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34 Inch Stick
05-12-2003, 01:36 PM
After a review of the paper today I saw a lot of Sox pointing a lot of fingers. Manuel blamed 3-4-5. Thomas blamed the umpires and Manuel. Koch questioned Manuel. Garland and Manuel blamed the fans. Nobody blamed himself (and everybody from ownership to benchwarmer has guilt).

This is a sign of a clubhouse that is lost (yet JM's job is still secure). It is also the attitude of a loser. The Sox have the ability to do well for the next three weeks, get over .500 again and pull close to the Twins. However, they are focused on the negatives. I am very concerned this is going to get worse.

Also breaking bad on the fans is never a winning strategy.

Jerry, you don't think the Sox "have ever had a good welcoming." Well, you prick, I was there the game after you came back from the Yankees series in 2000 and people were giving standing ovations before the game started. You come back from a good road trip instead of your typical .500 record and you will get cheered.

I now hate Jerry Manuel.

SoxxoS
05-12-2003, 01:42 PM
Great post, 34. Sad but true. I didn't notice that until you pointed that out. Everyone is pointing fingers. Can be easily fixed with the firing of KW, JM and Ward. Cooper hasn't shown me much, either. All of them can get out. Trade Frank. He could still bring some nice return, and to be frank (no pun intended), I am sick of him and his production/complaining. He can still return some quality talent in a deep system. Kip Wells and Josh Fogg were acquired for Todd Ritchie. We should be able to get Brett Myers for Frank if that's the case!!!
Garland can get demoted, and Koch will be fine once Manuels gone. It's a process that needs to get rolling, SOON, or else this season is over.

LuvSox
05-12-2003, 01:45 PM
What paper was this in?

Rocky Soprano
05-12-2003, 01:49 PM
I saw this today and only shook my head.

Manuel should not be pointing his fingers at his players. Thats only going to make them pissed off and quit trying. He needs to give them a pep talk not tell them that they are losing because of them. I used to like Manuel but now I am starting to dislike him.

I am glad that Frank stood up for the team. They are all trying, well most of them, and its not fair to point the fingers at our best guys.

Can the Sox expect a good welcoming on Tuesday? I dont know about everyone but I for one will stand up and be cheering them on Tuesday. Im not turning my back on them.

Lets go Sox, get it together! :gulp:

Hangar18
05-12-2003, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
He can still return some quality talent in a deep system. Kip Wells and Josh Fogg were acquired for Todd Ritchie. We should be able to get Brett Myers for Frank if that's the case!!!
Garland can get demoted, and Koch will be fine once Manuels gone. It's a process that needs to get rolling, SOON, or else this season is over.

I still cant believe we traded Wells/Fogg and only were able to get Todd Ritchie. Unbelievable. Thats like $80,000 for your new chevy impala. Trade Frank to an NL team. He will win "comeback" player of the year against all of the Mediocre Pitching in the NL. Frank would enjoy a "Re-Birth" and would again put up 35 homers in a bogus Fastball League.

SoxxoS
05-12-2003, 02:01 PM
Just to clarify, when I say the process of firing, trading, promoting needs to get started SOON, I mean like, today. Just in case JR or Eddie Einhorn reads this board.

RKMeibalane
05-12-2003, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
I saw this today and only shook my head.

Manuel should not be pointing his fingers at his players. Thats only going to make them pissed off and quit trying. He needs to give them a pep talk not tell them that they are losing because of them. I used to like Manuel but now I am starting to dislike him.

I am glad that Frank stood up for the team. They are all trying, well most of them, and its not fair to point the fingers at our best guys.

Can the Sox expect a good welcoming on Tuesday? I dont know about everyone but I for one will stand up and be cheering them on Tuesday. Im not turning my back on them.

Lets go Sox, get it together! :gulp:

The players (except Garland) should be cheered. Manuel deserves to get booed after the way he behaved yesterday. I am sick and tired of his excuse making. He's the one who keeps ****ing around with the lineup every single day, yet he has the audacity to blame the players for this mess. Give me a break!

I apologize for the strong language, but I am tired of this crap. It has been far too long since the Sox showed any signs of being a contender.

ssang
05-12-2003, 02:29 PM
The following quote was made by our very own JERRY MANUEL!

''Have we ever had a good welcoming?'' he asked with a smile. ''I expect a standing ovation when we come back, a full house, packed to the brim, 55,000 screaming. That's what I expect. I'm serious. I expect them to be packed in there ready to cheer us on, man.''


Does anyone else find these somments disturbing? It's like he thinks the White Sox' futility is a damn joke!!! I, for one, do not appreciate his condesending comments here. Does any fan find this funny????

SoxxoS
05-12-2003, 02:34 PM
Nothing is funny when we are losing. If we were winning, that would have never been said. It's a double edged sword.

