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CHISOXFAN13
05-09-2003, 10:21 AM
For those of you who haven't had a chance to read Cowley's column today, do yourself a favor and pick up a copy.

He blasts Williams throughout the piece.

I've always liked his stuff because he has the balls (that Garland lacks) to write the truth.

thecell
05-09-2003, 11:03 AM
Here's the link...
http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/091sd5.htm

NewyorkSoxFan
05-09-2003, 11:05 AM
WOW, He just got him with some scolding water!!! He didn't pull any punches at all. But if I know JR, he will stick with him, he always supports his guys no matter how stupid he knows they are. He always flies in the face of reason, and common sense.

Don't you just love being a WS fan?!!!


NYSF

Hangar18
05-09-2003, 11:13 AM
I just read it. Theres no Mention of Kenny Williams in this.
Are you sure you the Right Link was posted here?

thecell
05-09-2003, 11:18 AM
I just edited the link...sorry about that.

Hangar18
05-09-2003, 11:23 AM
Wait a Second here. This article by Joe Cowley starts out as saying that KW forced out Schueler. Didnt Ron "Turncoat" Schueler Step Down because we wanted to be with his Family?
Suddenly, hes secretly interviewing for the Orioles job, and now hes a Cub? man how his career has downward spiraled. There surely is a story here that were not talking about. Why did he Leave the Sox and now is a Cub?

thecell
05-09-2003, 11:27 AM
I get the feeling that KW was a pain in everyone's ass and was stepping on a lot of toes. I know people like that here at work. If I had to work with them directly everyday, I'd probably want to leave as well.

ChiSoxBobette
05-09-2003, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by CHISOXFAN13
For those of you who haven't had a chance to read Cowley's column today, do yourself a favor and pick up a copy.

He blasts Williams throughout the piece.

I've always liked his stuff because he has the balls (that Garland lacks) to write the truth.

If the article is on the money then maybe Mauel should call a team meeting and have a cardboard cutout of Williams there like they do in the movie Major League with that teams owner. Everytime the Sox win they cutoff one of Kennys appendages. Manuel could use Williams as a motivational tool because there seems to be quite a few Sox players who think Williams is a bonehead.
:angry: -WHITE SOX FANS
:?: -KENNY WILLIAMS(If Cowleys article is true then Williams is the new confused boy)

thecell
05-09-2003, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by ChiSoxBob
If the article is on the money then maybe Mauel should call a team meeting and have a cardboard cutout of Williams there like they do in the movie Major League with that teams owner. Everytime the Sox win they cutoff one of Kennys appendages. Manuel could use Williams as a motivational tool because there seems to be quite a few Sox players who think Williams is a bonehead.
:angry: -WHITE SOX FANS
:?: -KENNY WILLIAMS(If Cowleys article is true then Williams is the new confused boy)

YOU BEAT ME TO IT!!! I was just about to write that.

Viva Magglio
05-09-2003, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by ChiSoxBob
If the article is on the money then maybe Mauel should call a team meeting and have a cardboard cutout of Williams there like they do in the movie Major League with that teams owner. Everytime the Sox win they cutoff one of Kennys appendages. Manuel could use Williams as a motivational tool because there seems to be quite a few Sox players who think Williams is a bonehead.
:angry: -WHITE SOX FANS
:?: -KENNY WILLIAMS(If Cowleys article is true then Williams is the new confused boy)

So if the Sox go all the way, they get to look at a naked cardboard cutout of Kenny.

Hangar18
05-09-2003, 12:00 PM
Excellent. He tears into Kenny something good. I like how he ripped him for that "TRADE" a couple of years ago with the Dodgers (Berry vs. Barry) where Evans switched an older outfielder instead of the younger pitcher with the same name hahahahah to Kenny. By The way, someone in another THREAD said I was Wrong, Danny Evans didnt make this trade. HE DID. I knew I was right. wish I remembered who said that :) anyone care to fess up?

Mammoo
05-09-2003, 12:05 PM
...the players complaining about Williams are not getting the job done. If they love the Manager so much, why don't they re-dedicate themselves to make him look good (and themselves) by winning some games.

