PDA

View Full Version : All you Koch doubters


A.T. Money
05-13-2003, 09:35 PM
How do you like him now? He was about as bad ass as I've ever seen him right there. Hopefully he's all worked out now.

As Hawk would say....

YEEEEEEEEESSSSS!!!

MHOUSE
05-13-2003, 09:36 PM
Loaiza is the player of the game. What a great game in general. I doubter Koch for sure and who wouldn't have the way he was pitching. Hopefully this will get him going and if anything get his value up. Lets go guys!

TornLabrum
05-13-2003, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by SoxDemon
How do you like him now? He was about as bad ass as I've ever seen him right there. Hopefully he's all worked out now.

As Hawk would say....

YEEEEEEEEESSSSS!!!

I can say this much for him...he can mow down the vaunted Baltimore Orioles. I'm going to wait and see.

delben91
05-13-2003, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
I can say this much for him...he can mow down the vaunted Baltimore Orioles. I'm going to wait and see.

By the same token, those same Orioles were a game better than our Sox coming into today. Man... :(:

LuvSox
05-13-2003, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
I can say this much for him...he can mow down the vaunted Baltimore Orioles. I'm going to wait and see.

Patience comes with time, eh? Seems like we get burned every year.

WinningUgly!
05-13-2003, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by SoxDemon
How do you like him now? He was about as bad ass as I've ever seen him right there. Hopefully he's all worked out now.

As Hawk would say....

YEEEEEEEEESSSSS!!!

Maybe watching Marte register the last few saves lit the fire in Koch. Nice to see 3 of our offseason pick-ups combine for the goose egg. Hopefully now the bullpen will start settling into their roles & pitch like they are capable of doing. I still can't believe how good Loaiza is.

Lip Man 1
05-13-2003, 09:47 PM
One game does not a season make. We'll see.....however a bigger question is one run?

Lip

WinningUgly!
05-13-2003, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
One game does not a season make.

It does if it's the last game of the season & you are playing against a team that you are tied with for the final playoff spot. :)


This team has bottomed out to the point where they (along with the fans) had better get excited about a single victory. One game does not a season make, but one game can be a turning point & this team is in desperate need of one. Here's to hoping this is it. :gulp:

MRKARNO
05-13-2003, 10:06 PM
I'm still a bit worried about Koch. Nothing he threw looked like it could possibly go for a home run, but either:

A. Koch's ability to trick batters is THAT good or

B. Koch needs to work on control

a few pitches that I didn't like, for instance, the fastball that just stayed left. I dont like to see that. Bartolo does that too sometimes and I don't think they'll get by with that

Jurr
05-13-2003, 10:06 PM
Maybe the Sox are just so happy to get away from the gauntlet of Oakland (that have owned the high and mighty yanks as well) and Seattle (who are en fuego) with only a six game deficit in the Central, that they can get focused now and make a run at this thing. Their hatred for Minnesota is looming large in my mind, and they're coming up soon. There's nothing to take the Sox' focus and anger for each other away (thus improving chemistry) than going against a club that they all have bad blood against. The bats are waking up, even though the baserunning brains aren't. But, that's correctable, as long as the plate focus is coming back. Also, hitters love when pitchers say, "I've got this one tonight" and pull the close 1-0 game out. The hitters are more prone to reciprocate. The best example is Cal Eldred in 2000. He'd run into a wall and get down big, but the boys seemed to always rise up to the occasion and take him off the hook. That's 'cause Eldred was getting the hitters' backs on occasion as well. That's huge.
This spell in the season is huge. We need to get things going, forget about the West divison chamber of horrors (that every team dreads, by the way), and get going.

lowesox
05-13-2003, 10:09 PM
1) Jerry Manuel deserves credit for sticking Koch out there. It took big balls. And hopefully more good will come of it.

2) Wouldn't it be weird if Esteban Loaiza is the player to turn this team around? Believe me, people in Toronto would find that very, very weird.

HawkDJ
05-13-2003, 10:20 PM
He claims to have a fixed a problem that took 5-10 MPH off his fastball.

Unregistered
05-13-2003, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by Jurr
Maybe the Sox are just so happy to get away from the gauntlet of Oakland (that have owned the high and mighty yanks as well) and Seattle (who are en fuego) with only a six game deficit in the Central, that they can get focused now and make a run at this thing. Uh oh... I smell a "turning point"!

you'll have to excuse me for being a bit weary this time...

