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Jurr
05-18-2003, 12:39 AM
Just watched Baseball tonight. They talked a bit about the Sox underachieving and JM's job security. They said that if the team continues to underachieve, that he's done. NO kidding. Also, Kurkijan (who would go down on George Steinbrenner if he could)
said that he didn't think the team was very good to begin with. He said 1. the team has no defense up the gut 2. All right handed hitters 3. Barely any middle relief help. 4. no speed.

Well, that about sums it up! He's right. This team is not built for October. Our desire (the season doesn't matter if they don't achieve it) is for the team to win it all. This group isn't that group.
So, save the aneurism...save your cardiovascular system....don't get depressed about this team. We're all diehards here, but it's just not worth carrying the disappointment. Be a fan, enjoy the game, and if they win, they win. That's all we can do about it. Writing "FIRE JM" doesn't do anything. Writing "Fire Gary Ward" doesn't do anything. You're a fan, and the only thing you can do is hope the team comes around and picks up the right talent and coaching. Until we do, we're just Lemmings...helpless...walking off the cliff with the team we love.

MHOUSE
05-18-2003, 12:41 AM
Sounds like they got it about right. Sports Illustarted said that JM, Mike Hargrove, and...someone else were on the hot seat. I wish they were right about that. I have a feeling we'll never see the end of JM's tenure.

jeremyb1
05-18-2003, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by Jurr
Just watched Baseball tonight. They talked a bit about the Sox underachieving and JM's job security. They said that if the team continues to underachieve, that he's done. NO kidding. Also, Kurkijan (who would go down on George Steinbrenner if he could)
said that he didn't think the team was very good to begin with. He said 1. the team has no defense up the gut 2. All right handed hitters 3. Barely any middle relief help. 4. no speed.

i'm sorry but i think kurkjian's way off. no team is perfect and personally i would rather have a team that does serveral things incredibly well than a team that does everything pretty well.

yes we don't have great defense up the middle but the fact that three of our players on the field are mediocre defenders means we can't compete? that's completely ridiculous. yes we have a lot of right handed hitters but two of our four all-star caliber hitters (coming into the season) hit righties better than lefties last season. as for middle relief gordon is an above average reliever, wunsch was outstanding in '00 and at the end of last year, glover had an era below 2 in relief last season, and marte was absolutely phenomenal last season.

it is true we don't have much in the way of speed but again, find me the team with speed, above average defense, above average hitting from 1-9, above average starting pitching 1-5, above average middle relief, and an above average closer. other than perhaps the yankees, i don't know what team we're talking about. every team has several major weaknesses. kurkjian, sports weekly, and several other "expert" sources have talked this way about us since the preseason and i think its complete bs. finding minor flaws in our team does not mean we can't compete. you can convince me that our team doesn't perform but not that its because we lack the talent. give me a break.

Lip Man 1
05-18-2003, 01:37 AM
All you have to see is Tori Hunter's catch to see the difference between the Twins and the Sox.

With respect Jeremy this team had a lot of holes (no pun intended) and it was hoped that the strenghts of the club could make up for them.

Unfortunately and clearly this is not the case and it looks like another mediocre season at best is all that awaits us for 2003 (and beyond?)

All of the optimism and all the statistics in the world can't change reality, this team can't run the bases, catch the ball, hit the right cutoff man, drive in runners with less then two outs, advance runners by hitting the other way or steal.

Even you have to admit that's a lot to overcome on a nightly basis.

Lip

doublem23
05-18-2003, 03:05 AM
Tim Kurkjian = ****ing moron

Alls its gonna take is one god damn winning streak...

Jjav829
05-18-2003, 03:25 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i'm sorry but i think kurkjian's way off. no team is perfect and personally i would rather have a team that does serveral things incredibly well than a team that does everything pretty well.

yes we don't have great defense up the middle but the fact that three of our players on the field are mediocre defenders means we can't compete? that's completely ridiculous. yes we have a lot of right handed hitters but two of our four all-star caliber hitters (coming into the season) hit righties better than lefties last season. as for middle relief gordon is an above average reliever, wunsch was outstanding in '00 and at the end of last year, glover had an era below 2 in relief last season, and marte was absolutely phenomenal last season.

it is true we don't have much in the way of speed but again, find me the team with speed, above average defense, above average hitting from 1-9, above average starting pitching 1-5, above average middle relief, and an above average closer. other than perhaps the yankees, i don't know what team we're talking about. every team has several major weaknesses. kurkjian, sports weekly, and several other "expert" sources have talked this way about us since the preseason and i think its complete bs. finding minor flaws in our team does not mean we can't compete. you can convince me that our team doesn't perform but not that its because we lack the talent. give me a break.

Not true. This team has major flaws. You said you would rather have a team that does several things incredibly well. What does this team do incredibly well? We thought going into this season that our offense wouldn't be a problem, yet Tampa Bay and Baltimore have both scored more runs. We knew the front of our rotation would be solid, but it has been mediocore at best. Find me something this team does well, much less several things that they do incredibly well. Our defense is awful. Seriously, is there anyone on this team that most people can agree that they feel comfortable when the ball is hit to him that he won't mess up? I can't think of one.

Lets try to find the flaws in last years world champs since you don't feel these flaws that Kurkjian correctly pointed out mean much. 1.) Defense up the middle. The Angels were fine there lead by a gold glove centerfielder. 2.) All right handed hitters. The Angels best hitter-Garret Anderson- is a lefty. They also have Brad Fullmer. No problems there. 3.) Barely any middle relief. Their closer had a great year. They also had 3 relievers with ERA in the 2.00's. Plus we all saw how great "K-Rod" was in the playoffs. No problem there. 4.) No Speed. Here is their only weakness. After Eckstein, Erstad, and Kennedy they are all very slow. But they made up for that by frequently putting runners in motion and being agressive. Somewhat of a problem but they did their best to overcome it.

So from what I see there, they had none of the problems the Sox had. They simply played good fundamental baseball and it got them a WS championship. BTW, have you thought up those several things that the Sox do incredibly well yet? Besides playing bad defense and grouding into double plays that is.

Jjav829
05-18-2003, 03:27 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
Tim Kurkjian = ****ing moron

Alls its gonna take is one god damn winning streak...

Tim Kurkjian = Absolutely correct.

You're right. All its gonna take is one god damn winning streak to make us forget about the flaws until the winning streak is over and we find out that we can't win with this many problems.

Tragg
05-18-2003, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by Jurr
Just watched Baseball tonight. They talked a bit about the Sox underachieving and JM's job security. They said that if the team continues to underachieve, that he's done. NO kidding. Also, Kurkijan (who would go down on George Steinbrenner if he could)
said that he didn't think the team was very good to begin with. He said 1. the team has no defense up the gut 2. All right handed hitters 3. Barely any middle relief help. 4. no speed.



Our middle relief is okay - better than most.
Our defense up the middle has been terrible for years.

hose
05-18-2003, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by Jurr
Just watched Baseball tonight. They talked a bit about the Sox underachieving and JM's job security. They said that if the team continues to underachieve, that he's done. NO kidding. Also, Kurkijan (who would go down on George Steinbrenner if he could)
said that he didn't think the team was very good to begin with. He said 1. the team has no defense up the gut 2. All right handed hitters 3. Barely any middle relief help. 4. no speed.

Well, that about sums it up! He's right. This team is not built for October. Our desire (the season doesn't matter if they don't achieve it) is for the team to win it all. This group isn't that group.
So, save the aneurism...save your cardiovascular system....don't get depressed about this team. We're all diehards here, but it's just not worth carrying the disappointment. Be a fan, enjoy the game, and if they win, they win. That's all we can do about it. Writing "FIRE JM" doesn't do anything. Writing "Fire Gary Ward" doesn't do anything. You're a fan, and the only thing you can do is hope the team comes around and picks up the right talent and coaching. Until we do, we're just Lemmings...helpless...walking off the cliff with the team we love.


So in other words once you get over the fact that the Sox are a .500 team at best it's business as usual . :D:

This was one of the few years that I really thought the Sox were a lock for a Division and possibly a WS appearance. As a fan it was a great winter and spring having thoughts of a dominant White Sox club.

Maybe the tide is turning in the Sox favor with Buehrle turning down a contract, it might be a sign.

Having KW at the helm when it comes time to dump players could bury this franchise for the next 5-6 years. :whiner:

Hopefully KW is out of the picture by then.

thezeker
05-18-2003, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by hose

Having KW at the helm when it comes time to dump players could bury this franchise for the next 5-6 years. :whiner:

Hopefully KW is out of the picture by then. [/B]


Boy, is this statement right on the money. After the all-star game they are going to be dumping players big time. With KW's track record he could really destroy this franchise.

It would really be a shame because the work on the ballpark has really changed the atmosphere there and the upcoming rennovations can really make it a special place. If Cleveland and Detroit pass us up in the next couple of years, which is a distinct possibility with KW at the helm that place will really be a mausoleum.

Our farm system already is shot ao if we're not careful we could be really bad for a long long time!

Kenny Williams must go now to save what's left of this franchise!