Williams has brought in some good star players (Alomar, Wells, Koch, Colon). Who among us complained when those deals were consummated? It's amazing how these players have underachieved!

It appears the biggest mistake KW made was poking around in the clubhouse and in so doing disrespecting Manuel.

If all of this unrest is true, the owner must step forward and take control. It will do no good to ream the team in September when the horse is long gone from the barn!

I'm not a big Cowley fan, but I give him high marks for stepping out and speaking his mind. Williams' reaction to this piece will be interesting.

Happy Mother's Day :gulp:

LuvSox
05-09-2003, 12:17 PM
That was a great article. What a doofus Williams is. I hate people like that. :angry:

dickallen15
05-09-2003, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Excellent. He tears into Kenny something good. I like how he ripped him for that "TRADE" a couple of years ago with the Dodgers (Berry vs. Barry) where Evans switched an older outfielder instead of the younger pitcher with the same name hahahahah to Kenny. By The way, someone in another THREAD said I was Wrong, Danny Evans didnt make this trade. HE DID. I knew I was right. wish I remembered who said that :) anyone care to fess up?


I said that, and I guarantee that both of you are wrong.

dickallen15
05-09-2003, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
I said that, and I guarantee that both of you are wrong.


Barry or Berry was acquired for Baldwin in July 2001. Evans was named GM 10/03/01

Hangar18
05-09-2003, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
Barry or Berry was acquired for Baldwin in July 2001. Evans was named GM 10/03/01

You calling me a Liar? hehe heh. this is interesting, because I remember another newspaper also giving Dan Evans "credit" for this trade. Why Do I remember this as Evans getting back at KW. WAIT, I believe Dan Evans was "special assistant" for the Dodgers by spring, but wasnt given the title Formally til October. THink were both right on this one. Can anyone else shed some light on this??

lowesox
05-09-2003, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
You calling me a Liar? hehe heh. this is interesting, because I remember another newspaper giving Dan Evans "credit" for this trade. Why Do I remember this as Evans getting back at KW

The article was a slam dunk. KW is a terrible GM. And the fish rots from the head down.

Isn't it funny how everybody's changing from fire Jerry Manuel, to fire KW. I gotta tell you, I'm jumping on that bandwagon. All this new information that's surfacing is reason enough for me to stick with Jerry a bit longer, and get rid of the ego.

gosox41
05-09-2003, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
So if the Sox go all the way, they get to look at a naked cardboard cutout of Kenny.

More like if the Sox go all the way, KW will be here for the next 10 years.

Bob

pudge
05-09-2003, 01:02 PM
I can't believe nobody has stepped up and questioned the journalistic integrity of this article. This article makes me mad as a former journalist because it is total tabloid garbage. Maybe everything Cowley says is true, but he can't back it up with anything. He can't even name ANY of his sources - not a single quote in the article is attributed to anyone. If you can't print your sources, you shouldn't be printing the quotes, let alone have an ENTIRE ARTICLE based on hearsay. This really makes me sick. I am not a KW supporter, and I've always thought he was a bit of a dofus, but this article is a disgrace. This is why I work in an office now and not as a journalist.

Just look at this opening paragraph:

"He influenced former Sox GM Ron Schueler and GM-in-waiting Danny Evans to leave the organization. His influence resulted in some of the worst trades in baseball over the past decade. He has influenced left-handed ace Mark Buehrle to count down the days until he can become a free agent and leave for St. Louis after 2006."

Is any of that true?? Can any of those statements be proven? No! They are all his opinion. But he writes them as facts.

Boo, boo, boo. My rant is over.

CHISOXFAN13
05-09-2003, 01:08 PM
As a formal journalist, you should know that a column is a space for the writer to express his/her views.

It's not a game result story or a notes section. He is backing up his own opinion with quotes from unnamed players. It's a column, relax.

thecell
05-09-2003, 01:16 PM
Should it matter who his sources are? He covers the White Sox so it's not like he's talking to players on the Newark Bears...

