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View Full Version : Don't Fire Manuel...fix the roster instead


xil357
05-20-2003, 11:38 AM
Jerry Manuel is not the problem with this team. He would be snapped up by another team very soon and it would come back to haunt us like LaRussa and Torborg.

Intead, I propose:

Put Konerko on the DL. It is plainly obvious he is playing hurt. He's such a gamer that he would play with one arm if it were up to him. (Remember the knight from Monty Python's Holy Grail?)

Put Frank at 1B and bat him second. It is proven that he hits better when he plays the field. He'll see better pitches in the two-hole. If he doesn't turn it around by the All Star break, then by that time Konerko should be healed and it will be time to dump salary for next year. If he heats up, we'll start winning more.

Trade Konerko or Carlos Lee to an AL team for a left-handed hitting center fielder. I would even accept Chris Singleton straight up to improve defense, for example. Don't trade him to an NL team and don't trade with Oakland. He'll do too well in the NL due to the inferior pitching and more opportunities to pad his stats against the Cubs. I don't even need to explain why to not deal with Billy Beane.

Have Rios play LF in place of Lee until Borchard is ready.

Keep Ordonez in RF and bat him third.

As Phil Rogers has advocated, bring up Aaron Miles and put him at 2B. Have Jiminez DH and lead off.

Let Daubach spell Thomas at 1B and Jiminez at DH.

Keep sending out our young starting pitchers. We need to see where they are.

Dump Rick White. Call up Ginter. Keep Marte at all costs. Re-sign Colon.

If this doesn't work for the rest of the season, dump payroll to contenders and free up space to make a run at Miguel Tejada this winter.

DO NOT MAKE TRADES WITH NATIONAL LEAGUE TEAMS UNLESS WHAT YOU CAN ACQUIRE FROM THEM IS SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER THAN WHAT YOU CAN GET FROM AN AL TEAM FOR THE SAME PRICE. THIS MOST ESPECIALLY APPLIES TO TRADING AWAY PITCHING PROSPECTS.

Hullett_Fan
05-20-2003, 11:50 AM
Wish we could get a time machine...I'd do these transactions before this dreadful season ever began:

1) Sign Paul Bako or Damion Miller for Catcher

2) Trade Olivo to Braves for Millwood

3) Trade Garland and Lee to Cards for JD Drew


Lineup:

Jimenez
Thomas
Ordonez (LF)
Drew (RF)
Konerko
Crede
Valentin
Borchard (CF)
Miller or Bako

Rotation:
Colon
Buerhle
Millwood
Loaiza
Wright or Rauch or Stewart

hold2dibber
05-20-2003, 01:13 PM
[Originally posted by xil357
Put Konerko on the DL. It is plainly obvious he is playing hurt. He's such a gamer that he would play with one arm if it were up to him. (Remember the knight from Monty Python's Holy Grail?)

Where do you get this? Is it "obvious" to you just because of his performance? He has said he feels fine, and there is no injury that is apparent to the eye. Whachutalkinbout?

Trade Konerko or Carlos Lee to an AL team for a left-handed hitting center fielder. I would even accept Chris Singleton straight up to improve defense, for example. Don't trade him to an NL team and don't trade with Oakland. He'll do too well in the NL due to the inferior pitching and more opportunities to pad his stats against the Cubs. I don't even need to explain why to not deal with Billy Beane.]

Konerko or Lee for Chris Singleton is about the worst trade idea I've ever, EVER seen on this board (except maybe when someone suggested this off season that the Sox deal Buehrle for Ankiel). This is so absurd, that I find it hard to compose myself to respond. Chris Singleton sucks. Lee and Konerko are both pretty good. His defense is not nearly good enough to make up for the discrepancy in his offense as compared to Lee or Konerko. Give me a break. Also, you couldn't deal for Singleton without trading with the A's, because he is on the A's. So what the heck are you talking about? With that said, I would love to deal Lee or PK for a good left handed hitting CF. But those are few and far between. Jim Edmonds? Steve Finley? I don't see the Sox taking on either of those guys. Easier said than done.

