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View Full Version : Kenny, Get The Reds On The Phone Immediately


34 Inch Stick
05-15-2003, 11:01 AM
Jose Guillen has been reduced to their 4th outfielder with Griffey back and is demanding a trade. He plays centerfield, is hitting .327 and probably could be had for a pitching prospect (of which the Reds are in dire need). It sounds like a good fit and a deal that could get done.

How about Ginter and Rowand for Guillen.

soxnut
05-15-2003, 11:28 AM
I think I'd do it. Is he a left handed batter?

MHOUSE
05-15-2003, 11:34 AM
Guillen has a an absolute cannon for an arm with some elite accuracy. I was watching the Reds-Brewers series this weekend and he's a great outfielder. I was thinking I would love to get him, but that they might not part with him. If Griffey is back and he's unhappy then trade for him KW. He hits at the top of the order. He's a right handed hitter tho. Would be a GREAT addition.

Trade possibilities? What do they need that we have?

Stoky44
05-15-2003, 12:01 PM
I would try hard to get this guy in a sox uni., but i would not totally sell the farm with having Joe down in the minors ready to come up in a year or 2. I would consider getting rid of Ginter and Rowand, or Garland, possibly.

LuvSox
05-15-2003, 12:06 PM
Garland for Guillen

OR

C-Lee & Ginter for Juan Encarnacion

34 Inch Stick
05-15-2003, 12:14 PM
Just because I made the suggestion does not mean I am crazy. You do not give up Garland.

Ginter is fine. He can start immediately for the Reds in the majors and give them a 4.5 ERA. They are now in the hunt and they need to shore up some areas as well. With Guillen, Rowand becomes expendable. By next year he would be a 5th outfielder so he is a throw in. Guillen is playing well right now but he has never been exceptional. You only pay a little bit to get him and Garland is not a little bit.

MarkEdward
05-15-2003, 12:16 PM
Is this the same Jose Guillen that was cut from the Devil Rays two years ago? The same Jose Guillen that has a career OPS+ of 80? The same Jose Guillen that's only played nine games in center throughout his whole career?

Um, no thanks :smile:.

LuvSox
05-15-2003, 12:18 PM
I'm very 'anti Garland' right now. If he drops the bad attitude and starts pitching again I will probably agree with you.

MHOUSE
05-15-2003, 02:17 PM
Garland for Guillen straight up. Don't trade Ginter, he needs to take Rick White's spot. Keep Rowand as our 4-5 outfielder. They could use Garland and we don't need him, especially if he melts down this weekend in Minn.

hold2dibber
05-15-2003, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
Garland for Guillen straight up. Don't trade Ginter, he needs to take Rick White's spot. Keep Rowand as our 4-5 outfielder. They could use Garland and we don't need him, especially if he melts down this weekend in Minn.

Put down the crack pipe!

Seriously - Jose Guillen (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=5753&context=batting) ? He of the career .715 OPS? He's playing WAY over his head right now. The guy just isn't that good. Hell, he's no better than Armando Rios, and we already have Armando Rios. So why would you trade a 23 year old pitcher who won 12 games with a sub 5.00 ERA in the AL last year for a guy who is basically a carbon copy (only right handed) of a guy you already have on your roster? If you're pissed at Garland and want to trade him, fine, but not for Jose friggin' Guillen.

WhiteSoxWinner
05-15-2003, 02:42 PM
I don't know that I would trade Garland for Guillen. The most games Guillen has played in a season was 153 in 1998. In the last four seasons, he has only averaged about 80 games a season.

With the crowded outfield the Reds have, I think you could Guillen cheaper than that. The Reds are always looking for prospects, and could use the prospects to fill needs via trade if they continue to climb the NL Central rankings though the early summer. I think you could trade Garland to another team for someone more valuable than a part-time outfielder. Garland would most definitely get Guillen from the Reds, but a shrewder deal would allow us to deal Garland elsewhere for a better player.

Hangar18
05-15-2003, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
If Griffey is back and he's unhappy then trade for him KW. He hits at the top of the order. He's a right handed hitter though. Would be a GREAT addition.

Trade possibilities? What do they need that we have?

Ken Griffey is a Left Handed Batter

Hangar18
05-15-2003, 03:09 PM
The White Sox, being the Cheapskates they are, can actually take Griffeys Contract off their hands, for MINIMAL talent.
We'd be DOING THE REDS a FAVOR HERE. Griffey I believe would be REBORN in the AL, and ESP Chicago, a major market.

WhiteSoxWinner
05-15-2003, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Ken Griffey is a Left Handed Batter

He is also making $10+ million this year and owed a lot more in the future. He is too much of an injury risk. Unless the Reds agree to pay a LARGE portion of his salary, which they won't do, this deal will not happen, nor would I want it to.

doublem23
05-15-2003, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
Garland for Guillen straight up. Don't trade Ginter, he needs to take Rick White's spot. Keep Rowand as our 4-5 outfielder. They could use Garland and we don't need him, especially if he melts down this weekend in Minn.

Trade Garland, keep Ginter?

What is this world coming to?

Daver
05-15-2003, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
He is also making $10+ million this year and owed a lot more in the future. He is too much of an injury risk. Unless the Reds agree to pay a LARGE portion of his salary, which they won't do, this deal will not happen, nor would I want it to.


2000: $12.5M
2001: $12.5M
2002: $12.5M
2003: $12.5M
2004: $12.5M
2005: $12.5M
2006: $12.5M
2007: $12.5M
2008: $12.5M
2009: Team option with $4.0M buyout

Griffey's contract numbers.


No way does JR take that on.

doublem23
05-15-2003, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by daver
2000: $12.5M
2001: $12.5M
2002: $12.5M
2003: $12.5M
2004: $12.5M
2005: $12.5M
2006: $12.5M
2007: $12.5M
2008: $12.5M
2009: Team option with $4.0M buyout

Griffey's contract numbers.


No way does JR take that on.

In this case, I like JR's cheapskatedness.

Hangar18
05-15-2003, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
In this case, I like JR's cheapskatedness.

yeeesh. I forgot the Reds, desperate for an AL player, Any AL Player, overpaid for him, and now will have to lug that Piano-Sized Contract around. Phillies will be going thru this in a couple years also by the way....

hold2dibber
05-15-2003, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
yeeesh. I forgot the Reds, desperate for an AL player, Any AL Player, overpaid for him, and now will have to lug that Piano-Sized Contract around. Phillies will be going thru this in a couple years also by the way....

I totally agree about the Phillies; but I don't think the Reds signed Griffey because they wanted just ANY AL player; they wanted Griffey, and they wanted him because he was the best player in baseball at the time and because he was born and raised in Cincinnatti. They also got him for less than the going market price at the time. Just about everyone thought it was a great move at the time. Turns out, not so much.

LuvSox
05-15-2003, 04:30 PM
I just watched Baseball Tonight (afternoon) and they raked Guillen over the coals, no mercy whatsoever. Maybe we don't want that guy. The Rockies gave him a ten day try out and dumped him after only 5 days. We don't need another guy off the bench, we need a starter.

Jjav829
05-15-2003, 07:43 PM
No thanks. I'm not so sure that the Reds would do it anyway. He is fairly cheap and will provide good insurance if(when?) Griffey goes down again. I doubt his market value is high enough that they could get anything worth them making the trade.

lowesox
05-15-2003, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by LuvSox
I just watched Baseball Tonight (afternoon) and they raked Guillen over the coals, no mercy whatsoever. Maybe we don't want that guy. The Rockies gave him a ten day try out and dumped him after only 5 days. We don't need another guy off the bench, we need a starter.

I want him. And I think he would come cheaper than many of you think. He's a fourth outfielder publicly requesting a trade. Cinci would have no leverage. Involving Rowand makes lots of sense, Ginter doesn't. He's important to this team. However, we can send Rowand and a much lesser pitching prospect.

I think some of us need to lower the expectations. After all, we're filling a need two months into the season. To get any kind of really talented player would take a lot in return. Like Beltran, for instance, who KC has been trying to drive the price up for the last few months. All we need is a stop gap. Guillen is that guy.

And if he works out next year when Frank leaves Lee could move into DH, Guillen to LF and BOrchard to center.

MarkEdward
05-16-2003, 01:04 AM
Originally posted by lowesox

And if he works out next year when Frank leaves Lee could move into DH, Guillen to LF and BOrchard to center.