WhiteSoxWinner
05-13-2003, 10:28 PM
Hey, I'm glad to see Koch get it turned around. He will be a key to this team. Sure Marte could close, but then we lose a grat bridge from the eighth to the ninth. Koch was supposed to close, and he needs to pull it together in order for this team to succeed. Nice game Billy, now string a few good ones together.

Konerkoholic
05-13-2003, 10:33 PM
Koch has got to use that breaking ball more often as his out pitch, like he did tonight. That thing is a dandy.

chisox06
05-13-2003, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
One game does not a season make. We'll see.....however a bigger question is one run?

Lip

Cant lose a game when the other team has 0.

jeremyb1
05-14-2003, 03:00 AM
i thought koch looked excellent tonight. however, that doesn't erase what has happened already, he'll have to pitch pretty well the rest of the way to get that era down. if he's lights out (or close to it) the rest of the season, i'll be pleased.

spanishwhite
05-14-2003, 03:23 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
I can say this much for him...he can mow down the vaunted Baltimore Orioles. I'm going to wait and see.

Well, this was a team that was 18-19 and beat Pedro (not many teams can say that.)

But, Koch needs to prove a lot more. I say Koch should be starting the ninth with Marte on stand-by for the most part. With gordon coming around and Glover being pretty much solid, it shouldnt be much of a problem especially when you have one of the best cut-fastballs in the minors joining the staff in Sanders (lefty).

PS. I forgot about Wuncsh's 1 hit in 11 innings. We should trade for some of Boston's hitting for one of our great lefties.

MHOUSE
05-14-2003, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by spanishwhite
Well, this was a team that was 18-19 and beat Pedro (not many teams can say that.)

But, Koch needs to prove a lot more. I say Koch should be starting the ninth with Marte on stand-by for the most part. With gordon coming around and Glover being pretty much solid, it shouldnt be much of a problem especially when you have one of the best cut-fastballs in the minors joining the staff in Sanders (lefty).

PS. I forgot about Wuncsh's 1 hit in 11 innings. We should trade for some of Boston's hitting for one of our great lefties.

agreed. Koch had a good game, but he needs to string together like 10 with a bunch of saves to get trust back and his massive ERA down. I hope he does this and that last night was a starting point for the Billy Goat we traded for.

Why trade Wunsch? He's awesome! I like having two really good lefties in the bullpen and Sanders is good in longer stints. Keep it the way it is.

boog_alou
05-14-2003, 09:29 AM
Someone said that Koch claims to have fixed a problem that decreased his velocity 5-10 mph. All season I've seen his fastball consistently register at 92-96. What was his velocity like last night?

TheBigHurt
05-14-2003, 09:34 AM
I am glad to say the least that Koch picked up the save....HOPEFULLY this leads to many more

Iwritecode
05-14-2003, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by boog_alou
Someone said that Koch claims to have fixed a problem that decreased his velocity 5-10 mph. All season I've seen his fastball consistently register at 92-96. What was his velocity like last night?

Welcome aboard Boog! I see you finally made the jump.

boog_alou
05-14-2003, 09:53 AM
Thanks for the welcome, Iwritecode. I will still be posting at ESPN.com, but I appreciate another good forum for Sox chat.

I'm still figuring this place out and working the bugs out. For instance, how do you include the text of the message you are repying to, in your reply?

gosox41
05-14-2003, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by SoxDemon
How do you like him now? He was about as bad ass as I've ever seen him right there. Hopefully he's all worked out now.

As Hawk would say....

YEEEEEEEEESSSSS!!!



It's hard to get excited over 1 good outing. Hopefully it'll be a start, but I'm hardly optimistic about this guy.

Let's see him put together a string of good outings. Show me he's better then Foulke.

Bob

Iwritecode
05-14-2003, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by boog_alou
Thanks for the welcome, Iwritecode. I will still be posting at ESPN.com, but I appreciate another good forum for Sox chat.

I'm still figuring this place out and working the bugs out. For instance, how do you include the text of the message you are repying to, in your reply?

Just click the "quote" button on the bottom of the post. If you want to quote more than one person, there are check boxes on the bottom right. Just check each post you want to quote and click "quote selected" at the bottom of the thread.