Rocky Soprano
05-12-2003, 02:42 PM
On Tuesday we should all take signs that say:

JM I am one of the 55K Sox fans standing up and screaming to get you and KW fired!

Hangar18
05-12-2003, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by ssang
The following quote was made by our very own JERRY MANUEL!

''Have we ever had a good welcoming?'' he asked with a smile. ''I expect a standing ovation when we come back, a full house, packed to the brim, 55,000 screaming. That's what I expect. I'm serious. I expect them to be packed in there ready to cheer us on, man.''


Does anyone else find these somments disturbing? It's like he thinks the White Sox' futility is a damn joke!!! I, for one, do not appreciate his condesending comments here. Does any fan find this funny????

Who does he think we are? Cub Fans? PUt a bunch of Monkeys out there, Play Poorly and watch us pay Inflated Prices and fill the park anyway? This must be what it feels like to be a Cub Fan. Minus the media coverage.

Foulke You
05-12-2003, 02:53 PM
''Have we ever had a good welcoming?'' he asked with a smile.

-Jerry Manuel on Sox fans from today's Sun-Times

That's it!! I have completely had it with Jerry "The Tool" Manuel. How dare you rip Sox fans!! :angry: Hey Jerry!!! When you guys went 7-0 versus NY and Cleveland on the road in 2000 and you showed heart and determination, there were 45,000 strong and 15,000 outside the park trying to get in on the first home game after the trip. Your team got a standing ovation before they even took the field!!! I was one who didn't manage to get in to that game even though I had a ticket, it was THAT crowded, there was NO parking, a traffic jam on the Dan Ryan from the loop to 35th st. A complete sellout crowd. Obviously, your feeble brain has forgotten!! :angry:

You take your corpseball playing team on the road and eek out a 2-4 record and we Sox fans are supposed to pee ourselves with joy and flock to the ballpark like Cub fans? Unreal!! Here's an idea Jerry, stop trotting out Flush Gordon and Rick White, stop tinkering with the lineup, stop pointing fingers at your best players, stop blaming the fans, and own up to the weak leadership you have provided this lost baseball team!! :angry:

RKMeibalane
05-12-2003, 02:56 PM
I won't miss Manuel when he's gone. I am sick and tired of his whining and excuse making. Filling the park won't change a thing. The Sox will continue mediocre baseball until they get their acts together. Manuel makes me sick. I can think of only one punishment appropriate for him:

http://www.eyeonstarwars.com/trilogy/ character/images/emperor2.jpg

:jerry

"ARRGGHHH!"

RKMeibalane
05-12-2003, 03:04 PM
That was actually supposd to be an image of Emperor Palpatine unleashing Force Lightning. Imagining him doing that to punish Manuel has made my day brighter.

jeremyb1
05-12-2003, 06:50 PM
i'm sorry but i am completely disgusted here. rarely in my entire life have i seen hiprocracy paralelling that displayed by most of the "fire manuel" camp here. could you guys at least keep your complaints straight?!?!

first manuel is deserving of losing his job because he lacks intensity and refuses to stand up to his owners and his own players. am i the only one who remembers the thread where everyone was disgusted because manuel wouldn't move frank down in the lineup because he was worried about losing him?! now manuel does blame the players for hitting .240 and he's out of line and should lose his job for THAT?!?!?!?!?!? can any of you come up with one coherant story about why the man should lose his job instead of flip flopping on a daily basis?! he does something which you think is unacceptable so he should be fired. he then does the opposite and that's even worse!!!! make up your minds!!!!!

as for manuel's comments about the fans, how is that direct criticism? he can't poke fun at the fact that the fans like to boo him and the club without it being characterized as a direct attack of the team's fans? of course people think he should lose his job when they choose to interpret everything he says in the worst light possible. what is the man's reaction supposed to be when he gets booed by thousands of his own fans on a regular basis anyway's?! how would you react to someone trying to take away your living, your livlihood when you go out there and bust your ass every day? despite that manuel has NOT made a habit of critisizing the fans yet he gets bashed for it anyways.

this thread makes me ill...

Foulke You
05-12-2003, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i'm sorry but i am completely disgusted here. rarely in my entire life have i seen hiprocracy paralelling that displayed by most of the "fire manuel" camp here. could you guys at least keep your complaints straight?!?!

first manuel is deserving of losing his job because he lacks intensity and refuses to stand up to his owners and his own players. am i the only one who remembers the thread where everyone was disgusted because manuel wouldn't move frank down in the lineup because he was worried about losing him?! now manuel does blame the players for hitting .240 and he's out of line and should lose his job for THAT?!?!?!?!?!? can any of you come up with one coherant story about why the man should lose his job instead of flip flopping on a daily basis?! he does something which you think is unacceptable so he should be fired. he then does the opposite and that's even worse!!!! make up your minds!!!!!

as for manuel's comments about the fans, how is that direct criticism? he can't poke fun at the fact that the fans like to boo him and the club without it being characterized as a direct attack of the team's fans? of course people think he should lose his job when they choose to interpret everything he says in the worst light possible. what is the man's reaction supposed to be when he gets booed by thousands of his own fans on a regular basis anyway's?! how would you react to someone trying to take away your living, your livlihood when you go out there and bust your ass every day? despite that manuel has NOT made a habit of critisizing the fans yet he gets bashed for it anyways.

this thread makes me ill...


