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View Full Version : remaking the team on the fly


soxruleEP
05-14-2003, 05:15 PM
Since it is obvious that something needs to be done to awaken the Sox from their torper, here's a radical proposition offered for comment and debate.

What are major problems now that are not related to performance (i.e. lack of clutch hitting)?

1. Lack of team speed--prevents team from executing as need be in close, low-scoring games.

2. Lack of intensity

Each can only be dealt with by adding/subtracting players.

So . . .

Who can be replaced on the team to deal with these problems?

I propose jettisoning Carlos Lee. Why?

When was the last time you saw him hustle on or off the field? he is the last player off and the last player on. While I hated Pete Rose because I always thought he was a phony hustler, it seems that CLee's basic personality is that of a sluggard. Even in his trimmed-down current self, he only runs when he has to. He needs to go.

Of course, we have to find someone who will take him.

What if we sweeten the pot? What if we add Paul Konerko?

As a pair, they are more attractive than as singles. We should be able to get something worthwhile for them.

But more importantly, it allows for this team to take the field:

1b J. Valentin
2b A. Myles
SS D. Jimenez
3b J. Crede
LF J. Borchardt/A. Rios
CF W. Harris/J. Borchardt
RF M. Ordonez
DH Frank Thomas

Instead of a team of piano-toters, we have some real speed here, speed that matches up with what has been, for most part, good pitching.

I realize there are some shortcomings: Valentin moved, Jimenez returned to SS midseason, a real reduction in power, loss of a very popular player.

But it will take something radical like this to turn things around. I don't like the idea of waiting for the hitting to suddenly wake up. And I don't think CLee has any more upside--he is what he is.

Comments--and we probably don't need comments such as "never happen." I realize that. I am interested in what people think of a team reconstituted along these lines.

Hangar18
05-14-2003, 05:26 PM
whew, this team would be faster, but not too much faster. yeah, the reduction in Power is staggering. I dont like this lineup, but then again, the lineup we have isnt producing. this could be a true manufacturing runs kind of team. I noticed you have Thomas still in this lineup. whats scary, is that there would only be 3 real power threats in the lineup, Thomas, Borchard, Ordonez. Scary. Ordonez would end up leading the world in INtentional walks. while Borchard and Thomas would strikeout to end the innings. yuchhh

soxruleEP
05-14-2003, 05:30 PM
You're correct about the intentional walks--Mags would need to hit third with Thomas fourth.

I would include Valentin as a power threat--he is certainly equal to Lee.

Your points are well taken however.

Daver
05-14-2003, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by soxruleEP


1b J. Valentin
2b A. Myles
SS D. Jimenez
3b J. Crede
LF /A. Rios
CF W. Harris/
RF M. Ordonez
DH Frank Thomas



This would make a bad defensive team far worse,Jiminez has limited range and has trouble getting the ball to 1B from 2ND,Aaron Miles is at best a marginal second baseman,and Willie Harris has no business whatsoever being in the outfield. You have a very weak up the middle defense that would have to score 10 runs a game to make up for it.

But then again what the hell do I know? ©

hose
05-14-2003, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by soxruleEP
I propose jettisoning Carlos Lee. Why?

When was the last time you saw him hustle on or off the field? he is the last player off and the last player on. While I hated Pete Rose because I always thought he was a phony hustler, it seems that CLee's basic personality is that of a sluggard. Even in his trimmed-down current self, he only runs when he has to. He needs to go.


I was at the Sox/Twins game when Carlos hustled into second when Hunter/Jones didn't put enough effort on a routine single.

I to would like to see some more speed on the team but the guy has to be a ballplayer first. Willie Harris is one of the fastest guys in baseball but he still can't play center.

Carlos Lee has tried to improve his defense over the last few years.
He will never be a great fielder , it just isn't going to happen.
The Sox otoh should not have compounded the problem by not having a major league center fielder roaming the outfield HELPING Carlos out.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/photo?slug=1052692217white_sox_mariners_tsw104&prov=ap

soxnut
05-14-2003, 06:35 PM
I have no problem dealing Lee and Konerko. But whoever they are traded for, would have to be someone that would be in your lineup. It would have to be a left-handed batter with decent power, speed, average and defense.

I had a conversation with Bill Melton in the BP bar back in '01 about having too many similiar players on the team(Lee,Konerko,Thomas), he was the one to bring it up. He was kind of upset that the team was built like that way and I thought he was right.

