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spanishwhite
05-14-2003, 02:36 AM
Olivo (in my opinion) was the ptc of last nites game.

He not only drove in the team's only run but threw out a
potential game tying run.

Besides that he ran out what was to be a potential double play and beat it out. Maybe Harris is the only other Sox player to beat that play. Maybe. But Olivo's attitude and slow progress at the plate tells me he is a future STAR.

Hell, his defense is enough to put him in the lineup.

Bradford on the other hand....?

I dont understand how he successful, but he is..... somewhat.

Either way, we badly needed a catcher they needed a relief pitcher.

The trade turned out equal.

Gotta love Olivo.
KW gets credit from this spanish dude.

GASHWOUND
05-14-2003, 07:28 AM
Originally posted by spanishwhite
Olivo (in my opinion) was the ptc of last nites game.

He not only drove in the team's only run but threw out a
potential game tying run.

Besides that he ran out what was to be a potential double play and beat it out. Maybe Harris is the only other Sox player to beat that play. Maybe. But Olivo's attitude and slow progress at the plate tells me he is a future STAR.

Hell, his defense is enough to put him in the lineup.

Bradford on the other hand....?

I dont understand how he successful, but he is..... somewhat.

Either way, we badly needed a catcher they needed a relief pitcher.

The trade turned out equal.

Gotta love Olivo.
KW gets credit from this spanish dude.

Still, Loaiza threw 7 shut out innings..that's more impressive

MHOUSE
05-14-2003, 08:46 AM
Loaiza is player of the game. Olivo gets a close second. He has a great attitude, great skills and potential. He's going to be a star for the Sox and I hope they sign him up for a long time. I like this kid a lot. Bradford is a good enough reliever (cool motion :smile: ), but they're almost dime a dozen and getting a future star position player for him is a steal. Go KW on this one.

boog_alou
05-14-2003, 10:40 AM
It is still too soon to make a call on this trade. The A's are currently getting the best of the trade since Bradford has done well for them and really proven himself at the major league level. However, Olivo is a very promising prospect at a key position.

If Olivo eventually fulfills his promise (as a Chisox), then the Sox will have gotten the better of the deal. If Olivo never blossoms, advantage A's.

Kilroy
05-14-2003, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by boog_alou
It is still too soon to make a call on this trade. The A's are currently getting the best of the trade since Bradford has done well for them and really proven himself at the major league level. However, Olivo is a very promising prospect at a key position.

If Olivo eventually fulfills his promise (as a Chisox), then the Sox will have gotten the better of the deal. If Olivo never blossoms, advantage A's.

Great handle boog_alou!

Foulke You
05-14-2003, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by boog_alou
It is still too soon to make a call on this trade. The A's are currently getting the best of the trade since Bradford has done well for them and really proven himself at the major league level. However, Olivo is a very promising prospect at a key position.

If Olivo eventually fulfills his promise (as a Chisox), then the Sox will have gotten the better of the deal. If Olivo never blossoms, advantage A's.

I think you hit the nail on the head boog. Olivo looks very promising but the jury is still out. We gave up an effective major league ready setup man for a future catcher. Defensively, Olivo already in the upper bracket of MLB catchers with that cannon arm of his. Now we just need to get him to hit MLB pitching regularly. Hopefully, in 2 years we'll look back at giving Bradford for Olivo as one of the better steals since Navarro/Snyder for Valentin/Eldred.

MarkEdward
05-14-2003, 01:04 PM
Right now, the A's aren't hurting for catching. Ramon Hernandez is tearing up the majors, Mark Johnson's a competent back-up (although off to a slow start, I'd still take him over Sandy), Adam Melhuse and Mike Rose are hitting well in AAA, and Jeremy Brown is one of the best catching prospects in America.

I'd say this trade was even, with a slight edge to the Sox.

Randar68
05-14-2003, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Right now, the A's aren't hurting for catching. Ramon Hernandez is tearing up the majors, Mark Johnson's a competent back-up (although off to a slow start, I'd still take him over Sandy), Adam Melhuse and Mike Rose are hitting well in AAA, and Jeremy Brown is one of the best catching prospects in America.

I'd say this trade was even, with a slight edge to the Sox.

Olivo has more talent than any of the players you listed.

I am not going to wait 3 years to decide if this was a good trade or not. The Sox have/had a gaping hole at Catcher throughout their system and went out and got a potential future All-Star for a middle reliever. They scouted him correctly. Apparently, Beane did not.

People are so willing and ready to crucify KW for anything that they are making excuses how this might still have turned out badly. Nobody can say 3-4 years down the road due to injuries, etc. Right now, that was one hell of a trade for the Sox.

Quality middle relievers are a dime a dozen. Quality catchers are harder to find than quality players at any other position.

boog_alou
05-14-2003, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Olivo has more talent than any of the players you listed.

I am not going to wait 3 years to decide if this was a good trade or not. The Sox have/had a gaping hole at Catcher throughout their system and went out and got a potential future All-Star for a middle reliever. They scouted him correctly. Apparently, Beane did not.

