PDA

View Full Version : Frank Thomas placed on waivers?


xil357
05-13-2003, 11:52 AM
Did that get your attention?

Such a move, combined with the firing of Gary Ward, would:

1. Wake up the team's hitters.

2. Measure his trade value.

and if he were traded or released:

3. Help clubhouse chemistry

4. Break up the log jam of right-handed hitting 1B/LF/DH types that overpopulate this team

5. Free up payroll either to sign or trade for a starting pitcher that would involve moving Carlos Lee, or mend fences with Buehrle and sign him to a generous contract.

If so, maybe it would cure this team of its chronic rectal-cranial inversion. Of course this presupposes that this team's management could diagnose its own case of this all-too-common affliction.

Frank was my favorite player for years and until recently I thought he was a shoo-in for the Hall of Fame. Now I am not so sure and I although I doubt that most of the team's problems are his fault, sometimes you have to send a message loud and clear.

While we're at it, let's change a few more things:

This team plays in a comparatively large ballpark in a city with frequent bad weather. Let's turn a disadvantage into an advantage.

Re-make the team around strong pitching, good defense, plate discipline and situational hitting. Gee, kind of like Royals and Cubs are doing. I hate giving any credit to the Cubs, but they certainly are not the first team to build around pitching. Furthermore, because we play in a much larger park and at night, we don't have to rely on strikeout pitchers for success like the Cubs (although I would support re-signing Colon to a long-term contract).

In the meantime, give Rios and Daubach full-time jobs at CF and DH respectively to see if they can produce on a full-time basis for the remainder of this season. As veterans, we should know by September whether or not they are keepers. By that time, if not sooner, Borchard should be ready to move into left. Also, we need to find a way to get Aaron Miles on the field.

LuvSox
05-13-2003, 11:55 AM
Why do so many people hate Frank so much? Here is a life long Sox player with a legit chance at the hall of fame. How many guys in this teams 102 year history can say that? Not many. If it was up to me, Frank would stay as long as he likes.

xil357
05-13-2003, 12:06 PM
I can't speak for others, but I do not hate Frank Thomas and I would be crushed if he went to another team, especially if he did revive his career and made it into the Hall of Fame.

However, even the great players need to know how to compensate when their skills are deteriorating and if they don't, then their coaches need to point it out to them.

As I said, Frank is not the biggest problem with this team. However, sometimes you have to sacrifice your sacred cow to get results. Placing him on waivers would not mean his Sox career would be over. They could pull him back from waivers if any other team claimed him and it would determine his trade value. It also would send a message to the rest of the team that a clubhouse tirade or sparring in the media might not.

KW or JM privately could explain to Frank in advance of the move their real motivation for such an action. If Frank isn't seeing good pitches because Maggs and Konerko keep hitting into double plays, then he might even be supportive of a move that could light a fire under those who are not producing behind him.

This could be handled delicately but unfortunately I don't think Sox management is very smart. ("I am so smart, S-M-R-T" -- Homer Simpson)

Bobby Thigpen
05-13-2003, 12:08 PM
Why do so many people hate Frank so much? Here is a life long Sox player with a legit chance at the hall of fame.

Why do I dislike Frank Thomas? Here is a list.
1. He's an unlikable guy
2. His attitude sucks and always has
3. Nothing is ever his fault
4. Thinks that he is bigger than the team
5. He does nothing other than stroll out of the clubhouse, hit, and then stroll directly back in it. You hardly ever see him in the dugout or on the field unless he is hitting. It's hard to disprove that all he cares about is himself when he does that.

And as far as him being a future Hall of Famer, that is a joke. Six years will not get you in the Hall. If people honestly can debate whether or not Palmerio gets in, Frank should never get in.

Even if he does make the Hall, Ty Cobb's in there and I don't think he had too many fans. Just because they're a good ball player doesn't mean I have to like them. Cobb was a jackass and no one liked him, same with Thomas.