Hangar18
05-09-2003, 01:35 PM
This article was a little harsh and he couldve proven some points here and there, but byfar, its not as bad as Mike Kiley over at the Sun-Times. He has got to be one of the WORST Writers Ive seen in like 20 years. His unabashed love for the Cubs has become too apparent, a HUGE JOURNALISTIC NO-NO. What really makes him BAD, is how he takes a "fact", puts his own spin/association on it, and then takes it a step forward. In Journalism circles, these are the WORST kinds of theories to produce stories from because they can be Refuted very very quicklyand instantly look like Propoganda, which is different from a story. For instance, yesterday, Kiley couldnt contain himself
and wrote a quick piece Titled "Cabbies and Cubbies". very first statement was how Dusty Baker remarked how when he was with SF, he got into a cab and the driver was happy to see cub fans coming to stlouis. Kiley makes the assumption (another Journalistic NoNo) that Cab Drivers in StLouis Must Love Cub Fans for their devotion and spending. He doesnt note that perhaps, more Fans are in the area simply because of PROXIMITY, and not DEVOTION. ALSO, he gives the cubs pats on the back for having such a Bitter Rivalry (thats bs, thats nowhere near a "rivalry" as much as yankees vs. red sox) and warns Dusty to the nuances these games bring. Funny, but its only been in the last 10 yrs that ive heard of this "RIVALRY". I never considered this a rivalry before. the MEDIA again, is making this big. Imagine for instance, that im from Prague. I read the article. Ive never been to Chicago. 1st thing I think now, is that cub fans are hugely devoted and even stlouis people love them. TOTAL BS. Kiley is friggin horrible writer who is secretly a cub fan, and on the Cub Payroll.

hold2dibber
05-09-2003, 01:35 PM
The article is a complete hatchet job. It's all old news - he's slamming Williams for trades we've all been slamming him on for years. The article says nothing of the good moves he's made (I think Olivo for Bradword was great, Loaiza appears to have been a great pick up, despite Biddle's success in Montreal, criticizing the Colon trade seems absurd to me, etc). All of which makes me question his intergrity and potential bias. Which in turn makes some of the other stuff about Williams' meddling in the clubhouse (which is very disturbing) somewhat less credible, in my mind.

I think Williams has been, overall, a lousy GM. But I also think he's been pretty good lately. The team he has assembled is not fantastic, but there is a lot of talent there, way too much talent to be an under .500 team. As much as the players may dislike KW (if they do in fact dislike him), the fact is, they are underachieving. And that is NOT Williams' fault.

pudge
05-09-2003, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by CHISOXFAN13
As a formal journalist, you should know that a column is a space for the writer to express his/her views.

It's not a game result story or a notes section. He is backing up his own opinion with quotes from unnamed players. It's a column, relax.

Not to sound pompus, but I was trained at the best school there is for journalism... That column would have gotten a big, fat F. Dibber's comments above are dead on - Cowley's appraoch makes everything else he says in the article less credible. It's a piece of amateurish garbage. I don't doubt Cowley had some good inside info, he just shouldn't have resorted to an all-out blind bash job.

Iwritecode
05-09-2003, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
Barry or Berry was acquired for Baldwin in July 2001. Evans was named GM 10/03/01

OK, but when was KW named the White Sox GM?

IIRC, Dan Evans was NEVER a GM for the White Sox, therefore cannot be blamed for any "bad" trades.

KW was responsible for the Berry/Barry fiasco...

Iwritecode
05-09-2003, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
Barry or Berry was acquired for Baldwin in July 2001. Evans was named GM 10/03/01


Originally posted by Iwritecode
OK, but when was KW named the White Sox GM?

IIRC, Dan Evans was NEVER a GM for the White Sox, therefore cannot be blamed for any "bad" trades.

KW was responsible for the Berry/Barry fiasco...

To answer my own question, KW was named GM in October of 2000. Almost a full year before the trade of Baldwin...

Hangar18
05-09-2003, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
OK, but when was KW named the White Sox GM?

