003, 11:02 PM
This situation has Ken Williams' finger-prints all over it. The fact that Manuel is aware of how poorly White has pitched and seems to dread using him suggests that Williams is the reason why White is still on the team. If that is the case, then this is nothing new. KW frequently interferes in matters pretaining to the everyday functions of the ballclub. He did this last season when he became involved in the Thomas-Konerko situation.

It has been suggested by PHG that Williams is also the driving force behind Manuel's constant "tinkering." Because KW wants Jerry to give his accquisitions playing time, he gives him specific orders on who to play and where. If this is true, then Williams needs to be fired immediately.

Tragg
05-22-2003, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
What type of manager would Jerry be if KW had no influence?

Well, I think Manuel has his plusses and minuses as a manger and, in total, I am unsure whether I'd fire him.
But, I do know that he took a pretty much rag tag team (Herb Perry, Baldwin, a patched up Eldred, Billy Bob Simas, Singleton - it's hard to believe, really) and won a division - easily - which is more than his boss has ever done.

MHOUSE
05-22-2003, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
Well, I think Manuel has his plusses and minuses as a manger and, in total, I am unsure whether I'd fire him.
But, I do know that he took a pretty much rag tag team (Herb Perry, Baldwin, a patched up Eldred, Billy Bob Simas, Singleton - it's hard to believe, really) and won a division - easily - which is more than his boss has ever done.

It also helped that his rag tag bunch all had career years for the most part in 2000. What have you done for me lately JM? Over 6 years he's barely .500 IIRC.

Tragg
05-22-2003, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
It also helped that his rag tag bunch all had career years for the most part in 2000. What have you done for me lately JM? Over 6 years he's barely .500 IIRC.

Herb Perry certainly did; Baldwin certainly did. Sirotka did, but that was a natural progression for an improving young pitcher. The rest that meant anything were pretty good players anyway, and still are.
KW screwed manuel over when he brought that jackal royce clayton onto the team. The 2000 team simply looked like a baseball team - the 2001 team looked like they never went to spring training. IN addition, the clayton move introduced a third hole in the lineup, to accompany singleton and alomar. That move, more than any other, took us to a .500 team. And we haven't recovered.