Right now, that was one hell of a trade for the Sox.

Quality middle relievers are a dime a dozen. Quality catchers are harder to find than quality players at any other position.
How can you say right now that it was a hell of a trade in favor of the Sox? Olivo has done almost nothing for the Sox. If he doesn't pan out, then the trade will be hugely in favor of the A's, because Bradford has done well for them.

Now, if Olivo turns into a good or great ML catcher, then it would definitely be in the Sox favor.

It is in favor of the Sox based on potential, but until that potential is realized, it is simply too soon to make a call.

Daver
05-14-2003, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by boog_alou
How can you say right now that it was a hell of a trade in favor of the Sox? Olivo has done almost nothing for the Sox. If he doesn't pan out, then the trade will be hugely in favor of the A's, because Bradford has done well for them.

Now, if Olivo turns into a good or great ML catcher, then it would definitely be in the Sox favor.

It is in favor of the Sox based on potential, but until that potential is realized, it is simply too soon to make a call.

Olivo is the best catcher the Sox have at any level of the system right now,reaching his potential is icing on the cake.

boog_alou
05-14-2003, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by daver
Olivo is the best catcher the Sox have at any level of the system right now,reaching his potential is icing on the cake.
So, the trade is equal or in the Sox favor as long as the Sox got a catcher that was better than the poor catchers in the Sox system? That doesn't make much sense to me. If we are going by current production, Bradford is doing a lot more for the A's than Olivo is doing for the Sox. So, right now it is in the A's favor. If Olivo blossoms and becomes a good or great catcher, it tips to the Sox favor.

Iwritecode
05-14-2003, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by boog_alou
So, the trade is equal or in the Sox favor as long as the Sox got a catcher that was better than the poor catchers in the Sox system? That doesn't make much sense to me. If we are going by current production, Bradford is doing a lot more for the A's than Olivo is doing for the Sox. So, right now it is in the A's favor. If Olivo blossoms and becomes a good or great catcher, it tips to the Sox favor.

It's extremely hard to compare production between a relief pitcher and a catcher. I'd say that Olivo done quite a bit for the Sox on the defensive side. Being in the AL, anything he does offensively is more than Bradford can claim...

boog_alou
05-14-2003, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
It's extremely hard to compare production between a relief pitcher and a catcher. I'd say that Olivo done quite a bit for the Sox on the defensive side. Being in the AL, anything he does offensively is more than Bradford can claim...
Olivo has 68 major league at bats with a .708 OPS and 6 rbi.

Bradford has had
2001 - 36.2 ip, 2.70 era
2002 - 75.1 ip, 3.11 era
2003 - 18.2 ip, 3.38 era

add to that 8 wins, 4 Saves and 33 Holds.

I think if we are looking at production at the major league level from that trade to date, I'll give the clear advantage to Oakland. Again, if and when Olivo blossoms, the scale would tilt the other way.

Dadawg_77
05-14-2003, 02:17 PM
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/current/rrereport03.html

Some advanced stats for relief pitchers, such as Run prevents, inherited runners prevented from scoring. Bradford is list in the top 30 in MLB at number 28 in Adjusted Runs Prevented. Kelly Wunsch is the only Sox listed in the top 30.

Iwritecode
05-14-2003, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by boog_alou
So, the trade is equal or in the Sox favor as long as the Sox got a catcher that was better than the poor catchers in the Sox system? That doesn't make much sense to me. If we are going by current production, Bradford is doing a lot more for the A's than Olivo is doing for the Sox. So, right now it is in the A's favor. If Olivo blossoms and becomes a good or great catcher, it tips to the Sox favor.

Isn't that the point of most trades? To fill in a weakness? I'd say the Sox need for a back-up catcher was greater than the A's need for a relief pitcher. That should factor in somewhat when evaluating the trade.

TheBigHurt
05-14-2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by GASHWOUND
Still, Loaiza threw 7 shut out innings..that's more impressive
YUP, I agree plus when your team only gets 1 run BE GOOD

boog_alou
05-14-2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Isn't that the point of most trades? To fill in a weakness? I'd say the Sox need for a back-up catcher was greater than the A's need for a relief pitcher. That should factor in somewhat when evaluating the trade.
Granted...it is a factor. But how much better has Olivo been than the alternatives. Alomar plus misc. scrub could put together something near a .700 OPS. And the throwing arm is impressive, but how many bases has that taken away from the opposition. I still think Bradford's production has been impressive and light years more than Olivo's.

JUGGERNAUT
05-14-2003, 02:45 PM
Think of this trade as a scale. Right now it's tipped on the A's side. But if Olivo finishes the year > 800 OPS, the scale becomes balanced because Bradford is at best a setup man.

boog_alou
05-14-2003, 02:48 PM
If Olivo ends the season with an OPS over .800, I'll eat my shoe.

JUGGERNAUT
05-14-2003, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by boog_alou
If Olivo ends the season with an OPS over .800, I'll eat my shoe.