[B]Have Rios play LF in place of Lee until Borchard is ready.

Rios isn't very good, certainly not as good as Lee.

hold2dibber
05-20-2003, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Hullett_Fan
Wish we could get a time machine...I'd do these transactions before this dreadful season ever began:

1) Sign Paul Bako or Damion Miller for Catcher

2) Trade Olivo to Braves for Millwood

3) Trade Garland and Lee to Cards for JD Drew


Lineup:

Jimenez
Thomas
Ordonez (LF)
Drew (RF)
Konerko
Crede
Valentin
Borchard (CF)
Miller or Bako

Rotation:
Colon
Buerhle
Millwood
Loaiza
Wright or Rauch or Stewart

Just a couple points:

(1) Damian Miller was not a free agent this offseason -- the Cubs acquired him in a trade.

(2) No way in all hell would JR have given the thumbs up to trade for both Colon (and his $8 million dollar salary) and Millwood (and his $10 million dollar salary).

steff
05-20-2003, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
[

Where do you get this? Is it "obvious" to you just because of his performance? He has said he feels fine, and there is no injury that is apparent to the eye. Whachutalkinbout?






Where you been..? He has degenerative hip disease. He is injured. He will not get better. We should dump him while he can still walk.

Hullett_Fan
05-20-2003, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Just a couple points:

(1) Damian Miller was not a free agent this offseason -- the Cubs acquired him in a trade.

(2) No way in all hell would JR have given the thumbs up to trade for both Colon (and his $8 million dollar salary) and Millwood (and his $10 million dollar salary).

Oops forgot Miller was acquired via trade...Bako would be fine (or Josh Paul for that matter)

Did I mention that in the time machine we'd have a genie that grants us one wish...which is that JR would at least have a payroll the size of the freakin small market Minn. Twins!!!!

:)

Brian26
05-20-2003, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by steff3603
Where you been..? He has degenerative hip disease. He is injured. He will not get better. We should dump him while he can still walk.

Huh? Where and when did this become news?

Please let us know.

Blueprint1
05-20-2003, 02:51 PM
If Konerko has degenerative hip disease he is done. This is the same thing that Albert Belle has. As you can see players are not really able to play through that kind of injury. Maybe this is why Konerko is unable to hit anymore just like Belle was unable to hit in his last playing year. If this is true I am very sad to hear this news about Pauly

DaveGusinSeattle
05-20-2003, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by xil357
....Trade Konerko or Carlos Lee to an AL team for a left-handed hitting center fielder. I would even accept Chris Singleton straight up to improve defense, for example.
..............

Have Rios play LF in place of Lee until Borchard is ready.
............
Dump Rick White. Call up Ginter. Keep Marte at all costs. Re-sign Colon.



Trade Lee, NO way, he just missed a couple of Great Catches and he is one of the few hitting now.

Light a fire :angry: under some people, including Frank.
I say move 2 or 3 players that aren't hitting down to the minors, and bring up some of them that are hitting.

Dump Rick White. Call up Ginter. Tell Buerle he gets one more chance. Maybe let Behrle sit next time and put in Ginter.

Let them ride a bus in the minor's and they will :whiner: .

:whoflungpoo :sellreinsy

MHOUSE
05-20-2003, 03:48 PM
I have heard a lot about Paulie's hip and he obviously can't run well. Bruce Levine still claims Paulie had an offseason back injury that is hurting him. Of course Konerko would say that he's fine, the guys a gamer. I think he needs a trip to the DL to try and get healthy.

My cat had a degenerative hip thingy and she could hardly walk the last few months. It was painful to watch and we had to put her down. If they knew about this disease and it's not allowing him to play well, why would they sign him long-term if it'll keep getting worse?

hold2dibber
05-20-2003, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by steff3603
Where you been..? He has degenerative hip disease. He is injured. He will not get better. We should dump him while he can still walk.