IIRC, Dan Evans was NEVER a GM for the White Sox, therefore cannot be blamed for any "bad" trades.

KW was responsible for the Berry/Barry fiasco...

Kenny Williams became GM right after the 2000 miracle season.
Danny Evans, left in disgust shortly after. He was actually with the cubs (I thought for sure, the cubs were lucked out again and found more things in the whitesox/mlb "dumpster") for a couple of months right afterwards, but then Left to be a "Special Asst" in LA. Dodgers were so desperate, they handed him the job. One of his First trades (because he knew the sox farm system well) was that Berry/Barry "trade". if im correct

Iwritecode
05-09-2003, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Kenny Williams became GM right after the 2000 miracle season.
Danny Evans, left in disgust shortly after. He was actually with the cubs (I thought for sure, the cubs were lucked out again and found more things in the whitesox/mlb "dumpster") for a couple of months right afterwards, but then Left to be a "Special Asst" in LA. Dodgers were so desperate, they handed him the job. One of his First trades (because he knew the sox farm system well) was that Berry/Barry "trade". if im correct

Evans didn't become the Dodgers GM until after the trade...

dickallen15
05-09-2003, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
To answer my own question, KW was named GM in October of 2000. Almost a full year before the trade of Baldwin...


Evans was named GM of the Dodgers 10/03/01. Dave Wallace was the interm GM of the Dodgers when the Baldwin , Barry/Berry fiasco occurred.

progers0826
05-09-2003, 02:12 PM
Yes, the chronology is a little misleading. The Dodgers were left without a GM when Kevin Malone was forced to resign early in the 2001 season, in part because of an encounter with a fan in the stands at San Diego. Danny had been working for the Cubs but left to help Dave Wallace run the team, with no promise of a full-time job. He was instrumental in the Baldwin trade. He did land the full-time position after that season. Hope that clears it up.

baggio202
05-09-2003, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Excellent. He tears into Kenny something good. I like how he ripped him for that "TRADE" a couple of years ago with the Dodgers (Berry vs. Barry) where Evans switched an older outfielder instead of the younger pitcher with the same name hahahahah to Kenny. By The way, someone in another THREAD said I was Wrong, Danny Evans didnt make this trade. HE DID. I knew I was right. wish I remembered who said that :) anyone care to fess up?

danny evans was the asst GM when that trade was made..that could be the confussion..but make no bones about it..it was danny that pulled the wool over kenny's eyes..not doubt to send a message to jerry that he picked the wrong guy...

as for williams..its about time the truth came out...i believe that this also vindicates the sources that said kenny is on the way out..players and other members of the sox organization and now ripping him apart..they obviously feel he is no longer a threat to them

Hangar18
05-09-2003, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by baggio202
danny evans was the asst GM when that trade was made..that could be the confussion..but make no bones about it..it was danny that pulled the wool over kenny's eyes..not doubt to send a message to jerry that he picked the wrong guy...

as for williams..its about time the truth came out...i believe that this also vindicates the sources that said kenny is on the way out..players and other members of the sox organization and now ripping him apart..they obviously feel he is no longer a threat to them

Finally .....Vindication!

Iwritecode
05-09-2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Finally .....Vindication!

OK, I think I understand now. I thought you were trying to say that it was Evans that screwed up. It was KW that screwed up with Evans as the one doing the screwing...


I guess KW is the bunny and Kermit is Evans...
:kermit

Lip Man 1
05-09-2003, 02:31 PM
Those calling for Jerry Reinsdorf to step in and solve the internal problems will be waiting longer then Sox fans for a pennent.

Uncle Jerry does not do this, just remember the Bulls.