Is this *really* the same Jose Guillen that has a career OBP of .305?

Seriously, what's the love fest for Jose Guillen? The man was cut by the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. Once again: he was cut by the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. D-e-v-i-l R-a-y-s. His similarity scores match up with such behemoths as Junior Felix, Derrick May, and Danny Bautista. He's bad. He should be playing for the Newark Bears.

To sum it up, his propensity for suck out-sucks such pieces of suck like Tom Goodwin and Kevin Young.

kermittheefrog
05-16-2003, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Is this *really* the same Jose Guillen that has a career OBP of .305?

Seriously, what's the love fest for Jose Guillen? The man was cut by the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. Once again: he was cut by the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. D-e-v-i-l R-a-y-s. His similarity scores match up with such behemoths as Junior Felix, Derrick May, and Danny Bautista. He's bad. He should be playing for the Newark Bears.

To sum it up, his propensity for suck out-sucks such pieces of suck like Tom Goodwin and Kevin Young.

I've got a theory that when a thread starts with a ridiculous statement like "we need Jose Guillen" it can only get worse from there like "lets trade Garland for Guillen." How many people advocating Guillen have actually looked at his career numbers? .260 BA .305 OBP .398 SLG. As a rightfielder in the late nineties he's never hit more than 14 home runs, never driven in more than 84 runs and never walked more than 21 times. He hasn't been a major league regular since 1998. He also has 9 career games in center. How do you see him as a center fielder?

hold2dibber
05-16-2003, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by lowesox
I want him. And I think he would come cheaper than many of you think. He's a fourth outfielder publicly requesting a trade. Cinci would have no leverage. Involving Rowand makes lots of sense, Ginter doesn't. He's important to this team. However, we can send Rowand and a much lesser pitching prospect.

I think some of us need to lower the expectations. After all, we're filling a need two months into the season. To get any kind of really talented player would take a lot in return. Like Beltran, for instance, who KC has been trying to drive the price up for the last few months. All we need is a stop gap. Guillen is that guy.

And if he works out next year when Frank leaves Lee could move into DH, Guillen to LF and BOrchard to center.

Why would the Sox want a 4th outfielder who can't really play CF? The Sox are absolutely teeming with 4th outfielders who can't really play CF. Armando Rios, Aaron Rowand, Willie Harris, Brian Daubach. Jose Guillen is no different and no better than any of those guys. If the Sox are going to trade for a center fielder, how about: (1) someone who is actually good at playing baseball!; and (2) someone who is actually a center fielder!

MHOUSE
05-16-2003, 09:42 AM
I watched Guillen this weekend. He's just what we need. He's a great defensive outfielder with a very accurate and STRONG arm. He's gunned down several runners at the plate with pinpoint perfect throws. He also can bat at the top of the order perhaps behind Jimenez and move Valentin down in the order for some lefty power there.

He's hitting .327 with 7 homers and 21 RBIs. Maybe he's struggled in the past but he looks like he's hitting this year so forget the past! .327 would give him the highest average on our team and much better numbers than Harris.

He's publically begging to be traded and the same thing happened last year in Cincy with Encarnacion when Griffey returned.

Guillen is good defensively, he's hitting right now, he's cheap. Forget Beltran. Rowand and a pitching prospect for Guillen. Lets do it now!

ESPN story (http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2003/0514/1553788.html)

gosox41
05-16-2003, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
Garland for Guillen straight up. Don't trade Ginter, he needs to take Rick White's spot. Keep Rowand as our 4-5 outfielder. They could use Garland and we don't need him, especially if he melts down this weekend in Minn.

I would assume that Garland being a 23 year old RHP with 3 years before free agency would have more value then Gullien. As bad as Garland has been, the potential is too high to be trading him for someone with a career 715 OPS.

Bob

34 Inch Stick
05-16-2003, 12:13 PM
Kermit, while I started the thread it was others who said Garland (just to distance myself from that kind of talk).

Guillen had 9 starts in center coming into the season. He has started for the Reds at the position for about a month. By most accounts he has played the position well from a defensive perspective.

He is in his late twenties, which is a point when most players have their best seasons. Following this he is playing the best baseball of his career this year.

Yes I looked at the numbers. Not great, but then again I am not looking for a savior. If we remain pat we have Rios (who is not a centerfielder) and Harris (who is not a centerfielder) playing that position. He would probably come cheap (much cheaper than Garland). I said Ginter, a person who has career middle reliever written all over him (if he can stay in the majors at all). It sure doesn't look like much risk. On the other hand if you have acquired a guy when he has finally figured it out, you may have a steal.

Or we can just sit back and pray Willie can get on base 2 out of 10 times, and continue our dreams about Borchard.

MarkEdward
05-16-2003, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Kermit, while I started the thread it was others who said Garland (just to distance myself from that kind of talk).

I agree. If we dumped Garland, than he could be had for so much more. Guillen is equal to Jamie Burke or Gabe Alvarez right now.

Guillen had 9 starts in center coming into the season. He has started for the Reds at the position for about a month. By most accounts he has played the position well from a defensive perspective.

According to ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/fielding?statsId=5753), he has played zero games in center so far this season.

He is in his late twenties, which is a point when most players have their best seasons. Following this he is playing the best baseball of his career this year.

Doesn't a normal player usually reach his peak at age 26-28?

Yes I looked at the numbers. Not great, but then again I am not looking for a savior. If we remain pat we have Rios (who is not a centerfielder) and Harris (who is not a centerfielder) playing that position.

Guillen isn't a centerfielder either! The Reds, without Griffey, are desperate for a centerfielder, and they won't even play him in center!

On the other hand if you have acquired a guy when he has finally figured it out, you may have a steal.

But are you just going to ignore 2050 prior at-bats that shows that he's not good?

Or we can just sit back and pray Willie can get on base 2 out of 10 times, and continue our dreams about Borchard.

Or maybe we can hand the job over to Armando Rios?

hold2dibber
05-16-2003, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Or maybe we can hand the job over to Armando Rios?

That makes a heck of a lot more sense than Guillen. I think Rios is certainly as good (and probably a little better) than Guillen with the stick, plus he hits lefty (whereas Guillen hits right handed). Plus, we already have Rios on the roster and wouldn't have to give away anything for him. Plus, Rios doesn't bitch about playing time, whereas Guillen, he of the career .715 OPS, immediately demanded a trade when Griffey came back! No thank you. I would love to see the Sox acquire a decent CF in a trade, but short of that, Rios is a much better option than Guillen.

Rocklive99
05-16-2003, 04:20 PM
Speaking of the Reds, how about Reggie Taylor? I don't know anything about his stats or anything but I saw the Reds/Cardinals game yesterday on ESPN, and he a very nice play in CF, and the announcers were talking about how great he is defensivily (sp?) and how he is probably on the block with the Red's crowded outfield. God knows we need defense, and Willie's not getting it done with the bat. Just throwing it out there

MarkEdward
05-16-2003, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by Rocklive99
Speaking of the Reds, how about Reggie Taylor? I don't know anything about his stats or anything but I saw the Reds/Cardinals game yesterday on ESPN, and he a very nice play in CF, and the announcers were talking about how great he is defensivily (sp?) and how he is probably on the block with the Red's crowded outfield. God knows we need defense, and Willie's not getting it done with the bat. Just throwing it out there

Taylor (according to his stats) isn't actually that great defensively. In the minors, he made a ton of errors for a centerfielder. His range factor is below average relative to the league. He has little to no offensive value.

I'll throw three names out here:

1. Brad Wilkerson (pipe dream)
2. Steve Finley (if Arizona continues to fall; high price tag)
3. Mark Kotsay (Towers has already been burned by Williams; also has high price tag)

Hullett_Fan
05-16-2003, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward


I'll throw three names out here:

1. Brad Wilkerson (pipe dream)
2. Steve Finley (if Arizona continues to fall; high price tag)
3. Mark Kotsay (Towers has already been burned by Williams; also has high price tag)

I like Wilkerson and Kotsay. I also mentioned J.D. Drew in another thread...though you give up A LOT defensively.

whitesoxwilkes
05-16-2003, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward

Or maybe we can hand the job over to Armando Rios?

That would be too logical for the bunch running this team. Next to Loaiza, Rios was our best offseason pickup.