Paulwny
05-18-2003, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by hose

Having KW at the helm when it comes time to dump players could bury this franchise for the next 5-6 years. :whiner:



Don't forget , it'll be JR having KW dump salary, not caring who we receive in return. He'll blame the dump on the usual "lack of attendance".
At the end of the year JR will look at his bottom line and say, "I made money, that's all that counts".

Jurr
05-18-2003, 12:55 PM
I doubt Reinsdorf's made money on this ballclub in years. Yeah...you've gotta scrap this team and start over, in my opinion. Keep guys like Ordonez, Valentin, Wunsch, and Marte around..get rid of everyone else...bring in some solid guys that know how to play the game and have fun. The Twins have shown that with good coaching (Kelly is the father of that team) that emphasizes on fundamental baseball is what gets you wins. I remember games where, at the end, Kelly would leave the guys on the field and talk about some of the mistakes they made..always coaching. AND IT WAS AFTER WINS! We also need a good developmental program (obviously we're lacking there....example: Kip Wells sucks for us, gets in a different uni, and is pretty good. Watch Garland do the same!)
We need to scrap talent for some good young guys...get rid of the Kenny Williams era, bring in some GM who knows how to run things, get an old school teaching/disciplinarian style coach like Tom Kelly, build up the farm system, and win with home grown talent that learns to play real baseball. Enough of this 'mashers with no speed and defense' crap. That's never won a ring. It would probably take some years of sub .500 ball, but eventually it will come around. It's what KC, Anaheim, Minnesota, and Oakland did. I don't mind Jerry Manuel's "gandhi" stance. That's fine. As long as he can coach baseball to his players, it's fine. Obviously he can't do that. If I disregarded a cutoff man like Rios when I played, I ran flagpoles after the game, and in practice, I had to work extra on it. We couldn't leave practice until we got 5 bunts a piece down. Why the hell is it that a GM and manager (plus the owner) ever stand pat and watch these guys embarrass the franchise??? Some people are right to say that 'you shouldn't be on the coaches so much' it's not their fault.'
Well, get rid of the players then. Find people that act like they have played baseball their entire lives. And, while you're at it, find someone that can teach them the little things about winning.

Paulwny
05-18-2003, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by Jurr
I doubt Reinsdorf's made money on this ballclub in years. . .

Unless the stadium is completely empty:

(Illinois taxpayers also got the short end of the deal. While Reinsdorf innocently insists, "I didn't get into baseball to make money. Baseball is my religion. I'm happy to break even," the Comiskey deal gave him free rent for up to 1.2 million in attendance each year. The Sox pay the state $2.50 for every ticket from 1.2 to 2 million, yet the team also gets back $5 million a year for stadium repairs and maintenance. In addition, the state buys 300,000 tickets if attendance drops below 1.5 after the year 2001, so in actuality, Reinsdorf got public funds to build his stadium and subsidies to guarantee its profitability)

http://new.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/CA_Profiles/People_Profile/0,2540,87,00.html

jeremyb1
05-18-2003, 08:18 PM
but lets take the twins and try to find holes with them. 1) they don't have any top of the rotation starters. they have excellent depth to their rotation and a strong pen but they have no ace. they don't really have any starter capable of posting a sub 4 era. 2) too many left handed hitters. 3) a lack of good obp guys at the top of the order. jones is a really good hitter but he's probably not going to hit .350 all season and he doesn't walk. 4) all-star calliber hitters in the middle of the lineup. the twins didn't have one player that hit more than 30 home runs last season or a player that hit over .300 or a player that knocked in over 100 rbis.

any team has flaws and any team could be picked apart like this prior to the season save for the two or three best teams in baseball.

jeremyb1
05-18-2003, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
Not true. This team has major flaws. You said you would rather have a team that does several things incredibly well. What does this team do incredibly well? We thought going into this season that our offense wouldn't be a problem, yet Tampa Bay and Baltimore have both scored more runs. We knew the front of our rotation would be solid, but it has been mediocore at best. Find me something this team does well, much less several things that they do incredibly well. Our defense is awful. Seriously, is there anyone on this team that most people can agree that they feel comfortable when the ball is hit to him that he won't mess up? I can't think of one.

Lets try to find the flaws in last years world champs since you don't feel these flaws that Kurkjian correctly pointed out mean much. 1.) Defense up the middle. The Angels were fine there lead by a gold glove centerfielder. 2.) All right handed hitters. The Angels best hitter-Garret Anderson- is a lefty. They also have Brad Fullmer. No problems there. 3.) Barely any middle relief. Their closer had a great year. They also had 3 relievers with ERA in the 2.00's. Plus we all saw how great "K-Rod" was in the playoffs. No problem there. 4.) No Speed. Here is their only weakness. After Eckstein, Erstad, and Kennedy they are all very slow. But they made up for that by frequently putting runners in motion and being agressive. Somewhat of a problem but they did their best to overcome it.

So from what I see there, they had none of the problems the Sox had. They simply played good fundamental baseball and it got them a WS championship. BTW, have you thought up those several things that the Sox do incredibly well yet? Besides playing bad defense and grouding into double plays that is.

my argument was about talent and preseason expectations though not the way we're playing. we're 3 games under five hundred we're one of the worst hitting teams in baseball, we field poorly, and our pitching isn't spectacular obviously we're not a great team right now.

however, what i take issue with is kurkjian's analysis that we're not capable of doing these things. we absolutely have the talent to be excellent in many areas. we scored the third most runs in baseball last season, we have two top of the rotation starters, and gordon, koch, glover, and koch are all solid relievers. these players may not be playing to their capabilities but that doesn't mean they shouldn't have been expected to at the beginning of the season. if you expected paully to be hitting .220 or buehrle to have 7 losses at this point, raise your hand.

i fail to see how applying kurkjian's criticims of the white sox to the angels is meaningful. anyone who would argue those criteria are more important that other attributes such as top of the rotation pitching or a strong middle of the lineup earns little respect from me. you could find problems with the angels if you look. they don't have a great deal of power, they don't walk often, they a lot of their relivers had career years, etc. also, i disagreed with the criticism that we have poor middle relief and that the fact that we have right handed hitters is an issue. will someone explain to me why you need left handed hitters if your right handed hitters have a history of hitting right handed pitchers better than lefties? also lets remember all these arguments are related to the ability of our team and reasonable expectations for the team prior to the season, not our pitiful performance thus far.

fquaye149
05-18-2003, 09:18 PM
what bothers is me with you guys is taht you assume what we're doing now is indicative of our team. What do we do well? who would honestly say that baltimore and tampa bay have better offenses? seriously? get over it. Kurktjasddk;n is a moron and torii hunter's catch shows the twins are better than us? hardly. sorry, i would rather have an outfielder who will hit .300 with a good obp than a gold glover with torii hunter's hitting skills. but even if you'd rather have hunter and his fielding that doesn't mean it's better than the hitter. it's just two different areas. right now magglio is playing center field. who would you rather have in center if you had to choose? hunter or magglio. just because we are not hitting well right now doesn't mean it's not a strength. seriously....get over it. things need to change but stay on an even keel for goodness sakes. there's no need to get way too high or way too down on a team.

ma-gaga
05-18-2003, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
...sorry, i would rather have an outfielder who will hit .300 with a good obp than a gold glover with torii hunter's hitting skills...
...who would you rather have in center if you had to choose? hunter or magglio.

*edit* ok, so Maggs played some good CF this weekend. I'd like to see it for 20 games. I'll gladly eat my skeptical words if he does. *edit*

Can Magglio handle centerfield? Seriously?

I'd much rather have a guy that takes the wind out of the other team that makes leaping outs on HR's. That saved a game.

Maggs is a great player, but he's a corner outfielder. If we're going down this slope, why not just put him at second base?

Nellie_Fox
05-19-2003, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by fquaye149
who would you rather have in center if you had to choose? hunter or magglio. Do you have a shift key on your keyboard? God, this lazy "no caps" crap is hard to read.

The fact that the Sox are playing Maggs in center shows just how desperately bad the Sox are up the middle. They have no center fielder on the roster.

I'd take Maggs as one of my outfielders over Hunter. But, if I could only have one of them playing center, it would be Hunter. His glove shows up at the ballpark every day. With both of them playing center, I would bet if you added runs saved with the glove (hard to measure, I agree. You'll never know which flyballs Maggs doesn't get to would have been caught by Hunter.) and runs created with the bat, I think Hunter would win the comparison.

Somebody else said the Sox have three mediocre defensive players in the lineup. Seriously? Valentin is mediocre, everybody who plays first is, CLee is, Rios is, and as was also mentioned elsewhere, teams are bunting (with success) on Crede. I'm not convinced at all about Jiminez. At catcher, Olivo has a gun, but doesn't block pitches well, and Sandy's best days are well behind him. So what are you left with? Maggs is a good defensive right fielder. And he's now playing center.

Daver
05-19-2003, 12:31 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Do you have a shift key on your keyboard? God, this lazy "no caps" crap is hard to read.



Nellie,you have more patience than I do,if I see a block of lower case letters with little puncuation I don't bother to read it.

Nellie_Fox
05-19-2003, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by daver
Nellie,you have more patience than I do,if I see a block of lower case letters with little puncuation I don't bother to read it. That happens more often than not.