WinningUgly!
05-14-2003, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by boog_alou
Thanks for the welcome, Iwritecode. I will still be posting at ESPN.com, but I appreciate another good forum for Sox chat.

I'm still figuring this place out and working the bugs out. For instance, how do you include the text of the message you are repying to, in your reply?

Click on the http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/quote.gif button in the message you want to reply to.

Welcome aboard! :gulp:

boog_alou
05-14-2003, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by Iwritecode


Just click the "quote" button on the bottom of the post. If you want to quote more than one person, there are check boxes on the bottom right. Just check each post you want to quote and click "quote selected" at the bottom of the thread.


Originally posted by WinningUgly!


Click on the http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/quote.gif button in the message you want to reply to.

Welcome aboard! :gulp:

Thanks for the help, guys.

I will do my best to add something of value to the Sox talk (albeit from an anti-fan perspective).

Rocky Soprano
05-14-2003, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by boog_alou
Someone said that Koch claims to have fixed a problem that decreased his velocity 5-10 mph. All season I've seen his fastball consistently register at 92-96. What was his velocity like last night?


The fastest I saw was 97.

boog_alou
05-14-2003, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
The fastest I saw was 97.

Well, that is an improvement at least.

Now, if he could get some movement on that fastball, he'd be in great shape. A 94 mph fastball with decent movement would be more effective than his over-hyped high-90's fastball.

JUGGERNAUT
05-14-2003, 11:30 AM
has given up 3 ER in his last 5 ip, but of course the A's picked him up & he only suffered 1 BS & 0 losses.

boog_alou
05-14-2003, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by espnjohn1
has given up 3 ER in his last 5 ip, but of course the A's picked him up & he only suffered 1 BS & 0 losses.
And, in that 5.1 ip, he's bown one save, but recorded three saves. Basically, in those 4 appearances, he had one bad outing, and three good outings (including one save where he gave up a run).

Johnny, do you remember predicting that at the end of May Koch would lead the league in Saves and Foulke would be demoted from the closer job in Oakland? At the moment it appears the opposite is coming true.

JUGGERNAUT
05-14-2003, 11:44 AM
My prediction was that Koch would have more scoreless games & innings pitched than Foulke. Consistent with every other year.

The SOX are no A's. Not now anyways.
When a team consistently scores in the bottom of the 9th to win the game that's a closer's dream come true.

fhqwhgads
05-14-2003, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by spanishwhite
Well, this was a team that was 18-19 and beat Pedro (not many teams can say that.)

Yep, the Orioles and the...

GO TWINS!
:)

boog_alou
05-14-2003, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by espnjohn1
My prediction was that Koch would have more scoreless games & innings pitched than Foulke. Consistent with every other year.

The SOX are no A's. Not now anyways.
When a team consistently scores in the bottom of the 9th to win the game that's a closer's dream come true.
Actually you did make the prediction I stated earlier on the ESPN.com board. However, unless and until I find the link to it (probably dead by now), I'll dispense with that argument.

And with regard to the A's scoring in the ninth to win the game, that doesn't have anything to do with Foulke getting those saves, does it? Foulke didn't get wins in any of those last 4 appearances...he got 3 Saves.

JUGGERNAUT
05-14-2003, 12:08 PM
Foulke didn't get wins in any of those last 4 appearances...he got 3 Saves.

He got a win in the blown save, & in the other game he had a 5 run lead to protect so the runs he surrendered actually made him eligible for a save.

boog_alou
05-14-2003, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by espnjohn1
He got a win in the blown save, & in the other game he had a 5 run lead to protect so the runs he surrendered actually made him eligible for a save.
You are right with regard to him getting the Win after the BS, but wrong on the other.

A pitcher cannot give up runs to make himself eligible for a Save. It is either a Save situation when he enters the game or not. It was a Save situation because when he came into the game in the 8th inning, the bases were loaded and the A's were up 8-3. Therefore the tying run was on deck (one of the ways you get a save opp. is if the tying run is if you come in when the tying run is on base, at the plate or on deck).

He let an inherited runner score and he gave up a run. But he did what he had to to get the Save...that is what a good closer does.

JUGGERNAUT
05-14-2003, 12:54 PM
[It is either a Save situation when he enters the game or not. It was a Save situation because when he came into the game in the 8th inning, the bases were loaded and the A's were up 8-3. Therefore the tying run was on deck (one of the ways you get a save opp. is if the tying run is if you come in when the tying run is on base, at the plate or on deck).
[/B]

As to whether a save situation can be created within an inning, I'm checking on that.

As for the rest, it's true a save situation requires that the tying run comes to the plate. Being on base is kind of obvious. As for the on deck, I think that might require less than 2 outs. Checking on that as well.

Feel free to include any references yourself.

boog_alou
05-14-2003, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by espnjohn1
As to whether a save situation can be created within an inning, I'm checking on that.

As for the rest, it's true a save situation requires that the tying run comes to the plate. Being on base is kind of obvious. As for the on deck, I think that might require less than 2 outs. Checking on that as well.

Feel free to include any references yourself.
I've gotten this from various rulebook links I've clicked on in other discussions. I don't have one handy.

JUGGERNAUT
05-14-2003, 01:26 PM
http://64.58.76.136/search/cache?p=%2bsave%2bsituation%2brule&url=BtnFCr887YgC:espn.go.com/mlb/s/2000/0523/546788.html

Save rule
(1,2) last non winning pitcher in a win
and
(3) game situations: any 1
a: enters with no more than 3+ run lead
b: enter with potential tying run ob, ab, or od (one of the 1st 2 batsmen he faces)
c: pitches effectively for at 3 ip
(4) only 1 save awarded per game

b: implies less than 2 outs when adding the od batsmen

In Foulke's case, he entered a bases loaded, 2 out, 8-4 situation. He gave up a run & then earned the save in the 9th.

boog_alou
05-14-2003, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by espnjohn1
http://64.58.76.136/search/cache?p=%2bsave%2bsituation%2brule&url=BtnFCr887YgC:espn.go.com/mlb/s/2000/0523/546788.html

(3) game situations: any 1
a: enters with no more than 3+ run lead
b: enter with potential tying run ob, ab, or od (one of the 1st 2

b: implies less than 2 outs when adding the od batsmen

In Foulke's case, he entered a bases loaded, 2 out, 8-4 situation. He gave up a run & then earned the save in the 9th.
No, it doesn't imply anything of the sort. It says if the tying run is on deck, then it is a save situation, period. The rule is the rule.

Save situation is determined by the game situation when the pitcher enters the game. It was a save situation when he entered the game because tying run was on deck (per the above rule). He did not give up the lead, and so he recorded the Save.

He did not give up a run, thus making it a Save situation. Per the rule, that is not possible. It was a Save situation when he entered the game.

JUGGERNAUT
05-14-2003, 01:40 PM
You're wrong. The on-deck batsmen was never a factor because Foulke entered the game with the tying run at the plate.

However; that in itself did not earn him the save. He still had to pitch the 9th to be recorded as the last non-winning pitcher to earn the save.

boog_alou
05-14-2003, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by espnjohn1
You're wrong. The on-deck batsmen was never a factor because Foulke entered the game with the tying run at the plate.

However; that in itself did not earn him the save. He still had to pitch the 9th to be recorded as the last non-winning pitcher to earn the save.
Actually, he entered the game with the bases loaded and the A's up 8-3. So, where was the tying run? On deck.

No, coming into the game didn't earn him the save. He did have to maintain the lead and finish the game. However, you said that giving up a run made it a save situation. That is not true. The game situation when he entered the game made it a save situation.

So, the bottom line is it was a save opp. and he converted it, as a good closer should. It was not a situation where his failure made it into a save opp., and then he convertedit.

JUGGERNAUT
05-14-2003, 01:50 PM
Enters the game in the 8th inning with an 8-4 lead, 2 outs & 1 MOB. He surrenders a run in the 8th & surrenders a run in the 9th.

Iwritecode
05-14-2003, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by boog_alou
No, it doesn't imply anything of the sort. It says if the tying run is on deck, then it is a save situation, period. The rule is the rule.

Save situation is determined by the game situation when the pitcher enters the game. It was a save situation when he entered the game because tying run was on deck (per the above rule). He did not give up the lead, and so he recorded the Save.

He did not give up a run, thus making it a Save situation. Per the rule, that is not possible. It was a Save situation when he entered the game.

I think Boog's right here.

Can I just say that if this same situation came up last year, I have no doubt that Foulke would have found some way to blow the save? I don't recall Foulke pitching more than 1 effective inning in a single game while wearing a Sox uni. Yet Manuel continued to bring him in in the 8th more than a few times...

Iwritecode
05-14-2003, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by espnjohn1
Enters the game in the 8th inning with an 8-4 lead, 2 outs & 1 MOB. He surrenders a run in the 8th & surrenders a run in the 9th.

Nope. He entered the game with more than a 3-run lead and the potential tying run wasn't ob, ab, or od. He also didn't pitch effectively for at least 3 innings.

boog_alou
05-14-2003, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by espnjohn1
Enters the game in the 8th inning with an 8-4 lead, 2 outs & 1 MOB. He surrenders a run in the 8th & surrenders a run in the 9th.
If he came in in the 8th with the score 8-4, gave up a run that inning and then another in the 9th, then the final would have been 8-6. But, instead the final was 8-5. You missed more details as well:

He entered the game in the 8th inning with an 8-3 lead, 2 outs and the bases loaded. He surrendered one run in the 8th and another in the 9th.

From ESPN gamelog:

<i> CHICAGO SOX 8TH
-Top of the 8th inning
-M Ordonez struck out swinging.
-P Konerko grounded out to third.
-J Crede singled to center.
-C Lee singled to left, J Crede to second.
-J Fikac relieved J Mecir.
-M Olivo hit by pitch, J Crede to third, C Lee to second.
-D Jimenez walked, J Crede scored, C Lee to third, M Olivo to second.
-K Foulke relieved J Fikac.
-B Daubach hit for W Harris.
-B Daubach walked, C Lee scored, M Olivo to third, D Jimenez to second.
-T Graffanino grounded out to third.

2 runs, 2 hits, 0 errors
Chicago Sox 4, Oakland 8</i>

So, to hopefully put the issue to bed. He entered the game with a 5 run lead, but the bases loaded, so the tying run was on deck. Hence it was a save situation. He held the lead and finished the game. That is why he got the save. Good job.

JUGGERNAUT
05-14-2003, 02:04 PM
Yes he gave up another in the 9th.

But you didn't answer the hypothetical.
Likewise you pointed out the weakness in the save stat itself. Why should he be credited with a save entering a game with a 5 run lead & 2 outs?

And no. I would not call 2er in 1.1ip a good outing.

boog_alou
05-14-2003, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by espnjohn1
You're wrong. Look at the box score.
The A's surrendered 2 runs in the 8th.
The SOX scored their 4th run before Foulke entered the game.
Yes, the A's surrendered 2 runs in the 8th. The inning started with the score 8-2. One run came in before Foulke entered the game. He came into the game with the score 8-3. The he allowed one of the inherited runners to score. The inning ended with the score 8-4. (check out the gamelog...it's all in there).

Iwritecode
05-14-2003, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by espnjohn1
You're wrong. Look at the box score.
The A's surrendered 2 runs in the 8th.
The SOX scored their 4th run before Foulke entered the game.

Trust me John, the score was 8 - 3 when Foulke entered the game. At the end of the inning the score was 8 - 4 and the Sox scored 2 runs. That means it was 8 - 2 at the top of the inning.

CHICAGO SOX 8TH
-Top of the 8th inning
-M Ordonez struck out swinging.
-P Konerko grounded out to third.
-J Crede singled to center.
-C Lee singled to left, J Crede to second.
-J Fikac relieved J Mecir.
-M Olivo hit by pitch, J Crede to third, C Lee to second.
-D Jimenez walked, J Crede scored , C Lee to third, M Olivo to second. <---This is when the first run scored making it 8 - 3.
-K Foulke relieved J Fikac. <--- This is where Foulke enters. Notice that the bases are loaded with the tying run on deck
-B Daubach hit for W Harris.
-B Daubach walked, C Lee scored, M Olivo to third, D Jimenez to second. <--- This is where the second run scored making it 8 - 4.
-T Graffanino grounded out to third.

2 runs, 2 hits, 0 errors
Chicago Sox 4, Oakland 8

Paulwny
05-14-2003, 02:19 PM
This thread may pass the tomato thread, unreal.

boog_alou
05-14-2003, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
This thread may pass the tomato thread, unreal.
We've spent too long on a factual dispute. The facts have been verified. Now we can move on.

Iwritecode
05-14-2003, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
This thread may pass the tomato thread, unreal.

For number of posts or for sheer uselessness?

Paulwny
05-14-2003, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
For number of posts or for sheer uselessness?

BOTH !!!!!!!!!!!!! :smile:

Dadawg_77
05-14-2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by espnjohn1
Yes he gave up another in the 9th.

But you didn't answer the hypothetical.
Likewise you pointed out the weakness in the save stat itself. Why should he be credited with a save entering a game with a 5 run lead & 2 outs?

And no. I would not call 2er in 1.1ip a good outing.

One ER, since the runner who scored when Foulke walked BD wouldn't be charged to Foulke.

JUGGERNAUT
05-14-2003, 02:32 PM
Because Foulke's poor performance in 1 game is not really what this thread is about.

It's about Billy Koch & the never ending comparison to Keith Foulke.

But I appreciate your time & effort in showing how stupid it is for Foulke to be credited with a save for 2r over 1.1ip in a game he entered with a 5r lead.

For you information:
scoreless games/gm appearances &
scoreless ip/total ip

Koch 12 sg/18 gp & 12 sip/18 ip
Foulk 12 sg/17 gp & 12 sip/19.2 ip

Daver
05-14-2003, 02:41 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/daver/deadhorse.gif

Paulwny
05-14-2003, 02:44 PM
Daver, EXCELLENT !!!!!! I'm still laughing

boog_alou
05-14-2003, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by espnjohn1
Yes he gave up another in the 9th.

But you didn't answer the hypothetical.
Likewise you pointed out the weakness in the save stat itself. Why should he be credited with a save entering a game with a 5 run lead & 2 outs?

And no. I would not call 2er in 1.1ip a good outing.
So, since you got the Save rule wrong and misunderstood what happened in the game, now you are turning against the Save stat itself? That's classic espnjohn1

He came into a game situation. Bases loaded in the 8th, tying run on deck. He needed to stop the bleeding. He then held the lead for the rest of the game. That is a Save. He did his job.

And no, it is not a great outing to give up 1 er in 1.1 ip, but when you are a Closer it is your job to get that save. And if you have a big lead, you can afford to let one or two in. He bent, but he didn't break. He got the job done. More than you can say about Koch most of this season.

boog_alou
05-14-2003, 02:46 PM
Beating dead horses is what Johnny and I do. It is an unfortunate reality.

JUGGERNAUT
05-14-2003, 02:50 PM
In a thread titled : All you Koch doubters

this is all that needs to be said ...

For you information:
scoreless games/gm appearances &
scoreless ip/total ip

Koch 12 sg/18 gp & 12 sip/18 ip
Foulk 12 sg/17 gp & 12 sip/19.2 ip

Foulke has a slight lead which I am certain he will lose before the season ends.

TheBigHurt
05-14-2003, 03:03 PM
HERE ya go, daver:

Iwritecode
05-14-2003, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
BOTH !!!!!!!!!!!!! :smile:

Anyone else notice this similarity?

Boog = BMR - bad attitude.

I've noticed the posts on 3-4 threads have increased dramatically with responses to his posts. The only difference is that most of it is intelligent debate and nobody has lost their temper yet...

:smile:

boog_alou
05-14-2003, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Anyone else notice this similarity?

Boog = BMR - bad attitude.

I've noticed the posts on 3-4 threads have increased dramatically with responses to his posts. The only difference is that most of it is intelligent debate and nobody has lost their temper yet...

:smile:
Emphasis on YET...lol

Iwritecode
05-14-2003, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by boog_alou
Emphasis on YET...lol

I don't know if you ever had the pleasure of "meeting" BMR. He would've angered somebody with his first post... :D:

Ventura23Fan
05-15-2003, 01:34 AM
Originally posted by espnjohn1
In a thread titled : All you Koch doubters

this is all that needs to be said ...

For you information:
scoreless games/gm appearances &
scoreless ip/total ip

Koch 12 sg/18 gp & 12 sip/18 ip
Foulk 12 sg/17 gp & 12 sip/19.2 ip

Foulke has a slight lead which I am certain he will lose before the season ends.

When comparing two hitters, do you just look at one or two stats, say AVG or RBI, or do you look at several, e.g., SLG, RBI, AVG, etc.? I don't look at one or two, I look at several. Nor do I look at only one or two stats when comparing pitchers. And if I were to compare pitchers based on one or two stats, I would not choose the stats you have selected.

Hypothetical #1: Pitcher A enters game one of a doubleheader in the top of the ninth with a two run lead. He gives up a run but gets the save. He does the same in the second game as well. Meanwhile, in another doubleheader, Pitcher B enters the first game in the top of the ninth with a two run lead and gives up zero runs to earn the save. He enters the same situation in the second game, but gives up two runs for a blown save. I would say that Pitcher A did a better job for his team that day since he had two saves and zero blown saves, while Pitcher B had one save and one blown save. espnjohn1 would probably say that Pitcher B was more effective, because he had 1 scoreless inning and appearance, while Pitcher A had none.

Hypothetical #2: Pitcher A enters game one of a doubleheader in the top of the ninth with a one run lead and gives up no runs for the save. He enters game two in the same situation, but yields one run for a blown save and a tie game. Pitcher B enters game one of another doubleheader with a one run lead and yields no runs for the save. He then enters game two in the same situation, but yields 10 runs for the blown save. I would say that Pitcher A was more effective for his team because, even though he had a blown save, he kept it a tie score allowing his team a better chance to pull the game out in the bottom of the ninth or extra innings. espnjohn1 would probably say that both pitchers were equally effective since they both had 1 scoreless inning and appearance.

I tried to make the examples as simple as possible yet still get my point across: it's unfair to compare players based on one or two stats.

I was not a fan of the Koch/Foulke trade, but Billy was impressive on Tuesday. I hope he keeps it up.

JUGGERNAUT
05-18-2003, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by Ventura23Fan
Hypothetical #1: Pitcher A enters game one of a doubleheader

That's you're first mistake. You can't measure scoreless ip & scoreless appearances via a 2 game set. It's a measure that only has meaning over a course of a season to essentially answer 1 question : how many times did your closer's performance help your team to win?

The best example is Koch's 2K2 season. He gave up 34 er, over 77 appearances. On the surface that doesn't look very good. But a closer inspection yeilds 24/34 er were given up vs 2 teams over 10 appearances. That means he gave up only 10er over 67 appearances. This was a big part of the A's 20+ gm winning streak.

Right now the way the SOX are playing it doesn't look like he'll get 70+ appearances, but considering the SOX did save about a million on the deal this year & definitely will save next yr with Foulke probably signing a Wagner like deal someone the trade made sense.

gosox41
05-18-2003, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by JUGGERNAUT
That's you're first mistake. You can't measure scoreless ip & scoreless appearances via a 2 game set. It's a measure that only has meaning over a course of a season to essentially answer 1 question : how many times did your closer's performance help your team to win?

The best example is Koch's 2K2 season. He gave up 34 er, over 77 appearances. On the surface that doesn't look very good. But a closer inspection yeilds 24/34 er were given up vs 2 teams over 10 appearances. That means he gave up only 10er over 67 appearances. This was a big part of the A's 20+ gm winning streak.

Right now the way the SOX are playing it doesn't look like he'll get 70+ appearances, but considering the SOX did save about a million on the deal this year & definitely will save next yr with Foulke probably signing a Wagner like deal someone the trade made sense.


I think this trade was completely idiotic (which I've been saying since the day it was made.) Koch is a one dimensional, highly overrated closer. Foulke has better K/BB and WHIP ratios. If the idea was to trade Foulke because he was leaving the team, I'd rather have gotten two top notch prospects. But to trade for a statistically worse pitcher and then sign that pitcher for an extra year shows the ineptness of KW.

Maybe KW tried to have some logic to this move, but once again he screwed the team. He badly overpaid for a pitcher the Sox didn't even need to begin with (why not just make Marte the closer?)

It's jut another nail in the coffin for this team. And people wonder why the Sox are struggling to reach .500 in the weakest division in baseball. KW has done a ton more to hurt this team then hel[p it. This includes everything from trades, to wasting first round picks on relievers to dumping tables in the clubhouse, to trashing his players to other scouts, to undermining JM's authority, to confronting players when they don't perform.

Overall he is clearly showing why he is one of the worst GM's in all of MLB. How can a team that spends the most (this year second most) in a crappy division with having the advantage of an unblanaced schedule (playing Detroit, KC and CLE 19 times!! All will be below .500 by the end of the season) and still this team sucks.

KW couldn't think his way out of a paper bag. His idiocy is killing this team. He can take his Royce Ring, Jon Adkins, the 32 year old OF who he wrongly traded for, Todd Ritchie, and Billy Koch and shove them up his a**.

I feel much better now that I got that off my chest. :)

Bob

JUGGERNAUT
05-18-2003, 10:04 AM
It depends on the statistics you choose to emphasize. I claim for a closer in particular scoreless ip, & scoreless appearances are more important than WHIP, ERA, OPS vs. The position itself is situational in nature.

But since you added Marte to the mix, I agree. There was nothing in Marte's performance that suggested weakness in the closer position. His OPS vs LH & RH was in the tops in that position. All his career he had struggled vs RH's but in 2K2 perhaps under Cooper they figured something out.

In that respect, KW probably could have gotten more for Foulke. There were several teams that would have taken a chance for his closer ability.
Boston in particular.

MarkEdward
05-18-2003, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by JUGGERNAUT
It depends on the statistics you choose to emphasize. I claim for a closer in particular scoreless ip, & scoreless appearances are more important than WHIP, ERA, OPS vs. The position itself is situational in nature.


Um, why?

Situation A: Billy Koch comes in for the eighth inning of a 15-0 game (Sox are losing). He throws a 1-2-3 inning, retiring the side.

Situation B: Top of the ninth, Oakland up 3-1. Keith Foulke come in and surrenders a home run. Score now 3-2. He then strikes out the side, ending the ball game. A's win.

By your logic, Koch had the better game. My point is that you can't pick and choose stats to fit your argument. Foulke still leads Koch in K/9, BB/9, HR/9, and K/BB.

Ventura23Fan
05-19-2003, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by JUGGERNAUT
That's you're first mistake. You can't measure scoreless ip & scoreless appearances via a 2 game set. It's a measure that only has meaning over a course of a season to essentially answer 1 question : how many times did your closer's performance help your team to win?

The best example is Koch's 2K2 season. He gave up 34 er, over 77 appearances. On the surface that doesn't look very good. But a closer inspection yeilds 24/34 er were given up vs 2 teams over 10 appearances. That means he gave up only 10er over 67 appearances. This was a big part of the A's 20+ gm winning streak.

Right now the way the SOX are playing it doesn't look like he'll get 70+ appearances, but considering the SOX did save about a million on the deal this year & definitely will save next yr with Foulke probably signing a Wagner like deal someone the trade made sense.

That two game example is just one of many instances that I can think of where one stat does not tell the whole story. The more I think of the scoreless ip/total ip and scoreless appearances/total appearances stats, the less I value them. With just those stats to evaluate closers, surrendering one run is equivalent to surrendering 10, and giving up one run with a 3 run lead is equivalent to giving up one run with a one run lead. And if your closer gives up a run with a 2 or 3 run lead, didn't his performance still help the team win?

Take for instance the Sox win over Oakland in Chicago. Koch came in the ninth with a 2-run lead. He walked the first hitter, then gave up two long fly balls and a hard hit single before being pulled for Marte. Koch is credited with a scoreless appearance and 2/3 scoreless ip, but that was a horrible outing by him. And this past Saturday Koch came in to get one out (which he did) so he gets credit for a scoreless appearance for that one out. The situation when it is most important for a closer to surrender no runs is when he enters the game with a one run lead. Someone posted Koch's save % in one run games recently (I believe it was on this board) and it was worse than Foulke's. I prefer to look at several stats to compare pitchers, but if I were to pick only one stat to evaluate closers I would look at save %, not scoreless ip/total ip or scoreless appearances/total appearances.

In 2002, Koch had a great season without a doubt and Foulke did not (at least in terms of saving many games). Call me crazy, but I don't like it when my GM buys high and sells low. And I've stated this before, but in the Koch/Foulke trade, $ was sent to Oakland and at the time KW said it was a cash neutral deal, so no $ was saved this year from that deal as I understand it. And it would not surprise me even a little if Koch is wearing yet another uniform in 2004. I'm a Sox fan so I want to see Koch do well, but I did not like that trade since the time it was made.