2b Jiminez
ss Valentin
rf Ordonez
lf New Aquisition
dh Thomas
cf Borchard
1b Daubach
3b Crede
c Olivo



And leave the pitching alone, it's doing a great job considering we have no offense.

lowesox
05-14-2003, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by soxnut
I have no problem dealing Lee and Konerko. But whoever they are traded for, would have to be someone that would be in your lineup. It would have to be a left-handed batter with decent power, speed, average and defense.

I had a conversation with Bill Melton in the BP bar back in '01 about having too many similiar players on the team(Lee,Konerko,Thomas), he was the one to bring it up. He was kind of upset that the team was built like that way and I thought he was right.

2b Jiminez
ss Valentin
rf Ordonez
lf New Aquisition
dh Thomas
cf Borchard
1b Daubach
3b Crede
c Olivo



And leave the pitching alone, it's doing a great job considering we have no offense.

I have a good feeling that Konerko is going to heat up at some point this season. Here's a guy who can hit, and while I know he's struggled a bit since last year, our next hitting coach should be able to get him back to normal in the jiff.

If we trade him, any other hitting coach in MLB will have him hitting a ton - and we'll all be blaming Kenny.

xil357
05-15-2003, 12:22 PM
I am forced to agree with the overall premise of dropping both Lee and Konerko to bring more speed to the lineup and after much consideration and his apparent awakening from a slump, am dropping my call to place Frank Thomas on waivers (in another thread).

I also agree with Phil Rogers that we need to get Miles at 2B. However, I'd leave Valentin at SS, move Thomas to first and let Jiminez DH. He's shown an ability to get on base from the leadoff position. I also liked the idea of having Frank bat second, and historically he hits better when he plays the field. If he can take the walks it would allow Jiminez to try stealing a few bases. Alternatively, if there is a threat to steal on the bases Frank might see some better pitches.

The lineup, then, looks like this:

DH Jiminez
1B Thomas
RF Ordonez
SS Valentin (hey, why not)
LF Borchard (or Daubach until Borchard is ready)
3B Crede
C Olivo
2B Miles
CF Rios (or another lefty speedster, perhaps obtained in a trade)

Sure there isn't as much power, but its more power than they had in 1990 when Frank first came up, and The Cell still isn't exactly a band-box hitter's park. (Back then Dan Pasqua and Ivan Calderon were the main power threats). And we aren't exactly reaping the benefits of power right now, folks...

I miss Kenny Lofton, Lance Johnson and John Cangelosi....

Juan Pizarro
05-15-2003, 12:56 PM
You gotta be the only person in the world who misses John Cangelosi.

xil357
05-15-2003, 01:14 PM
John Cangelosi is an Orland Park resident (While in college, I delivered pizza to his house in late 1997 and he autographed a photo for me as a tip) and he has exactly one more Worlds Series ring (Marlins, 97) than the rest of the Sox players. Bonus points for beating Cleveland in seven games. Sure he was a role player, but could he ever run...

soxruleEP
05-15-2003, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by xil357

LF Borchard (or Daubach until Borchard is ready)
....

I agree with much of what you've said but here I have to part company--Daubach must never see the outfield unless we are in a desperate situation (e.g. extra inning game and situational substitutions have made him the only option--I would rather see Tony G. in the outfield).

This is in fact not a swipe at Daubach but at Manuel--every game that Daubach has played in the outfield he has created big problems on Defense. (His butchery in right against Seattle being exhibit #1) His lack of speed and instincts make him the worst defensive option we have.

That said--it's not his fault--it's like asking an elephant to tap dance--their knees bend the wrong way.

xil357
05-15-2003, 01:21 PM
Fair enough. I don't get to see the Sox play since I live in Texas. So I have to rely on y'all for scouting reports beyond the game re-caps and box scores. Go with Borchard full-time in left, then, and have Daubach pinch hit and spell Thomas at first and Jiminez at DH.

hold2dibber
05-15-2003, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by soxruleEP
Since it is obvious that something needs to be done to awaken the Sox from their torper, here's a radical proposition offered for comment and debate.

What are major problems now that are not related to performance (i.e. lack of clutch hitting)?

1. Lack of team speed--prevents team from executing as need be in close, low-scoring games.

2. Lack of intensity

Each can only be dealt with by adding/subtracting players.

So . . .

Who can be replaced on the team to deal with these problems?

I propose jettisoning Carlos Lee. Why?

When was the last time you saw him hustle on or off the field? he is the last player off and the last player on. While I hated Pete Rose because I always thought he was a phony hustler, it seems that CLee's basic personality is that of a sluggard. Even in his trimmed-down current self, he only runs when he has to. He needs to go.

Of course, we have to find someone who will take him.

What if we sweeten the pot? What if we add Paul Konerko?