Jeremy, you can be as ill as you want about this thread. I have my feelings about Jerry Manuel and I'm sticking to it. I haven't changed my feelings about him baseball wise for the last couple years but I definitely take exception to anyone ripping on our fans. Because that is exactly what he did. "Have we ever had a warm welcome?" is one of the quotes. *** is that?!! The Sox have a small but fiercely loyal group of fans out there. You don't mess with the people who have been watching this team for years. You don't insult them like that REGARDLESS of what criticism the fans have directed at him over the years. I'm sorry, it doesn't give him the right to do that. If he can't take the heat and criticism of being an MLB manager in a town like Chicago than he should resign immediately. It isn't Sox fans that are trotting Rick White and Flash Gordon out there to get whipped. It isn't Sox fans who are playing lottery lineup card every damn day. It isn't Sox fans who have no answer for our teams struggles. It is however, Sox fans who suffer with every loss and now we have to deal with our own team's manager "having fun" at Sox fans expense. It just ain't right. This is just how I feel.

i_luv_jgarland
05-12-2003, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Great post, 34. Sad but true. I didn't notice that until you pointed that out. Everyone is pointing fingers. Can be easily fixed with the firing of KW, JM and Ward. Cooper hasn't shown me much, either. All of them can get out. Trade Frank. He could still bring some nice return, and to be frank (no pun intended), I am sick of him and his production/complaining. He can still return some quality talent in a deep system. Kip Wells and Josh Fogg were acquired for Todd Ritchie. We should be able to get Brett Myers for Frank if that's the case!!!
Garland can get demoted, and Koch will be fine once Manuels gone. It's a process that needs to get rolling, SOON, or else this season is over.
Whose left to play baseball??

Ol Aches & Pains
05-12-2003, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
can any of you come up with one coherant story about why the man should lose his job instead of flip flopping on a daily basis?!

OK, I'll give it a shot... It's May 12th, and the Sox have quit, the season is over by the look of them. How many times have they come from behind to win this year? None of them look like they give a rat's ass, Jose Valentine is still showing some intensity, and Ordonez will come around, but the rest of them appear to have given up.

Now, I know these are grown men who are professionals making obscene amounts of money. You shouldn't have to motivate them, but sadly, that's exactly what they need. They aren't producing for Manuel, and if management doesn't do something immediately, the season really is over.

RKMeibalane
05-13-2003, 12:36 AM
:reinsy

"Remember, this is all your fault, Sox fans."

jeremyb1
05-13-2003, 05:23 AM
Originally posted by Foulke You
Jeremy, you can be as ill as you want about this thread. I have my feelings about Jerry Manuel and I'm sticking to it. I haven't changed my feelings about him baseball wise for the last couple years but I definitely take exception to anyone ripping on our fans. Because that is exactly what he did. "Have we ever had a warm welcome?" is one of the quotes. *** is that?!! The Sox have a small but fiercely loyal group of fans out there. You don't mess with the people who have been watching this team for years. You don't insult them like that REGARDLESS of what criticism the fans have directed at him over the years. I'm sorry, it doesn't give him the right to do that. If he can't take the heat and criticism of being an MLB manager in a town like Chicago than he should resign immediately. It isn't Sox fans that are trotting Rick White and Flash Gordon out there to get whipped. It isn't Sox fans who are playing lottery lineup card every damn day. It isn't Sox fans who have no answer for our teams struggles. It is however, Sox fans who suffer with every loss and now we have to deal with our own team's manager "having fun" at Sox fans expense. It just ain't right. This is just how I feel.

again, i did not see the quote as manuel bashing the fans i saw it poking fun at his and the teams lack of popularity amongst the fans. i didn't get the impression he said it as though he was exceedingly upset with the fans, just that he had decided to be amused that his team gets booed by its own fans because there's no other reaction he can have without getting upset.

i'm glad if you personally are being consistent in your critisicms of manuel but i get the impression that many are not. also, if 15 people disagree with manuel does not become emotional and chew out the team and 15 people become upset when manuel does blame the team because they're playing hard and its not their fault that should at least indicate that as a whole those that disaprove of manuel are not in agreement as to what he's doing wrong. if there's not a relative consensus as to HOW he's doing a poor job i fail to see how he can be managing that poorly.

34 Inch Stick
05-13-2003, 09:44 AM
Intense or not intense. Emotional or not emotional. I could give a rats behind on my manager's style of management. For every Pinella there is a Torre. Both styles have been proven to work.

How about this one Jeremy. The Sox have been one of the worst fielding teams, worst base running and generally one of the most fundamentally unsound teams in baseball for at least the last three years. Yet these areas are not a focus of spring training. Who is entrusted with setting the focus of spring training?

The Sox have had several years of odd pitching and in game substitutions. They also have a history of questionable starting lineups. Who is in charge of those areas?

The Sox BY ALL ACCOUNTS have had a worse record in each of the last 3 years than was predicted at the beginning of the season. The talent level has always been admired but the record has underwhelmed. Who is entrustes with helping a team reach its full potential?

Who stuck with Royce Clayton at shortstop in 2001, even though Valentin was the heart of a division champion at that position in 2000? Who stuck with Clayton and Ramirez in 2001 as their averages sapped the strenght of the lineup? Who again stuck with Clayton again in 2002 as he did a mirror image of 2001?

I could go on, but then my post would be as long as the average Jeremy post. Emotion will only inspire players for a short period of time. Manuel must go because he is deficient in the areas that make up the daily grind of a 162 game season.

And how do you not interpret his comments as a slam on the fans. "Have we ever received a good welcome." Even if it is said with a smile that is meant as a jab. It would be like me saying has Jeremy ever had a post that didn't run on for at least three long paragraphs. I say it with a smile and it is good natured ribbing, but I also mean it.

jeremyb1
05-13-2003, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Intense or not intense. Emotional or not emotional. I could give a rats behind on my manager's style of management. For every Pinella there is a Torre. Both styles have been proven to work.

How about this one Jeremy. The Sox have been one of the worst fielding teams, worst base running and generally one of the most fundamentally unsound teams in baseball for at least the last three years. Yet these areas are not a focus of spring training. Who is entrusted with setting the focus of spring training?

The Sox have had several years of odd pitching and in game substitutions. They also have a history of questionable starting lineups. Who is in charge of those areas?

The Sox BY ALL ACCOUNTS have had a worse record in each of the last 3 years than was predicted at the beginning of the season. The talent level has always been admired but the record has underwhelmed. Who is entrustes with helping a team reach its full potential?

Who stuck with Royce Clayton at shortstop in 2001, even though Valentin was the heart of a division champion at that position in 2000? Who stuck with Clayton and Ramirez in 2001 as their averages sapped the strenght of the lineup? Who again stuck with Clayton again in 2002 as he did a mirror image of 2001?

I could go on, but then my post would be as long as the average Jeremy post. Emotion will only inspire players for a short period of time. Manuel must go because he is deficient in the areas that make up the daily grind of a 162 game season.

And how do you not interpret his comments as a slam on the fans. "Have we ever received a good welcome." Even if it is said with a smile that is meant as a jab. It would be like me saying has Jeremy ever had a post that didn't run on for at least three long paragraphs. I say it with a smile and it is good natured ribbing, but I also mean it.

i sense great conviction in your post and your points aren't without merit but they have absolutely nothing to do with the point that i'm trying to make. my point is that even if you're correct, you're likely to flip flop on certain reasons as to why manuel is to be fired, or at a minimum, at least half of the other posters here in favor of firing manuel want to fire him for distinctling different, often conflicting reasons.

as for manuel's comment, first of all, if its "good natured" how is it a slam? the definition of a good natured joke is that the comment is not intended to be malicious and cause any harm to the target. additionally, i still fail to see how manuel and the team or the fans' view of the team (as opposed to the fans themselves) are the brunt of the joke. maybe manuel thinks the team deserves to be booed because of their poor performance. that wouldn't mean he's insulting the fans.

RKMeibalane
05-13-2003, 12:53 PM
Jerry Manuel's biggest problem has been timing. He is not wrong in voicing the opinion that the Sox need to play better baseball, but yesterday, after returning from a bad roadtrip, was not the time to say so. He certainly didn't need to make that comment in front of the media.

Furthermore, whenever it is appropriate for Manuel to say something to a player, he never does. When players make mistakes on the field, he never pulls them aside and talks with them. When Carlos Lee made all of those base-running mistakes last season, Manuel never benched him, and he never talked with him about working on fundamentals.

This is the problem. Manuel does the right thing at the wrong time. The Sox clearly are in need of a kick in the ass, but that does not mean it's appropriate to talk to the media and place blame squarely on the shoulders of the players. That doesn't work. Manuel needs to be more careful about what he says, whom he says it to, and when he says it. If he is unhappy with the production he's getting from certain hitters, then he needs to speak to them privately, away from the media.