Say what? I have never heard that before. Where did you get that info? I assume that this is something that came to light after the Sox signed him up for big $? If true, he's done; a trip to the DL isn't going to help. And the Sox sure as hell wouldn't be able to deal him to another team.

Soxboyrob
05-20-2003, 05:46 PM
Steff is absolutely right, much as I hate to admit it. Paul's had hip dysplexia for as far back as I can remember...even before the extension was signed. If that's what's bothering him, it's the first signs I've seen of it, unless the second half of last season was the beginning of the end for him. It's not a problem that gets any better.

guillen4life13
05-20-2003, 05:58 PM
I believe that there is something wrong with his lower body, although degenerative hips might be going a little far. I do know that that's why he converted from Catcher to 1B (for those of you who don't know, Konerko was a catcher in the Dodgers minor league organization, and switched to 1B for two reasons: one, he wouldn't have had a position on the big league roster at catcher because of Mike Piazza, and secondly, he had the medical problems with his lower body (hips, knees, whatever they might be). So yeah, here's just some confirmation that he has had a long lasting condition, somewhere in his lower body that would affect his play.

fquaye149
05-20-2003, 07:55 PM
yeah le'ts have a 2 hitter(thomas) who couldn't lay down a bunt to save his life. although i guess that wouldn't be too different from what we have now

Ol Aches & Pains
05-20-2003, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by xil357
Jerry Manuel is not the problem with this team. He would be snapped up by another team very soon and it would come back to haunt us like LaRussa and Torborg.

Intead, I propose:

Put Konerko on the DL. It is plainly obvious he is playing hurt. He's such a gamer that he would play with one arm if it were up to him. (Remember the knight from Monty Python's Holy Grail?)

Put Frank at 1B and bat him second. It is proven that he hits better when he plays the field. He'll see better pitches in the two-hole. If he doesn't turn it around by the All Star break, then by that time Konerko should be healed and it will be time to dump salary for next year. If he heats up, we'll start winning more.

Trade Konerko or Carlos Lee to an AL team for a left-handed hitting center fielder. I would even accept Chris Singleton straight up to improve defense, for example. Don't trade him to an NL team and don't trade with Oakland. He'll do too well in the NL due to the inferior pitching and more opportunities to pad his stats against the Cubs. I don't even need to explain why to not deal with Billy Beane.

Have Rios play LF in place of Lee until Borchard is ready.

Keep Ordonez in RF and bat him third.

As Phil Rogers has advocated, bring up Aaron Miles and put him at 2B. Have Jiminez DH and lead off.

Let Daubach spell Thomas at 1B and Jiminez at DH.

Keep sending out our young starting pitchers. We need to see where they are.

Dump Rick White. Call up Ginter. Keep Marte at all costs. Re-sign Colon.

If this doesn't work for the rest of the season, dump payroll to contenders and free up space to make a run at Miguel Tejada this winter.

DO NOT MAKE TRADES WITH NATIONAL LEAGUE TEAMS UNLESS WHAT YOU CAN ACQUIRE FROM THEM IS SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER THAN WHAT YOU CAN GET FROM AN AL TEAM FOR THE SAME PRICE. THIS MOST ESPECIALLY APPLIES TO TRADING AWAY PITCHING PROSPECTS.

How exactly would the Sox acquire Singleton or Tejada without dealing with Billy Beane?

Play Frank Thomas at first base every day? Get rid of Carlos Lee and keep Brian Daubach?

Can't argue with you about dumping Rick White, though. Can't happen soon enough.

LuvSox
05-20-2003, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
My cat had a degenerative hip thingy and she could hardly walk the last few months. It was painful to watch and we had to put her down.

You're not suggesting that Paulie get put down, are you? That's a little extreme, dontcha think? At the very least, put him out to stud. I knew all you ladies would like that last part :D:

jeremyb1
05-21-2003, 02:20 AM
Originally posted by steff3603
Where you been..? He has degenerative hip disease. He is injured. He will not get better. We should dump him while he can still walk.

i've heard before that paully has a hip problem but i've never heard it referred to as being degenerative. that's career threatening, there's no way the sox would sign him to a long term deal if that were the case.

as for paully's health this season, i agree with others that he doesn't act like he's hurt. someone mentioned his back in another thread and claimed he's been hitting the ball and it just hasn't gone anywhere but from watching games the past week and a half it looks to me like he's simply not putting good swings on the ball. he did today and hit three rockets. i agree paully's a gamer but as one you wouldn't think he'd hit .215 and hurt the team this much if he knew it was physical and wasn't about to improve.

steff
05-21-2003, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Huh? Where and when did this become news?

Please let us know.


It was reported when we aquired him. But, like with Albert, he was OK then. Albert was diagnosed 5 years before it became an issue.

steff
05-21-2003, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i've heard before that paully has a hip problem but i've never heard it referred to as being degenerative. that's career threatening, there's no way the sox would sign him to a long term deal if that were the case.




Yes it has been referred to as such, and yes the Sox knew BEFORE we got him, and yes they still signed him to an extension.

Geezus people. It's documented. Why the hell would I lie?

steff
05-21-2003, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
Steff is absolutely right, much as I hate to admit it. Paul's had hip dysplexia for as far back as I can remember...even before the extension was signed. If that's what's bothering him, it's the first signs I've seen of it, unless the second half of last season was the beginning of the end for him. It's not a problem that gets any better.


Thank you Robbo.. not that it matters. Guess I need to post the doctors report. :?:


And no, I don't have it so I can't post it.

xil357
05-21-2003, 01:36 PM
The Lee for Singleton deal was hypothetical. We need a CF in the mold of a Chris Singleton (although I appluad Lee's catch in Tuesday night's game versus the Jays. Let's see more of that I and will retract my call to trade him).

As for Tejada, isn't he a free agent this offseason? And doesn't Oakland traditionally have trouble (because of unwillngness to spend the bucks) re-signing their free agents?

The free agent market is depressed. This offseason may be a good opportunity to get great value for less money. By unloading some current big contracts (one of the right-handed slow footed DH/1B/LF types) on the roster, and signing those free agents currently on the roster who are productive (Colon), we can re-load the team on the fly. Sure it would cost, but signing Tejada would increase ticket sales and revenues. Its not like we have much in the way of hot SS prospects in the minors. His defense certainly would be an upgrade over Valentin. He would be a cornerstone for an infield of 3B Crede, SS Tejada, 2B Miles and 1B Thomas.

SoxxoS
05-21-2003, 01:52 PM
If the Sox signed Konerko to a extention even though they knew they had this condition, that is absolutely unacceptable. I (we) put up with a lot of crap with this organization. I shake a lot of it off, because I am a fan. However, this is something that is going to be hard to get over, esp. considering the money JR likes to spend. Imagine if we have Konerko for the next 3 years at that salary, and he can't play. My gosh.

jeremyb1
05-21-2003, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by steff3603
Yes it has been referred to as such, and yes the Sox knew BEFORE we got him, and yes they still signed him to an extension.

Geezus people. It's documented. Why the hell would I lie?

i'm not saying you're lying just possibly slightly mistaken as to the nature of his condition. if it is documented where is it documented? in another thread all someone was able to find was an article from a cincinatti newspaper where paully insisted the condition would not worsen over time ie it was not degenerative. i'm not denying he has a bad hip i'm only denying that its considered to be a degenerative condition.

steff
05-22-2003, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i'm not saying you're lying just possibly slightly mistaken as to the nature of his condition. if it is documented where is it documented? in another thread all someone was able to find was an article from a cincinatti newspaper where paully insisted the condition would not worsen over time ie it was not degenerative. i'm not denying he has a bad hip i'm only denying that its considered to be a degenerative condition.



Not at all mistaken. You'll see..