As a pair, they are more attractive than as singles. We should be able to get something worthwhile for them.

But more importantly, it allows for this team to take the field:

1b J. Valentin
2b A. Myles
SS D. Jimenez
3b J. Crede
LF J. Borchardt/A. Rios
CF W. Harris/J. Borchardt
RF M. Ordonez
DH Frank Thomas


In general, I don't disagree with your basic premise premise (i.e., that the Sox have too many slow footed right handed hitters). With that said, they had too many flow-footed right handed hitters last year, too, and the offense was pretty good anyway. If PK, Crede, Maggs, Lee and Thomas were performing at their expected levels, we wouldn't even be having this discussion (and I still think there's plenty of reasons to believe that all of those guys will get in the grove and start putting up good numbers). But I certainly wouldn't have a problem with dealing Lee or PK if it would improve the team. However, the line-up you suggest reeks of the "2nd string quarterback" syndrome. Aaron Miles, while certainly intriguing, has never gotten it done at the MLB level. Joe Borchard isn't even getting it done at the AAA level. And why would anyone think, at this point, that Willie Harris is capable of hitting MLB pitching? Armando Rios is a decent stick off the bench, but he's no starter. As Daver points out, the defense would be even worse. The line-up you suggest would make the Sox faster, but that's it. They would be worse off in basically every other respect.

Now, if you want to talk about dealing Lee and PK for someone who could actually help the team, that's a different story. If the Sox could package those two for Brian Giles, you stick Giles in left and Daubach at first and now you're getting somewhere. If you could deal Lee for J.D. Drew, that'd work, too. I wouldn't have a problem trading those guys, as long as the Sox get players that can help shore up some of the team's deficiencies - I for one wouldn't want Willie Harris, Joe Borchard and Aaron Miles to be the guys I'm counting on ths year.

xil357
05-15-2003, 01:51 PM
I think it is fairly obvious that we would want to get something for Konerko and Lee, and I think it is universal that we want someone who can play a mean left or center field, hit for average from the left side of the plate and run the bases well. That being said, I am skeptical of National League players. While Giles is definitely intriguing, and I like the stats he has put up so far in his career, his age and struggles so far this year concern me. I have a nagging suspicion that he could turn into another Rusty Greer, a 30+ left-handed left fielder who hit for high average whose production dropped when injuries began to take their toll. And isn't there a question about a no-trade clause in his contract? Again, these are just concerns and I would applaud a trade of Lee and Konerko and perhaps even a minor league pitcher for Giles, knowing full well that the players we trade away could flourish in the National League.

Stoky44
05-15-2003, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by soxruleEP


What are major problems now that are not related to performance (i.e. lack of clutch hitting)?

1. Lack of team speed--prevents team from executing as need be in close, low-scoring games.

2. Lack of intensity

Each can only be dealt with by adding/subtracting players.




You take out Jose why? Yes his fielding is not great, but he is the most intense guy on the field. :?:

Hangar18
05-15-2003, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by Stoky44
You take out Jose why? Yes his fielding is not great, but he is the most intense guy on the field. :?:

I agree

soxruleEP
05-16-2003, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by Stoky44
You take out Jose why? Yes his fielding is not great, but he is the most intense guy on the field. :?:

I didn't call for him being "taken out"--you're absolutely correct that he is the intensity leader.

I offered his move to 1B as an option if Konerko was traded.

Daver's argument against Jimenz at SS changed my mind in that regard.

soxruleEP
05-16-2003, 10:33 AM
hold2dibber said:

>>>Now, if you want to talk about dealing Lee and PK for someone who could actually help the team, that's a different story. If the Sox could package those two for Brian Giles, you stick Giles in left and Daubach at first and now you're getting somewhere. If you could deal Lee for J.D. Drew, that'd work, too. I wouldn't have a problem trading those guys, as long as the Sox get players that can help shore up some of the team's deficiencies - <<<

My original line-up transformation was predicated on the idea of what we already have to remake the team.

as usual, hold2dibber makes an excellent point--getting a player who joins the line-up immediately in trade for Konerk and/or Lee would be expected. A solid left fielder and then DAubach at first every day would be a good option.

His other point that the Sox scored plenty of runs last season with the current line-up is true (and the last couple days bodes well for the future--let's see what happens against the Evil Northern Empire--the whole discussion may become moot). I would like to see Lee adn Paulie wake up but my original post came from a feeling that SOMETHING has/had to be done to turn the season around.

Maybe Colon plunking that idiot Hairston (WHY? WHY?) will wake them up a little. They do sound like they are looking forward to taking on the Twins.