Personally I hope both Williams and Manuel go because it's simply not working. You roll the dice and try someone else (hopefully two guys with experience in those positions at the highest level)

Lip

baggio202
05-09-2003, 02:38 PM
as for cowley's integrity..he is the one reporter in this town i respect..his coulmn's have always been fair to the sox and he is the one reporter most sox player slike to talk to...i think of joe as kind of a sportswriter/fan instead of just a sportswriter..for him to write this piece he must have just had enough of kenny williams..

if this was marriottti then questioning the motives and integrity would be the right thing to do..but checkthe archieves and read joe's stuff..he is very credable imo

pudge
05-09-2003, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by baggio202
as for cowley's integrity..he is the one reporter in this town i respect..his coulmn's have always been fair to the sox and he is the one reporter most sox player slike to talk to...i think of joe as kind of a sportswriter/fan instead of just a sportswriter..for him to write this piece he must have just had enough of kenny williams..

if this was marriottti then questioning the motives and integrity would be the right thing to do..but checkthe archieves and read joe's stuff..he is very credable imo

I don't doubt you are correct... which makes it all the more unfortunate he felt the need to write this column. It makes it sound like he's gotten a little too buddy-buddy with the players on this issue. I'm sure KW is a pain in the butt, and Cowley probably got upset when he saw KW listed as an "influential" sports minority, but Cowley should have put a little more effort and thought into this particular column.

Hangar18
05-09-2003, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by pudge
I don't doubt you are correct... which makes it all the more unfortunate he felt the need to write this column. It makes it sound like he's gotten a little too buddy-buddy with the players on this issue. I'm sure KW is a pain in the butt, and Cowley probably got upset when he saw KW listed as an "influential" sports minority, but Cowley should have put a little more effort and thought into this particular column.

Joe Cowley "Kylied" it up. as a Journalist, you never want to "Kylie" a story. Brutal.

cheeses_h_rice
05-09-2003, 03:24 PM
I thought Cowley gave KW very little credit for a productive offseason.

I still back the Colon for Liefer & Biddle trade, and no mention was made of Esteban Loaiza's acquisition, which, if you look at it a certain way, is probably the only thing keeping the Sox "in" the Central race.

That said, I think it's becoming obvious that the Sox need some new blood at both the GM and Manager positions. The sooner the better, IMO.

MarkEdward
05-09-2003, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Not to sound pompus, but I was trained at the best school there is for journalism...

You went to Mizzou?

Visited UM about a month ago. Beautiful campus. Much too big for me, though.

pudge
05-09-2003, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
You went to Mizzou?

Visited UM about a month ago. Beautiful campus. Much too big for me, though.

Well, okay, maybe the second best, although you'd get a good debate on that... :)

hold2dibber
05-09-2003, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
You roll the dice and try someone else (hopefully two guys with experience in those positions at the highest leve)

Lip

Deeppink for pipe dreams, Lip.

MarkEdward
05-09-2003, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Well, okay, maybe the second best, although you'd get a good debate on that... :)

Where'd you go?

GASHWOUND
05-09-2003, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by CHISOXFAN13
For those of you who haven't had a chance to read Cowley's column today, do yourself a favor and pick up a copy.

He blasts Williams throughout the piece.

I've always liked his stuff because he has the balls (that Garland lacks) to write the truth.

It's about f'n time..I don't want to say that an article written by a beat writer is death for a GM, but this may be the nail in the coffin for the man who invented the EGO, Kenny "Dumbass" williams
You got players on this team that don't respect Kenny one damn bit and not to sound obvious..but that's not good.
What the scene was like this morning when one of Williams whipping boy spy's brought this to the attention of Kenny...The blank stare of disgrace and the notion that nobody on the club respects or even likes him for that matter.
I'm still not a fan of Jerry, and would like him ousted too, but thank goodness 'ole Kenny finally knows the truth of his unpopularity(as if he didn't already know this)
Just counting down the days of his demise as GM..and it can't come soon enough..

Really, I'm betting once the blanket of Kenny is off the players minds then they may play better as a club..may even be more loose...if not, then maybe Jerry will get the boot too..

i_luv_jgarland
05-11-2003, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by CHISOXFAN13

I've always liked his stuff because he has the balls (that Garland lacks) to write the truth.

It's not the BALLS that Garland is missing... it's the STRIKES!
(I still love you Jonny)
:D: