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DrCrawdad
05-09-2003, 06:17 PM
Here are Carlos Zambrano's stats from today:

Zambrano (L, 3-3) 7.1 ip, 8 hits, 6 runs 6 earned runs, 2 bb, 6 SO, 2 hr, 3.65 era.

When Zambrano left the game both Stone and Chimp said that Zambrano pitched a good game. In the post game I heard Hughes and Slanto say basically the same thing.

If this were a Sox starter who allowed 6 earned runs including a Grand Slam to pee-wee Vina, would the Sox broadcasters be saying that it was a good start? As a Sox fan, would you call that a good start?

I bet if this were a Sox start we'd all be saying how our starter sucked today

MRKARNO
05-09-2003, 07:58 PM
If Garland pitched a game half as bad, sox fans'd still be on'em. Cubs fans are crazy, overoptimistic, overspoken, ignorant to the game and just gosh darn annoying

Vsahajpal
05-09-2003, 08:35 PM
It was a good start. He made one mistake, the inside fastball to Vina. Did you watch the game Dr. Crawdad? If so, I don't know how you can say otherwise. The stats were misleading, just as they were during Prior's last "quality" start, when he basically stunk.

Daver
05-09-2003, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
It was a good start. He made one mistake, the inside fastball to Vina. Did you watch the game Dr. Crawdad? If so, I don't know how you can say otherwise. The stats were misleading, just as they were during Prior's last "quality" start, when he basically stunk.

All numbers lie Vic,which is why I don't put as much stock in stats as so many others do.

Vsahajpal
05-09-2003, 08:38 PM
Actually, before you get all riled up, I should clarify. The start wasn't good because of the outcome. However he pitched very well.

DrCrawdad
05-09-2003, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
It was a good start. He made one mistake, the inside fastball to Vina. Did you watch the game Dr. Crawdad? If so, I don't know how you can say otherwise. The stats were misleading, just as they were during Prior's last "quality" start, when he basically stunk.

One mistake? Did you watch the game? What about loading the bases and then allowing a little dude like Vina take you deep? Then there were the smashes by JD Drew and Edmonds.

IMHO six runs to me is not a quality start. Saying it was one mistake is misleading to me.

Jon Garland had a quality start yesterday except for that three run bomb to Tejada...No I'd never say that.

And my point is that if that were a Sox start, I don't think there would be too many people here trying to sell it as a quality start.

DrCrawdad
05-09-2003, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
Actually, before you get all riled up, I should clarify. The start wasn't good because of the outcome. However he pitched very well.

I agree with everything except that last line. Two or three runs allowed and I think I'd agree with you but not six. And yes in the final analysis it's the outcome that matters.

RKMeibalane
05-09-2003, 08:47 PM
Given that he made "one mistake," I don't think it's fair to consider his start a bad one. However, I don't think he pitched "a good game," either. Even though four of the runs were the result of a grand slam, this does not mean those runs should be ignored. Steve Stone and Chip Caray have it all wrong. Zambrano may have done a solid job, with the exception of the grand slam, but the fact that he gave up the homerun at all leads me to believe that he didn't pitch as well as they thought. If he had been on his game, he would have retired Vina and avoided any major trouble.

Vsahajpal
05-09-2003, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
One mistake? Did you watch the game? What about loading the bases and then allowing a little dude like Vina take you deep? Then there were the smashes by JD Drew and Edmonds.

IMHO six runs to me is not a quality start. Saying it was one mistake is misleading to me.

Jon Garland had a quality start yesterday except for that three run bomb to Tejada...No I'd never say that.

And my point is that if that were a Sox start, I don't think there would be too many people here trying to sell it as a quality start.

It wasn't a quality start, he's charged with 6 earned runs.

Yes, one mistake, yes I did watch.

Regarding the slam, it was pretty lucky. First of all, Vina has sucked this year, secondly there was a strong wind blowing straight out (helped out Patterson too). But it was a stupid pitch. Zambrano easily retired Rolen and Martinez on two pitches. Renteria had a weak infield single, followed by a walk to Matheny on a 3-2 slider that caught the outside corner, then the pitcher Morris hit a high chopper over the mound for another infield single. That's just unlucky, Zambrano made his pitches, should've been out of the inning. Then he made his mistake, and Vina took care of it.

That was in the 2nd inning. After that, Zambrano rattled off 5 shutout innings versus one of the best hitting teams in the major leagues, scattering three hits, and striking out 4. That's a hell of a job right there.

Baker made a mistake leaving him in to face Morris with the bases loaded in the bottom of the seventh, I'd have pinch-hit with Bellhorn or O'Leary, probably cost the Cubs the ballgame. He grounded into a double play to end the rally.

The pitch to Drew wasn't a mistake, Drew's a notorious lowball hitter, Zambrano threw a 3-2 letter high fastball and Drew took care of it, tip your hat to him.

The final run was scored off Alfonseca, after Edmonds doubled with 1 out, thus it was charged too Z.

Zambrano did well, kept his team in the game, if he pitches like this every time out, he'll come out ahead more often than not. He was hitting his spots (with one exception), worked up, down, in, away, was hitting 99 with his four seamer, and consistently at 94-97 with it throughout his 7 1/3 IP.

The 2nd inning was the lone blip, IMO, and the Cards took advantage of a few lucky breaks, good teams do that.

DrCrawdad
05-09-2003, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
It wasn't a quality start, he's charged with 6 earned runs.

Yes, one mistake, yes I did watch.

...He was hitting his spots (with one exception), worked up, down, in, away, was hitting 99 with his four seamer, and consistently at 94-97 with it throughout his 7 1/3 IP.

The 2nd inning was the lone blip, IMO, and the Cards took advantage of a few lucky breaks, good teams do that.

99MPH? Are you sure? Of course the TV gun also had Fassero throwing in the low 90s.

Vsahajpal
05-09-2003, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
99MPH? Are you sure? Of course the TV gun also had Fassero throwing in the low 90s.


Yep, 99.

Fassero's been at 88-93 since Joe Kerrigan got his hands on him in Boston a few years ago. Moving from the starting rotation to the bullpen helped too.

balboner
05-09-2003, 10:38 PM
Did anyone see the tidbit in Baseball Weekly lately that said Cubs executives confirm the fact that Zambrano is 24, and not 21? I find it hillarious that Chip and Stone still say how young he is.

DrCrawdad
05-09-2003, 11:01 PM
Originally posted by balboner
Did anyone see the tidbit in Baseball Weekly lately that said Cubs executives confirm the fact that Zambrano is 24, and not 21? I find it hillarious that Chip and Stone still say how young he is.

24 is still young in my book. Of course there is a big difference between a 21 year old and 24.

IIRC Pineapple Face Juan Cruz also had a couple years tacked on as well.

T Dog
05-10-2003, 04:40 PM
Dr. Crawdad makes a good point. He wouldn't have pitched well if he had been pitching for the Sox. People on this board wouldn't have given him credit for pitching well if he had pitched that game for the Sox.

I listened to the game on the radio because apparently WGN doesn't televise baseball anymore. I didn't hear anyone questioning Dusty Baker not pinch hitting for the pitcher with the bases loaded and one out in the bottom of the fifth on the short end of a 4-3 game. I expected a pinch hitter to come up. You might have a good-hitting pitcher (who ended up hitting into a doubleplay), but there is a difference between a good-hitting pitcher and a real hitter off the bench who had a better chance of sparking a big inning. It looks like there is a double standard applied to Dusty Baker as well.

RKMeibalane
05-10-2003, 06:11 PM
This situation brings to light something that many of us on this board have been saying for years. Chicago White Sox fans' understanding of baseball is superior to that of Chicago Cubs fans.

Everyone knows that, for the moment, there are more Cubs fans than there are White Sox fans. However, many of these so-called Cubs fans have no idea what is actually transpiring on the baseball field, during a game. Most of them are drunk, or they are talking on their cell phones.

Sox fans, by contrast, are much more interested in the outcome of each game. We expect a great deal of our Sox, and so, we are often displeased when things do not go as well as we had hoped. Cubs fans look at us and accuse us of being frontrunners, but the truth is that we actually give a damn about the final outcome of each and every game. Cubs fans care only about getting hammered and uriniating in the middle of a sidewalk, somewhere.

A Cubs fan would be happy with Zambrono's line, because most Cubs fans don't know enough about the game of baseball to expect anything better out of their starting pitcher. Giving up a grand slam to a slap hitter like Fernando Vina would have set many Sox fans into a rage. Cubs fans didn't seem to react at all. Need I say more?

Vsahajpal
05-10-2003, 06:31 PM
Who's happy with his line? I said he pitched well, he threw the ball really well, made a mistake to Vina and with the wind blowing out, Vina's ball landed in the basket. Any other day, it doesn't even reach the warning track. To shutout the Cardinals lineup with the wind blowing out for 6 innings, that's pretty good.

DrCrawdad
05-11-2003, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
Who's happy with his line? I said he pitched well, he threw the ball really well, made a mistake to Vina and with the wind blowing out, Vina's ball landed in the basket. Any other day, it doesn't even reach the warning track. To shutout the Cardinals lineup with the wind blowing out for 6 innings, that's pretty good.

You're welcome to your opinion, even if you're glossing over a few things.

Both Woody and Wood pitched well today. Matt Clement has allowed 5 runs in each of his last 3 starts and 2 HRs per start. If Clement can hold the Cards down then the Cubs have a chance to win a series against a good team.

Vsahajpal
05-11-2003, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
You're welcome to your opinion, even if you're glossing over a few things.

Both Woody and Wood pitched well today. Matt Clement has allowed 5 runs in each of his last 3 starts and 2 HRs per start. If Clement can hold the Cards down then the Cubs have a chance to win a series against a good team.

The wind is supposed to be blowing out at 25-35 mph tomorrow, so Clement better be on his game inducing a lot of groundball outs.

What am I glossing over? Two infield hits, a missed 3rd strike call, and one mistake. Other than that, how did he not pitch well? I'd love to hear how 6 shutout innings versus a top ML team is a bad thing. I'd liken his start to a guy who lines out hard 4 times and goes 0-4, you don't want him to change a thing.

Just read that Zambrano's wife gave birth to their 2nd child the day before that start, I'm sure the adrenaline was kicking in, usually he's 91-95 with the fastball.

DrCrawdad
05-14-2003, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
..However (Zambrano) pitched very well.

I came across this bit on Yahoo previewing the Cubs vs. Brewers game today. Interesting to read what one, presumably non-biased, observer had to say about Zambrano's last start.

CUBS PROBABLE STARTER: Carlos Zambrano (3-3, 3.65 ERA). Zambrano is coming off perhaps his worst start of the season. On Friday, pitching a day after his wife gave birth to their second child, he allowed six runs and eight hits through 7 1-3 innings of 6-3 loss to the St. Louis Cardinals. The 21-year-old right-hander is 1-1 with a 4.73 ERA in three career games against the Brewers.

I watched the Sox game and only saw bits of the Cub game against those tough Brewers, but it seems that tonight Zambrano pitched a very good game.

Vsahajpal
05-15-2003, 01:06 AM
Results wise, of course it was his worst game of the year, generally he has done well so giving up 6 runs qualifies as his worst start. But he hadn't really performed as well as he could. He was grinding.

Baker's quotes after today's game:

"He had some electric stuff [Wednesday]," manager Dusty Baker said. "It was moving. He had real good control of the strike zone and he almost threw all sinkers. He's getting better. His last start was his best, and this one was even better than that one. He was fun to watch tonight."

Previously this year, he had been getting solid results (4 quality starts in 5), but wasn't at his best. Last week something clicked, movement was awesome, velo was awesome, location was good (save one infamous pitch), results weren't. Today was much the same, his stuff was flat filthy, he owned the strike zone, only difference was the result.

DrCrawdad
05-15-2003, 01:45 AM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
...Last week something clicked, movement was awesome, velo was awesome, location was good (save one infamous pitch), results weren't. Today was much the same, his stuff was flat filthy, he owned the strike zone, only difference was the result.

Never hurts to play the Brewers...

harwar
05-15-2003, 08:29 AM
One thing that i know is that cub fans that i know are ALREADY becoming unbearable to be around,and its only going to get worse.The only thing that would help is if the WHITE SOX start playing ball like they were expected to this season.