I realize I'm probably going to get mauled by the "Frank Thomas Club", but I don't care, I'm sick of Frank. He's been done with since about 98. 2000 was an abberation. It's time to move on. I wish they would have done it this last winter. Let the mauling begin.

jeremyb1
05-13-2003, 12:14 PM
aside from the fact that i fail to see how this move would actually improve our performance on the field, how do you expect reinsdorf to pay the rest of thomas' deal while he plays for another team? like it or not, thomas is in this uniform until he improves his trade value and is dealt to a team he can be dealt to according to his contract or until his contract ends.

LuvSox
05-13-2003, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
Even if he does make the Hall, Ty Cobb's in there and I don't think he had too many fans. Just because they're a good ball player doesn't mean I have to like them. Cobb was a jackass and no one liked him, same with Thomas.

I like Cobb, wish I could've seen him play. While I can't speak for his personal life or his feelings toward others, he played the game with passion & desire. I'll take a team full of Cobbs' over these lazy millionaires anyday. Back to Frank, I'm not gonna maul ya, we just have different views.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-13-2003, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
...I realize I'm probably going to get mauled by the "Frank Thomas Club", but I don't care, I'm sick of Frank. He's been done with since about 98. 2000 was an abberation. It's time to move on. I wish they would have done it this last winter. Let the mauling begin.

You could live another 100 years and I doubt you will ever witness another hitter of his caliber playing for the White Sox. Frank eclipses EVERYBODY who has played for this team since 1901, including pure hitters like Luke Appling, Dick Allen, and yes--Joe Jackson, too.

In the entire history of the game, the only ballplayer who comes close to Frank is Ted Williams--another mean ol' cuss that the fans despised. I know quite a few Red Sox fans back in the 40's wanted to get Ted Williams off their team. They, of course, were idiots. Boston has never seen another ballplayer of his caliber in the six decades since.

I'll fill up my entire roster trading with you for players like Frank Thomas. Have you got any others you want to unload?

It's not a matter of being a member of his "club" but simply recognizing how silly it is to think he is so replaceable. Yeah, a mauling is in order for that kind of thinking. He's the greatest hitter in Sox history and he is NOT the cause of our problems right now.

Bobby Thigpen
05-13-2003, 01:32 PM
Please enlighten me as to what Frank has done in the last 6 years that makes him so irreplacable. Besides 2000, nothing. He hasn't even been the 2nd best hitter on his TEAM for many of those years, let alone being one of the better hitters in the league or the history of the game. Maggs has been a better hitter for most of those years, and you could even argue that Pauly or Jose have been better in certain years.

Yeah his OBP have remained high, but it was because umps still repsected him and gave him many borderline calls and thus he drew tons of walks. This isn't the case any more. More and more they're going to call those inside strikes that Frank bails on, and the last stat that he still gets frequently, walks, will soon fall away as well.

Frank is done. If he resurrects his career somewhere else, I'll eat my words, but it's not happening on the south side. To compare him to Ted Williams today is ludicrous. Maybe at one time in his career, you could, but not now. It's tough to be considered a great player when all you do his hit and you can't even do that anymore. He should be gone.

He may not be the problem, but with his attitude he certainly is helping, either on the field or off. I've never like Frank the man, but loved Frank the player. Unfortunately that player is gone and all we're left with is his shadow and Frank the man. Memories are not the reason you should keep a guy around forever.

Brian26
05-13-2003, 01:34 PM
Preach the gospel, PHG.

Blaming Frank right now is just wrong.

Lots of dumb statements in the posts above. All Frank does is stroll out of the clubhouse and hit 4 times and then leave? First of all, he's the DH. I've watched a ton of games, and I always see Frank in the dugout during the game.

Do your homework.

thezeker
05-13-2003, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Preach the gospel, PHG.

Blaming Frank right now is just wrong.

Lots of dumb statements in the posts above. All Frank does is stroll out of the clubhouse and hit 4 times and then leave? First of all, he's the DH. I've watched a ton of games, and I always see Frank in the dugout during the game.

Do your homework.


If that's the gospel you need a new religion. You should be ashamed to mention Thomas and Williams in the same sentence. Let's take away 5 of Thomas's best years, as Williams did, and see where they stand now. Do you think Big Frank would sacrifice 5 minutes yet alone 5 years for his country. Williams is a man and Thomas is a man-child and should be treated accordingly.

No one wants to take away the contributions Thomas has made to the White sox but right now he is an albatross around this team's neck. We can't sacrifice a ballclub for what he did in the past. It's not fair to the other 24 ballplayers and its not fare to the fans.

I'm not saying he is the only reason why this team is playing lousy. But his statements show he does not care about anyone but himself and being put on waivers will bring this thing to a head one way or the other!

Bobby Thigpen
05-13-2003, 02:33 PM
Lots of dumb statements in the posts above. All Frank does is stroll out of the clubhouse and hit 4 times and then leave? First of all, he's the DH. I've watched a ton of games, and I always see Frank in the dugout during the game

You must be watching an entirely different game than me then. Whenever Frank gets out the first thing he does is head down that tunnel to the clubhouse. Or for more "cage work" as Hawk and DJ put it.

And by the way I'm not blaming him now, I've been blaming him since his production went to hell. Or about 6 years ago. I wish they would have dealt him after his miracle season of 2000 when he was worth something. There's a reason no one signed him this offseason when he was available. No one wants him. It's time for him to go now. The best idea is to cut him and move on.

FarmerAndy
05-13-2003, 03:13 PM
This is ridiculous. I know that right now Frank doesn't look like the player he used to be, but take a look at this team. Right now Frank isn't stinking it up nearly as bad as Konerko is.

Let's live in the now. Don't compare Frank to the Frank of the early 90's, compare him to the rest of the 2003 White Sox. The offense as whole has sucked, and that isn't Frank's fault. FRANK IS NOT THE PROBLEM HERE.


On a side note, why does everybody think that if Frank isn't the best hitter on the team then his time is up? Maybe he'll never return to his 90's form. But if he hit's 25-30 HR's a year, Walks 100 times, and drives in 70-100 runs per year, isn't that good enough??? If we picked up some no-name guy and he put up those numbers, everybody would think the guy was great.

Frank Thomas in the 1990's was the best hitter I've ever seen. It's hard to ask anybody to stack up to that, even Frank himself. He's getting older, but if he's still productive, don't get rid of him. He doesn't have to be 90's Frank. He doesn't have to be the best hitter on the team. As long as he can still be a productive hitter then that should be fine. This is a prime example of how somebody can be a victim of their own success.

JUGGERNAUT
05-13-2003, 03:25 PM
:angry: Let me refer you to the current OPS listings of your beloved SOX:

THE GOOD:
Graff 053 ab, 944
Dang 120 ab, 908
Hurt 111 ab, 901
Val 116 ab, 860
Mags 134 ab, 852

THE BAD:
CLee 123 ab, 745
Olivo 065ab, 740

THE UGLY:
Rios 051 ab, 663
SAlo 056 ab, 663
Kone 121 ab, 611
Cred 125 ab, 607
Daub 038 ab, 522

THE CRAPPER:
ARow 060 ab, 367
WHar 026 ab, 264

Oh yeah, it makes a crap load of sense to put your 3rd best player on waivers!

Hullett_Fan
05-13-2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by espnjohn1
:angry: Let me refer you to the current OPS listings of your beloved SOX:

THE GOOD:
Graff 053 ab, 944
Dang 120 ab, 908
Hurt 111 ab, 901
Val 116 ab, 860
Mags 134 ab, 852

THE BAD:
CLee 123 ab, 745
Olivo 065ab, 740

THE UGLY:
Rios 051 ab, 663
SAlo 056 ab, 663
Kone 121 ab, 611
Cred 125 ab, 607
Daub 038 ab, 522

THE CRAPPER:
ARow 060 ab, 367
WHar 026 ab, 264

Oh yeah, it makes a crap load of sense to put your 3rd best player on waivers!


Man, do Crede and Konerko make me sick. That's the production we get from our corner infielders...two of four positions that must drive a teams offense??? That is a crap load!

gosox41
05-13-2003, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by Hullett_Fan
Man, do Crede and Konerko make me sick. That's the production we get from our corner infielders...two of four positions that must drive a teams offense??? That is a crap load!

I have faith that both will come around. But the difference is Crede is getting paid the minimum while Konerko is hihgly overpaid for the numbers he puts up at his position.

Bob

MarkEdward
05-13-2003, 04:28 PM
... because good teams *always* release their best players...

MHOUSE
05-13-2003, 10:13 PM
I don't hate Frank, but I don't think that he's helping this team either. I know he was great in the early 90s and has a shot at the hall, but I was 4 in 1990 when he started out and only picked up baseball since the 00-01 seasons. So I missed out on his greatness and I guess I'm not as attached to him as a lot of other people are. His attitude sucks, his numbers have been way down the last 2 years, there are plenty of reason to not like him. A release would be stupid, a trade unlikely, we're going to have to stick it out with Frank.

Daver
05-13-2003, 10:19 PM
Well,all I can say is read this. (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/leaders_bat.shtml)


How old is Barry Bonds?

LuvSox
05-13-2003, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
but I was 4 in 1990 when he started out and only picked up baseball since the 00-01 seasons. So I missed out on his greatness

Yeah, you sure did miss out. Frank should stay in a Sox uni for as long as he wants. He's the biggest star this team has seen since Fisk came over. (That's Carlton Fisk. He was a catcher.) Why don't you find Frank and tell him you've been a baseball fan for about two years and tell him his attitude sucks. I'd like to see that.

Nellie_Fox
05-14-2003, 12:45 AM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
I don't hate Frank, but I don't think that he's helping this team either. I know he was great in the early 90s and has a shot at the hall, but I was 4 in 1990 when he started out and only picked up baseball since the 00-01 seasons. You're seventeen years old, you've only been a baseball fan since you were fourteen, and you feel qualified to judge Frank Thomas?

I became a baseball fan when I was five. What have you been doing with your life? Playing soccer?

MHOUSE
05-14-2003, 01:22 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
You're seventeen years old, you've only been a baseball fan since you were fourteen, and you feel qualified to judge Frank Thomas?

I became a baseball fan when I was five. What have you been doing with your life? Playing soccer?

LOL actually I've been playing soccer since I was five. HUGE soccer fan. I played baseball too until I didn't like it anymore when I was like 12. Then watching it on tv and having friends who were into baseball I got into being a fan and actually liked it a lot. I'm not qualified to judge Frank, but based on what I've seen in recent years is what I base my opinion of him on. Probably not the best rounded opinion, but take it for what it's worth (not much, sorry :(: ) Something wrong with soccer? :?:

WhiteSox = Life
05-14-2003, 01:52 AM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
LOL actually I've been playing soccer since I was five. HUGE soccer fan. I played baseball too until I didn't like it anymore when I was like 12. Then watching it on tv and having friends who were into baseball I got into being a fan and actually liked it a lot. I'm not qualified to judge Frank, but based on what I've seen in recent years is what I base my opinion of him on. Probably not the best rounded opinion, but take it for what it's worth (not much, sorry :(: ) Something wrong with soccer? :?:

Nellie doesn't care too much for people giving opinions when they are biased or have don't know what they're talking about.

Clearly, your previous statement violated the latter part.

Nellie_Fox is one of the most eloquent, thought-provoking posters on the board and he doesn't mind opinions, just valid ones.

Yours, unfortunately, as you've admitted, is invalid. You can't judge somebody by how they're doing now. Similarly, you can't judge somebody only by how they did in the past.

Originally posted by MHOUSE
I don't hate Frank, but I don't think that he's helping this team either. I know he was great in the early 90s and has a shot at the hall, but I was 4 in 1990 when he started out and only picked up baseball since the 00-01 seasons. So I missed out on his greatness and I guess I'm not as attached to him as a lot of other people are. His attitude sucks, his numbers have been way down the last 2 years, there are plenty of reason to not like him. A release would be stupid, a trade unlikely, we're going to have to stick it out with Frank.

This quote is particularly damning and is what upset Nellie to start with.

I'm not trying to speak for Nellie. I'm only trying to explain why he responded like he did. I know he can speak for himself, but I only wish to point out I agree with him.

I may be one of the younger posters on this board, but I try hard to only give opinions of subjects I do know.

I suggest you do likewise, lest you wish to face the wrath of those older and wiser.

I'm not trying to scold you or anything. Just explaining, that's all.

:smile:

Oh, yeah. Now, go to your room... Unless, you're already in your room...

:D:

Bobby Thigpen
05-14-2003, 09:36 AM
So basically your guys' attitudes is that since Frank was great for like 7 or 8 years the Sox should allow him to just do whatever the hell he wants for as long as he wants, just because he was once great. So for you guys, he could hit like .173 with 2 homers and that would be fine.
Frank should stay in a Sox uni for as long as he wants

That just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. No team in sports today can afford to keep a guy around just based on past exploits. Ask the Cowboys.

Oh, and Nelly, I've been watching Frank since his first at bat in the big leagues in Milwaukee in 90, and I think his attitude sucks.

MHOUSE
05-14-2003, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
So basically your guys' attitudes is that since Frank was great for like 7 or 8 years the Sox should allow him to just do whatever the hell he wants for as long as he wants, just because he was once great. So for you guys, he could hit like .173 with 2 homers and that would be fine.

That just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. No team in sports today can afford to keep a guy around just based on past exploits. Ask the Cowboys.

Oh, and Nelly, I've been watching Frank since his first at bat in the big leagues in Milwaukee in 90, and I think his attitude sucks.

LOL :D: Looks like Bobby shares some of my opinions. hmmm I'll let you guys debate this one. I'll just observe...

anyways, what's wrong with soccer? :?:

PaleHoseGeorge
05-14-2003, 11:16 AM
It's not that Frank was "great". The point is simply that getting rid of Frank won't make a bit of difference to Paul Konerko's inability to hit or his best season being only slightly above-average for an A.L. firstbasemen. Getting rid of Frank won't make Joe Crede hit, or Jon Garland into a MLB pitcher. Getting rid of Frank won't fix the manager's inability to define rolls for his bullpen--or even grow the stones to simply drop a hitter like Frank in the lineup. He is the manager, you know; he has the authority to make such moves--if only he possessed the backbone to use that authority.

Could it be--maybe, just possibly--that the reason Frank complains about getting nothing to hit is because the next two guys in the batting order (Maggs and Konerko) are doing hardly anything more noteworthy than grounding into an extraordinary number of double-plays?

Of course I'm not "fed up" with Frank like some of you. If Frank performing beneath MVP numbers is all it takes for the likes of you to vent your spleen about how "fed up" at Frank Thomas you truly are, then go for it. I laugh my ass off everytime I hear comparisions to his numbers from the 90's and 2000. HE WAS WITHIN A WHISKER OF BEING A THREE-TIME MVP THOSE SEASONS. What standard are the rest of us suppose to judge him against? Paul Konerko's? Where's the venting of spleens for this bust?

It's your funeral, so go ahead and say what you want. However the numbers simply don't back you up. I'm sorry Frank isn't an MVP player this year. Obviously that's a real disappointment to some of you.

Bobby Thigpen
05-14-2003, 12:01 PM
The point is simply that getting rid of Frank won't make a bit of difference to Paul Konerko's inability to

Never said it would.

My problem with Frank is not his numbers, it's his attitude. I realize that he's older and that numbers like he had in 93, 94, and 95 are unlikely at this stage of his career. You can't put up MVP numbers every year. Fine. My point is that Frank is not putting up numbers to warrant putting up with his prima donna attitude. People can put up with Barry Bonds and Frank in his heyday when they're putting up superman numbers. The problem is Frank isn't putting up those numbers, but still acts as if he is. This team can't, and more importantly, shouldn't put up with it.

In one of your other posts George you said you'd take me on with a teamload of Frank Thomas' vs a team of my guys. I'd do that in a heartbeat and kick your ass everytime. Number one, your fielding will be terrible :smile: but what kind of team are you going to have with everyone only looking out for themselves all the time? Why do you think there is this resurgence of teams with no names making runs for championships lately? (Anaheim Ducks, Patriots two year ago, etc.) Because they play as a team. This is a team game, and unfortunately the White Sox, with Frank being the main culprit I feel, has forgotten that.

I respect Frank for all that he has done for this franchise. He WAS a great player. Unfortanetly for us and him, he is done. This has been a 6-7 year trend with 2000 being a fluke. Frank's production simply doesn't warrant the attitude. It's time for the Frank Thomas era to end.

I wish it would have after 2000 when we would have gotten something for him. Now the Sox would be luck to get a bucket of BP balls for him in a trade. No one wanted to sign him as a FA, why would they want to give something up to get him? Cutting him is unfortunately the only solution left.

FarmerAndy
05-14-2003, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
anyways, what's wrong with soccer? :?:

It's a glorified version of "kick the can". :D:

Fridaythe13thJason
05-14-2003, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
anyways, what's wrong with soccer? :?:

It's a slow version of hockey on grass...that sucks.

MarkEdward
05-14-2003, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
So basically your guys' attitudes is that since Frank was great for like 7 or 8 years the Sox should allow him to just do whatever the hell he wants for as long as he wants, just because he was once great. So for you guys, he could hit like .173 with 2 homers and that would be fine.

BUT HE'S NOT HITTING 173! He has an OPS over .900, second on the team. He's still very useful.

If he wasn't producing, then many of us would agree that he should be gone. But if the only reason that you want him gone is because he *allegedly* has "attitude problems," then you'll probably need better evidence to support your argument.


That just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. No team in sports today can afford to keep a guy around just based on past exploits. Ask the Cowboys.

Oh, and Nelly, I've been watching Frank since his first at bat in the big leagues in Milwaukee in 90, and I think his attitude sucks.

I've heard that Barry Bonds has a bad reputation. I hear Roger Clemens can be a bit of a hothead. Sometimes, Pedro Martinez can be a bit of a loudmouth. Still, I'd take nine Barrys over nine "nice guys" like Joe Girardi and Paul Konerko.

Bobby Thigpen
05-14-2003, 03:07 PM
He has an OPS over .900

Why does everyone put so much stock in a stat that didn't exist three or for years ago? What was Mickey Mantle's OPS? What was Hank Aarons. OPS is crap.

I've heard that Barry Bonds has a bad reputation. I hear Roger Clemens can be a bit of a hothead. Sometimes, Pedro Martinez can be a bit of a loudmouth.

Those guys sure have won a lot of team titles haven't they. My point is not individual stats, it's winning in a team game. Frank does not know how to function in a team game.

Joe Girardi

Yeah, why would you want someone on your team that has actually won a World Series?

TheBigHurt
05-14-2003, 03:38 PM
FRANK'S a guy you either love or hate.....THAT simple

TommyJohn
05-14-2003, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
You could live another 100 years and I doubt you will ever witness another hitter of his caliber playing for the White Sox. Frank eclipses EVERYBODY who has played for this team since 1901, including pure hitters like Luke Appling, Dick Allen, and yes--Joe Jackson, too.

In the entire history of the game, the only ballplayer who comes close to Frank is Ted Williams--another mean ol' cuss that the fans despised. I know quite a few Red Sox fans back in the 40's wanted to get Ted Williams off their team. They, of course, were idiots. Boston has never seen another ballplayer of his caliber in the six decades since.

I'll fill up my entire roster trading with you for players like Frank Thomas. Have you got any others you want to unload?

It's not a matter of being a member of his "club" but simply recognizing how silly it is to think he is so replaceable. Yeah, a mauling is in order for that kind of thinking. He's the greatest hitter in Sox history and he is NOT the cause of our problems right now.

:moron

What!! You dare!! You dare say something positive about him!!
By the time I am through, I will see to it that he gets fewer Hall
votes than Dave Kingman!! He doesn't belong in Cooperstown!
He doesn't belong in Cooperstown!!! And in case I haven't stat-
ed it often enough in my column, let me say it again, he doesn't
belong in Cooperstown!!! It is my new mission in life to make
sure never gets there, because he doesn't belong in Coopers-
town!!! (Froth, froth, foam, foam.)

FarmerAndy
05-14-2003, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen


Those guys sure have won a lot of team titles haven't they. My point is not individual stats, it's winning in a team game. Frank does not know how to function in a team game.



[]

That's bull! When has Frank had a team around him? He functioned just fine in '93 and '94 when the White Sox were good as a whole. Other than that, Frank has never been on a playoff caliber team.

Frank is, and has been, the least of the White Sox problems.

Paulwny
05-14-2003, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
Why does everyone put so much stock in a stat that didn't exist three or for years ago? What was Mickey Mantle's OPS? What was Hank Aarons. OPS is crap.


From ESPN:
Here are the top 10 OPS men (minimum 1,000 games), through the end of the 2000 season:

1. Babe Ruth 1164
2. Ted Williams 1116
3. Lou Gehrig 1080
4. Jimmie Foxx 1038
5. Frank Thomas 1024
6. Hank Greenberg 1017
7. Rogers Hornsby 1010
8. Mark McGwire 995
9. Barry Bonds 982
10. Mickey Mantle 979

MarkEdward
05-14-2003, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
Why does everyone put so much stock in a stat that didn't exist three or for years ago? What was Mickey Mantle's OPS? What was Hank Aarons. OPS is crap.

Um, OPS has been around since the 1980s, maybe even earlier. Branch Rickey, one of the greatest baseball minds ever, saw the advantage of having players with high OBPs and SLG%s on his teams.

By your logic, any stat that Henry Chadwick didn't invent is useless, right?



Those guys sure have won a lot of team titles haven't they. My point is not individual stats, it's winning in a team game. Frank does not know how to function in a team game.

How so?



Yeah, why would you want someone on your team that has actually won a World Series?

So why haven't we traded Mags and Buehrle for Jim Leyritz and Luis Sojo? I mean, by your logic, Mags sucks! Hell, so does Bartolo Colon! We need Greg Swindell! Bring back Julio Ramirez (he was on the Angels last year, dontyaknow).

Nellie_Fox
05-15-2003, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
So basically your guys' attitudes is that since Frank was great for like 7 or 8 years the Sox should allow him to just do whatever the hell he wants for as long as he wants, just because he was once great. So for you guys, he could hit like .173 with 2 homers and that would be fine. This is what is called a "straw-man argument." You assign the other person an exaggerated, indefensible position and then defeat that position. Fairly easy to do.

I have never said, nor has anyone else, that he should be allowed "to just do whatever the hell he wants for as long as he wants." Nor has anyone said that .173 with two homers would be fine. You said that. Argue with what we said, not with what you say we are saying.

Frank may well be at the end of his career. Guys have been washed up in their mid thirties. I just haven't seen enough evidence yet to convince me that that's the case. Right now, he's hitting .269. Not MVP numbers, but certainly not .173. He is on a pace to hit around 35 homers. That's a few more than two. His OPS is over .900. Add that to the fact that no one in the Sox lineup has been hitting, and you simply haven't made the case that Frank has to go.

I'm not saying that he can do whatever he wants. I'm just saying that with the numbers he has put up in his career he deserves a chance. If the Sox had picked up a free agent over the offseason who was putting up the numbers that Frank is right now, you guys would be very happy and blaming the players around him in the lineup for not getting on base to be driven in, and not being a threat behind him to force the other team to pitch to him. But it's Frank, and people who have never been in a clubhouse have decided that he's an attitude problem and a "cancer."

He's a proud man, and yes he tends to wear his heart on his sleeve when things aren't going well. However, I remember Sox fans ripping Luzinski because he acted like he didn't care when he wasn't hitting.

Iwritecode
05-15-2003, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny
From ESPN:
Here are the top 10 OPS men (minimum 1,000 games), through the end of the 2000 season:

1. Babe Ruth 1164
2. Ted Williams 1116
3. Lou Gehrig 1080
4. Jimmie Foxx 1038
5. Frank Thomas 1024
6. Hank Greenberg 1017
7. Rogers Hornsby 1010
8. Mark McGwire 995
9. Barry Bonds 982
10. Mickey Mantle 979

That looks like some pretty good company to be in.

voodoochile
05-15-2003, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
This is what is called a "straw-man argument." You assign the other person an exaggerated, indefensible position and then defeat that position. Fairly easy to do.

I have never said, nor has anyone else, that he should be allowed "to just do whatever the hell he wants for as long as he wants." Nor has anyone said that .173 with two homers would be fine. You said that. Argue with what we said, not with what you say we are saying.

Frank may well be at the end of his career. Guys have been washed up in their mid thirties. I just haven't seen enough evidence yet to convince me that that's the case. Right now, he's hitting .269. Not MVP numbers, but certainly not .173. He is on a pace to hit around 35 homers. That's a few more than two. His OPS is over .900. Add that to the fact that no one in the Sox lineup has been hitting, and you simply haven't made the case that Frank has to go.

I'm not saying that he can do whatever he wants. I'm just saying that with the numbers he has put up in his career he deserves a chance. If the Sox had picked up a free agent over the offseason who was putting up the numbers that Frank is right now, you guys would be very happy and blaming the players around him in the lineup for not getting on base to be driven in, and not being a threat behind him to force the other team to pitch to him. But it's Frank, and people who have never been in a clubhouse have decided that he's an attitude problem and a "cancer."

He's a proud man, and yes he tends to wear his heart on his sleeve when things aren't going well. However, I remember Sox fans ripping Luzinski because he acted like he didn't care when he wasn't hitting.

Preach on, Brother Nellie...

I am surprsed no one called BT on his lack of walks comment. Frank is currently 2nd in the AL in walks and leads the team in OBP. Now that is not only a stat that has been around for a long time, but is something the team as a whole is woefully short on. The "dump Frank" position is indefensible, but that won't stop the haters...

Iguana775
05-15-2003, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Preach on, Brother Nellie...

I am surprsed no one called BT on his lack of walks comment. Frank is currently 2nd in the AL in walks and leads the team in OBP. Now that is not only a stat that has been around for a long time, but is something the team as a whole is woefully short on. The "dump Frank" position is indefensible, but that won't stop the haters...

i agree.....preach on, Nellie! :D:

Bobby Thigpen
05-15-2003, 04:07 PM
I'm sorry, but I can't argue this anymore. It has become obvious that it is a major sore spot with many of you here. I'm also sorry that I can't fight back with accurate stats because I don't have time to look up Babe Ruth's OPS, because I have a job, and I try to do it well. Sorry.

My argument the whole time has been based on my belief that the Sox would be better off without Frank. This will never change, no matter what numbers he puts up this season. It isn't about NUMBERS. It's about attitudes and a willingness to win. I don't think that Frank possesses a very good one of either. He constantly whines (about those hitting around him, where he's hitting, how much he's getting paid, about the media hounding, about what JM says, etc., etc.), and is unwilling to do anything other than what he wants to do (see spring training exercises, the conflicts he has had with JM, batting order, etc.)

Sorry if these have been biased by the media as some of you like to complain, but if these aren't true where is the supporting evidence? I have yet to ever hear of anyone who has left the Sox and sang Frank's praises as a teammate. I just haven't. In fact most of what I have heard have been the opposite. It seems to me that there is a dividion in the Sox clubhouse, with one side being Frank, and the other being our younger core of players (Maggs, Pauly). I just believe more in our younger players and their futures than I do Frank and his future. I just don't think he has much of one.

Yes, I would rather have a team made up of some of those guys that you mentioned MarkEdward than Frank Thomas. It's an apparent philisophical difference. Give me a guy who will bust his ass every day in every aspect like David Eckstein, or Fernando Vina over Frank Thomas or Bonds any day.(please try to tell me how Frank busts his ass, this should be comical) Give me a TEAM of them and I'd win quite a few games. Give me a team full of Franks and I really think you'd be worse off than with a team of no ones.

Obviously I don't know anything, so I give up. Keep Frank Thomas forever for all I care. Let's trade everyone else on the team, as everyone else has suggested, but don't get rid of Frank, he's a sacred cow.

doublem23
05-15-2003, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
Why does everyone put so much stock in a stat that didn't exist three or for years ago? What was Mickey Mantle's OPS? What was Hank Aarons. OPS is crap.

OPS has been around, no one "invented" it. Didn't North America exist before it was "discovered"?

Either ways, I think this is all anyone really needs to make a judgment on any argument you put forward.

And, while we're at it, why don't we put Mark Buehrle on waivers? He sucks now, too!