Ok Mr soon to be eating shoe eater, define the minimum performance goals Olivo must reach this year to balance the scale in this trade.

Randar68
05-14-2003, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Isn't that the point of most trades? To fill in a weakness? I'd say the Sox need for a back-up catcher was greater than the A's need for a relief pitcher. That should factor in somewhat when evaluating the trade.

The point is, are you going to evaluate a trade from the day it is made until the day both players retire?

You can only evaluate it based off the needs it fills for your team as opposed to what you gave up to fill that need. If Oakland had no need for a catcher and one for a middle reliever, then, in their opinion, they won that trade. If we had a desperate need at Catcher and filled it admirably for a middle reliever we didn't need/want, then in the Sox' opinion, they clearly got the better of it.

Olivo was the number 2 player in the Sox System this past year, for a freaking right-handed specialist middle reliever that has pitched a whopping 130.2 innings over the past 3 years!

Last year in AA, Olivo had an .860 OPS. He won't get there this year, but his power is only going to improve and he isn't yet comfortable enough at the plate to be taking the walks he has the last couple seasons. Once he does that, he will be a Gold Glove quality catcher with an .800+ OPS. Please find me the list of those currently in the majors. I will guarantee you one thing. It's really short.

Bradford will never be any better than he is now.

Randar68
05-14-2003, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by boog_alou
If Olivo ends the season with an OPS over .800, I'll eat my shoe.

By the way, Olivo has a .709 OPS with a .241 average and only 4 walks and has steadily improved at the plate. If he finishes in the .270 range as I expect, you'll be chewing some rubber and leather.

Let met me know how that shoe tastes on October 1st.

boog_alou
05-14-2003, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
By the way, Olivo has a .709 OPS with a .241 average and only 4 walks and has steadily improved at the plate. If he finishes in the .270 range as I expect, you'll be chewing some rubber and leather.

Let met me know how that shoe tastes on October 1st.
The problem is that I'm Dutch, so I wear wooden shoes.

Daver
05-14-2003, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by boog_alou
The problem is that I'm Dutch, so I wear wooden shoes.

Boil them and add Tabasco.

hold2dibber
05-14-2003, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by daver
Boil them and add Tabasco.

That's my basic cooking philosophy for all things.

jeremyb1
05-14-2003, 03:53 PM
as some others have said, i like olivo a lot and am very happy we have him but i think its completely wrong to dismiss bradford as "a dime a dozen" just because he's a middle reliever. its not very easy to snap your fingers and come up with a setup man who can post an era in the low threes or twos. other than foulke and marte who's pulled that off for us the last few years? its not so easy.

maurice
05-14-2003, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
its not very easy to snap your fingers and come up with a setup man who can post an era in the low threes or twos.

It's relatively easy -- compared to acquiring a good, two-way catcher. The relative value of a player depends upon the position he plays. Some positions are more valuable than others. To cite a couple of obvious examples: (1) a starting pitcher with a 3.00 ERA is much more valuable than a relief pitcher with a 3.00 ERA; and (2) a solid defensive catcher with an .800 OPS is way more valuable than a solid defensive LF with an .800 OPS.

While it can be difficult to compare pitchers to position players, I must agree with Randar that a solid two-way catcher (Olivo) is significantly more valuable and more difficult to acqurie than a solid middle reliever (Bradford). Unless Olivo suffers a serious injury or flames out, KW won this trade.

This trade also demonstrates the problem with the Sox system -- tons of quality players in the least valuable positions (2B, RP, etc.) and fewer quality players in the most important positions (SP, SS, C, etc.).

hold2dibber
05-14-2003, 04:41 PM
I don't think you have to wait to say that KW won this trade. Based on potential alone and Olivo's progress so far, I'd do that trade again in a heartbeat. Would you trade Olivo back for Bradford right now? Hell no. Even if it turns out that Olivo doesn't reach his potential, the fact is, it was a smart trade and a good "risk" to trade a good middle relief guy for a C with a ton of tools. You do that trade every time, IMHO.

T Dog
05-14-2003, 05:52 PM
Bradford is in a position with Oakland where he can get the most out of what he can do. He never will be the number one pitcher out of the bullpen. In the Sox bullpen, he was an expendable pitcher. Certainly he wouldn't be as valuable as a starting catcher. I always was and continue to be excited about the deal from the Sox perspective.

Considering what the Phillies got from the Braves for a catching prospect that I wouldn't stack up against Olivio, the A's were robbed.

Randar68
05-15-2003, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by T Dog
Considering what the Phillies got from the Braves for a catching prospect that I wouldn't stack up against Olivio, the A's were robbed.

Estrada isn't much of a prospect. This isn't a fair comparison, as that deal was purely about the money and the ~10 million Millwood was set to make in arbitration. It was Millwood or Maddux, and they chose Maddux.

I can't believe that was all they could get in the market, to a team in their own division? I think the Braves really blew the fat one on that trade.